Hello, I am playing in a few games that are transitioning from 2014 to 2024 rules. One of the changes we are not clear about is the new AOE wording emanation and how it affects other abilities or spells that do not use any of these terms.
For example, flaming sphere, hail of thorns and wildfire druid spirit's fiery teleportation all use sentences such as "each creature within 5 feet of it", "within 5 feet of the sphere" and "each willing creature of your choice within 5 feet of it" to describe the affected area.
My first question is, which grids are considered within 5 feet? For emanation, it is everything around minus the origin (except stated otherwise). For the above mentioned cases, with "o" being the origin and "x" the affected grids, is it:
Thank you for the graphs and links, they are really helpful. So the new emanation is similar to the sphere area but minus the origin right?
And the "within x feet" abilities and spells like flaming sphere and fiery teleportation, do they cover the same area as the ice knife graph you mentioned before here? Are these the same for 2024 rules?
For Earth tremor, since it is "within 10 feet", shouldn't the four corners be excluded since they are 15 feet (first diagonal is 5 feet, second diagonal is 10 feet)?
This is how we do it at my table. Note that we don't use Roll20, so I don't know how this is implemented there, sorry :(
If the point of origin is a creature, that creature occupies the entire square, and the range is calculated from the edge of its tile outwards. Here are some examples:
- Spirit Guardians (15-ft radius):
- Burning Hands (15-ft cone):
- Thunderwave (15-foot cube): - -
- Earth tremor (10 ft):
- Ice Knife (taking into acount the last erratum, 5 ft):
If the point of origin is a point in space, then the drawing from Wysperra is how we do it. So, for example:
- Moonbean (5-ft radius):
- Web (20-ft cube):
About the number of affected targets, we follow the rules in XGtE (p. 86, Areas of Effect on a Grid):
If any part of a square is under the template, that square is included in the area of effect. If a creature's miniature is in an affected square, that creature is in the area. Being adjacent to the edge of the template isn't enough for a square to be included in the area of effect; the square must be entirely or partly covered by the template.
And the "within x feet" abilities and spells like flaming sphere and fiery teleportation, do they cover the same area as the ice knife graph you mentioned before here? Are these the same for 2024 rules?
Yes, it should be the same as in the 2014 rules.
For Earth tremor, since it is "within 10 feet", shouldn't the four corners be excluded since they are 15 feet (first diagonal is 5 feet, second diagonal is 10 feet)?
If any part of a square is under the template, that square is included in the area of effect. If a creature's miniature is in an affected square, that creature is in the area. Being adjacent to the edge of the template isn't enough for a square to be included in the area of effect; the square must be entirely or partly covered by the template.
When Playing on a Grid, each square represents 5 feet and you determine the range between two things by counting squares from a square adjacent to one of them and stop counting in the space of the other one. So when an effect affect target(s) within 5/10/15 feet of its origin for example, it's within 1/2/3 squares of it. I find it's a quick way to establish range for most effects in the game.
Sorry but I don't think I understand what "counting squares from a square adjacent to one of them and stop counting in the space of the other one" means. Would you mind drawing it out to help me visualize it?
Yes, that first one is the default way to measure distance in 5E (both 2024 and 2014). That's why when you play on a grid all circles are squares (e.g. fireball=20 ft radius sphere= 40 ft cube)
I use the DMG(2014) with the 5/10 diagonal method. Every diagonal cost 5 on the first diagonal and 10 for the second diagonal regardless of when the diagonal is attempted to be taken, and there must be enough distance left to cover the move.
It takes a bit of practice to get a general idea of how a circular area in a grid block pattern looks like, but the bigger the area the better the edge represents the true distance.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
Yes, that first one is the default way to measure distance in 5E (both 2024 and 2014). That's why when you play on a grid all circles are squares (e.g. fireball=20 ft radius sphere= 40 ft cube)
I think it's worth mentioning that the new DMG 2024 now includes all the Area of Effect shapes when using a grid.
An area of effect must be translated onto squares or hexes to determine which potential targets are in the area. If the area has a point of origin, choose an intersection of squares or hexes to be the point of origin, then follow its rules as normal. If an area of effect covers at least half a square or hex, the entire square or hex is affected.
The area of effect of a spell, monster ability, or other feature must be translated onto squares or hexes to determine which potential targets are in the area and which aren’t.
Choose an intersection of squares or hexes as the point of origin of an area of effect, then follow its rules as normal. If an area of effect is circular and covers at least half a square, it affects that square.
So the number of affected squares can vary depending on the DMG edition and shape, or whether you're using the Template or Token method detailed in XGtE.
Yes, that first one is the default way to measure distance in 5E (both 2024 and 2014). That's why when you play on a grid all circles are squares (e.g. fireball=20 ft radius sphere= 40 ft cube)
No, that is not the case in either 2014 or 2024. Even playing on a grid, area of effects are the same shape, with the only exception being Emanations, and even then only if you don't use euclidean distancing, and rule as though the diagonal distance of a square is equal to the lateral distance, rather than being roughly 1.4x longer. Which is the default way to play on a grid, but still. Spheres are still spheres, and in 2024 rules you simply determine a creature is affected if at least half of the square (or hex) they occupy is included in an area of effect.
If you do change spheres to be cubes in the way you suggest, you're increasing the size of their area of effect by over 20%. Fairly OP.
For emanations, if you play on a square grid - and don't use euclidean distancing - then they do become squares, because that's how they measure if you consider the diagonal distance and lateral distance to be the same. If you do use euclidean distancing, they are still spheres.
I use the DMG(2014) with the 5/10 diagonal method. Every diagonal cost 5 on the first diagonal and 10 for the second diagonal regardless of when the diagonal is attempted to be taken, and there must be enough distance left to cover the move.
It takes a bit of practice to get a general idea of how a circular area in a grid block pattern looks like, but the bigger the area the better the edge represents the true distance.
I use this method as well. Pythagoras exists in my games. It's not very difficult once you're used to it and it's just a more realistic measure of distance.
I use the DMG(2014) with the 5/10 diagonal method. Every diagonal cost 5 on the first diagonal and 10 for the second diagonal regardless of when the diagonal is attempted to be taken, and there must be enough distance left to cover the move.
It takes a bit of practice to get a general idea of how a circular area in a grid block pattern looks like, but the bigger the area the better the edge represents the true distance.
I use this method as well. Pythagoras exists in my games. It's not very difficult once you're used to it and it's just a more realistic measure of distance.
Taxicab distance with an extra step for diagonal movement, gives a rough estimate that can be refined to a reasonable level.
Subdivide a 5ft square into 1ft subsquares and as long as 13/25 subsquares are in the area, the entire 5ft square is valid.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
Oh nice, I think this will be very useful for determining the cone spells and abilities' aoe as well, since it always takes us some time to check if those standing just at the edge are affected or not
Hello, I am playing in a few games that are transitioning from 2014 to 2024 rules. One of the changes we are not clear about is the new AOE wording emanation and how it affects other abilities or spells that do not use any of these terms.
For example, flaming sphere, hail of thorns and wildfire druid spirit's fiery teleportation all use sentences such as "each creature within 5 feet of it", "within 5 feet of the sphere" and "each willing creature of your choice within 5 feet of it" to describe the affected area.
My first question is, which grids are considered within 5 feet? For emanation, it is everything around minus the origin (except stated otherwise). For the above mentioned cases, with "o" being the origin and "x" the affected grids, is it:
xxx x
xox or xox
xxx x
and how about "within 10 feet" like conjure animals? is it 21 grids, like the picture shown in a post here (https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/5e-ranger-hunter-volley-max-targets-within-10-feet-of-a-point-you-can-see.746890/)?
Are they unchanged from 2014?
For Sphere is as always: [...] extends in straight lines from a point of origin outward in all directions. [...]
And an Emanation (the new type of area) extends from the edge of its origin instead of from a point in space.
I've drawn some examples in other threads if they help. For example:
Other threads:
Thank you for the graphs and links, they are really helpful. So the new emanation is similar to the sphere area but minus the origin right?
And the "within x feet" abilities and spells like flaming sphere and fiery teleportation, do they cover the same area as the ice knife graph you mentioned before here? Are these the same for 2024 rules?
For Earth tremor, since it is "within 10 feet", shouldn't the four corners be excluded since they are 15 feet (first diagonal is 5 feet, second diagonal is 10 feet)?
That's how I see it, yes. In one of the linked threads, David also shared a useful POV.
Yes, it should be the same as in the 2014 rules.
Mmm. It depends on whether you use that kind of rule. I use the rules from XGtE (p. 86, see below) and I don't use the optional rule in the DMG about diagonals on a grid, where range is measured differently.
When Playing on a Grid, each square represents 5 feet and you determine the range between two things by counting squares from a square adjacent to one of them and stop counting in the space of the other one. So when an effect affect target(s) within 5/10/15 feet of its origin for example, it's within 1/2/3 squares of it. I find it's a quick way to establish range for most effects in the game.
Sorry but I don't think I understand what "counting squares from a square adjacent to one of them and stop counting in the space of the other one" means. Would you mind drawing it out to help me visualize it?
I am not good at drawing ;) But looking back at images posted above, if you take any square,
All squares next to it are within 1 squares of it. (or within 5 feet if you prefer)
All squares 2 rows around it are within 2 squares of it. (or within 10 feet if you prefer)
All squares 3 rows around it are within 3 squares of it. (or within 15 feet if you prefer)
And so on.
Maybe this helps with the explanations:
Thank you guys for explaining.
Referring to the three cases above, do you use the first one in 2024?
Yeah, it's the easy one. The third one would be using the optional rule in the DMG about diagonals on a grid.
Yes it just simpler to adjudicate this way.
Yes, that first one is the default way to measure distance in 5E (both 2024 and 2014). That's why when you play on a grid all circles are squares (e.g. fireball=20 ft radius sphere= 40 ft cube)
I use the DMG(2014) with the 5/10 diagonal method. Every diagonal cost 5 on the first diagonal and 10 for the second diagonal regardless of when the diagonal is attempted to be taken, and there must be enough distance left to cover the move.
It takes a bit of practice to get a general idea of how a circular area in a grid block pattern looks like, but the bigger the area the better the edge represents the true distance.
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
I think it's worth mentioning that the new DMG 2024 now includes all the Area of Effect shapes when using a grid.
And the 2014 DMG only mentioned circular AoEs:
So the number of affected squares can vary depending on the DMG edition and shape, or whether you're using the Template or Token method detailed in XGtE.
No, that is not the case in either 2014 or 2024. Even playing on a grid, area of effects are the same shape, with the only exception being Emanations, and even then only if you don't use euclidean distancing, and rule as though the diagonal distance of a square is equal to the lateral distance, rather than being roughly 1.4x longer. Which is the default way to play on a grid, but still.
Spheres are still spheres, and in 2024 rules you simply determine a creature is affected if at least half of the square (or hex) they occupy is included in an area of effect.
If you do change spheres to be cubes in the way you suggest, you're increasing the size of their area of effect by over 20%. Fairly OP.
For emanations, if you play on a square grid - and don't use euclidean distancing - then they do become squares, because that's how they measure if you consider the diagonal distance and lateral distance to be the same. If you do use euclidean distancing, they are still spheres.
I use this method as well. Pythagoras exists in my games. It's not very difficult once you're used to it and it's just a more realistic measure of distance.
Taxicab distance with an extra step for diagonal movement, gives a rough estimate that can be refined to a reasonable level.
Subdivide a 5ft square into 1ft subsquares and as long as 13/25 subsquares are in the area, the entire 5ft square is valid.
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
Oh nice, I think this will be very useful for determining the cone spells and abilities' aoe as well, since it always takes us some time to check if those standing just at the edge are affected or not