In the 2014 version of the game it was made pretty clear that you could still sneak around Blightsight and get a jump on such creatures (Being Passive Perception vs Stealth), but with the changes to the hide action, and the Invisible Condition, I'm struggling with the rules on Rouges and Slimes.
Example: Rouge takes the hide action behind a pillar (Total Cover). Passes the DC 15 check easily and tries to sneak up on the slime, but, due to the clauses of invisibility and blindsight, the slime instantly sees the Rouge and thus the Rouge is no longer invisible, and does not get advantage for the attacks affected part of invisibility, and no Sneak Attack damage is dealt.
I understand that you could go outside the slimes blindsight range and shoot at it, or have an ally next to it, but I'm wondering if this is just RAW not possible for Rouges in melee anymore. Not a huge deal for a slime, but thinking ahead to other, larger creatures that still have Blindsight. As I read it, you could no longer get a "Surprise sneak attack" on a dragon.
I do recognize there is still a greater game of Sneak vs Passive Perception that can still apply for encounters like a breaking and entering that does not require invisibility. This question is directed specifically at the surprise/advantage/sneak attack damage that use to come from the hidden mechanics.
In the 2014 version of the game it was made pretty clear that you could still sneak around Blightsight and get a jump on such creatures (Being Passive Perception vs Stealth), but with the changes to the hide action, and the Invisible Condition, I'm struggling with the rules on Rouges and Slimes. [...]
I'd say, under the 2014 rules, Blindsight was able to detect invisible and hidden creatures that weren't behind Total Cover.
And the same with the 2024 rules::
If you have Blindsight, you can see within a specific range without relying on physical sight. Within that range, you can see anything that isn’t behind Total Cover even if you have the Blinded condition or are in Darkness. Moreover, in that range, you can see something that has the Invisible condition.
Correct, but that is not what I am trying to puzzle out or argue. In 2014 your hidden status was not based on sight alone and invisibility, but rather passive perception vs stealth. Which meant that you could still be "Unseen" when attacking and get advantage and thus sneak attack. I don't have the sauce on hand, but that is something I'm pretty sure Jeremy Crawford pointed out himself in ye-old-version.
Correct, but that is not what I am trying to puzzle out or argue. In 2014 your hidden status was not based on sight alone and invisibility, but rather passive perception vs stealth. Which meant that you could still be "Unseen" when attacking and get advantage and thus sneak attack.
Yeah, depending on the situation, that was possible.
PS. I thought your post was about the old/new Blindsight against the Invisible condition, sorry if I misunderstood you.
EDIT: there are some threads discussing the new Hiding & Invisible condition rules. Maybe you can find something useful for your games or ruling within them:
Example: Rouge takes the hide action behind a pillar (Total Cover). Passes the DC 15 check easily and tries to sneak up on the slime, but, due to the clauses of invisibility and blindsight, the slime instantly sees the Rouge and thus the Rouge is no longer invisible, and does not get advantage for the attacks affected part of invisibility, and no Sneak Attack damage is dealt.
That's correct. I'll let a rogue attempt to hide behind cover and even snipe a ranged attack from cover, but once they step out into the open and are seen, they are no longer hidden.
Correct, but that is not what I am trying to puzzle out or argue. In 2014 your hidden status was not based on sight alone and invisibility, but rather passive perception vs stealth. Which meant that you could still be "Unseen" when attacking and get advantage and thus sneak attack.
That's not really how the 2014 rules worked -- the actual requirements are
"The DM decides when circumstances are appropriate for hiding."
"You can’t hide from a creature that can see you clearly".
"In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around, so if you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it usually sees you. However, under certain circumstances, the DM might allow you to stay hidden as you approach a creature that is distracted, allowing you to gain advantage on an attack roll before you are seen."
If stealth is possible, it's a check on stealth vs passive perception.
Most of the time, (2) would cause blindsight to defeat stealth in 2014, because blindsight is unaffected by concealment and thus always clearly sees a creature that lacks cover. The big differences are
In 2014, you could probably hide from blindsight if you had less than total cover (how much is required is unspecified). In 2024 you can't.
In 2024, what happens when you "come out of hiding" is undefined when the target lacks a means of seeing invisible (do you lose your invisible status? Multiple threads have failed to resolve that); if the target has blindsight, see invisibility, or truesight, you are automatically revealed once you no longer have full cover or total concealment.
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In the 2014 version of the game it was made pretty clear that you could still sneak around Blightsight and get a jump on such creatures (Being Passive Perception vs Stealth), but with the changes to the hide action, and the Invisible Condition, I'm struggling with the rules on Rouges and Slimes.
Example: Rouge takes the hide action behind a pillar (Total Cover). Passes the DC 15 check easily and tries to sneak up on the slime, but, due to the clauses of invisibility and blindsight, the slime instantly sees the Rouge and thus the Rouge is no longer invisible, and does not get advantage for the attacks affected part of invisibility, and no Sneak Attack damage is dealt.
I understand that you could go outside the slimes blindsight range and shoot at it, or have an ally next to it, but I'm wondering if this is just RAW not possible for Rouges in melee anymore. Not a huge deal for a slime, but thinking ahead to other, larger creatures that still have Blindsight. As I read it, you could no longer get a "Surprise sneak attack" on a dragon.
I do recognize there is still a greater game of Sneak vs Passive Perception that can still apply for encounters like a breaking and entering that does not require invisibility. This question is directed specifically at the surprise/advantage/sneak attack damage that use to come from the hidden mechanics.
I'd say, under the 2014 rules, Blindsight was able to detect invisible and hidden creatures that weren't behind Total Cover.
And the same with the 2024 rules::
Correct, but that is not what I am trying to puzzle out or argue. In 2014 your hidden status was not based on sight alone and invisibility, but rather passive perception vs stealth. Which meant that you could still be "Unseen" when attacking and get advantage and thus sneak attack. I don't have the sauce on hand, but that is something I'm pretty sure Jeremy Crawford pointed out himself in ye-old-version.
Yeah, depending on the situation, that was possible.
From time to time, I revisit this thread: Stealth advice from Jeremy Crawford - Rules & Game Mechanics
PS. I thought your post was about the old/new Blindsight against the Invisible condition, sorry if I misunderstood you.
EDIT: there are some threads discussing the new Hiding & Invisible condition rules. Maybe you can find something useful for your games or ruling within them:
That's correct. I'll let a rogue attempt to hide behind cover and even snipe a ranged attack from cover, but once they step out into the open and are seen, they are no longer hidden.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
That's not really how the 2014 rules worked -- the actual requirements are
Most of the time, (2) would cause blindsight to defeat stealth in 2014, because blindsight is unaffected by concealment and thus always clearly sees a creature that lacks cover. The big differences are