But now the fourth benefit of the 2024 Sharpshooter rules state: "Long Shots. Attacking at long range doesn’t impose Disadvantage on your attack rolls with Ranged weapons."
It explicitly names "Ranged weapons," not "ranged weapon attack rolls". So does that now exclude all thrown melee weapons, like Daggers, Handaxes, Javelins, Light Hammers, Spears & Tridents from the Longshot benefit??
This seems strange since Crawford specifically and officially claimed otherwise in the past. Could this have been unintentional?
Yes, according to RAW, the old Sharpshooter applied to thrown weapons and the new one doesn't. The change to the language seems very intentional.
One of the things you have to keep in mind Crawford's public communications in general is that he almost never acknowledges that it's even possible that the Rules As Written might be different from the Rules As Intended, except in cases where they've already made a decision to change something in future printings. If you ask him for an answer, you will pretty much always get a RAW answer, even if you explicitly ask for a RAI answer. This may be for legal reasons, I don't know. But my point is: it's much more likely that the 2014 version wasn't intended to work with thrown weapons (even though by RAW it does) and that's why they changed it in 2024.
Logically, a ranged weapon has a chance to travel accurately out to it's max distance/range. But a weapon that is thrown is probably ineffective (damage & accuracy) at that max range. A ranged weapon is more aerodynamic and designed that the sharp end will always be the 1st part that makes contact. Axe/dagger/etc. has the sharp end on only a portion of the weapon, so any rotation of that weapon can result in a thump, not actual penetration.
Crawford's feats were never official, and Sharpshooter never made its way into the SAC.
This comes down to a quirk in language. A "ranged weapon attack roll" can be either an attack roll with a ranged weapon or a ranged attack made with a weapon; depending on interpretation. Some monsters had a "Melee or Ranged Weapon Attack" in their stat block, though the general rules for Attack Rolls in the 2014 PH read as follows.
Modifiers to the Roll
When a character makes an attack roll, the two most common modifiers to the roll are an ability modifier and the character’s proficiency bonus. When a monster makes an attack roll, it uses whatever modifier is provided in its stat block.
Ability Modifier. The ability modifier used for a melee weapon attack is Strength, and the ability modifier used for a ranged weapon attack is Dexterity. Weapons that have the finesse or thrown property break this rule.
This explanation poins to "ranged weapon attack" being made with Dexterity, so we're talking about Ranged weapons. This is a reinforcement of the description for weapons in the Equipment chapter.
Weapons
Your class grants proficiency in certain weapons, reflecting both the class’s focus and the tools you are most likely to use. Whether you favor a longsword or a longbow, your weapon and your ability to wield it effectively can mean the difference between life and death while adventuring.
The Weapons table shows the most common weapons used in the worlds of D&D, their price and weight, the damage they deal when they hit, and any special properties they possess. Every weapon is classified as either melee or ranged. A melee weapon is used to attack a target within 5 feet of you, whereas a ranged weapon is used to attack a target at a distance.
The succeeding tables also break down melee and ranged weapons, with the Thrown property used to distinguish (in most cases) melee weapons that can also be used for ranged attacks. As written, the feat was only ever intended to work with ranged weapons; not simply any weapon capable of a ranged attack.
TL;DR
The feat wasn't nerfed so much as language was clarified.
Yes, according to RAW, the old Sharpshooter applied to thrown weapons and the new one doesn't. The change to the language seems very intentional.
One of the things you have to keep in mind Crawford's public communications in general is that he almost never acknowledges that it's even possible that the Rules As Written might be different from the Rules As Intended, except in cases where they've already made a decision to change something in future printings. If you ask him for an answer, you will pretty much always get a RAW answer, even if you explicitly ask for a RAI answer. This may be for legal reasons, I don't know. But my point is: it's much more likely that the 2014 version wasn't intended to work with thrown weapons (even though by RAW it does) and that's why they changed it in 2024.
Ignoring JC's comments ... here are some rules from the 2024 PHB for consideration.
TLDR; Thrown daggers are considered Ranged weapons and Sharpshooter effects DO apply in the 2024 rules.
Under the Weapons section - here is the definition of Melee and Ranged weapons.
"Melee or Ranged. A weapon is classified as either Melee or Ranged. A Melee weapon is used to attack a target within 5 feet, whereas a Ranged weapon is used to attack at a greater distance."
A weapon used to attack at a greater distance is a Ranged weapon. A dagger used to attack at a greater distances IS a Ranged weapon.
We also have under the Range property:
"Range
A Range weapon has a range in parentheses after the Ammunition or Thrown property."
A Range weapon includes weapons with the Ammunition or Thrown property - which includes daggers.
We then have the Thrown property:
"Thrown
If a weapon has the Thrown property, you can throw the weapon to make a ranged attack, and you can draw that weapon as part of the attack. If the weapon is a Melee weapon, use the same ability modifier for the attack and damage rolls that you use for a melee attack with that weapon."
The weapon can be thrown to make a ranged attack but if the weapon is classified as a Melee weapon in the table - you use the same ability modifier that you would use for a melee attack with that weapon.
The table divides weapons into Melee and Ranged weapons - this is because it is wasteful to list weapons in two locations if they have the Thrown property. Based on the first two rules cited above Thrown weapons ARE considered Ranged weapons in the rules.
Firing in Melee. Being within 5 feet of an enemy doesn’t impose Disadvantage on your attack rolls with Ranged weapons.
Long Shots. Attacking at long range doesn’t impose Disadvantage on your attack rolls with Ranged weapons."
All of these bullet points should apply to Thrown weapons (including daggers) since the rules consider weapons that are used to attack at greater distances and which include a Range specification in the table to BE Ranged weapons when used in that context.
Crawford's feats were never official, and Sharpshooter never made its way into the SAC.
This comes down to a quirk in language. A "ranged weapon attack roll" can be either an attack roll with a ranged weapon or a ranged attack made with a weapon; depending on interpretation. Some monsters had a "Melee or Ranged Weapon Attack" in their stat block, though the general rules for Attack Rolls in the 2014 PH read as follows.
Modifiers to the Roll
When a character makes an attack roll, the two most common modifiers to the roll are an ability modifier and the character’s proficiency bonus. When a monster makes an attack roll, it uses whatever modifier is provided in its stat block.
Ability Modifier. The ability modifier used for a melee weapon attack is Strength, and the ability modifier used for a ranged weapon attack is Dexterity. Weapons that have the finesse or thrown property break this rule.
This explanation poins to "ranged weapon attack" being made with Dexterity, so we're talking about Ranged weapons. This is a reinforcement of the description for weapons in the Equipment chapter.
Weapons
Your class grants proficiency in certain weapons, reflecting both the class’s focus and the tools you are most likely to use. Whether you favor a longsword or a longbow, your weapon and your ability to wield it effectively can mean the difference between life and death while adventuring.
The Weapons table shows the most common weapons used in the worlds of D&D, their price and weight, the damage they deal when they hit, and any special properties they possess. Every weapon is classified as either melee or ranged. A melee weapon is used to attack a target within 5 feet of you, whereas a ranged weapon is used to attack a target at a distance.
The succeeding tables also break down melee and ranged weapons, with the Thrown property used to distinguish (in most cases) melee weapons that can also be used for ranged attacks. As written, the feat was only ever intended to work with ranged weapons; not simply any weapon capable of a ranged attack.
TL;DR
The feat wasn't nerfed so much as language was clarified.
Except - see my post above -
The rules consider any weapon used to attack at a distance as a Ranged weapon.
"Melee or Ranged. A weapon is classified as either Melee or Ranged. A Melee weapon is used to attack a target within 5 feet, whereas a Ranged weapon is used to attack at a greater distance."
A weapon used to attack at a greater distance is a Ranged weapon. A dagger used to attack at a greater distances IS a Ranged weapon.
We also have under the Range property:
"Range
A Range weapon has a range in parentheses after the Ammunition or Thrown property."
Range weapons have the Ammunition or Thrown property.
Daggers ARE considered Ranged weapons when Thrown.
.. at least that is what the rules appear to say ..
Under the Weapons section - here is the definition of Melee and Ranged weapons.
"Melee or Ranged. A weapon is classified as either Melee or Ranged. A Melee weapon is used to attack a target within 5 feet, whereas a Ranged weapon is used to attack at a greater distance."
A weapon used to attack at a greater distance is a Ranged weapon. A dagger used to attack at a greater distances IS a Ranged weapon.
We also have under the Range property:
That is a general rule and the thrown property is an exception, as it allows melee weapons to be used for ranged attacks.
"Range
A Range weapon has a range in parentheses after the Ammunition or Thrown property."
A Range weapon includes weapons with the Ammunition or Thrown property - which includes daggers.
We then have the Thrown property:
It notably does not say ranged weapon, just range weapon, as in a weapon with a range.
It seems to me there's a difference between a Melee weapon with the Thrown property and a Ranged weapon (whether or not it has that property).
Also, I think the Improvised Weapon rules are written as follows for this reason:
An improvised weapon is an object wielded as a makeshift weapon, such as broken glass, a table leg, or a frying pan. A Simple or Martial weapon also counts as an improvised weapon if it’s wielded in a way contrary to its design; if you use a Ranged weapon to make a melee attack or throw a Melee weapon that lacks the Thrown property, the weapon counts as an improvised weapon. An improvised weapon follows the rules below.
Under the Weapons section - here is the definition of Melee and Ranged weapons.
"Melee or Ranged. A weapon is classified as either Melee or Ranged. A Melee weapon is used to attack a target within 5 feet, whereas a Ranged weapon is used to attack at a greater distance."
A weapon used to attack at a greater distance is a Ranged weapon. A dagger used to attack at a greater distances IS a Ranged weapon.
We also have under the Range property:
That is a general rule and the thrown property is an exception, as it allows melee weapons to be used for ranged attacks.
"Range
A Range weapon has a range in parentheses after the Ammunition or Thrown property."
A Range weapon includes weapons with the Ammunition or Thrown property - which includes daggers.
We then have the Thrown property:
It notably does not say ranged weapon, just range weapon, as in a weapon with a range.
Firing in Melee. Being within 5 feet of an enemy doesn’t impose Disadvantage on your attack rolls with Ranged weapons.
Long Shots. Attacking at long range doesn’t impose Disadvantage on your attack rolls with Ranged weapons."
Due to the points I have given, only bypass cover would apply to thrown weapons
I could see interpreting it either way but having the entire interpretation hinge on the difference between "Range weapon" and "Ranged Weapon" is getting a little too rules lawyerish even for me. I think Range Weapon and Ranged Weapon are intended to be the same but I could see someone deciding that they are different.
It seems to me there's a difference between a Melee weapon with the Thrown property and a Ranged weapon (whether or not it has that property).
Also, I think the Improvised Weapon rules are written as follows for this reason:
An improvised weapon is an object wielded as a makeshift weapon, such as broken glass, a table leg, or a frying pan. A Simple or Martial weapon also counts as an improvised weapon if it’s wielded in a way contrary to its design; if you use a Ranged weapon to make a melee attack or throw a Melee weapon that lacks the Thrown property, the weapon counts as an improvised weapon. An improvised weapon follows the rules below.
There is a difference between a Melee weapon with the Thrown property and a Ranged Weapon. The Melee weapon with the Thrown property can be used to make a melee attack or it can be used to make a range attack without being considered an improvised weapon - while a Ranged Weapon or a Melee Weapon without the thrown property IS considered an improvised weapon when making the other type of attack.
However, the question is whether a Melee Weapon with the Thrown property is considered to be a Ranged Weapon when being used for a ranged attack?
The general rule says that any weapon used to make an attack at a distance IS a Ranged weapon but that is general categorization. However, the Thrown weapon property does not contradict this categorization - unless a DM decides that a Weapon must be ONLY a Melee weapon or a Ranged Weapon. The rules don't appear to state this but a DM could decide to enforce it.
However, the Range property states: "A Range weapon has a range in parentheses after the Ammunition or Thrown property."
So a Melee Weapon with the Thrown property is definitely a Range weapon. However, whether this is the same as a Ranged weapon (personally, I am not sure how "Range weapon" differs from "Ranged weapon" from an English language meaning perspective - other than spelling) ... appears to be up to the DM. If it is a Ranged weapon then sharpshooter works - if it is a Range weapon and a Range weapon is different from a Ranged weapon then it doesn't work.
However, the question is whether a Melee Weapon with the Thrown property is considered to be a Ranged Weapon when being used for a ranged attack?
The general rule says that any weapon used to make an attack at a distance IS a Ranged weapon but that is general categorization. However, the Thrown weapon property does not contradict this categorization
Yes it does. The thrown weapon property states "If the weapon is a Melee weapon" -- which clearly indicates that, despite being used to make a ranged attack, it is still a melee weapon, it's just a ranged attack with a melee weapon.
However, the question is whether a Melee Weapon with the Thrown property is considered to be a Ranged Weapon when being used for a ranged attack?
The general rule says that any weapon used to make an attack at a distance IS a Ranged weapon but that is general categorization. However, the Thrown weapon property does not contradict this categorization
Yes it does. The thrown weapon property states "If the weapon is a Melee weapon" -- which clearly indicates that, despite being used to make a ranged attack, it is still a melee weapon, it's just a ranged attack with a melee weapon.
It seems to me there's a difference between a Melee weapon with the Thrown property and a Ranged weapon (whether or not it has that property).
Also, I think the Improvised Weapon rules are written as follows for this reason:
An improvised weapon is an object wielded as a makeshift weapon, such as broken glass, a table leg, or a frying pan. A Simple or Martial weapon also counts as an improvised weapon if it’s wielded in a way contrary to its design; if you use a Ranged weapon to make a melee attack or throw a Melee weapon that lacks the Thrown property, the weapon counts as an improvised weapon. An improvised weapon follows the rules below.
There is a difference between a Melee weapon with the Thrown property and a Ranged Weapon. The Melee weapon with the Thrown property can be used to make a melee attack or it can be used to make a range attack without being considered an improvised weapon - while a Ranged Weapon or a Melee Weapon without the thrown property IS considered an improvised weapon when making the other type of attack.
However, the question is whether a Melee Weapon with the Thrown property is considered to be a Ranged Weapon when being used for a ranged attack?
The general rule says that any weapon used to make an attack at a distance IS a Ranged weapon but that is general categorization. However, the Thrown weapon property does not contradict this categorization - unless a DM decides that a Weapon must be ONLY a Melee weapon or a Ranged Weapon. The rules don't appear to state this but a DM could decide to enforce it.
However, the Range property states: "A Range weapon has a range in parentheses after the Ammunition or Thrown property."
So a Melee Weapon with the Thrown property is definitely a Range weapon. However, whether this is the same as a Ranged weapon (personally, I am not sure how "Range weapon" differs from "Ranged weapon" from an English language meaning perspective - other than spelling) ... appears to be up to the DM. If it is a Ranged weapon then sharpshooter works - if it is a Range weapon and a Range weapon is different from a Ranged weapon then it doesn't work.
There are four weapon categories in both the 2014 PH and 2024 PH: Simple Melee Weapons, Simple Ranged Weapons, Martial Melee Weapons, and Martial Ranged Weapons. Every listed weapon is specifically placed into one of those categories, and they don't change categories simply because an exception to the general rules say they can be used a different way.
The rules for melee attacks and ranged attacks apply no matter if the weapon in question is Simple, Martial, or Improvised. If you were playing under the 2014 rules and used a acid vial as an Improvised Weapon to make a ranged weapon attack, the damage roll would be 2d6 + Dexterity modifier because you're making a ranged attack. And, by default, ranged attacks use Dexterity for the attack and damage rolls.
But perhaps the best example of how to read all of this is in the SAC, itself.
What does “melee weapon attack” mean: a melee attack with a weapon or an attack with a melee weapon?
It means a melee attack with a weapon. Similarly, “ranged weapon attack” means a ranged attack with a weapon. Some attacks count as a melee or ranged weapon attack even if a weapon isn’t involved, as specified in the text of those attacks. For example, an unarmed strike counts as a melee weapon attack, even though the attacker’s body isn’t considered a weapon.
Here’s a bit of wording minutia: we would write “melee-weapon attack” (with a hyphen) if we meant an attack with a melee weapon.
...having the entire interpretation hinge on the difference between "Range weapon" and "Ranged Weapon" is getting a little too rules lawyerish even for me.
The single use of the term "Range Weapon" when defining the term "Range" is used to be an all-inclusive term for "ranged melee weapons" and "ranged ranged weapons" because of the simplified chart structure. They are simply defining the term "Range". It's the only place the term "Range Weapon" is used in the PHB'24 that I could find. Nowhere does it say a ranged melee weapon is NOT a "ranged weapon".
The RAW clearly state: "A weapon is classified as either Melee or Ranged. A Melee weapon is used to attack a target within 5 feet, whereas a Ranged weapon is used to attack at a greater distance."
So weapons like daggers can be both a melee weapon OR a ranged weapon depending on how it's used. But it would be redundant and wasteful to list them twice on the weapons chart.
The weapons chart (p215) detail ("Simple Melee Weapons", "Martial Melee Weapons", "Simple Ranged Weapons" and "Martial Ranged Weapons") seems to have no other purpose than to help categorize the chart for ease of readability. I don't know why people would assign any importance to those details on the chart when it clearly defines what a Ranged Weapon is in the RAW. In fact, those 4 categories are referenced nowhere in the PHB'24 that I can find other than the Monk's level 1 class feature: "Martial Arts" that simply applies some styles to all Simple Melee Weapons and any Martial Melee Weapons that have the Light property. Again, this seems like an easy way to filter your list rather than list every weapon.
So to summarize, RAW says that a weapon listed with a range, is a Ranged Weapon when used to attack at a greater distance outside of 5'. The chart is simplified for readability.
A dagger used within 5' is a Melee Weapon. A dagger used outside of 5' is a Ranged Weapon
So weapons like daggers can be both a melee weapon OR a ranged weapon depending on how it's used. But it would be redundant and wasteful to list them twice on the weapons chart.
Rules that create exceptions to other rules only change usage in the way they specify, they don't change classification or definitions unless they specifically say so.
So no, a weapon is either a Melee weapon or a Ranged weapon (defined by the chart) and that doesn't change. The Thrown property only allows you to use the weapon to make a ranged attack, it does not re-define the weapon to be a Ranged weapon. In fact the property clearly keeps a Melee weapon as being a Melee weapon because it tells you what modifier to use for the attack/damage rolls if it is a Melee weapon.
However, the question is whether a Melee Weapon with the Thrown property is considered to be a Ranged Weapon when being used for a ranged attack?
The general rule says that any weapon used to make an attack at a distance IS a Ranged weapon but that is general categorization. However, the Thrown weapon property does not contradict this categorization - unless a DM decides that a Weapon must be ONLY a Melee weapon or a Ranged Weapon. The rules don't appear to state this but a DM could decide to enforce it.
The rule says that "A weapon is classified as either Melee or Ranged", doesn't seem to leave much room for it to be both. And there is no need for them to be both anyway, the rules work just fine with weapons being either Melee or Ranged and then having some specified exceptions to how they are used.
However, the Range property states: "A Range weapon has a range in parentheses after the Ammunition or Thrown property."
So a Melee Weapon with the Thrown property is definitely a Range weapon. However, whether this is the same as a Ranged weapon (personally, I am not sure how "Range weapon" differs from "Ranged weapon" from an English language meaning perspective - other than spelling) ... appears to be up to the DM. If it is a Ranged weapon then sharpshooter works - if it is a Range weapon and a Range weapon is different from a Ranged weapon then it doesn't work.
Oh come on, it's not that hard (you have the answer in your own post when quoting the Range property).
"Range" is a property and thus weapons with that property are "Range weapons". "Ranged" is a classification and thus weapons with that classification are "Ranged weapons".
While I do think they should have used the "weapon that has the Range property" instead of "Ranged weapon" (Ammunition and Thrown uses the former while the other eight properties uses the latter) it really shouldn't be that hard to see in the context of the rules that they are different concepts.
So to summarize, RAW says that a weapon listed with a range, is a Ranged Weapon when used to attack at a greater distance outside of 5'. The chart is simplified for readability.
A dagger used within 5' is a Melee Weapon. A dagger used outside of 5' is a Ranged Weapon
No.
A Dagger is a Melee Weapon. It has the Thrown property so you can throw the Melee Weapon to make a ranged attack.
Take a look to the text in blue:
Thrown
If a weapon has the Thrown property, you can throw the weapon to make a ranged attack, and you can draw that weapon as part of the attack. If the weapon is a Melee weapon, use the same ability modifier for the attack and damage rolls that you use for a melee attack with that weapon.
Does the Archery fighting style work with a melee weapon that you throw?
No, the Archery feature benefits ranged weapons. A melee weapon, such as a dagger or handaxe, is still a melee weapon when you make a ranged attack with it.
Does the Archery fighting style work with a melee weapon that you throw?
No, the Archery feature benefits ranged weapons. A melee weapon, such as a dagger or handaxe, is still a melee weapon when you make a ranged attack with it.
In the past, Jeremy Crawford himself said the Sharpshooter Feat Long Shot benefit officially works with thrown melee weapons like daggers:
https://www.sageadvice.eu/does-sharpshooter-feat-work-with-daggers/
The first benefit in the 2014 Sharpshooter rules state: "Attacking at long range doesn't impose disadvantage on your ranged weapon attack rolls."
Here, he specified that "ranged weapon attacks" are different than "ranged weapons":
https://www.sageadvice.eu/does-sharpshooter-feat-should-work-with-daggers/
But now the fourth benefit of the 2024 Sharpshooter rules state: "Long Shots. Attacking at long range doesn’t impose Disadvantage on your attack rolls with Ranged weapons."
It explicitly names "Ranged weapons," not "ranged weapon attack rolls". So does that now exclude all thrown melee weapons, like Daggers, Handaxes, Javelins, Light Hammers, Spears & Tridents from the Longshot benefit??
This seems strange since Crawford specifically and officially claimed otherwise in the past. Could this have been unintentional?
Yes, according to RAW, the old Sharpshooter applied to thrown weapons and the new one doesn't. The change to the language seems very intentional.
One of the things you have to keep in mind Crawford's public communications in general is that he almost never acknowledges that it's even possible that the Rules As Written might be different from the Rules As Intended, except in cases where they've already made a decision to change something in future printings. If you ask him for an answer, you will pretty much always get a RAW answer, even if you explicitly ask for a RAI answer. This may be for legal reasons, I don't know. But my point is: it's much more likely that the 2014 version wasn't intended to work with thrown weapons (even though by RAW it does) and that's why they changed it in 2024.
pronouns: he/she/they
Logically, a ranged weapon has a chance to travel accurately out to it's max distance/range. But a weapon that is thrown is probably ineffective (damage & accuracy) at that max range. A ranged weapon is more aerodynamic and designed that the sharp end will always be the 1st part that makes contact. Axe/dagger/etc. has the sharp end on only a portion of the weapon, so any rotation of that weapon can result in a thump, not actual penetration.
Crawford's feats were never official, and Sharpshooter never made its way into the SAC.
This comes down to a quirk in language. A "ranged weapon attack roll" can be either an attack roll with a ranged weapon or a ranged attack made with a weapon; depending on interpretation. Some monsters had a "Melee or Ranged Weapon Attack" in their stat block, though the general rules for Attack Rolls in the 2014 PH read as follows.
This explanation poins to "ranged weapon attack" being made with Dexterity, so we're talking about Ranged weapons. This is a reinforcement of the description for weapons in the Equipment chapter.
The succeeding tables also break down melee and ranged weapons, with the Thrown property used to distinguish (in most cases) melee weapons that can also be used for ranged attacks. As written, the feat was only ever intended to work with ranged weapons; not simply any weapon capable of a ranged attack.
TL;DR
The feat wasn't nerfed so much as language was clarified.
Ignoring JC's comments ... here are some rules from the 2024 PHB for consideration.
TLDR; Thrown daggers are considered Ranged weapons and Sharpshooter effects DO apply in the 2024 rules.
Under the Weapons section - here is the definition of Melee and Ranged weapons.
"Melee or Ranged. A weapon is classified as either Melee or Ranged. A Melee weapon is used to attack a target within 5 feet, whereas a Ranged weapon is used to attack at a greater distance."
A weapon used to attack at a greater distance is a Ranged weapon. A dagger used to attack at a greater distances IS a Ranged weapon.
We also have under the Range property:
"Range
A Range weapon has a range in parentheses after the Ammunition or Thrown property."
A Range weapon includes weapons with the Ammunition or Thrown property - which includes daggers.
We then have the Thrown property:
"Thrown
If a weapon has the Thrown property, you can throw the weapon to make a ranged attack, and you can draw that weapon as part of the attack. If the weapon is a Melee weapon, use the same ability modifier for the attack and damage rolls that you use for a melee attack with that weapon."
The weapon can be thrown to make a ranged attack but if the weapon is classified as a Melee weapon in the table - you use the same ability modifier that you would use for a melee attack with that weapon.
The table divides weapons into Melee and Ranged weapons - this is because it is wasteful to list weapons in two locations if they have the Thrown property. Based on the first two rules cited above Thrown weapons ARE considered Ranged weapons in the rules.
Looking at the Sharpshooter feat:
"Bypass Cover. Your ranged attacks with weapons ignore Half Cover and Three-Quarters Cover.
Firing in Melee. Being within 5 feet of an enemy doesn’t impose Disadvantage on your attack rolls with Ranged weapons.
Long Shots. Attacking at long range doesn’t impose Disadvantage on your attack rolls with Ranged weapons."
All of these bullet points should apply to Thrown weapons (including daggers) since the rules consider weapons that are used to attack at greater distances and which include a Range specification in the table to BE Ranged weapons when used in that context.
Except - see my post above -
The rules consider any weapon used to attack at a distance as a Ranged weapon.
"Melee or Ranged. A weapon is classified as either Melee or Ranged. A Melee weapon is used to attack a target within 5 feet, whereas a Ranged weapon is used to attack at a greater distance."
A weapon used to attack at a greater distance is a Ranged weapon. A dagger used to attack at a greater distances IS a Ranged weapon.
We also have under the Range property:
"Range
A Range weapon has a range in parentheses after the Ammunition or Thrown property."
Range weapons have the Ammunition or Thrown property.
Daggers ARE considered Ranged weapons when Thrown.
.. at least that is what the rules appear to say ..
That is a general rule and the thrown property is an exception, as it allows melee weapons to be used for ranged attacks.
It notably does not say ranged weapon, just range weapon, as in a weapon with a range.
Due to the points I have given, only bypass cover would apply to thrown weapons
Extended signature
It seems to me there's a difference between a Melee weapon with the Thrown property and a Ranged weapon (whether or not it has that property).
Also, I think the Improvised Weapon rules are written as follows for this reason:
I could see interpreting it either way but having the entire interpretation hinge on the difference between "Range weapon" and "Ranged Weapon" is getting a little too rules lawyerish even for me. I think Range Weapon and Ranged Weapon are intended to be the same but I could see someone deciding that they are different.
There is a difference between a Melee weapon with the Thrown property and a Ranged Weapon. The Melee weapon with the Thrown property can be used to make a melee attack or it can be used to make a range attack without being considered an improvised weapon - while a Ranged Weapon or a Melee Weapon without the thrown property IS considered an improvised weapon when making the other type of attack.
However, the question is whether a Melee Weapon with the Thrown property is considered to be a Ranged Weapon when being used for a ranged attack?
The general rule says that any weapon used to make an attack at a distance IS a Ranged weapon but that is general categorization. However, the Thrown weapon property does not contradict this categorization - unless a DM decides that a Weapon must be ONLY a Melee weapon or a Ranged Weapon. The rules don't appear to state this but a DM could decide to enforce it.
However, the Range property states:
"A Range weapon has a range in parentheses after the Ammunition or Thrown property."
So a Melee Weapon with the Thrown property is definitely a Range weapon. However, whether this is the same as a Ranged weapon (personally, I am not sure how "Range weapon" differs from "Ranged weapon" from an English language meaning perspective - other than spelling) ... appears to be up to the DM. If it is a Ranged weapon then sharpshooter works - if it is a Range weapon and a Range weapon is different from a Ranged weapon then it doesn't work.
Yes it does. The thrown weapon property states "If the weapon is a Melee weapon" -- which clearly indicates that, despite being used to make a ranged attack, it is still a melee weapon, it's just a ranged attack with a melee weapon.
Ok ... I agree :)
There are four weapon categories in both the 2014 PH and 2024 PH: Simple Melee Weapons, Simple Ranged Weapons, Martial Melee Weapons, and Martial Ranged Weapons. Every listed weapon is specifically placed into one of those categories, and they don't change categories simply because an exception to the general rules say they can be used a different way.
The rules for melee attacks and ranged attacks apply no matter if the weapon in question is Simple, Martial, or Improvised. If you were playing under the 2014 rules and used a acid vial as an Improvised Weapon to make a ranged weapon attack, the damage roll would be 2d6 + Dexterity modifier because you're making a ranged attack. And, by default, ranged attacks use Dexterity for the attack and damage rolls.
But perhaps the best example of how to read all of this is in the SAC, itself.
A weapon is classified as either Melee or Ranged, regardless of it's properties. So for example while both can be Thrown;
Dagger is a melee weapon
Dart is a ranged weapon
The revision no longer allow some Sharpshooter benefits with thrown melee weapons.
The single use of the term "Range Weapon" when defining the term "Range" is used to be an all-inclusive term for "ranged melee weapons" and "ranged ranged weapons" because of the simplified chart structure. They are simply defining the term "Range". It's the only place the term "Range Weapon" is used in the PHB'24 that I could find. Nowhere does it say a ranged melee weapon is NOT a "ranged weapon".
The RAW clearly state: "A weapon is classified as either Melee or Ranged. A Melee weapon is used to attack a target within 5 feet, whereas a Ranged weapon is used to attack at a greater distance."
So weapons like daggers can be both a melee weapon OR a ranged weapon depending on how it's used. But it would be redundant and wasteful to list them twice on the weapons chart.
The weapons chart (p215) detail ("Simple Melee Weapons", "Martial Melee Weapons", "Simple Ranged Weapons" and "Martial Ranged Weapons") seems to have no other purpose than to help categorize the chart for ease of readability. I don't know why people would assign any importance to those details on the chart when it clearly defines what a Ranged Weapon is in the RAW. In fact, those 4 categories are referenced nowhere in the PHB'24 that I can find other than the Monk's level 1 class feature: "Martial Arts" that simply applies some styles to all Simple Melee Weapons and any Martial Melee Weapons that have the Light property. Again, this seems like an easy way to filter your list rather than list every weapon.
So to summarize, RAW says that a weapon listed with a range, is a Ranged Weapon when used to attack at a greater distance outside of 5'. The chart is simplified for readability.
A dagger used within 5' is a Melee Weapon.
A dagger used outside of 5' is a Ranged Weapon
There is no such thing as a "ranged melee weapon". Weapons are either melee or ranged, not both.
Rules that create exceptions to other rules only change usage in the way they specify, they don't change classification or definitions unless they specifically say so.
So no, a weapon is either a Melee weapon or a Ranged weapon (defined by the chart) and that doesn't change. The Thrown property only allows you to use the weapon to make a ranged attack, it does not re-define the weapon to be a Ranged weapon. In fact the property clearly keeps a Melee weapon as being a Melee weapon because it tells you what modifier to use for the attack/damage rolls if it is a Melee weapon.
The rule says that "A weapon is classified as either Melee or Ranged", doesn't seem to leave much room for it to be both. And there is no need for them to be both anyway, the rules work just fine with weapons being either Melee or Ranged and then having some specified exceptions to how they are used.
Oh come on, it's not that hard (you have the answer in your own post when quoting the Range property).
"Range" is a property and thus weapons with that property are "Range weapons".
"Ranged" is a classification and thus weapons with that classification are "Ranged weapons".
While I do think they should have used the "weapon that has the Range property" instead of "Ranged weapon" (Ammunition and Thrown uses the former while the other eight properties uses the latter) it really shouldn't be that hard to see in the context of the rules that they are different concepts.
No.
A Dagger is a Melee Weapon. It has the Thrown property so you can throw the Melee Weapon to make a ranged attack.
Take a look to the text in blue:
We can also see in this Sage Advice Compendium entry an official ruling on this subject;
Those are for 2014 rules.