So, I noticed a difference for the PHB and DMG rules when it comes to crafting Spell Scrolls. The PHB makes it so you need "Arcana or Calligrapher's Supplies", while the DMG makes it an "and". Personally, I believe the "and" makes more sense. The reason being: if it's an "or", than it makes Calligrapher's Supplies less useful and makes taking it as a tool pretty much useless.
If you search the 2024 DMG for "scroll" magic items. There are only 3 including spell scrolls.
From the standpoint of making every tool feel unique to take and worthwhile it should be an "and".
This could of been a typo and it was supposed to be an "and". I was just wondering what other people's thought were on this.
---References below---
PHB: "To scribe a scroll, you must have proficiency in the Arcana skill or with Calligrapher's Supplies and have the spell prepared on each day of the inscription..." [1]
DMG: "To craft a magic item, you and any assistants must have proficiency in the Arcana skill..." [2] "The Magic Item Tools table lists which tool is required to make a magic item of each category. You must use the required tool to make an item and have proficiency with that tool..."[3]
RAW, it's "or", not "and". The DMG sections you've quoted define the general rules for crafting items in the Scrolls category. The PHB section defines a specific rule for Spell Scrolls (not other types of scrolls) that overrides the DMG rule.
Exactly. The "or" version only applies to spell scrolls.
The PHB also defines a specific rule for crafting Potions of Healing that differs from the general rule (requiring only proficiency with an Herbalism Kit).
To scribe a scroll, you must have proficiency in the Arcana skill or with Calligrapher’s Supplies and have the spell prepared on each day of the inscription. You must also have at hand any Material components required by the spell; if the spell consumes its Material components, they are consumed only when you complete the scroll. The scroll’s spell uses your spell save DC and spell attack bonus.
Thank you for your replies! I see that the DMG tells you to go with the ruling for the PHB. RAW it is "or" for crafting Spell Scrolls.
In that case, I see almost no reason to ever be proficient with Calligrapher's Supplies besides for roleplay.
Any player who wants to craft a magic item in 2024 must have proficiency in the Arcana skill. Which means they automatically get the ability to craft Spell Scrolls based on the PHB.
I find this very sad. I'd rather it be an "and" or for the requirement to be just proficiency in Calligrapher's Supplies.
IMO, it's fine. The rules are, in some way, rewarding players who choose to have proficiency in the required Tools for basic Potions of Healing (Herbalism Kit) and Spell Scrolls (Calligrapher’s Supplies), which is a good thing.
Agreed. In particular the new Acolyte background provides the calligraphy proficiency, so any spellcaster with that background can create spell scrolls without having to take the Arcana skill as well.
Agreed. In particular the new Acolyte background provides the calligraphy proficiency, so any spellcaster with that background can create spell scrolls without having to take the Arcana skill as well.
I'm fine with having the Calligrapher's proficiency giving you Spell Scrolls without Arcana, I think that's cool and makes having that Tool feel more rewarding.
I dislike the Arcana proficiency giving you Spell Scrolls without Calligrapher's Supplies though.
Arcana should be only requirement. Why would a lack of flowery over the top script stop a wizard from scrawling a scroll? Bad hand writing doesn't stop a wizard from writing in their spellbook. And I'm pretty sure I read somewhere in the rules that the reason why it's time consuming to copy a scrolls or spellbooks spells is because the wizard needs time to decipher the particular handwriting and style of whoever wrote the scroll or spellbook. This would indicate not every scroll has the same boilerplate calligraphy.
Arcana should be only requirement. Why would a lack of flowery over the top script stop a wizard from scrawling a scroll?
It was the only requirement in XGtE, indeed.
But as I said, I'm ok with the changes.
Bad hand writing doesn't stop a wizard from writing in their spellbook. And I'm pretty sure I read somewhere in the rules that the reason why it's time consuming to copy a scrolls or spellbooks spells is because the wizard needs time to decipher the particular handwriting and style of whoever wrote the scroll or spellbook. This would indicate not every scroll has the same boilerplate calligraphy.
Maybe in the 2014 PHB?
Copying that spell into your spellbook involves reproducing the basic form of the spell, then deciphering the unique system of notation used by the wizard who wrote it. You must practice the spell until you understand the sounds or gestures required, then transcribe it into your spellbook using your own notation.
Arcana should be only requirement. Why would a lack of flowery over the top script stop a wizard from scrawling a scroll? Bad hand writing doesn't stop a wizard from writing in their spellbook. And I'm pretty sure I read somewhere in the rules that the reason why it's time consuming to copy a scrolls or spellbooks spells is because the wizard needs time to decipher the particular handwriting and style of whoever wrote the scroll or spellbook. This would indicate not every scroll has the same boilerplate calligraphy.
The point of having two separate options is so you're not forcing every caster who wants to make their own scrolls to take Arcana. Having a second option that uses a tool prof instead of a skill prof makes for much more flexible character design space.
Yea in other cases I'd probably agree there's a necessity for that flexibility, but when it comes to this; are you even a spellcaster if you're not proficient in arcana?
Yea in other cases I'd probably agree there's a necessity for that flexibility, but when it comes to this; are you even a spellcaster if you're not proficient in arcana?
Lots of spellcasting characters don’t take proficiency in Arcana. It’s not even a class skill option for Clerics, Paladins, or Rangers.
Arcana should be only requirement. Why would a lack of flowery over the top script stop a wizard from scrawling a scroll? Bad hand writing doesn't stop a wizard from writing in their spellbook. And I'm pretty sure I read somewhere in the rules that the reason why it's time consuming to copy a scrolls or spellbooks spells is because the wizard needs time to decipher the particular handwriting and style of whoever wrote the scroll or spellbook. This would indicate not every scroll has the same boilerplate calligraphy.
calligraphy isnt just writing in fancy cursive its an art form about precision
when you're creating a spell scroll, you're not just writing words on a page, you're channeling the energy of the Weave into the scroll. So a scroll will have 1. any verbal component of a spell, to be read aloud 2. instructions or diagrams on somatic components 3. The magical energy of the spell and any material components
so for the scroll to work it needs to be very carefully transcribed or else all you're doing is wasting resources each caster may write a spell down a different way but they're all gonna have the same basic concepts on the scroll that anyone familiar with that subject would understand (this is also the reason why RAW says you cant read a scroll unless the spell appears on your list, but I ignore that because its no fun)
point is, you need skill to accurately and safely transcribe magical energies into mundane objects, and calligraphers are gonna be able to throw out sigils and such that others are gonna struggle with, but arcana specialists are gonna have to have learned these same diagrams and while they may not be able to create works of art, they have learned to make THESE subjects
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So, I noticed a difference for the PHB and DMG rules when it comes to crafting Spell Scrolls. The PHB makes it so you need "Arcana or Calligrapher's Supplies", while the DMG makes it an "and". Personally, I believe the "and" makes more sense. The reason being: if it's an "or", than it makes Calligrapher's Supplies less useful and makes taking it as a tool pretty much useless.
If you search the 2024 DMG for "scroll" magic items. There are only 3 including spell scrolls.
From the standpoint of making every tool feel unique to take and worthwhile it should be an "and".
This could of been a typo and it was supposed to be an "and". I was just wondering what other people's thought were on this.
---References below---
PHB:
"To scribe a scroll, you must have proficiency in the Arcana skill or with Calligrapher's Supplies and have the spell prepared on each day of the inscription..." [1]
DMG:
"To craft a magic item, you and any assistants must have proficiency in the Arcana skill..." [2]
"The Magic Item Tools table lists which tool is required to make a magic item of each category. You must use the required tool to make an item and have proficiency with that tool..."[3]
[1] PHB (dndbeyond)
[2] DMG (dndbeyond)
[3] DMG (dndbeyond)
RAW, it's "or", not "and". The DMG sections you've quoted define the general rules for crafting items in the Scrolls category. The PHB section defines a specific rule for Spell Scrolls (not other types of scrolls) that overrides the DMG rule.
pronouns: he/she/they
If someone had proficiency with calligrapher's supplies, but not arcana, I would let them scribe a scroll, but not craft (other) magic items.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Exactly. The "or" version only applies to spell scrolls.
The PHB also defines a specific rule for crafting Potions of Healing that differs from the general rule (requiring only proficiency with an Herbalism Kit).
pronouns: he/she/they
As @wagnarokkr said, the rules for Spell Scrolls are in the PHB, not the DMG. Let me add here the links to the rules:
DMG:
PHB:
A couple of nice articles about 2024 crafting rules:
Thank you for your replies! I see that the DMG tells you to go with the ruling for the PHB. RAW it is "or" for crafting Spell Scrolls.
In that case, I see almost no reason to ever be proficient with Calligrapher's Supplies besides for roleplay.
Any player who wants to craft a magic item in 2024 must have proficiency in the Arcana skill. Which means they automatically get the ability to craft Spell Scrolls based on the PHB.
I find this very sad. I'd rather it be an "and" or for the requirement to be just proficiency in Calligrapher's Supplies.
What are your thoughts?
IMO, it's fine. The rules are, in some way, rewarding players who choose to have proficiency in the required Tools for basic Potions of Healing (Herbalism Kit) and Spell Scrolls (Calligrapher’s Supplies), which is a good thing.
Agreed. In particular the new Acolyte background provides the calligraphy proficiency, so any spellcaster with that background can create spell scrolls without having to take the Arcana skill as well.
pronouns: he/she/they
I'm fine with having the Calligrapher's proficiency giving you Spell Scrolls without Arcana, I think that's cool and makes having that Tool feel more rewarding.
I dislike the Arcana proficiency giving you Spell Scrolls without Calligrapher's Supplies though.
Arcana should be only requirement. Why would a lack of flowery over the top script stop a wizard from scrawling a scroll? Bad hand writing doesn't stop a wizard from writing in their spellbook. And I'm pretty sure I read somewhere in the rules that the reason why it's time consuming to copy a scrolls or spellbooks spells is because the wizard needs time to decipher the particular handwriting and style of whoever wrote the scroll or spellbook. This would indicate not every scroll has the same boilerplate calligraphy.
It was the only requirement in XGtE, indeed.
But as I said, I'm ok with the changes.
Maybe in the 2014 PHB?
The point of having two separate options is so you're not forcing every caster who wants to make their own scrolls to take Arcana. Having a second option that uses a tool prof instead of a skill prof makes for much more flexible character design space.
Yea in other cases I'd probably agree there's a necessity for that flexibility, but when it comes to this; are you even a spellcaster if you're not proficient in arcana?
Lots of spellcasting characters don’t take proficiency in Arcana. It’s not even a class skill option for Clerics, Paladins, or Rangers.
pronouns: he/she/they
For better or for worse, arcana being attached to intelligence means that most casters aren't going to excel at it, even with proficiency.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
calligraphy isnt just writing in fancy cursive
its an art form about precision
when you're creating a spell scroll, you're not just writing words on a page, you're channeling the energy of the Weave into the scroll. So a scroll will have
1. any verbal component of a spell, to be read aloud
2. instructions or diagrams on somatic components
3. The magical energy of the spell and any material components
so for the scroll to work it needs to be very carefully transcribed or else all you're doing is wasting resources
each caster may write a spell down a different way but they're all gonna have the same basic concepts on the scroll that anyone familiar with that subject would understand (this is also the reason why RAW says you cant read a scroll unless the spell appears on your list, but I ignore that because its no fun)
point is, you need skill to accurately and safely transcribe magical energies into mundane objects, and calligraphers are gonna be able to throw out sigils and such that others are gonna struggle with, but arcana specialists are gonna have to have learned these same diagrams and while they may not be able to create works of art, they have learned to make THESE subjects