I can't see anything in the Monster Manual, under Lycanthropes, about a player not retaining the character.
Certainly, previous editions of D&D said the character became an npc, but 5e doesn't say that (unless I am just missing the wording somewhere).
I believe under the Lycanthrope blurb it says the character may become under the DM's control. Realistically if the PC becomes chaotic evil, there is really no way the PC could continue to travel with the other PCs, and would realistically try to kill the party cleric/Paladin/warlock/wizard at the very least. The whole idea that a chaotic evil creature is going to hang out with the PCs who can wave their hand and end his Lycanthrope nature, is laughable at best. Remove curse doesn't have a save, so literally at the first hint that he might be a werewolf those PCs would be able to cure him of it.
Might be more flexibility if the party has no good members, but otherwise it just isn't something that is doable within the nature of the game. I've never played in a game where a chaotic evil character works out for the game. At some point either the chaotic evil character isn't really playing chaotic evil, or the other players aren't really playing their alignment. You could say he is just using them, but he would need like an intelligence of like 3, to be foolish enough to use any PC capable of ending the curse.
If for some reason the PC manages to keep his alignment, that still begs the question of whether or not the Cleric/Paladin/etc. are going to see the person as not being curse, knowing it is only a matter of time until his full werewolf tendencies emerge.
Basically since he chose to embrace the change and succumb to it, there is no way he can continue to play the character. At the very least he should wake up finding out the rest of the party has cured him.
The other issue is that having a character immune to virtually all encounters or giving the PCs a ton of magic loot isn't really an option for the game. I doubt the other players are going to enjoy the walking immune beast who can't die. There also should be drastic consequences once intelligent enemies find out that he can't die. They simply aren't going to stick around and try to fight a werewolf. And at some point technically an NPC cleric is going to realize that he just has to cast remove curse on the werewolf.
Turning evil is different than becoming a bloodthirsty homicidal maniac.
A character may be sneaky, insidious or selfish and that makes him evil. But the goals of both the character and the party may be the same and for a limited time, they tolerate each other. Being good aligned is not "bash all evil and purge corruption!" kind of attitude. It doesn't have to end in bloodshed.
That being said, there are few work arounds for the situation, I believe. Maybe the party will think it's getting out of hand and force the werewolf for a cure. Or it transforms to a werewolf only once a moon and when it happens, he becomes an NPC.
I mean do you really think a chaotic evil being would sleep next to someone who could end his amazing I can't die power in six seconds whenever the person felt like? There is just no way any evil character is going to be around someone like that. The other problem this also assumes the PCs aren't going to want to cure their friend who is now being controlled by forces outside his control.
From a game stand point the real issue is having a sorcerer who can't die unless you give every single monster a silver weapon. Like why do the PCs even go attack anything when they can send the sorcerer in to destroy everything?
The real question is, what was this character like BEFORE he was bitten? I'd argue that 99% of Good characters would never embrace something that would put innocents in danger. I'd also argue that a good number of Neutral players wouldn't want to put their friends/companions in danger. You almost HAVE to already be evil (or at least leaning that way) to ever think about embracing lycanthropy. The only exception is maybe the good ones (like werebear), but even then, you'd want to go live with your own kind until you learn to control it (because you wouldn't want to accidentally put others in danger).
Personally, I'd first ask what his CHARACTER would do (not what the clearly min-maxing type of player would do). I'd then tell him that if he'd submit to the blood lust and murder, that he's evil and he's now an NPC. Because, trust me, he'll either play it poorly and won't RP it to be the blood lusting murder machine that werewolves are, or he'll play it correctly and the rest of the group will get upset.
Also, Strahd would probably not take to kindly to a werewolf out of his control. Which is scarier than anything that player could do to the party.
“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
I find myself dealing with a similar situation, the party Rogue was bitten and failed his save, but here is how I plan on handling it for discussion sake:
1) He was just bitten, and since I'm on a very time controlled campaign (do something before this date or really bad things happen), I'm allowing him some time to decide to embrace or fight the effects.
2) He's not going to get the damage immunity until his first changing. The curse is still doing its work on him. He did wake up the next morning with the 15 strength, and feeling a bit more aggressive (which he did play off well in a later encounter).
3) He went Assassin at level 3, before he was bitten, as his taste for battle and an internal bloodlust was already growing. So he had already slipped to Chaotic Neutral. Moving deeper into the alignment pool would be in character, especially as...
4) Each day, I'm going to have him make a Cha save, dc 12 (same as the the WW's infection DC). Each failure, his desire for blood is going to increase as the curse takes control. I haven't decided how many failures before he's not much more than a slavering beast. 3 or 5 given the timeline. After 3, he's moved into evil territory for sure.
5) If he decides to embrace it, I've planted hooks for finding a teacher, from possibly a good group of werebears, Shifters, or such as a way to help counter the alignment change, but he is going to have to work for it, and may not have the time to pull it off.
6) I have a Paladin of the Ancients of Corellon (using 4e PHB dieties in my homebrew), and a Priestess of Melora in the party to help keep him in check, and the players understand that if he goes too wild, they will have to put him down. The cleric is the one who diagnosed his issues after being bitten and is fully aware of his condition, and they are in wait and see mode.
7) I ruled Greater Restoration is needed to cure him outright, and now am deciding if it should be made available in the city they are in, or if they have to quest to find one before any of the group casters can learn the spell.
8) The first full moon, barring some serious intervention, all the gloves are off, berserk murder machine on a rampage. It so happens, the first full moon coincides with the plans of some of my NPCs on that timeline I mentioned earlier. It could be a wild night.
What was his alignment before he went assassin and why did you make him change it? Just curious, because not all assassins necessarily enjoy killing. Nor does their killing necessarily make them more chaotic or less good than any of the other roguish archetypes.
For example: a local thieve's guild is taken over by an evil leader. While the guild was always an organized crime ring, they tended to leave innocents alone (for the most part). But now there have been numerous more heinous crimes (like murder, ****, etc...) that have all led back to this new leader. Someone in the government (or the church, or maybe just a noble who was a victim) might hire an assassin to kill the leader quietly, because an outright attempt to crack down on that guild by the government might cause an all-out war in the streets. The assassin is doing a good deed (protecting the innocents from the guild) and is ensuring that law and order is maintained.
Sure, the act of murder might be considered both evil and against the law, but in this case an assassin could be LG and not have any qualms about doing the job.
“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
He was pretty much neutral, a thief for hire, and the player described his choice of assassin and his own alignment shift with it as his character's liking his taste for blood and combat after the first few encounters. It all sounded reasonable to me, so let him run with it. The new lycanthropy angle just makes it more interesting as he progresses.
“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
I agree. The way he's playing it, he's getting more erratic (chaotic), and still dealing with the bloodthirsty part. He hasn't acted out of anything but self defense, yet.
After being infected with lycanthropy, my warlock negotiated a deal with Asmodeus' Houndmaster to control the curse in exchange for 1) any evil items of power that come into his possession; and 2) certain services to be rendered at a future date. Unfortunately the devil was deliberately a bit vague, so it isn't entirely clear if the "control" will actually keep the warlock from eventually turning evil.
He started out as lawful good, but Barovia is doing a number on him, and between that and the imp whispering in his ear he's becoming more and more convinced that it will come down to defeating Strahd or preserving his soul - and he's willing to make that sacrifice. For the sake of the party, he'll hold out as long as he can, but he'll do what needs to be done to acquire the power they need.
Mechanically, I don't want to outshine the rest of the party, so I'll be careful to play him more conservatively to avoid triggering a deadly blood rage. Not to mention stirring up some delicious drama between party members who want to cure him and those who want to use him!
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Kerrigan, gold dragonborn pact of the chain fiend warlock (8)/favored soul sorcerer (3): Survived Strahd Roland Crowe, stout halfling pirate (7): off working other angles while the party fights giants Alekhine Dorvanellyn, eladrin bladesinger (7): Fighting giants
Running curse of strahd and have another rule I need some guidance on. One of my players was bit by a werewolf and hid the curse from the other players he wants to embrace the curse and after the third night I told him."you can embrace it and become evil or resist it until you find a cure" he said he wanted to embrace it and he has the argument that I should not take his player over as a npc because he can learn to harness the power and be aware of his friends and foes. So 1.) I see this as you are now willing to murder and eat people and do evil things with the mind set that oh this is okay. 2.) You now are immune to nonsilvered non magical wepons?!? And still think I'm going to let you roam as a pc?!? 3.)the other pc's are goodly aligned players and are only in berovia for a search and rescue mission.
So my question is, should I of just took the player sheet and been like "make a new hero, yours is now evil and skulking in the woods", or let this guy become broken and allow him to not be harmed by almost any other encounters?!?.
Thanks p.s. first campaign I have ran
I wanna say I like this kind of situation in games and I'd definitely keep the character on board as long as there's a chance he can be a part of the game (and he seems willing to be a part of the game as opposed to making a big mess). The situation you described is very characteristic of Ravenloft in general for both ways (in many cases the PC would turn into an NPC just as easily), but in this case, it appears like a rewarding challenge for you and the player.
Friendly reminder that alignment/alignment shift doesn't force any actions to be taken, nor does it impose any expectations.
Also, "it's what my character would do" isn't always a good justification for any action either.
I think it does. An evil character who goes around helping orphans, donating to the poor and never doing any evil actions is in fact not an evil character. Because a werewolf is not free to change his alignment, he must act like a chaotic evil character would act. A lawful good character who hangs out with a chaotic evil character and doesn't mind his evil actions is in fact not lawful good. Most importantly this is a curse and as such, it begs the question of whether or not a lawful good character would ever allow their friend to continue this path toward darkness and not cure them of the curse. Remember in game terms the curse is against the character's will (even if the player himself is enjoying being overpowered).
It is believable that such a character might play the fighter or rogue and use them to his own benefit. But if you really crave the power of a werewolf, it is really silly that you would try to play a cleric/paladin who can cure you in an instant.
So I do think if you are chaotic evil, there is an expectation that you act chaotic evil. I.e. you can't share the same alignment as Darth Vader and walk around being acting like Yoda, you should be acting like Darth Vader.
After being infected with lycanthropy, my warlock negotiated a deal with Asmodeus' Houndmaster to control the curse in exchange for 1) any evil items of power that come into his possession; and 2) certain services to be rendered at a future date. Unfortunately the devil was deliberately a bit vague, so it isn't entirely clear if the "control" will actually keep the warlock from eventually turning evil.
He started out as lawful good, but Barovia is doing a number on him, and between that and the imp whispering in his ear he's becoming more and more convinced that it will come down to defeating Strahd or preserving his soul - and he's willing to make that sacrifice. For the sake of the party, he'll hold out as long as he can, but he'll do what needs to be done to acquire the power they need.
Mechanically, I don't want to outshine the rest of the party, so I'll be careful to play him more conservatively to avoid triggering a deadly blood rage. Not to mention stirring up some delicious drama between party members who want to cure him and those who want to use him!
The very act of having immunity to all non-magical non-silver attacks is essentially automatically outshining everyone else because you literally can't be damaged in almost every encounter.
Alignment is not a hard and fast rule, and doesn't really mean much mechanically. Your individual campaigns might make it so, but not everyone plays with your rules.
Mechanically, some spells and some magical items behave differently according to the alignment. So there you have a first reason to care about alignment.
Secondly, as DM I would impose very different attitude from NPCs based on characters' alignment.
At the end of the day, if a character affected by lycantropy is forced to shift the alignment (on the spot, gradually, with CHA saves....) it is up to the DM. But lycantropy should have consequences in this regard, imho.
The very act of having immunity to all non-magical non-silver attacks is essentially automatically outshining everyone else because you literally can't be damaged in almost every encounter.
That's a fair concern, but it's only really significant if you're in melee range: as a warlock, I usually play this character back from the front lines where he won't be hurt. We have enough tanky characters that in past encounters I've only rarely taken any damage. When you don't take damage normally, immunity has little impact.
It is, of course, the DM's prerogative to take it away if it does become an issue.
Kerrigan, gold dragonborn pact of the chain fiend warlock (8)/favored soul sorcerer (3): Survived Strahd Roland Crowe, stout halfling pirate (7): off working other angles while the party fights giants Alekhine Dorvanellyn, eladrin bladesinger (7): Fighting giants
The very act of having immunity to all non-magical non-silver attacks is essentially automatically outshining everyone else because you literally can't be damaged in almost every encounter.
That's a fair concern, but it's only really significant if you're in melee range: as a warlock, I usually play this character back from the front lines where he won't be hurt. We have enough tanky characters that in past encounters I've only rarely taken any damage. When you don't take damage normally, immunity has little impact.
It is, of course, the DM's prerogative to take it away if it does become an issue.
Sounds like a mmo perspective. Any intelligent creature isn't going to continue to attack only from the front and with any significant intelligence, a sorcerer is going to be target number one. Same tactics you guys would use. Seriously doubt you guys just leave the sorcerer along until everyone else dies. The monsters shouldn't be doing that either. Granted the lesser intelligent ones would attack whatever is in front of them.
So I do think it is a significant thing that you can do whatever you want without being hurt.
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D&D Beyond FoundersI can't see anything in the Monster Manual, under Lycanthropes, about a player not retaining the character.
Certainly, previous editions of D&D said the character became an npc, but 5e doesn't say that (unless I am just missing the wording somewhere).
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Also, Werewolf, Weretiger and Werebear have Expertise in Perception. That is nice.
The real question is, what was this character like BEFORE he was bitten? I'd argue that 99% of Good characters would never embrace something that would put innocents in danger. I'd also argue that a good number of Neutral players wouldn't want to put their friends/companions in danger. You almost HAVE to already be evil (or at least leaning that way) to ever think about embracing lycanthropy. The only exception is maybe the good ones (like werebear), but even then, you'd want to go live with your own kind until you learn to control it (because you wouldn't want to accidentally put others in danger).
Personally, I'd first ask what his CHARACTER would do (not what the clearly min-maxing type of player would do). I'd then tell him that if he'd submit to the blood lust and murder, that he's evil and he's now an NPC. Because, trust me, he'll either play it poorly and won't RP it to be the blood lusting murder machine that werewolves are, or he'll play it correctly and the rest of the group will get upset.
Also, Strahd would probably not take to kindly to a werewolf out of his control. Which is scarier than anything that player could do to the party.
Click Here to Download my Lancer Class w/ Dragoon and Legionnaire Archetypes via DM's Guild - Pay What You Want
Click Here to Download the Mind Flayer: Thoon Hulk converted from 4e via DM's Guild
“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
I find myself dealing with a similar situation, the party Rogue was bitten and failed his save, but here is how I plan on handling it for discussion sake:
1) He was just bitten, and since I'm on a very time controlled campaign (do something before this date or really bad things happen), I'm allowing him some time to decide to embrace or fight the effects.
2) He's not going to get the damage immunity until his first changing. The curse is still doing its work on him. He did wake up the next morning with the 15 strength, and feeling a bit more aggressive (which he did play off well in a later encounter).
3) He went Assassin at level 3, before he was bitten, as his taste for battle and an internal bloodlust was already growing. So he had already slipped to Chaotic Neutral. Moving deeper into the alignment pool would be in character, especially as...
4) Each day, I'm going to have him make a Cha save, dc 12 (same as the the WW's infection DC). Each failure, his desire for blood is going to increase as the curse takes control. I haven't decided how many failures before he's not much more than a slavering beast. 3 or 5 given the timeline. After 3, he's moved into evil territory for sure.
5) If he decides to embrace it, I've planted hooks for finding a teacher, from possibly a good group of werebears, Shifters, or such as a way to help counter the alignment change, but he is going to have to work for it, and may not have the time to pull it off.
6) I have a Paladin of the Ancients of Corellon (using 4e PHB dieties in my homebrew), and a Priestess of Melora in the party to help keep him in check, and the players understand that if he goes too wild, they will have to put him down. The cleric is the one who diagnosed his issues after being bitten and is fully aware of his condition, and they are in wait and see mode.
7) I ruled Greater Restoration is needed to cure him outright, and now am deciding if it should be made available in the city they are in, or if they have to quest to find one before any of the group casters can learn the spell.
8) The first full moon, barring some serious intervention, all the gloves are off, berserk murder machine on a rampage. It so happens, the first full moon coincides with the plans of some of my NPCs on that timeline I mentioned earlier. It could be a wild night.
What was his alignment before he went assassin and why did you make him change it? Just curious, because not all assassins necessarily enjoy killing. Nor does their killing necessarily make them more chaotic or less good than any of the other roguish archetypes.
For example: a local thieve's guild is taken over by an evil leader. While the guild was always an organized crime ring, they tended to leave innocents alone (for the most part). But now there have been numerous more heinous crimes (like murder, ****, etc...) that have all led back to this new leader. Someone in the government (or the church, or maybe just a noble who was a victim) might hire an assassin to kill the leader quietly, because an outright attempt to crack down on that guild by the government might cause an all-out war in the streets. The assassin is doing a good deed (protecting the innocents from the guild) and is ensuring that law and order is maintained.
Sure, the act of murder might be considered both evil and against the law, but in this case an assassin could be LG and not have any qualms about doing the job.
Click Here to Download my Lancer Class w/ Dragoon and Legionnaire Archetypes via DM's Guild - Pay What You Want
Click Here to Download the Mind Flayer: Thoon Hulk converted from 4e via DM's Guild
“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
He was pretty much neutral, a thief for hire, and the player described his choice of assassin and his own alignment shift with it as his character's liking his taste for blood and combat after the first few encounters. It all sounded reasonable to me, so let him run with it. The new lycanthropy angle just makes it more interesting as he progresses.
Ah, makes sense, though I'd probably argue with him that a "taste for blood" is more evil than chaotic.
Click Here to Download my Lancer Class w/ Dragoon and Legionnaire Archetypes via DM's Guild - Pay What You Want
Click Here to Download the Mind Flayer: Thoon Hulk converted from 4e via DM's Guild
“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
I agree. The way he's playing it, he's getting more erratic (chaotic), and still dealing with the bloodthirsty part. He hasn't acted out of anything but self defense, yet.
After being infected with lycanthropy, my warlock negotiated a deal with Asmodeus' Houndmaster to control the curse in exchange for 1) any evil items of power that come into his possession; and 2) certain services to be rendered at a future date. Unfortunately the devil was deliberately a bit vague, so it isn't entirely clear if the "control" will actually keep the warlock from eventually turning evil.
He started out as lawful good, but Barovia is doing a number on him, and between that and the imp whispering in his ear he's becoming more and more convinced that it will come down to defeating Strahd or preserving his soul - and he's willing to make that sacrifice. For the sake of the party, he'll hold out as long as he can, but he'll do what needs to be done to acquire the power they need.
Mechanically, I don't want to outshine the rest of the party, so I'll be careful to play him more conservatively to avoid triggering a deadly blood rage. Not to mention stirring up some delicious drama between party members who want to cure him and those who want to use him!
Kerrigan, gold dragonborn pact of the chain fiend warlock (8)/favored soul sorcerer (3): Survived Strahd
Roland Crowe, stout halfling pirate (7): off working other angles while the party fights giants
Alekhine Dorvanellyn, eladrin bladesinger (7): Fighting giants
Friendly reminder that alignment/alignment shift doesn't force any actions to be taken, nor does it impose any expectations.
Also, "it's what my character would do" isn't always a good justification for any action either.
Alignment is not a hard and fast rule, and doesn't really mean much mechanically. Your individual campaigns might make it so, but not everyone plays with your rules.
I think most do not care the alignment.
Mechanically, some spells and some magical items behave differently according to the alignment. So there you have a first reason to care about alignment.
Secondly, as DM I would impose very different attitude from NPCs based on characters' alignment.
At the end of the day, if a character affected by lycantropy is forced to shift the alignment (on the spot, gradually, with CHA saves....) it is up to the DM. But lycantropy should have consequences in this regard, imho.
It is, of course, the DM's prerogative to take it away if it does become an issue.
Kerrigan, gold dragonborn pact of the chain fiend warlock (8)/favored soul sorcerer (3): Survived Strahd
Roland Crowe, stout halfling pirate (7): off working other angles while the party fights giants
Alekhine Dorvanellyn, eladrin bladesinger (7): Fighting giants