If a person multiclasses into say four levels of Paladin and 16 levels of Sorcerer (using highest level to show the extreme) then according to the multiclassing rules they are an 18th level caster for determining spell slots, Half the Paladin level and all the Sorcerer.
This leads to an interesting occurrence with the signature Paladin spell Divine Smite. A first level spell that does extra 2d8 radiant damage and it can be upcast to doe an extra d8 per level of the slot above 1. Fair enough.
What his means though is a Paladin that is 20th level can do 4d8 extra because their maximum spell slot is 5 while the Sorcerer Paladin who has up to 9th level slots can do an extra +8d8 dmg upcasting the spell four levels beyond the single class character.
Divine Smite is only a Paladin spell. One could rule that since Paladin's only get five levels of spells that no more than the benefit of a 5th level spell slot can be obtained from upcasting which would even this out. However, that is not in the rules at all and it pretty much implies the spellcasting abilities from more than one class add to each other.
What is everyone's opinion of this. I can see this getting hairy to apply in game across the board given the number of spells that cross some classes and not others.
If you want to use a 9th-level slot to do an extra 4d8 damage to a single target, or even an extra 8d8 on a crit, no DM in the world is going to tell you no given all the other things you could be doing with that spell slot instead
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Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Yea I have to agree with Anton and not see any issues here. This is within the rules and upcasting a low-level spell isn't going to be more powerful than casting a high-level spell tbh (especially when all we're talking about is additional damage dice).
I disagree regarding the utility of the spell at a 9th level slot used this way..
The damage is radiant, it is an extra 10 to 11d8 damage on top of the attack and you get to cast it after you know you have hit making it all automatic, no rolls, no saves.
Sure a Meteor Swarm is more effective generally however, if you are fighting a Balrog, its on you and you get one of your attacks to hit then that use of the spell is going to be extremely more helpful than a meteor swarm and not wasted. This also does not account for the number of 6th, 7th and 8th level slots available that can be applied both increasing not just the damage but the number of times the spell can be cast. Remember, I chose 20th level to highlight the extreme case.
The question is should spellcasters be able to out do the original class. If I have two players, one single classing as a Paladin and another just dipping into it I could see this getting to be an issue with resentment eventually. I can also see how the other way is OK as well. The Paladin can't up cast beyond 5th.
The extra damage is 8d8 not 4d8 (16d8 on a crit). The 4d8 is the difference between a 5th level slot and the 9th.
And it is not just the one 9th level slot, it is every 6th, 7th and 8th level slot as well. I am just using 20th level as the extreme example here.
The issue is the Single Class Paladin can be outdone by someone dipping into the Paladin class. They can only upcast to level 5. Therefore should a rule be in place limiting up casting to a maximum of slots available to the class that can actually cast the spell. BTW this could affect certain Ranger spells as well. Anything that is class specific.
At level 5 Paladin gets Extra Attack, at level 11 Paladin gets Radiant Strikes (or Improved Divine Smites in 2014). So the passive DPR of a level 20 Paladin using a Longsword is
Or at a 65% chance to hit, 5% chance to critical hit... 2*(9*0.7+10*0.65) or 25.6.
Now your Paladin 4/Sorcerer 16 does what? Weapon Damage Die*(HitChance+CritChance)+(Attack Modifier+Weapon Enchantment Bonus+Duelling)*HitChance or 9.65.
The pure Paladin is doing 15.95 more damage per round without any spells being cast.
So +8d8 is ~36, that is a big smite but it's really not doing much more when you consider just how much damage is lost from multiclassing. At this point of Paladin 4/Sorcerer 16, you're more of a Sorcerer than you are Paladin, using weapon attacks isn't worthwhile really. If you went Paladin 5/Sorcerer 15 and just sacrifice a Feat/ASI, you'd at least get Extra Attack, alone that is adding damage and still counts as an 18th level caster under 2024 rules (tho not under 2014 rules, iirc).
there is also other Paladin specific spells that just add far more damage than Divine Smite, like Spirit Shroud (Paladin/Warlock) or Holy Weapon (Paladin). Holy Weapon is an additional 2d8 for 1 hour from a 5th level spell slot, that can last a few encounters. And let's not get started on better weapons than Longsword, such as Polearms... which also benefit from such spells and Radiant Strikes.
If you want to multiclass from Paladin to Sorcerer, my advice would be to get Paladin to 11, to get Radiant Strikes, then take 9 levels in Sorcerer to become a 15th level spell caster and getting an 8th level spell slot but I believe Bard works far better due to College of Valor subclass. Alternatively take 9 levels in Warlock to get 2 5th level pact slots that recover on short rest.
Sorcerer can still work but Bard and Warlock are just vastly better choices for Paladin, as Bard you pick College of Valor for the busted cantrip per attack action or as Warlock you take Pact of the Blade to use Charisma as your attack modifier, for a subclass, Archfey actually seems to be the best match for Paladin, the Misty step options have good synergy with Paladin.
EDIT: I assume this build is meant to be having some true strike or booming blade in it somewhere, since only making 1 attack, why not just cast a cantrip anyways? Of course you can also quicken spell to get a 2nd attack but you can only do that 8 times at level 16 sorcerer before you need to start burning spell slots to power the metamagics, overall it's a pretty poor build still. You critical on the 1st strike then you Divine Smite, you do 2d8+20d8+static damage, while the pure paladin does 2d8+2d8+12d8+static damage. So it's really 22d8 vs 16d8, only it isn't because a Paladin will be casting holy weapon and using 4th level slots for smite, which is actually 2d8+2d8+4d8+12d8 or 20d8. Sure you can use cantrips but you'll only critical 1 in 20 rounds (or around 1 in 10 with Oath of the Ancients) while the pure Paladin with extra attack is a lot closer too getting a critical 1 in 10 rounds (ancients closer to 1 in 5)...
as a 4 Paladin/16 Sorcerer, I'd be more likely to avoid being in melee range and relying on ranged cantrips, not melee attacks, you have less HP and don't even have Paladin's awesome Aura of Protection and so you're much more vulnerable than an actual pure Paladin ever is while you can maintain a good AC but still... a 9th level spell slot really wants a 9th level spell, which you don't have, still a 9th level fireball seems a much better use of the slot than 9th level Divine Smite, when used against a group. /EDIT.
TL;DR You can make this multiclass (Paladin 4/Sorcerer 16) but it's nowhere near as good as just being a Paladin 20. There are other paladin multiclass builds which are stronger than a Paladin 20 and most of those are generally considered to be fine to run in campaigns.
The damage is radiant, it is an extra 10 to 11d8 damage on top of the attack and you get to cast it after you know you have hit making it all automatic, no rolls, no saves.
You weren't comparing it to a basic cast, you were comparing a 5th-level upcast to a 9th-level upcast
Even if you do compare 1st to 9th though, it's still worse than power word kill, and that's far from your best 9th-level spell option as a sorcerer
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I may be reading a bit too much into the OP's comments, but I believe the underlying frustration was brought up in the Paladin subforum before: Some things that "make a paladin a paladin", don't actually get better as you gain paladin levels as fast as if you had taken caster levels instead for upcast potential.
Paladins get Divine Smite, a signature spell, but can only upcast it to 5th level, where—as pointed out here—if you multiclass into Sorcerer or Bard you can upcast it all the way. Paladins get Find Steed, but—as pointed out in another thread—it can only be upcast to 5th level making caster-multiclassed paladins better at summoning steeds. Paladins and their subclasses get access to other spells that simply can't be upcast as much.
I think what's missed in these posts, besides the debate on whether you'd actually want to spend a level 9 spell slot upcasting those things, is that there are plenty of Paladin features that DO get better as you level up as a Paladin. Their Aura is a big one, but extra attack, d10 HD, radiant strikes, channel divinity options, and many non-spell subclass features are only available if you go all-in as a Paladin.
The question is should spellcasters be able to out do the original class. If I have two players, one single classing as a Paladin and another just dipping into it I could see this getting to be an issue with resentment eventually. I can also see how the other way is OK as well. The Paladin can't up cast beyond 5th.
The answer is that they won't. If you spend 16 levels of Sorcerer to run around hitting things with a melee weapon then you are highly unlikely to be more useful to your party than you would have been if you spent those levels in Paladin. Yes some of your smites might be really big hits but everything in-between is going to be a lot worse than a pure Paladin.
I mean you keep looking at the 4d8 extra Smite damage but you could do 12d6 (radiant) in a 60ft radius with Sunburst or 7d8+30 (necrotic) with Finger of Death. And Dominate Monster or Power Word Stun would also be quite helpful in your Balrog example.
Best smite performance is actually Paladin-11/Full Caster-9 -- 8th level divine smite + improved divine smite on two attacks is better than 9th level divine smite. Level 12-19 features on paladin are kind of underwhelming, though you may want to pick up the ASI at 12.
Tier 3 is kind of problematic for most classes that aren't full casters.
Paladins get Divine Smite, a signature spell, but can only upcast it to 5th level, where—as pointed out here—if you multiclass into Sorcerer or Bard you can upcast it all the way. Paladins get Find Steed, but—as pointed out in another thread—it can only be upcast to 5th level making caster-multiclassed paladins better at summoning steeds. Paladins and their subclasses get access to other spells that simply can't be upcast as much.
Paladin is the broad class that combines support, resiliency, and damage. Multiclasses being able to out do Paladin in 2 things of the at least 5 core aspects of the Paladin isn't a problem, considering all the stuff the give up to do that. That is the whole thing about Multiclassing, you choose to double up on one narrow aspect of your character while giving up the well-roundedness of a single-class character. Or you Multiclass to increase versatility of your character at the expense of the specific power of a single class.
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If a person multiclasses into say four levels of Paladin and 16 levels of Sorcerer (using highest level to show the extreme) then according to the multiclassing rules they are an 18th level caster for determining spell slots, Half the Paladin level and all the Sorcerer.
This leads to an interesting occurrence with the signature Paladin spell Divine Smite. A first level spell that does extra 2d8 radiant damage and it can be upcast to doe an extra d8 per level of the slot above 1. Fair enough.
What his means though is a Paladin that is 20th level can do 4d8 extra because their maximum spell slot is 5 while the Sorcerer Paladin who has up to 9th level slots can do an extra +8d8 dmg upcasting the spell four levels beyond the single class character.
Divine Smite is only a Paladin spell. One could rule that since Paladin's only get five levels of spells that no more than the benefit of a 5th level spell slot can be obtained from upcasting which would even this out. However, that is not in the rules at all and it pretty much implies the spellcasting abilities from more than one class add to each other.
What is everyone's opinion of this. I can see this getting hairy to apply in game across the board given the number of spells that cross some classes and not others.
If you want to use a 9th-level slot to do an extra 4d8 damage to a single target, or even an extra 8d8 on a crit, no DM in the world is going to tell you no given all the other things you could be doing with that spell slot instead
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Yea I have to agree with Anton and not see any issues here. This is within the rules and upcasting a low-level spell isn't going to be more powerful than casting a high-level spell tbh (especially when all we're talking about is additional damage dice).
I disagree regarding the utility of the spell at a 9th level slot used this way..
The damage is radiant, it is an extra 10 to 11d8 damage on top of the attack and you get to cast it after you know you have hit making it all automatic, no rolls, no saves.
Sure a Meteor Swarm is more effective generally however, if you are fighting a Balrog, its on you and you get one of your attacks to hit then that use of the spell is going to be extremely more helpful than a meteor swarm and not wasted. This also does not account for the number of 6th, 7th and 8th level slots available that can be applied both increasing not just the damage but the number of times the spell can be cast. Remember, I chose 20th level to highlight the extreme case.
The question is should spellcasters be able to out do the original class. If I have two players, one single classing as a Paladin and another just dipping into it I could see this getting to be an issue with resentment eventually. I can also see how the other way is OK as well. The Paladin can't up cast beyond 5th.
The extra damage is 8d8 not 4d8 (16d8 on a crit). The 4d8 is the difference between a 5th level slot and the 9th.
And it is not just the one 9th level slot, it is every 6th, 7th and 8th level slot as well. I am just using 20th level as the extreme example here.
The issue is the Single Class Paladin can be outdone by someone dipping into the Paladin class. They can only upcast to level 5. Therefore should a rule be in place limiting up casting to a maximum of slots available to the class that can actually cast the spell. BTW this could affect certain Ranger spells as well. Anything that is class specific.
At level 5 Paladin gets Extra Attack, at level 11 Paladin gets Radiant Strikes (or Improved Divine Smites in 2014). So the passive DPR of a level 20 Paladin using a Longsword is
2*((Weapon Damage Die+Radiant Strikes)*(HitChance+CritChance)+(Attack Modifier+Weapon Enchantment Bonus+Duelling)*HitChance)
Or at a 65% chance to hit, 5% chance to critical hit... 2*(9*0.7+10*0.65) or 25.6.
Now your Paladin 4/Sorcerer 16 does what? Weapon Damage Die*(HitChance+CritChance)+(Attack Modifier+Weapon Enchantment Bonus+Duelling)*HitChance or 9.65.
The pure Paladin is doing 15.95 more damage per round without any spells being cast.
So +8d8 is ~36, that is a big smite but it's really not doing much more when you consider just how much damage is lost from multiclassing. At this point of Paladin 4/Sorcerer 16, you're more of a Sorcerer than you are Paladin, using weapon attacks isn't worthwhile really. If you went Paladin 5/Sorcerer 15 and just sacrifice a Feat/ASI, you'd at least get Extra Attack, alone that is adding damage and still counts as an 18th level caster under 2024 rules (tho not under 2014 rules, iirc).
there is also other Paladin specific spells that just add far more damage than Divine Smite, like Spirit Shroud (Paladin/Warlock) or Holy Weapon (Paladin). Holy Weapon is an additional 2d8 for 1 hour from a 5th level spell slot, that can last a few encounters. And let's not get started on better weapons than Longsword, such as Polearms... which also benefit from such spells and Radiant Strikes.
If you want to multiclass from Paladin to Sorcerer, my advice would be to get Paladin to 11, to get Radiant Strikes, then take 9 levels in Sorcerer to become a 15th level spell caster and getting an 8th level spell slot but I believe Bard works far better due to College of Valor subclass. Alternatively take 9 levels in Warlock to get 2 5th level pact slots that recover on short rest.
Sorcerer can still work but Bard and Warlock are just vastly better choices for Paladin, as Bard you pick College of Valor for the busted cantrip per attack action or as Warlock you take Pact of the Blade to use Charisma as your attack modifier, for a subclass, Archfey actually seems to be the best match for Paladin, the Misty step options have good synergy with Paladin.
EDIT: I assume this build is meant to be having some true strike or booming blade in it somewhere, since only making 1 attack, why not just cast a cantrip anyways? Of course you can also quicken spell to get a 2nd attack but you can only do that 8 times at level 16 sorcerer before you need to start burning spell slots to power the metamagics, overall it's a pretty poor build still. You critical on the 1st strike then you Divine Smite, you do 2d8+20d8+static damage, while the pure paladin does 2d8+2d8+12d8+static damage. So it's really 22d8 vs 16d8, only it isn't because a Paladin will be casting holy weapon and using 4th level slots for smite, which is actually 2d8+2d8+4d8+12d8 or 20d8. Sure you can use cantrips but you'll only critical 1 in 20 rounds (or around 1 in 10 with Oath of the Ancients) while the pure Paladin with extra attack is a lot closer too getting a critical 1 in 10 rounds (ancients closer to 1 in 5)...
as a 4 Paladin/16 Sorcerer, I'd be more likely to avoid being in melee range and relying on ranged cantrips, not melee attacks, you have less HP and don't even have Paladin's awesome Aura of Protection and so you're much more vulnerable than an actual pure Paladin ever is while you can maintain a good AC but still... a 9th level spell slot really wants a 9th level spell, which you don't have, still a 9th level fireball seems a much better use of the slot than 9th level Divine Smite, when used against a group. /EDIT.
TL;DR You can make this multiclass (Paladin 4/Sorcerer 16) but it's nowhere near as good as just being a Paladin 20. There are other paladin multiclass builds which are stronger than a Paladin 20 and most of those are generally considered to be fine to run in campaigns.
You weren't comparing it to a basic cast, you were comparing a 5th-level upcast to a 9th-level upcast
Even if you do compare 1st to 9th though, it's still worse than power word kill, and that's far from your best 9th-level spell option as a sorcerer
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I may be reading a bit too much into the OP's comments, but I believe the underlying frustration was brought up in the Paladin subforum before: Some things that "make a paladin a paladin", don't actually get better as you gain paladin levels as fast as if you had taken caster levels instead for upcast potential.
Paladins get Divine Smite, a signature spell, but can only upcast it to 5th level, where—as pointed out here—if you multiclass into Sorcerer or Bard you can upcast it all the way.
Paladins get Find Steed, but—as pointed out in another thread—it can only be upcast to 5th level making caster-multiclassed paladins better at summoning steeds.
Paladins and their subclasses get access to other spells that simply can't be upcast as much.
I think what's missed in these posts, besides the debate on whether you'd actually want to spend a level 9 spell slot upcasting those things, is that there are plenty of Paladin features that DO get better as you level up as a Paladin. Their Aura is a big one, but extra attack, d10 HD, radiant strikes, channel divinity options, and many non-spell subclass features are only available if you go all-in as a Paladin.
The answer is that they won't. If you spend 16 levels of Sorcerer to run around hitting things with a melee weapon then you are highly unlikely to be more useful to your party than you would have been if you spent those levels in Paladin. Yes some of your smites might be really big hits but everything in-between is going to be a lot worse than a pure Paladin.
I mean you keep looking at the 4d8 extra Smite damage but you could do 12d6 (radiant) in a 60ft radius with Sunburst or 7d8+30 (necrotic) with Finger of Death. And Dominate Monster or Power Word Stun would also be quite helpful in your Balrog example.
Best smite performance is actually Paladin-11/Full Caster-9 -- 8th level divine smite + improved divine smite on two attacks is better than 9th level divine smite. Level 12-19 features on paladin are kind of underwhelming, though you may want to pick up the ASI at 12.
Tier 3 is kind of problematic for most classes that aren't full casters.
Paladin is the broad class that combines support, resiliency, and damage. Multiclasses being able to out do Paladin in 2 things of the at least 5 core aspects of the Paladin isn't a problem, considering all the stuff the give up to do that. That is the whole thing about Multiclassing, you choose to double up on one narrow aspect of your character while giving up the well-roundedness of a single-class character. Or you Multiclass to increase versatility of your character at the expense of the specific power of a single class.