I'm fiddling with a Warlock (5)/Rogue (5)-build and have ended up not really believing what a Surprise Round would look like for this guy. Please correct me if I'm wrong:
Can this be right? 12d6 + 8d8 + 12 on a Surprise Round? When does the target stop being surprised? After the first attack or when the attacker's turn is over - after the first attack or after all three?
looks correct to me. As per the surprise rules, the target will remain surprised until the end of their turn during the first round of combat.
Please note that there is no such thing as a "surprise round" in 5th edition. Creatures that are surprised will be unable to act during their turn, but are then not counted as being surprised after their turn has occurred. As an assassin, this means that all of your attacks against that creature qualify for the bonuses.
The assassin subclass is pretty powerful when it manages to actually surprise opponents and act first (if you roll low on initiative, you're not going to get those surprise bonuses), which seems to be a design feature to trade off that it's often difficult for an assassin to manage to get that surprise situation in an adventuring scenario.
Improved pact weapon doesn't give you access to a hand crossbow, just all the other bows and crossbows. As such, I can't see a way to get your bonus extra attack unless you found a magic hand crossbow and made that your pact weapon. Are they easily located?
"You can use your action to create a pact weapon in your empty hand. You can choose the form that this melee weapon takes each time you create it (see chapter 5 for weapon options). You are proficient with it while you wield it. This weapon counts as magical for the purpose of overcoming resistance and immunity to nonmagical attacks and damage."
Doubled on a crit, this post is assuming that the assassin rolls higher in the initiative than the target (so that they remain surprised, guaranteeing a crit). All rolled dice for a critical hit are doubled.
"You can use your action to create a pact weapon in your empty hand. You can choose the form that this melee weapon takes each time you create it (see chapter 5 for weapon options). You are proficient with it while you wield it. This weapon counts as magical for the purpose of overcoming resistance and immunity to nonmagical attacks and damage."
Palmate
Hex Warrior from the Hexblade patron allows any weapon that isn't 2-handed, so a hand crossbow is viable.
Is there a restriction on the type of weapon you can transform into your pact weapon? You are limited on the form you can conjure a weapon as. But if you bond a magic weapon using the Pact of the Blade feature I don't believe you need any additional features to bond a hand Crossbow, assuming the crossbow is magic (magic hand crossbows are not at all common.)
The crossbow doesn't need to be your pact weapon for this build to work at all though. Any dual wielding character could get the same benefits except the +1 bonus to the off-hand attack associated with Improved Pact of the Blade. You could stab-stab with your pact Rapier and followup with a single crossbow bolt Bonus Action. Or you could make it two short swords, or take Dual Wielder and *gasp* double Rapiers (but the fashion police will hunt you down.)
As I read the OP I was expecting to see three Sneak Attacks and three Eldritch Smites. But you got it, only the first hit gets the full benefit. (Though you can opt to E-Smite on another hit instead.)
Another option to add to the list above. You can always Hex-Stab-Stab for 4d6 instead of the 2d6+4 for the x-bow bonus action.
ASSASSINATE: Starting at 3rd level, you are at your deadliest when you get the drop on your enemies. You have advantage on attack rolls against any creature that hasn't taken a turn in the combat yet. In addition, any hit you score against a creature that is surprised is a critical hit.
The DM determines who might be surprised. If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter. If you're surprised, you can't move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can't take a reaction until that turn ends. A member of a group can be surprised even if the other members aren't.
PACT OF THE BLADE: You can use your action to create a pact weapon in your empty hand. You can choose the form that this melee weapon takes each time you create it (see chapter 5 for weapon options). You are proficient with it while you wield it. This weapon counts as magical for the purpose of overcoming resistance and immunity to nonmagical attacks and damage. Your pact weapon disappears if it is more than 5 feet away from you for 1 minute or more. It also disappears if you use this feature again, if you dismiss the weapon (no action required), or if you die. You can transform one magic weapon into your pact weapon by performing a special ritual while you hold the weapon. You perform the ritual over the course of I hour, which can be done during a short rest. You can then dismiss the weapon, shunting it into an extradimensional space, and it appears whenever you create your pact weapon thereafter. You can't affect an artifact or a sentient weapon in this way. The weapon ceases being your pact weapon if you die. if you perform the 1-hour ritual on a different weapon, or if you use a 1-hour ritual to break your bond to it. The weapon appears at your feet if it is in the extradimensional space when the bond breaks.
IMPROVED PACT WEAPON Prerequisite: Pact of the Blade feature - You can use any weapon you summon with your Pact of the Blade feature as a spellcasting focus for your warlock spells. In addition, the weapon gains a +1 bonus to its attack and damage rolls, unless it is a magic weapon that already has a bonus to those rolls. Finally, the weapon you conjure can be a shortbow, longbow, light crossbow, or heavy crossbow.
ELDRITCH SMITE Prerequisite: 5th level, Pact of the Blade feature - Once per turn when you hit a creature with your pact weapon, you can expend a warlock spell slot to deal an extra 1d8 force damage to the target, plus another 1d8 per level of the spell slot, and you can knock the target prone if it is Huge or smaller.
From my reading here I believe that no you cannot make a hand crossbow because the original ruling says melee only, but Improved Pact Weapon allows only the four listed. You also cannot use Eldritch Smite on a non-pact weapon, but according to this: http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/rules-answers-april-2016 You can make a Hand Crossbow your pact weapon if it is a magic weapon itself. So you could get to use it. In the wording of the Surprise ruling, it seems they only stop being surprised at the end of their turn as I think was mentioned above. This does mean that every attack could benefit from an Eldritch Smite (if you had 3 slots, but you have 2) so you should up the damage. All in all, you are not actually calculating the full potential of this attack. Yes, it would be this strong if not stronger as you levelled into Warlock to get better spell slots, but it is a massive damage investment early on. This works if you want to end the fight before it begins or if you need to level the playing field with something too powerful, but you would be at a downside for the later fight.
Hey guys..
I'm fiddling with a Warlock (5)/Rogue (5)-build and have ended up not really believing what a Surprise Round would look like for this guy. Please correct me if I'm wrong:
Warlock-related
* Invocations: Improved Pact Weapon (hand crossbow +1)/ Eldritch Smite (1d8+1d8 per sac' spell slot) / Thirsting Blade (2x Attack)
* Spell Slots: 3rd level
Feats:
* Crossbow Expert (Extra Attack bonus action)
Rogue-related:
* Sneak Attack (3d6) / Assassin Archetype (Assassinate; advantage / crits)
Stats:
* Dex 17 (+3 to hit / +3 damage)
So, to me, the Surprise Round looks like:
Attack #1: Advantage and Crit - 2d6 (piercing) + 6d6 (Sneak Attack) + 8d8 (Eldritch Smite) + 4 (dex & +1)
Attack #2: Advantage and Crit (still surprised?) - 2d6 +4
Attack #3: Advantage and Crit (still surprised?) - 2d6 +4
Can this be right? 12d6 + 8d8 + 12 on a Surprise Round? When does the target stop being surprised? After the first attack or when the attacker's turn is over - after the first attack or after all three?
Not sure how you get your three attacks.
But otherwise, yeah.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
Thirsting Blade Invocation gets you two and Crossbow Expert gets you a bonus action attack with a hand crossbow...
-
View User Profile
-
View Posts
-
Send Message
D&D Beyond FoundersHi there GyldenDamgaard,
looks correct to me. As per the surprise rules, the target will remain surprised until the end of their turn during the first round of combat.
Please note that there is no such thing as a "surprise round" in 5th edition. Creatures that are surprised will be unable to act during their turn, but are then not counted as being surprised after their turn has occurred. As an assassin, this means that all of your attacks against that creature qualify for the bonuses.
The assassin subclass is pretty powerful when it manages to actually surprise opponents and act first (if you roll low on initiative, you're not going to get those surprise bonuses), which seems to be a design feature to trade off that it's often difficult for an assassin to manage to get that surprise situation in an adventuring scenario.
Pun-loving nerd | Faith Elisabeth Lilley | She/Her/Hers | Profile art by Becca Golins
If you need help with homebrew, please post on the homebrew forums, where multiple staff and moderators can read your post and help you!
"We got this, no problem! I'll take the twenty on the left - you guys handle the one on the right!"🔊
Improved pact weapon doesn't give you access to a hand crossbow, just all the other bows and crossbows. As such, I can't see a way to get your bonus extra attack unless you found a magic hand crossbow and made that your pact weapon. Are they easily located?
Damn, you're right... It only gives access to the light crossbow. :(
Thanks for the help everyone.
Why is your sneak attack damage doubled?
Palmate
Also Pact weapon is a Melee weapon per the RoW.
"You can use your action to create a pact weapon in your empty hand. You can choose the form that this melee weapon takes each time you create it (see chapter 5 for weapon options). You are proficient with it while you wield it. This weapon counts as magical for the purpose of overcoming resistance and immunity to nonmagical attacks and damage."
Palmate
Doubled on a crit, this post is assuming that the assassin rolls higher in the initiative than the target (so that they remain surprised, guaranteeing a crit). All rolled dice for a critical hit are doubled.
Hex Warrior from the Hexblade patron allows any weapon that isn't 2-handed, so a hand crossbow is viable.
Is there a restriction on the type of weapon you can transform into your pact weapon? You are limited on the form you can conjure a weapon as. But if you bond a magic weapon using the Pact of the Blade feature I don't believe you need any additional features to bond a hand Crossbow, assuming the crossbow is magic (magic hand crossbows are not at all common.)
The crossbow doesn't need to be your pact weapon for this build to work at all though. Any dual wielding character could get the same benefits except the +1 bonus to the off-hand attack associated with Improved Pact of the Blade. You could stab-stab with your pact Rapier and followup with a single crossbow bolt Bonus Action. Or you could make it two short swords, or take Dual Wielder and *gasp* double Rapiers (but the fashion police will hunt you down.)
As I read the OP I was expecting to see three Sneak Attacks and three Eldritch Smites. But you got it, only the first hit gets the full benefit. (Though you can opt to E-Smite on another hit instead.)
Another option to add to the list above. You can always Hex-Stab-Stab for 4d6 instead of the 2d6+4 for the x-bow bonus action.
Extended Signature
ASSASSINATE: Starting at 3rd level, you are at your deadliest when you get the drop on your enemies. You have advantage on attack rolls against any creature that hasn't taken a turn in the combat yet. In addition, any hit you score against a creature that is surprised is a critical hit.
The DM determines who might be surprised. If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter. If you're surprised, you can't move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can't take a reaction until that turn ends. A member of a group can be surprised even if the other members aren't.
PACT OF THE BLADE: You can use your action to create a pact weapon in your empty hand. You can choose the form that this melee weapon takes each time you create it (see chapter 5 for weapon options). You are proficient with it while you wield it. This weapon counts as magical for the purpose of overcoming resistance and immunity to nonmagical attacks and damage. Your pact weapon disappears if it is more than 5 feet away from you for 1 minute or more. It also disappears if you use this feature again, if you dismiss the weapon (no action required), or if you die. You can transform one magic weapon into your pact weapon by performing a special ritual while you hold the weapon. You perform the ritual over the course of I hour, which can be done during a short rest. You can then dismiss the weapon, shunting it into an extradimensional space, and it appears whenever you create your pact weapon thereafter. You can't affect an artifact or a sentient weapon in this way. The weapon ceases being your pact weapon if you die. if you perform the 1-hour ritual on a different weapon, or if you use a 1-hour ritual to break your bond to it. The weapon appears at your feet if it is in the extradimensional space when the bond breaks.
IMPROVED PACT WEAPON Prerequisite: Pact of the Blade feature - You can use any weapon you summon with your Pact of the Blade feature as a spellcasting focus for your warlock spells. In addition, the weapon gains a +1 bonus to its attack and damage rolls, unless it is a magic weapon that already has a bonus to those rolls. Finally, the weapon you conjure can be a shortbow, longbow, light crossbow, or heavy crossbow.
ELDRITCH SMITE Prerequisite: 5th level, Pact of the Blade feature - Once per turn when you hit a creature with your pact weapon, you can expend a warlock spell slot to deal an extra 1d8 force damage to the target, plus another 1d8 per level of the spell slot, and you can knock the target prone if it is Huge or smaller.
From my reading here I believe that no you cannot make a hand crossbow because the original ruling says melee only, but Improved Pact Weapon allows only the four listed. You also cannot use Eldritch Smite on a non-pact weapon, but according to this: http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/rules-answers-april-2016 You can make a Hand Crossbow your pact weapon if it is a magic weapon itself. So you could get to use it. In the wording of the Surprise ruling, it seems they only stop being surprised at the end of their turn as I think was mentioned above. This does mean that every attack could benefit from an Eldritch Smite (if you had 3 slots, but you have 2) so you should up the damage. All in all, you are not actually calculating the full potential of this attack. Yes, it would be this strong if not stronger as you levelled into Warlock to get better spell slots, but it is a massive damage investment early on. This works if you want to end the fight before it begins or if you need to level the playing field with something too powerful, but you would be at a downside for the later fight.
You can only E-Smite once per turn: "... Once per turn when you hit a creature with your pact weapon ..."
Extended Signature
Ah, thanks for that catch. I missed that line.