Wow, Natrel, this question is wild. My brain hurts just thinking about it.
I'd say that, technically and in an ultra-RAW reading, it's true that damage triggers after you're hit, but I wouldn't allow Ready to be used the way you're proposing, because I consider "resolve the attack" as a whole process, except for some specific game elements like the ones you mentioned.
Resolve the Attack. Make the attack roll, as detailed earlier in this chapter. On a hit, you roll damage unless the particular attack has rules that specify otherwise. Some attacks cause special effects in addition to or instead of damage.
Stepping 5ft back would largely be pointless. As the attack has already happened you are taking damage regardless. You could ready your action to move in case a creature moved to get to you. But then you are taking damage and an opportunity attack.
but this also means you didn’t do any damage the previous round just to move 5ft.
Even if moving somehow prevents damage for an attack that has already hit you (and I don't think it would) then at best you'd be looking at Simultaneous Events and in this scenario it's generally not your turn so your event wouldn't get priority.
One weird exception might be if you set this up on your turn, move away from an enemy which triggers an OA, then you respond to that with your Ready by moving away . . . Again? Or more? I guess? And now he has already used his Reaction so no more OA? I don't know. I don't think any of that really works.
So what's stopping a player from Readying an action to be triggered at that same moment, and say "if an enemy attacks me, I step back 5 feet"?
The fact it's mostly useless? They're only required to be in range when they make the attack roll, so stepping back won't actually prevent them from doing damage.
Even if moving somehow prevents damage for an attack that has already hit you (and I don't think it would) then at best you'd be looking at Simultaneous Events and in this scenario it's generally not your turn so your event wouldn't get priority.
One weird exception might be if you set this up on your turn, move away from an enemy which triggers an OA, then you respond to that with your Ready by moving away . . . Again? Or more? I guess? And now he has already used his Reaction so no more OA? I don't know. I don't think any of that really works.
I think the only real use this would have would be to say that if an enemy gets within 5 ft. you use your ready action to move 30 ft. away. Which if a creature has multiple attacks and can only move 30ft. could be useful against a singular enemy. Against multiple enemies, you probably should have just taken the dodge action.
I do not see where this would even be useful. Let's say a monster gets 3 attacks with their multi-attack. If your character readies an action to dash (move as an action) if attacked... The monster steps up, takes its multi-attack action. They hit, inflict damage. I can see a DM then making one of two choices. Either ALL of the monster's attacks are resolved before your character is allowed to react (in which case the monster gets an additional attack as an opportunity attack for leaving its reach), or the DM rules you can react after the first hit, in which case the monster still gets an opportunity attack.
So instead of taking 3 attacks, your character takes either 4 (first case) or 2 (in the second case). You have lost an action, and are decidedly worse off in the first case, and only slightly better off in the second case. Either way, that's not worth giving up your action.
I would say the better choice would be to take the Dodge action instead, now all attacks directed at your character for the entire round are at disadvantage - or using your action to Dash. Now the monster would need to move twice as far to reach you (and may not be able to take any attacks if it needs to dash to do so).
Ok, to all those who say that it's pointless, keep in mind that I'm trying to use the SAME timing as Shield. If your justification for still applying the damage was true, then Shield would be useless as well, for the exact same reason: "raising your AC by 5 is pointless because the attack has already hit you and you'll still take the damage". Maybe moving 5ft away is a bad example indeed because of opportunity attack. Let's say "use Fey Step to move at a specific location" instead.
TarodNet understood where I was getting at, though. If there are mechanics in this game that allow the player to "cancel" the damage of an attack by changing the conditions that made the attack hit the player after the attack roll has been made, by using a Reaction, then the player could theoretically use their Reaction in a similar way by simply using the Ready action.
His reply also actually correctly answers my question:
Resolve the Attack. Make the attack roll, as detailed earlier in this chapter. On a hit, you roll damage unless the particular attack has rules that specify otherwise. Some attacks cause special effects in addition to or instead of damage.
"unless the particular attack has rules that specify otherwise" That's the important part. The gameplay elements that allow a player to avoid damage from an attack that's already been made are exceptional rules. You can't use them as general rules to justify Readying an action to be triggered at the same timing as these exceptions.
Ok, to all those who say that it's pointless, keep in mind that I'm trying to use the SAME timing as Shield. If your justification for still applying the damage was true, then Shield would be useless as well, for the exact same reason: "raising your AC by 5 is pointless because the attack has already hit you and you'll still take the damage".
Shield works because it specifically calls out that it applies against the triggering attack (versions with more precise terminology would call it an interrupt, not a reaction), however, the problem isn't that the attack has already hit you, the problem is that the sequence for making an attack only actually checks for range, cover, etc, before the attack roll is made, so going out of range doesn't actually prevent the attack from landing.
The check is made before the attack roll is made, and only determine whether the attack can even be made in the first place, so that's irrelevant. Remember there's also a rule about unseen attackers and targets, that says that if your target isn't there when you hit, your attack automatically misses. Also, I think you're missing the point. "Moving 5ft away" is just an example of what a player might attempt doing at that moment. They could also decide to Ready Fey Step, or Thunderwave, or Hold Person, or basically anything that would prevent the attack from succeeding if it works. The real conundrum here is whether a player can even attempt to Ready an action to be triggered at the exact same time as Shield and Defensive Duelist's parrying do.
The check is made before the attack roll is made, and only determine whether the attack can even be made in the first place, so that's irrelevant. Remember there's also a rule about unseen attackersand targets, that says that if your target isn't there when you hit, your attack automatically misses.
I bolded the relevant portion of that rule for this conversation- that is to say, the part that shows how it does not apply to this context. That is the rule for if you're firing blind and pick a space a random, it has no bearing on this scenario.
It's relevant because the situations are similar: a creature made an attack at a location which turned out to be empty space when it hit.
Again, not the point. Forget about the "moving 5ft away" part. Let's say I'm holding the energy for Thunderwave instead, or Misty Step... Whatever. That's not the topic of this thread. The question is about the timing that a player can use to Ready an action.
The real conundrum here is whether a player can even attempt to Ready an action to be triggered at the exact same time as Shield and Defensive Duelist's parrying do.
No. Ready occurs after the trigger. Shield and so on interrupt the trigger.
Yeah, that's basically what TarodNet said, and with that I agree. Shield, Silvery Barbs, Defensive Duelist (and probably others I'm not thinking of right now) all contain wording that specify that the triggering attack is affected by them. They're exceptions to the general rule, they don't constitute one.
Yeah, that's basically what TarodNet said, and with that I agree. Shield, Silvery Barbs, Defensive Duelist (and probably others I'm not thinking of right now)
There are quite a few; readying an action, specifying that it is after the trigger, is more the exception than the rule. Some other examples:
Bardic Inspiration (in reverse -- turn a miss into a hit)
[...] TarodNet understood where I was getting at, though. If there are mechanics in this game that allow the player to "cancel" the damage of an attack by changing the conditions that made the attack hit the player after the attack roll has been made, by using a Reaction, then the player could theoretically use their Reaction in a similar way by simply using the Ready action. [...]
I was getting at your idea because I'm an empathetic and open-minded guy :D You rock, Natrel, keep it up!
If there are mechanics in this game that allow the player to "cancel" the damage of an attack by changing the conditions that made the attack hit the player after the attack roll has been made, by using a Reaction, then the player could theoretically use their Reaction in a similar way by simply using the Ready action.
And yet, you haven't been able to quote those general mechanics. Only the specific exceptions that make the thing you want to do possible, like shield
Since they haven't made an appearance in the thread yet, here's the general rules for the Ready Action. Important part highlighted
You take the Ready action to wait for a particular circumstance before you act. To do so, you take this action on your turn, which lets you act by taking a Reaction before the start of your next turn.
First, you decide what perceivable circumstance will trigger your Reaction. Then, you choose the action you will take in response to that trigger, or you choose to move up to your Speed in response to it. Examples include “If the cultist steps on the trapdoor, I’ll pull the lever that opens it,” and “If the zombie steps next to me, I move away.”
When the trigger occurs, you can either take your Reaction right after the trigger finishes or ignore the trigger.
If the trigger for your Readied action is being hit by a melee attack, you must finish resolving the attack before taking your reaction
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
If you Ready to move when you're hit by an attack, when the trigger occurs, you can take your Reaction right after the trigger finishes, meaning the attack has completely resolved.
Yes, that's what we've been saying. But thanks for summarizing it I guess. At least, there are other ways to use the Ready action to avoid getting attacked, which are much more obvious: - Readying a teleportation ability or spell as soon as an enemy comes into melee range (it works because it's triggered before any attack is made). - Readying a movement as soon as an enemy is less than 10 ft away from you (so before they can make an attack of opportunity).
Yes, that's what we've been saying. But thanks for summarizing it I guess. At least, there are other ways to use the Ready action to avoid getting attacked, which are much more obvious: - Readying a teleportation ability or spell as soon as an enemy comes into melee range (it works because it's triggered before any attack is made). - Readying a movement as soon as an enemy is less than 10 ft away from you (so before they can make an attack of opportunity).
Well, both of those only work if you move to a location they cannot reach with their remaining movement, otherwise they just keep moving and don't attack until they get to where you actually are.
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Many spells, feats, and other abilities in this game trigger such a reaction.
Silvery Barbs, Shield, Defensive Duelist, all of these trigger a reaction after an attack roll is made, but before the damage is dealt.
So what's stopping a player from Readying an action to be triggered at that same moment, and say "if an enemy attacks me, I step back 5 feet"?
The game already has many reactions that are triggered this way, and there doesn't seem to be a limit to when a Ready action can be triggered.
Wow, Natrel, this question is wild. My brain hurts just thinking about it.
I'd say that, technically and in an ultra-RAW reading, it's true that damage triggers after you're hit, but I wouldn't allow Ready to be used the way you're proposing, because I consider "resolve the attack" as a whole process, except for some specific game elements like the ones you mentioned.
EDIT: fix grammar error.
Stepping 5ft back would largely be pointless. As the attack has already happened you are taking damage regardless. You could ready your action to move in case a creature moved to get to you. But then you are taking damage and an opportunity attack.
but this also means you didn’t do any damage the previous round just to move 5ft.
Even if moving somehow prevents damage for an attack that has already hit you (and I don't think it would) then at best you'd be looking at Simultaneous Events and in this scenario it's generally not your turn so your event wouldn't get priority.
One weird exception might be if you set this up on your turn, move away from an enemy which triggers an OA, then you respond to that with your Ready by moving away . . . Again? Or more? I guess? And now he has already used his Reaction so no more OA? I don't know. I don't think any of that really works.
The fact it's mostly useless? They're only required to be in range when they make the attack roll, so stepping back won't actually prevent them from doing damage.
I think the only real use this would have would be to say that if an enemy gets within 5 ft. you use your ready action to move 30 ft. away. Which if a creature has multiple attacks and can only move 30ft. could be useful against a singular enemy. Against multiple enemies, you probably should have just taken the dodge action.
I do not see where this would even be useful. Let's say a monster gets 3 attacks with their multi-attack. If your character readies an action to dash (move as an action) if attacked... The monster steps up, takes its multi-attack action. They hit, inflict damage. I can see a DM then making one of two choices. Either ALL of the monster's attacks are resolved before your character is allowed to react (in which case the monster gets an additional attack as an opportunity attack for leaving its reach), or the DM rules you can react after the first hit, in which case the monster still gets an opportunity attack.
So instead of taking 3 attacks, your character takes either 4 (first case) or 2 (in the second case). You have lost an action, and are decidedly worse off in the first case, and only slightly better off in the second case. Either way, that's not worth giving up your action.
I would say the better choice would be to take the Dodge action instead, now all attacks directed at your character for the entire round are at disadvantage - or using your action to Dash. Now the monster would need to move twice as far to reach you (and may not be able to take any attacks if it needs to dash to do so).
Playing D&D since 1982
Have played every version of the game since Basic (Red Box Set), except that abomination sometimes called 4e.
Ok, to all those who say that it's pointless, keep in mind that I'm trying to use the SAME timing as Shield. If your justification for still applying the damage was true, then Shield would be useless as well, for the exact same reason: "raising your AC by 5 is pointless because the attack has already hit you and you'll still take the damage". Maybe moving 5ft away is a bad example indeed because of opportunity attack. Let's say "use Fey Step to move at a specific location" instead.
TarodNet understood where I was getting at, though. If there are mechanics in this game that allow the player to "cancel" the damage of an attack by changing the conditions that made the attack hit the player after the attack roll has been made, by using a Reaction, then the player could theoretically use their Reaction in a similar way by simply using the Ready action.
His reply also actually correctly answers my question:
"unless the particular attack has rules that specify otherwise"
That's the important part. The gameplay elements that allow a player to avoid damage from an attack that's already been made are exceptional rules. You can't use them as general rules to justify Readying an action to be triggered at the same timing as these exceptions.
Shield works because it specifically calls out that it applies against the triggering attack (versions with more precise terminology would call it an interrupt, not a reaction), however, the problem isn't that the attack has already hit you, the problem is that the sequence for making an attack only actually checks for range, cover, etc, before the attack roll is made, so going out of range doesn't actually prevent the attack from landing.
The check is made before the attack roll is made, and only determine whether the attack can even be made in the first place, so that's irrelevant.
Remember there's also a rule about unseen attackers and targets, that says that if your target isn't there when you hit, your attack automatically misses.
Also, I think you're missing the point. "Moving 5ft away" is just an example of what a player might attempt doing at that moment. They could also decide to Ready Fey Step, or Thunderwave, or Hold Person, or basically anything that would prevent the attack from succeeding if it works.
The real conundrum here is whether a player can even attempt to Ready an action to be triggered at the exact same time as Shield and Defensive Duelist's parrying do.
I bolded the relevant portion of that rule for this conversation- that is to say, the part that shows how it does not apply to this context. That is the rule for if you're firing blind and pick a space a random, it has no bearing on this scenario.
It's relevant because the situations are similar: a creature made an attack at a location which turned out to be empty space when it hit.
Again, not the point. Forget about the "moving 5ft away" part. Let's say I'm holding the energy for Thunderwave instead, or Misty Step... Whatever. That's not the topic of this thread. The question is about the timing that a player can use to Ready an action.
No. Ready occurs after the trigger. Shield and so on interrupt the trigger.
Yeah, that's basically what TarodNet said, and with that I agree. Shield, Silvery Barbs, Defensive Duelist (and probably others I'm not thinking of right now) all contain wording that specify that the triggering attack is affected by them. They're exceptions to the general rule, they don't constitute one.
There are quite a few; readying an action, specifying that it is after the trigger, is more the exception than the rule. Some other examples:
Probably still more that I missed.
I was getting at your idea because I'm an empathetic and open-minded guy :D You rock, Natrel, keep it up!
And yet, you haven't been able to quote those general mechanics. Only the specific exceptions that make the thing you want to do possible, like shield
Since they haven't made an appearance in the thread yet, here's the general rules for the Ready Action. Important part highlighted
If the trigger for your Readied action is being hit by a melee attack, you must finish resolving the attack before taking your reaction
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
If you Ready to move when you're hit by an attack, when the trigger occurs, you can take your Reaction right after the trigger finishes, meaning the attack has completely resolved.
Yes, that's what we've been saying. But thanks for summarizing it I guess.
At least, there are other ways to use the Ready action to avoid getting attacked, which are much more obvious:
- Readying a teleportation ability or spell as soon as an enemy comes into melee range (it works because it's triggered before any attack is made).
- Readying a movement as soon as an enemy is less than 10 ft away from you (so before they can make an attack of opportunity).
Well, both of those only work if you move to a location they cannot reach with their remaining movement, otherwise they just keep moving and don't attack until they get to where you actually are.