I have a player (2 actually) in my recent game who are dwarves, as such they can gain Tremorsense via their Stonecunning feature. As per the wording of this feature in the glossary, Tremorsense does not count as sight.
We got into this small discussion mid-combat:
A Drow mage cast greater invisibility to run away in a combat. The party were unable to attack and he was escaping. The dwarf then used Stonecunning and asked "Can I Fire an arrow in his location?"
I made the argument that since the rules state that Termorsesne is not a form of sight and the drow was about 30 foot away that the player could not make an attack as the only reason they know where the drow was, is due to the termorsense and that would be treating tremorsense as sight. I did however say that they could point out the general direction to other party members (general not specific) and they could take a crack at it. There was a bit of an argument about it as the player stated they were treating it like hitting someone whilst blinded.
I'm questioning here if I have interpreted this rule right and made the correct call or if I have misinterpreted the rule.
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D&D DM Info - Here Discord: ItsScottish#0001 Platform: FoundryVTT Steak: Rare
If they are in range, Tremorsense will tell them where the mage is (even if they are hidden, which they are not). They can attack, but still at disadvantage.
Additionally, unless the mage is making Stealth rolls to move silently, they would know where he is, anyway, and could attack (still at disadvantage) regardless of Tremorsense. Especially since they saw him vanish and know he's running away.
I agree with kenclary, but I have a small detail I'd like to share: as mentioned, Tremorsense doesn't remove the disadvantage on your attacks in the proposed scenario, and I'd add it also affects any spell or feature that says "that you can see".
But there is another thing, and I'm not sure if I'm alone on this or if it's aligned with what kenclary said. Since this Special Sense states "can pinpoint the location of creatures and moving objects", I'm ruling that if you're Hidden but not moving, Tremorsense is not useful.
PS. I remember, with the 2014 rules, some people were ruling that Tremorsense was a form of sight and allowed you to beat Invisibility. The 2024 rules clarified how it works by adding "it doesn’t count as a form of sight".
But there is another thing, and I'm not sure if I'm alone on this or if it's aligned with what kenclary said. Since this Special Sense states "can pinpoint the location of creatures and moving objects", I'm ruling that if you're Hidden but not moving, Tremorsense is not useful.
That "and" isn't saying they need be both a creature and a moving object. It's just a list of things that can be pinpointed; non-moving objects couldn't be found --- because they aren't producing any vibration to be sensed.
Also, it may not be "sight" but it would qualify as "finding" a hidden person. I could see an ad hoc argument for "also need a Perception check to beat their Stealth" if they are trying to be too-still-to-be-sensed but I'm pretty sure they've not specified that because it would depend on which story tropes you are basing your Tremorsense on... Can your stealth check stop your heartbeat, etc.? :)
While not official ruling per se, those interested can find this past answer from the Devs on X:
@DerynDraconis Can a creature with Tremorsense locate player while he is moving, with a successful Dexterity (Stealth) check, within its radius? Or a success is impossible because vibrations (including heartbeats or breathing) prevents a player to move stealthly vs Tremorsense?
@JeremyECrawford Tremorsense doesn't automatically nullify someone else's Stealth. It lets you notice someone in contact with the ground on the other side of a wall, for instance. But a person can still move stealthily enough to escape the notice of a creature with tremorsense.
But there is another thing, and I'm not sure if I'm alone on this or if it's aligned with what kenclary said. Since this Special Sense states "can pinpoint the location of creatures and moving objects", I'm ruling that if you're Hidden but not moving, Tremorsense is not useful.
That "and" isn't saying they need be both a creature and a moving object. It's just a list of things that can be pinpointed; non-moving objects couldn't be found --- because they aren't producing any vibration to be sensed.
That totally makes sense.
I just figured that if non-moving objects can't be detected, then non-moving creatures wouldn't be either, but I admit that's just my personal ruling.
[...] Can your stealth check stop your heartbeat, etc.? :)
It depends. Am I maybe a Construct? (just kidding!)
I agree with kenclary, but I have a small detail I'd like to share: as mentioned, Tremorsense doesn't remove the disadvantage on your attacks in the proposed scenario, and I'd add it also affects any spell or feature that says "that you can see".
But there is another thing, and I'm not sure if I'm alone on this or if it's aligned with what kenclary said. Since this Special Sense states "can pinpoint the location of creatures and moving objects", I'm ruling that if you're Hidden but not moving, Tremorsense is not useful.
PS. I remember, with the 2014 rules, some people were ruling that Tremorsense was a form of sight and allowed you to beat Invisibility. The 2024 rules clarified how it works by adding "it doesn’t count as a form of sight".
EDIT: for clarity.
I actually would rule that Tremorsense removes the disadvantage on attacks in that scenario. "Pinpoint the location" is basically meaningless otherwise
"Doesn't count as a form of sight" would mean you couldn't see whether the drow was in the process of casting another spell with somatic components, for instance. If they are running and within range though, you know exactly where they are
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
You make a good point. Honestly, I could agree with that ruling at any table.
Just leaving here my main argument for why I said that. The Invisible condition states:
Attacks Affected. Attack rolls against you have Disadvantage, and your attack rolls have Advantage. If a creature can somehow see you, you don’t gain this benefit against that creature.
And as the rules say, Tremorsense doesn't count as a form of sight, unlike Blindsight ("you can see within a specific range without relying on physical sight") or Truesight ("your vision is enhanced within a specific range").
Additionally, both Blindsight and Truesight explicitly mention that you can see a creature that has the Invisible condition. Something Tremorsense doesn't.
You make a good point. Honestly, I could agree with that ruling at any table.
Just leaving here my main argument for why I said that. The Invisible condition states:
Attacks Affected. Attack rolls against you have Disadvantage, and your attack rolls have Advantage. If a creature can somehow see you, you don’t gain this benefit against that creature.
And as the rules say, Tremorsense doesn't count as a form of sight, unlike Blindsight ("you can see within a specific range without relying on physical sight") or Truesight ("your vision is enhanced within a specific range").
Additionally, both Blindsight and Truesight explicitly mention that you can see a creature that has the Invisible condition. Something Tremorsense doesn't.
It's definitely a gray area. I just think that if Tremorsense doesn't circumvent the disadvantage from Invisibility though, and per the old Sage Advice doesn't even help against Stealth... what's the point of it? The cases where it would have some utility above and beyond simply using your ears are pretty small
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
It's definitely a gray area. I just think that if Tremorsense doesn't circumvent the disadvantage from Invisibility though, and per the old Sage Advice doesn't even help against Stealth... what's the point of it? The cases where it would have some utility above and beyond simply using your ears are pretty small
Basically, that's why I think Tremorsense should let you target invisible people, with disadvantage. You know where they are (what square they are in) but still can't see them. As per the "Unseen Attackers and Targets" box in chapter 1.
I also would let it straight "find" a hidden person, negating the whole condition. But, maybe, I would let a hidden person who is staying motionless make, say, a DC 25 Stealth check thwart Tremorsense, to slow their heartbeat --- or just a DC 20 check to just hold their breath while remaining perfectly still, if I decide that heartbeats don't really matter for Tremorsense --- after all, sandworms detect your walking, not your heartbeat :) Or something like that; a good mechanic isn't obvious here, or at least would be very dependent on just how the DM wants Tremorsense to work.
It's definitely a gray area. I just think that if Tremorsense doesn't circumvent the disadvantage from Invisibility though, and per the old Sage Advice doesn't even help against Stealth... what's the point of it? The cases where it would have some utility above and beyond simply using your ears are pretty small
Basically, that's why I think Tremorsense should let you target invisible people, with disadvantage. You know where they are (what square they are in) but still can't see them. As per the "Unseen Attackers and Targets" box in chapter 1.
I also would let it straight "find" a hidden person, negating the whole condition. But, maybe, I would let a hidden person who is staying motionless make, say, a DC 25 Stealth check thwart Tremorsense, to slow their heartbeat --- or just a DC 20 check to just hold their breath while remaining perfectly still, if I decide that heartbeats don't really matter for Tremorsense --- after all, sandworms detect your walking, not your heartbeat :) Or something like that; a good mechanic isn't obvious here, or at least would be very dependent on just how the DM wants Tremorsense to work.
This is a fine example of a legit ruling. You should just assume that your DM will need to decide how it works if you even use the feature.
If they are in range, Tremorsense will tell them where the mage is (even if they are hidden, which they are not). They can attack, but still at disadvantage.
Additionally, unless the mage is making Stealth rolls to move silently, they would know where he is, anyway, and could attack (still at disadvantage) regardless of Tremorsense. Especially since they saw him vanish and know he's running away.
But there is another thing, and I'm not sure if I'm alone on this or if it's aligned with what kenclary said. Since this Special Sense states "can pinpoint the location of creatures and moving objects", I'm ruling that if you're Hidden but not moving, Tremorsense is not useful.
RAW, it definitely does NOT work this way. It just works exactly how it was explained back in Post #2, as quoted above.
The phrase "the location of creatures and moving objects" very clearly refers to all creatures (creatures that are moving AND creatures that are not moving) as well as objects that are moving (only moving objects, not stationary objects).
Being able to locate all creatures that are Hidden (in contact with the same qualifying surface, etc.) is actually the primary useful function of Tremorsense.
Also, it may not be "sight" but it would qualify as "finding" a hidden person. I could see an ad hoc argument for "also need a Perception check to beat their Stealth" if they are trying to be too-still-to-be-sensed but I'm pretty sure they've not specified that because it would depend on which story tropes you are basing your Tremorsense on... Can your stealth check stop your heartbeat, etc.? :)
Nah, a Perception check would not be necessary in this case.
The text for the Hide action states that "You stop being hidden immediately after . . . an enemy finds you". The Hide action also provides a method of finding a hidden creature -- by meeting or exceeding a certain DC value on a Wisdom (Perception) check. But as written, that's not necessarily the only method of finding a creature. That's just how you find a creature "with a Wisdom (Perception) check". You might also find a creature "with" some other method.
We need to keep in mind that a Perception check is only ever used to "notice something that's easy to miss". If we are making this check via performing a Search action, then we are attempting to discern the location of a concealed creature "that isn't obvious".
Because the rules for Tremorsense state that we can "pinpoint the location of creatures" that are in contact with the same surface (a stone surface for the Dwarf Trait), the location of such creatures becomes obvious to us and therefore a Perception check is unnecessary to decern the location of such creatures, and so we have successfully found the creature with an alternate method.
While not official ruling per se, those interested can find this past answer from the Devs on X:
@DerynDraconis Can a creature with Tremorsense locate player while he is moving, with a successful Dexterity (Stealth) check, within its radius? Or a success is impossible because vibrations (including heartbeats or breathing) prevents a player to move stealthly vs Tremorsense?
@JeremyECrawford Tremorsense doesn't automatically nullify someone else's Stealth. It lets you notice someone in contact with the ground on the other side of a wall, for instance. But a person can still move stealthily enough to escape the notice of a creature with tremorsense.
This old answer is obsolete for the 2024 ruleset since the description of Tremorsense has changed.
Previously, only monsters had this special sense, and it was described like this:
"A monster with tremorsense can detect and pinpoint the origin of vibrations within a specific radius, provided that the monster and the source of the vibrations are in contact with the same ground or substance."
In 2024, we have this:
"A creature with Tremorsense can pinpoint the location of creatures and moving objects"
This is a mechanically significant change. It is no longer a judgement call with respect to whether or not a particular creature's location can be pinpointed by this special sense.
I actually would rule that Tremorsense removes the disadvantage on attacks in that scenario. "Pinpoint the location" is basically meaningless otherwise
As pointed out later on in the thread, in this context being able to "pinpoint the location" just means that you do not have to "guess the square" -- instead, you can target the creature directly (at disadvantage) assuming that the creature is not behind total cover and so on. The main benefit is to be able to know the location of a Hidden creature that you would otherwise have to "guess the square" to attack it.
But there is another thing, and I'm not sure if I'm alone on this or if it's aligned with what kenclary said. Since this Special Sense states "can pinpoint the location of creatures and moving objects", I'm ruling that if you're Hidden but not moving, Tremorsense is not useful.
RAW, it definitely does NOT work this way. It just works exactly how it was explained back in Post #2, as quoted above.
The phrase "the location of creatures and moving objects" very clearly refers to all creatures (creatures that are moving AND creatures that are not moving) as well as objects that are moving (only moving objects, not stationary objects).
Being able to locate all creatures that are Hidden (in contact with the same qualifying surface, etc.) is actually the primary useful function of Tremorsense.
Like I said from the start of this thread:
- "I'm not sure if I'm alone on this" - "I just figured that if non-moving objects can't be detected, then non-moving creatures wouldn't be either, but I admit that's just my personal ruling."
That's a reasonable personal ruling for the 2014 ruleset.
The rules for Tremorsense have changed since then as I pointed out in my previous post so if you are now running games under the new 2024 ruleset you might want to revisit this or at least make sure that the players are aware of any house rules that deviate from the RAW.
But there is another thing, and I'm not sure if I'm alone on this or if it's aligned with what kenclary said. Since this Special Sense states "can pinpoint the location of creatures and moving objects", I'm ruling that if you're Hidden but not moving, Tremorsense is not useful.
RAW, it definitely does NOT work this way. It just works exactly how it was explained back in Post #2, as quoted above.
The phrase "the location of creatures and moving objects" very clearly refers to all creatures (creatures that are moving AND creatures that are not moving) as well as objects that are moving (only moving objects, not stationary objects).
Being able to locate all creatures that are Hidden (in contact with the same qualifying surface, etc.) is actually the primary useful function of Tremorsense.
Like I said from the start of this thread:
- "I'm not sure if I'm alone on this" - "I just figured that if non-moving objects can't be detected, then non-moving creatures wouldn't be either, but I admit that's just my personal ruling."
The issue isn't even the 'creatures and moving objects' part. It's that "pinpoint" has no defined meaning within the rules
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I think a ruling in which Tremorsense finds an enemy who Hide is sound.
But i don't think it can offset the benefit of Attacks Affected from Invisible creature as it doesn’t count as a form of sight, which the benefit isn't gained if a creature can somehow see you.
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I have a player (2 actually) in my recent game who are dwarves, as such they can gain Tremorsense via their Stonecunning feature.
As per the wording of this feature in the glossary, Tremorsense does not count as sight.
We got into this small discussion mid-combat:
A Drow mage cast greater invisibility to run away in a combat. The party were unable to attack and he was escaping.
The dwarf then used Stonecunning and asked "Can I Fire an arrow in his location?"
I made the argument that since the rules state that Termorsesne is not a form of sight and the drow was about 30 foot away that the player could not make an attack as the only reason they know where the drow was, is due to the termorsense and that would be treating tremorsense as sight.
I did however say that they could point out the general direction to other party members (general not specific) and they could take a crack at it. There was a bit of an argument about it as the player stated they were treating it like hitting someone whilst blinded.
I'm questioning here if I have interpreted this rule right and made the correct call or if I have misinterpreted the rule.
D&D DM Info - Here
Discord: ItsScottish#0001
Platform: FoundryVTT
Steak: Rare
If they are in range, Tremorsense will tell them where the mage is (even if they are hidden, which they are not). They can attack, but still at disadvantage.
Additionally, unless the mage is making Stealth rolls to move silently, they would know where he is, anyway, and could attack (still at disadvantage) regardless of Tremorsense. Especially since they saw him vanish and know he's running away.
I agree with kenclary, but I have a small detail I'd like to share: as mentioned, Tremorsense doesn't remove the disadvantage on your attacks in the proposed scenario, and I'd add it also affects any spell or feature that says "that you can see".
But there is another thing, and I'm not sure if I'm alone on this or if it's aligned with what kenclary said. Since this Special Sense states "can pinpoint the location of creatures and moving objects", I'm ruling that if you're Hidden but not moving, Tremorsense is not useful.
PS. I remember, with the 2014 rules, some people were ruling that Tremorsense was a form of sight and allowed you to beat Invisibility. The 2024 rules clarified how it works by adding "it doesn’t count as a form of sight".
EDIT: for clarity.
That "and" isn't saying they need be both a creature and a moving object. It's just a list of things that can be pinpointed; non-moving objects couldn't be found --- because they aren't producing any vibration to be sensed.
Also, it may not be "sight" but it would qualify as "finding" a hidden person. I could see an ad hoc argument for "also need a Perception check to beat their Stealth" if they are trying to be too-still-to-be-sensed but I'm pretty sure they've not specified that because it would depend on which story tropes you are basing your Tremorsense on... Can your stealth check stop your heartbeat, etc.? :)
The rules don't offer much on Tremorsense versus Hide
While not official ruling per se, those interested can find this past answer from the Devs on X:
If an Imp is using his invisibility and is grounded, I think the tremorsense will be able to notice the creature, but what if the Imp is flying?
Tremorsense explicitly says it doesn't detect creatures or objects in the air.
pronouns: he/she/they
That totally makes sense.
I just figured that if non-moving objects can't be detected, then non-moving creatures wouldn't be either, but I admit that's just my personal ruling.
It depends. Am I maybe a Construct? (just kidding!)
I actually would rule that Tremorsense removes the disadvantage on attacks in that scenario. "Pinpoint the location" is basically meaningless otherwise
"Doesn't count as a form of sight" would mean you couldn't see whether the drow was in the process of casting another spell with somatic components, for instance. If they are running and within range though, you know exactly where they are
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
You make a good point. Honestly, I could agree with that ruling at any table.
Just leaving here my main argument for why I said that. The Invisible condition states:
And as the rules say, Tremorsense doesn't count as a form of sight, unlike Blindsight ("you can see within a specific range without relying on physical sight") or Truesight ("your vision is enhanced within a specific range").
Additionally, both Blindsight and Truesight explicitly mention that you can see a creature that has the Invisible condition. Something Tremorsense doesn't.
It's definitely a gray area. I just think that if Tremorsense doesn't circumvent the disadvantage from Invisibility though, and per the old Sage Advice doesn't even help against Stealth... what's the point of it? The cases where it would have some utility above and beyond simply using your ears are pretty small
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Basically, that's why I think Tremorsense should let you target invisible people, with disadvantage. You know where they are (what square they are in) but still can't see them. As per the "Unseen Attackers and Targets" box in chapter 1.
I also would let it straight "find" a hidden person, negating the whole condition. But, maybe, I would let a hidden person who is staying motionless make, say, a DC 25 Stealth check thwart Tremorsense, to slow their heartbeat --- or just a DC 20 check to just hold their breath while remaining perfectly still, if I decide that heartbeats don't really matter for Tremorsense --- after all, sandworms detect your walking, not your heartbeat :) Or something like that; a good mechanic isn't obvious here, or at least would be very dependent on just how the DM wants Tremorsense to work.
This is a fine example of a legit ruling. You should just assume that your DM will need to decide how it works if you even use the feature.
RAW, this is exactly how it works.
RAW, it definitely does NOT work this way. It just works exactly how it was explained back in Post #2, as quoted above.
The phrase "the location of creatures and moving objects" very clearly refers to all creatures (creatures that are moving AND creatures that are not moving) as well as objects that are moving (only moving objects, not stationary objects).
Being able to locate all creatures that are Hidden (in contact with the same qualifying surface, etc.) is actually the primary useful function of Tremorsense.
Nah, a Perception check would not be necessary in this case.
The text for the Hide action states that "You stop being hidden immediately after . . . an enemy finds you". The Hide action also provides a method of finding a hidden creature -- by meeting or exceeding a certain DC value on a Wisdom (Perception) check. But as written, that's not necessarily the only method of finding a creature. That's just how you find a creature "with a Wisdom (Perception) check". You might also find a creature "with" some other method.
We need to keep in mind that a Perception check is only ever used to "notice something that's easy to miss". If we are making this check via performing a Search action, then we are attempting to discern the location of a concealed creature "that isn't obvious".
Because the rules for Tremorsense state that we can "pinpoint the location of creatures" that are in contact with the same surface (a stone surface for the Dwarf Trait), the location of such creatures becomes obvious to us and therefore a Perception check is unnecessary to decern the location of such creatures, and so we have successfully found the creature with an alternate method.
This old answer is obsolete for the 2024 ruleset since the description of Tremorsense has changed.
Previously, only monsters had this special sense, and it was described like this:
"A monster with tremorsense can detect and pinpoint the origin of vibrations within a specific radius, provided that the monster and the source of the vibrations are in contact with the same ground or substance."
In 2024, we have this:
"A creature with Tremorsense can pinpoint the location of creatures and moving objects"
This is a mechanically significant change. It is no longer a judgement call with respect to whether or not a particular creature's location can be pinpointed by this special sense.
As pointed out later on in the thread, in this context being able to "pinpoint the location" just means that you do not have to "guess the square" -- instead, you can target the creature directly (at disadvantage) assuming that the creature is not behind total cover and so on. The main benefit is to be able to know the location of a Hidden creature that you would otherwise have to "guess the square" to attack it.
Like I said from the start of this thread:
- "I'm not sure if I'm alone on this"
- "I just figured that if non-moving objects can't be detected, then non-moving creatures wouldn't be either, but I admit that's just my personal ruling."
That's a reasonable personal ruling for the 2014 ruleset.
The rules for Tremorsense have changed since then as I pointed out in my previous post so if you are now running games under the new 2024 ruleset you might want to revisit this or at least make sure that the players are aware of any house rules that deviate from the RAW.
The issue isn't even the 'creatures and moving objects' part. It's that "pinpoint" has no defined meaning within the rules
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I think a ruling in which Tremorsense finds an enemy who Hide is sound.
But i don't think it can offset the benefit of Attacks Affected from Invisible creature as it doesn’t count as a form of sight, which the benefit isn't gained if a creature can somehow see you.