It may be worth mentioning that the 2024 version of the "Alert" feat allows you to swap positions in the initiative order with a willing ally right after the initiative roll. It's a lot more limited than the old Delay action, but it can be handy in situations where you've rolled high on initiative but don't know what you want to do yet.
It may be worth mentioning that the 2024 version of the "Alert" feat allows you to swap positions in the initiative order with a willing ally right after the initiative roll. It's a lot more limited than the old Delay action, but it can be handy in situations where you've rolled high on initiative but don't know what you want to do yet.
The best house rule I've been able to come up with for making surprise function coherently without the overwhelming impact of a surprise round is
Surprise: in a potential surprise situation, the characters attempting surprise roll stealth instead of initiative, and the potentially surprised targets have their initiative limited to their passive perception. Note that, if one character decides to launch an attack without informing the rest of the party, they count as potentially surprised. This provides a simple explanation for the ambushers losing initiative in a surprise situation: you were clumsy enough that your victims spotted you.
5E24 surprise and Initiative rules between the Player's Handbook and Dungeon Master Guide offers me enought guidelines to come up with various options;
Surprise. If a combatant is surprised by combat starting, that combatant has Disadvantage on their Initiative roll. For example, if an ambusher starts combat while hidden from a foe who is unaware that combat is starting, that foe is surprised.
Surprise. If you’re Invisible when you roll Initiative, you have Advantage on the roll.
Rolling Initiative. In any situation where a character’s actions initiate combat, you can give the acting character Advantage on their Initiative roll.
Advantage and Disadvantage. If a creature has Advantage on Initiative rolls, increase its Initiative score by 5. If it has Disadvantage on those rolls, decrease that score by 5.
Initiative Scores for Characters. You can get to the action of combat more quickly by using Initiative scores instead of rolling. You might decide to use Initiative scores just for characters, just for monsters, or for both. A character’s Initiative score is typically 10 plus all modifiers to the character’s Initiative roll (including their Dexterity modifier and any special modifiers).
Ties. If a tie occurs, the DM decides the order among tied monsters, and the players decide the order among tied characters. The DM decides the order if the tie is between a monster and a player character.
5E24 surprise and Initiative rules between the Player's Handbook and Dungeon Master Guide offers me enought guidelines to come up with various options;
Surprise. If a combatant is surprised by combat starting, that combatant has Disadvantage on their Initiative roll. For example, if an ambusher starts combat while hidden from a foe who is unaware that combat is starting, that foe is surprised.
Surprise. If you’re Invisible when you roll Initiative, you have Advantage on the roll.
Rolling Initiative. In any situation where a character’s actions initiate combat, you can give the acting character Advantage on their Initiative roll.
Advantage and Disadvantage. If a creature has Advantage on Initiative rolls, increase its Initiative score by 5. If it has Disadvantage on those rolls, decrease that score by 5.
Initiative Scores for Characters. You can get to the action of combat more quickly by using Initiative scores instead of rolling. You might decide to use Initiative scores just for characters, just for monsters, or for both. A character’s Initiative score is typically 10 plus all modifiers to the character’s Initiative roll (including their Dexterity modifier and any special modifiers).
Ties. If a tie occurs, the DM decides the order among tied monsters, and the players decide the order among tied characters. The DM decides the order if the tie is between a monster and a player character.
Absolutely none of what you posted in any way addresses the issues raised in the OP or in the discussion we have been having. Did you not read anything but the title before posting? We know what the rules say. I was asking what the expected implementation of those rules looks like and we were discussing wither that expected implementation is good/reasonable.
The best house rule I've been able to come up with for making surprise function coherently without the overwhelming impact of a surprise round is
Surprise: in a potential surprise situation, the characters attempting surprise roll stealth instead of initiative, and the potentially surprised targets have their initiative limited to their passive perception. Note that, if one character decides to launch an attack without informing the rest of the party, they count as potentially surprised. This provides a simple explanation for the ambushers losing initiative in a surprise situation: you were clumsy enough that your victims spotted you.
I get where you are trying to go with that but it seems unnecessarily complex.
I think it makes more sense to roll the stealth check and use passive perception first. Just as you would for anything else they may or may not notice. Then if they do not spot the ambush allow the ambusher and any allies who are aware that combat is about to start to go automatically at the top of initiative. Then everyone else rolls initiative normally.
That way you guarantee the person who breaks their successful hiding and starts the attack always goes first, and the party doesn't always go in the same order. Plus it is the most similar to ordinary rolling of initiative and ordinary use of passive perception so it is easier to remember and handle.
It also works perfectly well if one character hauls off and starts combat without others being aware they are intending to do so. That character goes first and everyone else rolls because they are all surprised.
Nobody ever gets to super humanly know combat is happening, nor do they ever roll super well but end up effectively going last.
It may be worth mentioning that the 2024 version of the "Alert" feat allows you to swap positions in the initiative order with a willing ally right after the initiative roll. It's a lot more limited than the old Delay action, but it can be handy in situations where you've rolled high on initiative but don't know what you want to do yet.
And to really get the most from the feat, combine it with Find Familiar. Since your familiar rolls its own initiative, you always have two results to choose from without putting a party member in an awkward position.
5E24 surprise and Initiative rules between the Player's Handbook and Dungeon Master Guide offers me enought guidelines to come up with various options;
Surprise. If a combatant is surprised by combat starting, that combatant has Disadvantage on their Initiative roll. For example, if an ambusher starts combat while hidden from a foe who is unaware that combat is starting, that foe is surprised.
Surprise. If you’re Invisible when you roll Initiative, you have Advantage on the roll.
Rolling Initiative. In any situation where a character’s actions initiate combat, you can give the acting character Advantage on their Initiative roll.
Advantage and Disadvantage. If a creature has Advantage on Initiative rolls, increase its Initiative score by 5. If it has Disadvantage on those rolls, decrease that score by 5.
Initiative Scores for Characters. You can get to the action of combat more quickly by using Initiative scores instead of rolling. You might decide to use Initiative scores just for characters, just for monsters, or for both. A character’s Initiative score is typically 10 plus all modifiers to the character’s Initiative roll (including their Dexterity modifier and any special modifiers).
Ties. If a tie occurs, the DM decides the order among tied monsters, and the players decide the order among tied characters. The DM decides the order if the tie is between a monster and a player character.
Absolutely none of what you posted in any way addresses the issues raised in the OP or in the discussion we have been having. Did you not read anything but the title before posting? We know what the rules say. I was asking what the expected implementation of those rules looks like and we were discussing wither that expected implementation is good/reasonable.
Are you asking this seriously or just to come off as rude? I addressed it in post #18 like 3 days ago which you replied if you remember. This post is in response to the one above with rules put in context and which answer OP questions such as How do you handle surprise in your games?
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It may be worth mentioning that the 2024 version of the "Alert" feat allows you to swap positions in the initiative order with a willing ally right after the initiative roll. It's a lot more limited than the old Delay action, but it can be handy in situations where you've rolled high on initiative but don't know what you want to do yet.
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Thanks. That is a good point to be aware of.
The best house rule I've been able to come up with for making surprise function coherently without the overwhelming impact of a surprise round is
5E24 surprise and Initiative rules between the Player's Handbook and Dungeon Master Guide offers me enought guidelines to come up with various options;
Absolutely none of what you posted in any way addresses the issues raised in the OP or in the discussion we have been having. Did you not read anything but the title before posting? We know what the rules say. I was asking what the expected implementation of those rules looks like and we were discussing wither that expected implementation is good/reasonable.
I get where you are trying to go with that but it seems unnecessarily complex.
I think it makes more sense to roll the stealth check and use passive perception first. Just as you would for anything else they may or may not notice.
Then if they do not spot the ambush allow the ambusher and any allies who are aware that combat is about to start to go automatically at the top of initiative. Then everyone else rolls initiative normally.
That way you guarantee the person who breaks their successful hiding and starts the attack always goes first, and the party doesn't always go in the same order. Plus it is the most similar to ordinary rolling of initiative and ordinary use of passive perception so it is easier to remember and handle.
It also works perfectly well if one character hauls off and starts combat without others being aware they are intending to do so. That character goes first and everyone else rolls because they are all surprised.
Nobody ever gets to super humanly know combat is happening, nor do they ever roll super well but end up effectively going last.
And to really get the most from the feat, combine it with Find Familiar. Since your familiar rolls its own initiative, you always have two results to choose from without putting a party member in an awkward position.
Are you asking this seriously or just to come off as rude? I addressed it in post #18 like 3 days ago which you replied if you remember. This post is in response to the one above with rules put in context and which answer OP questions such as How do you handle surprise in your games?