Minor Illusion specifically mentions it can't create light. However, if you want to change the game state in some mechanical way, a spell would need to actually list that game mechanic.
Minor Illusion specifically mentions it can't create light. However, if you want to change the game state in some mechanical way, a spell would need to actually list that game mechanic.
If there isn't a general rule about it — and I'm honestly not sure one way or the other, that's why I asked — then the fact that Minor Illusion has an explicit restriction on it but other illusion spells don't means that the other illusion spells don't have that restriction. It doesn't seem particularly unreasonable to allow a leveled spell to do something that you can do with a cantrip like Light.
im of the opinion when it reaches phenomenon level it probably can covers light, but i also vaguely remember a sage advice that implied otherwise though it may have been specific to a spell like minor illusion and not illusions in general.
i am not sure on that though as it is an illusion of light, not actual light. Like I think maybe lets say the room is 20 by 20 and major image covers the room. maybe it can illuminate the room but will the light pass outside of the room like light, i don't think so. And maybe it can't actually light up the room but you could create a duplicate room image with a fake monster but apparently lit up. but no light will pass out of the room, even though you can see the light from a distance. It is hard to say.
I don't see how you can contain actual rays of light in a 15-foot Cube. The illumination would just stop unnaturally at the edges. For comparison, a Torch casts Bright Light in a 20-foot radius and Dim Light for an additional 20 feet. So the image would look pretty suspicious, at least.
It has to be able to emit light out past the area of effect, or you can't see it unless you're in the area of effect, because the only way you can see an illusion is if it produces/alters light. And since illusions very obviously don't work that way, because the most obvious illusions would then automatically fail, as you'd have to physically interact with, say, an illusory wall to even see it.
(Basically, the light is altered in the (visual) illusion, but that altered light then passes out of the AoE of the illusion, which is why you can see it).
Similarly, you don't have to be in the 5' cube of a minor illusion that makes an illusory sound to hear the sound. No one would dispute the sound is audible outside the area of effect. But clearly it's produced by the illusion and then travels out of that space. Light works the same way for visual effects. To decide otherwise is to decide illusions don't work at all.
I think since discerning the illusion allows you to see through it means that these are more mental effects than actual physical illusions. if it were a hologram recognizing that it is an illusion would not change that it looks solid, how hot it feels etc. so no i don't think the light has to extend past the illusion size. I get your point on sound, but i do not think it is the same thing as light has a bigger game effect in lighting up dark areas. like where does this end if you create a dragon and it breathes fire, does the fire extend past the area, can the troll reach out of the area. clearly you have to make a break for some things to extend past the area while others don't. In this case, i think the light does not pass beyond the area.
I don't see how you can contain actual rays of light in a 15-foot Cube. The illumination would just stop unnaturally at the edges. For comparison, a Torch casts Bright Light in a 20-foot radius and Dim Light for an additional 20 feet. So the image would look pretty suspicious, at least.
It has to be able to emit light out past the area of effect, or you can't see it unless you're in the area of effect, because the only way you can see an illusion is if it produces/alters light. And since illusions very obviously don't work that way, because the most obvious illusions would then automatically fail, as you'd have to physically interact with, say, an illusory wall to even see it.
(Basically, the light is altered in the (visual) illusion, but that altered light then passes out of the AoE of the illusion, which is why you can see it).
Similarly, you don't have to be in the 5' cube of a minor illusion that makes an illusory sound to hear the sound. No one would dispute the sound is audible outside the area of effect. But clearly it's produced by the illusion and then travels out of that space. Light works the same way for visual effects. To decide otherwise is to decide illusions don't work at all.
I think since discerning the illusion allows you to see through it means that these are more mental effects than actual physical illusions. if it were a hologram recognizing that it is an illusion would not change that it looks solid, how hot it feels etc. so no i don't think the light has to extend past the illusion size. I get your point on sound, but i do not think it is the same thing as light has a bigger game effect in lighting up dark areas. like where does this end if you create a dragon and it breathes fire, does the fire extend past the area, can the troll reach out of the area. clearly you have to make a break for some things to extend past the area while others don't. In this case, i think the light does not pass beyond the area.
If light doesn't extend beyond the area, you can't see it, because sight works by photons (ie light) hitting the cones in your eyes. So if light doesn't get to you, you literally can't see it.
However, the illusion of an illusory dragon breath obviously doesn't extend beyond the illusion, because you'd have to alter photons outside the area of the illusion. (Once they're altered, they travel until they hit something like any other photon. ie, the illusion necessarily alters photons inside the illusory area, and those photons travel outside with the new wavelength data instead of the natural data. But to make dragonbreath extend beyond the area of the illusion, you'd have to alter the photons outside the area, and that it can't do).
Similarly, if it's a major illusion that produces heat, you can feel that heat outside the illusion area. (The illusion produces illusory heat inside the area, and that illusory heat radiates outward). And sounds produced in the illusion radiate outwards as sound waves.
The investigate or physical interact = see through is you can tell it's an illusion, and the 'modifies photons (and heat and sound and etc...)' is actually an illusory skin on top of those things, and you see through that illusory skin and discern the real photons (heat/sound/etc..) underneath.
This is literally the only way illusions can actually work as described.
Illusions don't normally emit light. They reflect light, just like the objects you're attempting to mimic. So if you cast a Silent Image in a darkened room, no one (who doesn't have some sort of special vision) can see it.
Above minor image (silent, major) they certainly can. Light is a visible phenomenon. This is pure RAW here, you can create any visible phenomenon. That could be a lightbulb/candle/etc.. that sheds light. That could be glow-in-the-dark stickers. That could be what looks like a firework. If it's something you see, Silent Image and above can create it.
Minor Illusion specifically mentions it can't create light. However, if you want to change the game state in some mechanical way, a spell would need to actually list that game mechanic.
Silent Image does. Any visible phenomenon means anything you can see. You can see light, ergo, it can produce an illusion of it.
im of the opinion when it reaches phenomenon level it probably can covers light, but i also vaguely remember a sage advice that implied otherwise though it may have been specific to a spell like minor illusion and not illusions in general.
i am not sure on that though as it is an illusion of light, not actual light. Like I think maybe lets say the room is 20 by 20 and major image covers the room. maybe it can illuminate the room but will the light pass outside of the room like light, i don't think so. And maybe it can't actually light up the room but you could create a duplicate room image with a fake monster but apparently lit up. but no light will pass out of the room, even though you can see the light from a distance. It is hard to say.
It has to shine out of the area of the illusion, because otherwise you can't see it until you're in it, since light is how sight works. Think of visual illusions as magic that changes photons, which then travel wherever.
I don't see how you can contain actual rays of light in a 15-foot Cube. The illumination would just stop unnaturally at the edges. For comparison, a Torch casts Bright Light in a 20-foot radius and Dim Light for an additional 20 feet. So the image would look pretty suspicious, at least.
It has to be able to emit light out past the area of effect, or you can't see it unless you're in the area of effect, because the only way you can see an illusion is if it produces/alters light. And since illusions very obviously don't work that way, because the most obvious illusions would then automatically fail, as you'd have to physically interact with, say, an illusory wall to even see it.
(Basically, the light is altered in the (visual) illusion, but that altered light then passes out of the AoE of the illusion, which is why you can see it).
Similarly, you don't have to be in the 5' cube of a minor illusion that makes an illusory sound to hear the sound. No one would dispute the sound is audible outside the area of effect. But clearly it's produced by the illusion and then travels out of that space. Light works the same way for visual effects. To decide otherwise is to decide illusions don't work at all.
I think since discerning the illusion allows you to see through it means that these are more mental effects than actual physical illusions. if it were a hologram recognizing that it is an illusion would not change that it looks solid, how hot it feels etc. so no i don't think the light has to extend past the illusion size. I get your point on sound, but i do not think it is the same thing as light has a bigger game effect in lighting up dark areas. like where does this end if you create a dragon and it breathes fire, does the fire extend past the area, can the troll reach out of the area. clearly you have to make a break for some things to extend past the area while others don't. In this case, i think the light does not pass beyond the area.
If it was mental, that would imply three things:
1. creatures should get a saving throw when they're cast, because it affects them. They don't. So clearly it's not changing their brain.
2. It would take creatures as targets, which it doesn't.
3. Major Image with a 4th level slot lasts forever until dispelled. If it was altering brains, that means a 4th level spell is affecting the brains of every single living creature on every plane (who could at some point see the major image) when cast. And not just those currently alive, but creatures yet to be born (since the illusion lasts forever).
#1-2 decisively rules out it being a change in the minds of observers. And #3 just makes it ridiculous if it's an affect internal to the mind of every observer. I don't think a Wish could accomplish that. (Change the mind of every creature that will ever live with no saving throw).
Rules Aren’t Physics. The rules of the game are meant to provide a fun game experience, not to describe the laws of physics in the worlds of D&D, let alone the real world.
Arguing on the basis of how light propagates irl is not the strongest case.
[...] Similarly, you don't have to be in the 5' cube of a minor illusion that makes an illusory sound to hear the sound. No one would dispute the sound is audible outside the area of effect. But clearly it's produced by the illusion and then travels out of that space. Light works the same way for visual effects. To decide otherwise is to decide illusions don't work at all.
For Minor Illusion, the image of an object it must be no larger than a 5-foot Cube. But if you create a sound, the Area of Effect is not defined.
[...] Similarly, you don't have to be in the 5' cube of a minor illusion that makes an illusory sound to hear the sound. No one would dispute the sound is audible outside the area of effect. But clearly it's produced by the illusion and then travels out of that space. Light works the same way for visual effects. To decide otherwise is to decide illusions don't work at all.
For Minor Illusion, the image of an object it must be no larger than a 5-foot Cube. But if you create a sound, the Area of Effect is not defined.
It does have to be somewhere within 30' of you. Are you saying you can make the sound happen at 30' from you, and no one past 30' from you can hear it?
And that just kicks the can down the road to major image, which does have a defined area of effect, and can produce sounds. Are you saying the sounds made by a major image cannot be heard outside its area of effect? (Are you saying Minor Image sounds can be heard in a wider area than Major Image sounds?)
Arguing things like light, sound, etc... produced by an illusion cannot leave the area of effect is a non-starter, because illusions simply don't work as intended or as written that way.
Not really, no. You can shout things in the heat of the moment, but you can't carryon a complex philosophical dialogue. Somewhere in the rules (apologies I don't have the time to find it), it mentions you can only say brief sentences during combat. So something like "Stop", "Surrender", "They're over there!", Absolutely! But: "I am Rehusthal, King Under the Mountain, the Burning Flame, and Master of the Infernal Forge, you shall bow to me, and my children, to plead for your lives, else I shall visit my wrath upon each of you, your kin, and your lands and they shall be uninhabitable from now until eternity! Now beg for your lives!" - not so much, certainly not without taking a full action to do so.
(As far as dodging goes, I'd require the attacking creature to make an attack against an AC10 creature taking the dodge action, possibly with a bonus to AC = caster stat bonus, but that's me ad libbing what the rules don't cover).
You can make up whatever rules you want as HB, but that is not RAW/RAI.
2/ Not quite. First, the spell must have a verbal component to break hiding. But second, not being hidden does not mean seen. Contrast with the darkness spell. If you are hidden inside an area of darkness, and cast a spell with a verbal component or make an attack out of the darkness, you stop being hidden, but they still can't see you.
Read what I wrote again, you are not disagreeing with anything I said here.
They don't know who cast the spell or made the attack.
Incorrect. Nothing about the Hide action or the Invisible condition affects whether or not the enemies know who did anything. In fact making an attack ends the Hidden condition thus they absolutely do know who made the attack. What the enemies do/don't know is completely up to the DM because it relies on lots of context. For instance an intelligent enemy who has fought the party before and knows the party is chasing them can figure out that Mr. Party Wizard is the one who counterspelled them regardless of whether Mr. Party Wizard is hidden or not.
And in fact, if you weren't hiding but within the darkness, they don't even know you're there, so doing one of those things just alerts them to someone's presence. The hiding is actually irrelevant.
Again incorrect, the 2024 rules state when the party encounters enemies both sides know it unless one side is being stealthy. Simply being inside a Darkness spell is not being stealthy, thus simply being in a darkness spell does not cause the enemies to not know you are there. Enemies can determine the location of player characters using sight, sound, and smell, as well as any special senses. Unless a character is Hiding (trying to be stealthy) they are making sufficient noise that the enemies can locate them, regardless of sightlines.
Note that if they cast Rime's from inside the rock instead, they don't break hiding (no verbal component), and so the enemies don't even know where it came from.
Again incorrect. Nothing in the rules states anything about the knowledge of the enemies, it is left entirely to the DM's discretion, because it depends on context. A mage in their tower will know a Rock that has suddenly appeared in their room, which fire came out of is an illusion and there is someone inside of it casting a spell. A zombie in a swamp not so much.
4/ Light is a visible phenomenon, so Silent Image (and Major) can create it or alter it. That's pretty straight up RAW, and also necessarily RAI, because otherwise illusions simply don't work.
An illusion spell cannot "emit" light. It can create the illusion of light within the boundaries of the illusion, but the illusion cannot affect the appearance of anything beyond the limits of the illusion. Again read what I wrote, and read the spell. An illusion of a fire looks bright and hot but it cannot illuminate the room around it, nor cause creatures to cast a shadow.
And an illusion requires physical interaction to break it. That is, touch.
Touch is not the only way to physically interact with something, the designers are completely capable of saying "a creature must touch the illusion to break it" if that is what they meant. But they didn't they said physically interact with it. If the enemies attempt to light an illusory bale of hay on fire it doesn't catch fire and the illusion is broken, if the enemies throw water on illusory cardboard box, it doesn't get wet & soggy and the illusion is broken, if the enemies throw a dart and an illusory door the dart goes straight through revealing it to be an illusion, if a ship with an illusory barrel on it suddenly tips to the side, the illusory barrel doesn't roll over the side of the ship nor does it create a splash when it hits the water revealing it to be an illusion, a rubber ball thrown at an illusory wall doesn't bounce off it revealing it to be an illusion, a dog bounding through an illusory hedge doesn't rustle any leaves revealing it to be an illusion. Do I need to go on?
Not really, no. You can shout things in the heat of the moment, but you can't carryon a complex philosophical dialogue. Somewhere in the rules (apologies I don't have the time to find it), it mentions you can only say brief sentences during combat. So something like "Stop", "Surrender", "They're over there!", Absolutely! But: "I am Rehusthal, King Under the Mountain, the Burning Flame, and Master of the Infernal Forge, you shall bow to me, and my children, to plead for your lives, else I shall visit my wrath upon each of you, your kin, and your lands and they shall be uninhabitable from now until eternity! Now beg for your lives!" - not so much, certainly not without taking a full action to do so.
(As far as dodging goes, I'd require the attacking creature to make an attack against an AC10 creature taking the dodge action, possibly with a bonus to AC = caster stat bonus, but that's me ad libbing what the rules don't cover).
You can make up whatever rules you want as HB, but that is not RAW/RAI.
2/ Not quite. First, the spell must have a verbal component to break hiding. But second, not being hidden does not mean seen. Contrast with the darkness spell. If you are hidden inside an area of darkness, and cast a spell with a verbal component or make an attack out of the darkness, you stop being hidden, but they still can't see you.
Read what I wrote again, you are not disagreeing with anything I said here.
They don't know who cast the spell or made the attack.
Incorrect. Nothing about the Hide action or the Invisible condition affects whether or not the enemies know who did anything. In fact making an attack ends the Hidden condition thus they absolutely do know who made the attack. What the enemies do/don't know is completely up to the DM because it relies on lots of context. For instance an intelligent enemy who has fought the party before and knows the party is chasing them can figure out that Mr. Party Wizard is the one who counterspelled them regardless of whether Mr. Party Wizard is hidden or not.
And in fact, if you weren't hiding but within the darkness, they don't even know you're there, so doing one of those things just alerts them to someone's presence. The hiding is actually irrelevant.
Again incorrect, the 2024 rules state when the party encounters enemies both sides know it unless one side is being stealthy. Simply being inside a Darkness spell is not being stealthy, thus simply being in a darkness spell does not cause the enemies to not know you are there. Enemies can determine the location of player characters using sight, sound, and smell, as well as any special senses. Unless a character is Hiding (trying to be stealthy) they are making sufficient noise that the enemies can locate them, regardless of sightlines.
Note that if they cast Rime's from inside the rock instead, they don't break hiding (no verbal component), and so the enemies don't even know where it came from.
Again incorrect. Nothing in the rules states anything about the knowledge of the enemies, it is left entirely to the DM's discretion, because it depends on context. A mage in their tower will know a Rock that has suddenly appeared in their room, which fire came out of is an illusion and there is someone inside of it casting a spell. A zombie in a swamp not so much.
4/ Light is a visible phenomenon, so Silent Image (and Major) can create it or alter it. That's pretty straight up RAW, and also necessarily RAI, because otherwise illusions simply don't work.
An illusion spell cannot "emit" light. It can create the illusion of light within the boundaries of the illusion, but the illusion cannot affect the appearance of anything beyond the limits of the illusion. Again read what I wrote, and read the spell. An illusion of a fire looks bright and hot but it cannot illuminate the room around it, nor cause creatures to cast a shadow.
And an illusion requires physical interaction to break it. That is, touch.
Touch is not the only way to physically interact with something, the designers are completely capable of saying "a creature must touch the illusion to break it" if that is what they meant. But they didn't they said physically interact with it. If the enemies attempt to light an illusory bale of hay on fire it doesn't catch fire and the illusion is broken, if the enemies throw water on illusory cardboard box, it doesn't get wet & soggy and the illusion is broken, if the enemies throw a dart and an illusory door the dart goes straight through revealing it to be an illusion, if a ship with an illusory barrel on it suddenly tips to the side, the illusory barrel doesn't roll over the side of the ship nor does it create a splash when it hits the water revealing it to be an illusion, a rubber ball thrown at an illusory wall doesn't bounce off it revealing it to be an illusion, a dog bounding through an illusory hedge doesn't rustle any leaves revealing it to be an illusion. Do I need to go on?
1/ disagree. I mean yes, a monologue might take a round (or more), but an interactive conversation doesn't necessarily involve long monologues.
(As far as your example: rule of cool trumps exact timing. I'd totally let a player say that. See also: The Princess Bride's Inigo Montoya's "you killed my father" bits. Those easily fit into a round structure).
2/
a/ Just because they're aware of you doesn't mean they know who you are. Nothing in the rules say that. Your example is deduction: "I know there's a party after me, I know a spell was cast at me - it's probably that party's wizard." They could well be wrong. They don't know it's the party's wizard, they're assuming it is. Consider a creature knowingly being chased by a 3rd party when the PC party ambushes it from unseen positions - they might wrongly assume it was the 3rd party ambushing it, because they incorrectly deduce any ambush would be by that 3rd party. A spell or arrow coming from an unseen position does not give anyone the name, class, level, or challenge rating of the thing that cast the (verbal component) spell or fired the arrow, just the fact of the attack/spell (and where it came from).
Similarly, Counterspell has no verbal component. If the hidden or unseen wizard uses counterspell, there's no way for the enemy to know who did it. Again, they can guess or make assumptions, but they can't know.
b/From noticing other creatures: "If neither side is being stealthy, creatures automatically notice each other once they are within sight or hearing range of one another."
Well, if you're unseen, they can't see you. What's hearing range? Even if I'm not hiding, if I'm otherwise just standing still unseen, you'd have to be pretty darn close to hear me breathing, even in complete silence. Certainly closer than most spell ranges. So until I start chanting, you haven't noticed me. (And depending on how far away you are and what other sound there is, you may not even hear me chanting. If I'm 120' away, you don't even hear me chanting, even in low background noise conditions.)
And that means your claim "Unless a character is Hiding (trying to be stealthy) they are making sufficient noise that the enemies can locate them, regardless of sightlines." is wrong, because the rules specifically say they have to be within hearing range. If they aren't within hearing range, they can't hear you, and thus can't notice you. For someone standing quietly, hearing range is like 2' away for a human, if it's absolutely silent. (if there's any background noise, it's inaudible unless your ear is right by their mouth). A cat can hear someone breathing at maybe 5'. ie, what they are doing determines how much noise they are making. It doesn't take a hide check to just stand somewhere. And how much noise they are making determines what the hearing range is. (Now, once the wizard starts casting a spell, he's probably audible out to ~50-60' under normal background noise conditions, but that's much noisier than just standing there).
And 'notice you' does not mean "know who or what you are", just that someone or something is there.
c/ Yes, if you make an attack roll, it ends hiding (and hiding is quite specific on it being an attack roll). But Rime's is not an attack roll. It's a cone spell with no verbal components. Ergo, casting it doesn't break hiding. So if you're hidden, no one knows who cast it or where it came from (because if they knew either of those things, it would mean breaking hidden).
Burning hands only breaks hidden because it has a verbal component. If you were a sorceror with subtle spell, you could cast it subtly, and not break hidden.
d/ " A mage in their tower will know a Rock that has suddenly appeared in their room, which fire came out of is an illusion and there is someone inside of it casting a spell."
Nonsense. Maybe there's a spell the mage doesn't know which summons a rock that spits fire periodically (there's weirder stuff in the game). I mean, he'd be right to be suspicious. It might warrant an investigation action/roll to determine if it's an illusion, but he doesn't know it's an illusion. That's a guess. And it certainly doesn't automatically break the illusion.
4/ a/ You're just wrong by RAW here. Emitting light is a visible phenomenon, so Silent/Major image can do it. And since (visual) illusions necessarily work by producing/modifying light which then travels outside the area of effect, it necessarily must be able to emit light beyond the area of effect. Otherwise you cannot see an illusion outside its area of effect, because light reaching your eyes is literally the only way to see things. (And it must emit that light, because there is literally nothing for light to reflect off of, because its an illusion).
So yes, an illusory fire absolutely illuminates a room just like a real fire, until you disbelieve in it.
And major image says that it seems real. That means appearing to really emit light (which is indistinguishable from actually emitting light until you disbelieve it). And specifically calls out a bunch of things like sounds, smells, and temperatures, all of which can be sensed outside the area of effect. (Specifically calling out the other things is because it needs to tell you what else Major Image can make you sense, whereas visual elements are explicit in the first sentence). You're creating a double standard here between visual phenomenon and sounds, smells, and temperatures.
b/ I would say all those things are grounds to be suspicious and take an action to investigate, because they're sus. You haven't actually physically interacted with it, something else did.
But you're right, not just touch, but it has to be something where you should have gotten tactile feedback on the interaction. Ie, if you swing your sword at it (and hit), and the sword passes through it, that counts, because you should have felt the resistance of the sword hitting it, and you didn't. But throwing water at it, for example, generates no tactile feedback. You have to physically interact with it. Otherwise, it's sus, but not immediately illusion breaking.
(Consider throwing water on a fire. The fire doesn't go out. That's sus, but it could be magical fire, so you'd need to make an investigation action or go stick your hand in it to be sure).
OK clearly the OP doesn't actually want other people's opinions. They have already made their decision, and will run it however they want (as they are fully entitled to) regardless of the written rules. So I'm off, all. Enjoy your futile arguments.
Rules Aren’t Physics. The rules of the game are meant to provide a fun game experience, not to describe the laws of physics in the worlds of D&D, let alone the real world.
Arguing on the basis of how light propagates irl is not the strongest case.
Well, RAW you can create any visible phenomenon, so it can create illusory light. Since you can hear, smell, feel heat, etc... major illusions outside their area, and you can therefore 'feel' (many types of) emitted light outside the illusion (because that's radiated heat, so pure RAW). Saying the illusory light itself cannot shine out of the illusion despite all the other things being able to escape the area of the illusion doesn't make any sense with how anything else about how illusions work. And Major Image also says "It seems real". It wouldn't seem real if the light didn't emit beyond the area. (And since that's in-line with the other senses, that looks pretty RAW to me).
Further, the rules might not be physics, but the rules aren't complete. The rules don't even tell you what it means to attack with a sword. You can make an attack with it, but what happens when you do that? I think we all agree that any DM who said an attack with a sword is spinning and tossing it around like a baton would be ridiculous.The way we know what should happen is we know something about how swords work in reality. That seeing is based on light hitting your retina is that level of basic knowledge - we know something about how eyes work in reality. Indeed, it's implicit in the definition of "seeing". Neither of these things are things the rules should need to tell us to make them true. Humans are humans, swords are swords, and eyeballs are eyeballs.
[...] Similarly, you don't have to be in the 5' cube of a minor illusion that makes an illusory sound to hear the sound. No one would dispute the sound is audible outside the area of effect. But clearly it's produced by the illusion and then travels out of that space. Light works the same way for visual effects. To decide otherwise is to decide illusions don't work at all.
For Minor Illusion, the image of an object it must be no larger than a 5-foot Cube. But if you create a sound, the Area of Effect is not defined.
It does have to be somewhere within 30' of you. Are you saying you can make the sound happen at 30' from you, and no one past 30' from you can hear it?
And that just kicks the can down the road to major image, which does have a defined area of effect, and can produce sounds. Are you saying the sounds made by a major image cannot be heard outside its area of effect? (Are you saying Minor Image sounds can be heard in a wider area than Major Image sounds?)
Sorry, no. I was just pointing out the Area of Effect is not defined when you choose "sound" for the Minor Illusion cantrip. You said it's 5-foot Cube and that's for the image option.
And yes, IMO, the sound could be heard like you're saying.
PS. Regarding "It does have to be somewhere within 30' of you", that's just the Range of the spell: "A spell’s range indicates how far from the spellcaster the spell’s effect can originate"
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Does it actually say that anywhere in the rules?
pronouns: he/she/they
Minor Illusion specifically mentions it can't create light. However, if you want to change the game state in some mechanical way, a spell would need to actually list that game mechanic.
If there isn't a general rule about it — and I'm honestly not sure one way or the other, that's why I asked — then the fact that Minor Illusion has an explicit restriction on it but other illusion spells don't means that the other illusion spells don't have that restriction. It doesn't seem particularly unreasonable to allow a leveled spell to do something that you can do with a cantrip like Light.
pronouns: he/she/they
im of the opinion when it reaches phenomenon level it probably can covers light, but i also vaguely remember a sage advice that implied otherwise though it may have been specific to a spell like minor illusion and not illusions in general.
i am not sure on that though as it is an illusion of light, not actual light. Like I think maybe lets say the room is 20 by 20 and major image covers the room. maybe it can illuminate the room but will the light pass outside of the room like light, i don't think so. And maybe it can't actually light up the room but you could create a duplicate room image with a fake monster but apparently lit up. but no light will pass out of the room, even though you can see the light from a distance. It is hard to say.
I think since discerning the illusion allows you to see through it means that these are more mental effects than actual physical illusions. if it were a hologram recognizing that it is an illusion would not change that it looks solid, how hot it feels etc. so no i don't think the light has to extend past the illusion size. I get your point on sound, but i do not think it is the same thing as light has a bigger game effect in lighting up dark areas. like where does this end if you create a dragon and it breathes fire, does the fire extend past the area, can the troll reach out of the area. clearly you have to make a break for some things to extend past the area while others don't. In this case, i think the light does not pass beyond the area.
If light doesn't extend beyond the area, you can't see it, because sight works by photons (ie light) hitting the cones in your eyes. So if light doesn't get to you, you literally can't see it.
However, the illusion of an illusory dragon breath obviously doesn't extend beyond the illusion, because you'd have to alter photons outside the area of the illusion. (Once they're altered, they travel until they hit something like any other photon. ie, the illusion necessarily alters photons inside the illusory area, and those photons travel outside with the new wavelength data instead of the natural data. But to make dragonbreath extend beyond the area of the illusion, you'd have to alter the photons outside the area, and that it can't do).
Similarly, if it's a major illusion that produces heat, you can feel that heat outside the illusion area. (The illusion produces illusory heat inside the area, and that illusory heat radiates outward). And sounds produced in the illusion radiate outwards as sound waves.
The investigate or physical interact = see through is you can tell it's an illusion, and the 'modifies photons (and heat and sound and etc...)' is actually an illusory skin on top of those things, and you see through that illusory skin and discern the real photons (heat/sound/etc..) underneath.
This is literally the only way illusions can actually work as described.
Above minor image (silent, major) they certainly can. Light is a visible phenomenon. This is pure RAW here, you can create any visible phenomenon. That could be a lightbulb/candle/etc.. that sheds light. That could be glow-in-the-dark stickers. That could be what looks like a firework. If it's something you see, Silent Image and above can create it.
Silent Image does. Any visible phenomenon means anything you can see. You can see light, ergo, it can produce an illusion of it.
It has to shine out of the area of the illusion, because otherwise you can't see it until you're in it, since light is how sight works. Think of visual illusions as magic that changes photons, which then travel wherever.
If it was mental, that would imply three things:
1. creatures should get a saving throw when they're cast, because it affects them. They don't. So clearly it's not changing their brain.
2. It would take creatures as targets, which it doesn't.
3. Major Image with a 4th level slot lasts forever until dispelled. If it was altering brains, that means a 4th level spell is affecting the brains of every single living creature on every plane (who could at some point see the major image) when cast. And not just those currently alive, but creatures yet to be born (since the illusion lasts forever).
#1-2 decisively rules out it being a change in the minds of observers. And #3 just makes it ridiculous if it's an affect internal to the mind of every observer. I don't think a Wish could accomplish that. (Change the mind of every creature that will ever live with no saving throw).
Reminder:
Rules Aren’t Physics. The rules of the game are meant to provide a fun game experience, not to describe the laws of physics in the worlds of D&D, let alone the real world.
Arguing on the basis of how light propagates irl is not the strongest case.
For Minor Illusion, the image of an object it must be no larger than a 5-foot Cube. But if you create a sound, the Area of Effect is not defined.
It does have to be somewhere within 30' of you. Are you saying you can make the sound happen at 30' from you, and no one past 30' from you can hear it?
And that just kicks the can down the road to major image, which does have a defined area of effect, and can produce sounds. Are you saying the sounds made by a major image cannot be heard outside its area of effect? (Are you saying Minor Image sounds can be heard in a wider area than Major Image sounds?)
Arguing things like light, sound, etc... produced by an illusion cannot leave the area of effect is a non-starter, because illusions simply don't work as intended or as written that way.
Not really, no. You can shout things in the heat of the moment, but you can't carryon a complex philosophical dialogue. Somewhere in the rules (apologies I don't have the time to find it), it mentions you can only say brief sentences during combat. So something like "Stop", "Surrender", "They're over there!", Absolutely! But: "I am Rehusthal, King Under the Mountain, the Burning Flame, and Master of the Infernal Forge, you shall bow to me, and my children, to plead for your lives, else I shall visit my wrath upon each of you, your kin, and your lands and they shall be uninhabitable from now until eternity! Now beg for your lives!" - not so much, certainly not without taking a full action to do so.
You can make up whatever rules you want as HB, but that is not RAW/RAI.
Read what I wrote again, you are not disagreeing with anything I said here.
Incorrect. Nothing about the Hide action or the Invisible condition affects whether or not the enemies know who did anything. In fact making an attack ends the Hidden condition thus they absolutely do know who made the attack. What the enemies do/don't know is completely up to the DM because it relies on lots of context. For instance an intelligent enemy who has fought the party before and knows the party is chasing them can figure out that Mr. Party Wizard is the one who counterspelled them regardless of whether Mr. Party Wizard is hidden or not.
Again incorrect, the 2024 rules state when the party encounters enemies both sides know it unless one side is being stealthy. Simply being inside a Darkness spell is not being stealthy, thus simply being in a darkness spell does not cause the enemies to not know you are there. Enemies can determine the location of player characters using sight, sound, and smell, as well as any special senses. Unless a character is Hiding (trying to be stealthy) they are making sufficient noise that the enemies can locate them, regardless of sightlines.
Again incorrect. Nothing in the rules states anything about the knowledge of the enemies, it is left entirely to the DM's discretion, because it depends on context. A mage in their tower will know a Rock that has suddenly appeared in their room, which fire came out of is an illusion and there is someone inside of it casting a spell. A zombie in a swamp not so much.
An illusion spell cannot "emit" light. It can create the illusion of light within the boundaries of the illusion, but the illusion cannot affect the appearance of anything beyond the limits of the illusion. Again read what I wrote, and read the spell. An illusion of a fire looks bright and hot but it cannot illuminate the room around it, nor cause creatures to cast a shadow.
Touch is not the only way to physically interact with something, the designers are completely capable of saying "a creature must touch the illusion to break it" if that is what they meant. But they didn't they said physically interact with it. If the enemies attempt to light an illusory bale of hay on fire it doesn't catch fire and the illusion is broken, if the enemies throw water on illusory cardboard box, it doesn't get wet & soggy and the illusion is broken, if the enemies throw a dart and an illusory door the dart goes straight through revealing it to be an illusion, if a ship with an illusory barrel on it suddenly tips to the side, the illusory barrel doesn't roll over the side of the ship nor does it create a splash when it hits the water revealing it to be an illusion, a rubber ball thrown at an illusory wall doesn't bounce off it revealing it to be an illusion, a dog bounding through an illusory hedge doesn't rustle any leaves revealing it to be an illusion. Do I need to go on?
1/ disagree. I mean yes, a monologue might take a round (or more), but an interactive conversation doesn't necessarily involve long monologues.
(As far as your example: rule of cool trumps exact timing. I'd totally let a player say that. See also: The Princess Bride's Inigo Montoya's "you killed my father" bits. Those easily fit into a round structure).
2/
a/ Just because they're aware of you doesn't mean they know who you are. Nothing in the rules say that. Your example is deduction: "I know there's a party after me, I know a spell was cast at me - it's probably that party's wizard." They could well be wrong. They don't know it's the party's wizard, they're assuming it is. Consider a creature knowingly being chased by a 3rd party when the PC party ambushes it from unseen positions - they might wrongly assume it was the 3rd party ambushing it, because they incorrectly deduce any ambush would be by that 3rd party. A spell or arrow coming from an unseen position does not give anyone the name, class, level, or challenge rating of the thing that cast the (verbal component) spell or fired the arrow, just the fact of the attack/spell (and where it came from).
Similarly, Counterspell has no verbal component. If the hidden or unseen wizard uses counterspell, there's no way for the enemy to know who did it. Again, they can guess or make assumptions, but they can't know.
b/From noticing other creatures: "If neither side is being stealthy, creatures automatically notice each other once they are within sight or hearing range of one another."
Well, if you're unseen, they can't see you. What's hearing range? Even if I'm not hiding, if I'm otherwise just standing still unseen, you'd have to be pretty darn close to hear me breathing, even in complete silence. Certainly closer than most spell ranges. So until I start chanting, you haven't noticed me. (And depending on how far away you are and what other sound there is, you may not even hear me chanting. If I'm 120' away, you don't even hear me chanting, even in low background noise conditions.)
And that means your claim "Unless a character is Hiding (trying to be stealthy) they are making sufficient noise that the enemies can locate them, regardless of sightlines." is wrong, because the rules specifically say they have to be within hearing range. If they aren't within hearing range, they can't hear you, and thus can't notice you. For someone standing quietly, hearing range is like 2' away for a human, if it's absolutely silent. (if there's any background noise, it's inaudible unless your ear is right by their mouth). A cat can hear someone breathing at maybe 5'. ie, what they are doing determines how much noise they are making. It doesn't take a hide check to just stand somewhere. And how much noise they are making determines what the hearing range is. (Now, once the wizard starts casting a spell, he's probably audible out to ~50-60' under normal background noise conditions, but that's much noisier than just standing there).
And 'notice you' does not mean "know who or what you are", just that someone or something is there.
c/ Yes, if you make an attack roll, it ends hiding (and hiding is quite specific on it being an attack roll). But Rime's is not an attack roll. It's a cone spell with no verbal components. Ergo, casting it doesn't break hiding. So if you're hidden, no one knows who cast it or where it came from (because if they knew either of those things, it would mean breaking hidden).
Burning hands only breaks hidden because it has a verbal component. If you were a sorceror with subtle spell, you could cast it subtly, and not break hidden.
d/ " A mage in their tower will know a Rock that has suddenly appeared in their room, which fire came out of is an illusion and there is someone inside of it casting a spell."
Nonsense. Maybe there's a spell the mage doesn't know which summons a rock that spits fire periodically (there's weirder stuff in the game). I mean, he'd be right to be suspicious. It might warrant an investigation action/roll to determine if it's an illusion, but he doesn't know it's an illusion. That's a guess. And it certainly doesn't automatically break the illusion.
4/ a/ You're just wrong by RAW here. Emitting light is a visible phenomenon, so Silent/Major image can do it. And since (visual) illusions necessarily work by producing/modifying light which then travels outside the area of effect, it necessarily must be able to emit light beyond the area of effect. Otherwise you cannot see an illusion outside its area of effect, because light reaching your eyes is literally the only way to see things. (And it must emit that light, because there is literally nothing for light to reflect off of, because its an illusion).
So yes, an illusory fire absolutely illuminates a room just like a real fire, until you disbelieve in it.
And major image says that it seems real. That means appearing to really emit light (which is indistinguishable from actually emitting light until you disbelieve it). And specifically calls out a bunch of things like sounds, smells, and temperatures, all of which can be sensed outside the area of effect. (Specifically calling out the other things is because it needs to tell you what else Major Image can make you sense, whereas visual elements are explicit in the first sentence). You're creating a double standard here between visual phenomenon and sounds, smells, and temperatures.
b/ I would say all those things are grounds to be suspicious and take an action to investigate, because they're sus. You haven't actually physically interacted with it, something else did.
But you're right, not just touch, but it has to be something where you should have gotten tactile feedback on the interaction. Ie, if you swing your sword at it (and hit), and the sword passes through it, that counts, because you should have felt the resistance of the sword hitting it, and you didn't. But throwing water at it, for example, generates no tactile feedback. You have to physically interact with it. Otherwise, it's sus, but not immediately illusion breaking.
(Consider throwing water on a fire. The fire doesn't go out. That's sus, but it could be magical fire, so you'd need to make an investigation action or go stick your hand in it to be sure).
OK clearly the OP doesn't actually want other people's opinions. They have already made their decision, and will run it however they want (as they are fully entitled to) regardless of the written rules. So I'm off, all. Enjoy your futile arguments.
Well, RAW you can create any visible phenomenon, so it can create illusory light. Since you can hear, smell, feel heat, etc... major illusions outside their area, and you can therefore 'feel' (many types of) emitted light outside the illusion (because that's radiated heat, so pure RAW). Saying the illusory light itself cannot shine out of the illusion despite all the other things being able to escape the area of the illusion doesn't make any sense with how anything else about how illusions work. And Major Image also says "It seems real". It wouldn't seem real if the light didn't emit beyond the area. (And since that's in-line with the other senses, that looks pretty RAW to me).
Further, the rules might not be physics, but the rules aren't complete. The rules don't even tell you what it means to attack with a sword. You can make an attack with it, but what happens when you do that? I think we all agree that any DM who said an attack with a sword is spinning and tossing it around like a baton would be ridiculous. The way we know what should happen is we know something about how swords work in reality. That seeing is based on light hitting your retina is that level of basic knowledge - we know something about how eyes work in reality. Indeed, it's implicit in the definition of "seeing". Neither of these things are things the rules should need to tell us to make them true. Humans are humans, swords are swords, and eyeballs are eyeballs.
Sorry, no. I was just pointing out the Area of Effect is not defined when you choose "sound" for the Minor Illusion cantrip. You said it's 5-foot Cube and that's for the image option.
And yes, IMO, the sound could be heard like you're saying.
PS. Regarding "It does have to be somewhere within 30' of you", that's just the Range of the spell: "A spell’s range indicates how far from the spellcaster the spell’s effect can originate"