If I have a soul trapped in a ring of mind shielding, could I for example cast Greater Restoration or Heal on the soul inside as long as I am holding or wearing the ring?
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I’m a decent DM and an above average rules lawyer I have several complete Pokedexes | I may be stupid, but at least I’m not smart! My favorite characters from dead threads; AMA: Aria, Rade, Kiano & Luz, Juniper, Ezra & Dr. Paine, Xi & his siblings, Misa Stay Paranoid!!! My Drummer given title is Swift as the Dragon, but The Diabolical One named me Virex the Whisperbrand, Architect of Echoes May the dice roll ever in your favor
If you do not have a Clear Path to the target creature, then you cannot target it with your spell. Also, it's pretty questionable whether or not a soul qualifies as a "creature" for the purpose of being a valid target.
A ghost is a disembodied soul, and you can target that with a ton of spells
a devil is the soul of an evil person put in a new body
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I’m a decent DM and an above average rules lawyer I have several complete Pokedexes | I may be stupid, but at least I’m not smart! My favorite characters from dead threads; AMA: Aria, Rade, Kiano & Luz, Juniper, Ezra & Dr. Paine, Xi & his siblings, Misa Stay Paranoid!!! My Drummer given title is Swift as the Dragon, but The Diabolical One named me Virex the Whisperbrand, Architect of Echoes May the dice roll ever in your favor
Heal is a creature you can see, and you can’t see it if it’s in the ring. Greater restoration is a creature you touch, and you can’t touch it when it’s inside the ring.
If they’ve been dead less than 200 years, and tell you their name you could pull off a true resurrection. If your idea is to revive them.
Also I’ll note, per the item description, the soul isn’t trapped in the ring. It can choose to move on to the afterlife whenever it likes.
A ghost is a disembodied soul, and you can target that with a ton of spells
a devil is the soul of an evil person put in a new body
Not all disembodied souls are ghosts, not all devils have the souls of evil people, and not all creatures have souls.
The spells require targeting a[rules]creature[/spells]. Maybe that definition is vague enough that you think a disembodied soul can normally be targeted. Come up with a stat block for them, then. Until one exists, they're off limits. You need a stat block to impose conditions and track hit points.
And, as @Xalthu already pointed out, the magic item already gets in the way. You cannot target a creature you cannot see, and you're not making physical contact to deliver a spell with a range of "Touch".
Is that true if you can touch minds while communicating with it, what if I wanted to cast trap the soul or magic jar to get this guy out of my ring?
Touch means physically touch, not metaphysically touch their mind. Read the descriptions of the various spells that might do what you want to see if they’ll work. But the vast, vast majority require a target you can see, at least, and often have touch as a requirement. And you can’t do either of those things. But in general, per the item description, that soul is in there until it decides to come out. You’ve got a new friend. Enjoy it.
I don't... why is nobody pointing out that, even if you could cast Greater Restoration or Heal on the soul trapped in the ring, it wouldn't matter? The soul isn't afflicted by the effect needing to be healed by Greater Restoration or the injuries needing to be healed by Heal, the body is. What would be the value of casting those spells on the soul?
I don't... why is nobody pointing out that, even if you could cast Greater Restoration or Heal on the soul trapped in the ring, it wouldn't matter? The soul isn't afflicted by the effect needing to be healed by Greater Restoration or the injuries needing to be healed by Heal, the body is. What would be the value of casting those spells on the soul?
They’re feebleminded
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I’m a decent DM and an above average rules lawyer I have several complete Pokedexes | I may be stupid, but at least I’m not smart! My favorite characters from dead threads; AMA: Aria, Rade, Kiano & Luz, Juniper, Ezra & Dr. Paine, Xi & his siblings, Misa Stay Paranoid!!! My Drummer given title is Swift as the Dragon, but The Diabolical One named me Virex the Whisperbrand, Architect of Echoes May the dice roll ever in your favor
I don't... why is nobody pointing out that, even if you could cast Greater Restoration or Heal on the soul trapped in the ring, it wouldn't matter? The soul isn't afflicted by the effect needing to be healed by Greater Restoration or the injuries needing to be healed by Heal, the body is. What would be the value of casting those spells on the soul?
They’re feebleminded
Ask your DM. I would personally allow you to use something, possibly depending on your explanation being clever enough. But that's certainly not what the rules would generally say.
(Heal shouldn't be able to do it. It only ends Blindness, Deafness, and Poisoned. If feebleminded is a reduction in ability scores, you'd just have to convince me you can touch it for Greater Restoration. If it's actually a Befuddlement spell, i don't think either works. If nothing else, Wish can definitely do it).
I don't... why is nobody pointing out that, even if you could cast Greater Restoration or Heal on the soul trapped in the ring, it wouldn't matter? The soul isn't afflicted by the effect needing to be healed by Greater Restoration or the injuries needing to be healed by Heal, the body is. What would be the value of casting those spells on the soul?
They’re feebleminded
Ask your DM. I would personally allow you to use something, possibly depending on your explanation being clever enough. But that's certainly not what the rules would generally say.
(Heal shouldn't be able to do it. It only ends Blindness, Deafness, and Poisoned. If feebleminded is a reduction in ability scores, you'd just have to convince me you can touch it for Greater Restoration. If it's actually a Befuddlement spell, i don't think either works. If nothing else, Wish can definitely do it).
*exhales* its a spell. That specifically calls out Heal and Greater Restoration as ways to cure the effect Feeblemind
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I’m a decent DM and an above average rules lawyer I have several complete Pokedexes | I may be stupid, but at least I’m not smart! My favorite characters from dead threads; AMA: Aria, Rade, Kiano & Luz, Juniper, Ezra & Dr. Paine, Xi & his siblings, Misa Stay Paranoid!!! My Drummer given title is Swift as the Dragon, but The Diabolical One named me Virex the Whisperbrand, Architect of Echoes May the dice roll ever in your favor
As mentioned back on Post #2, you do not have a clear path to the inside of the ring, so you cannot target the soul with any spells. Perhaps the soul could tell you where it's corpse is located?
As mentioned back on Post #2, you do not have a clear path to the inside of the ring, so you cannot target the soul with any spells. Perhaps the soul could tell you where it's corpse is located?
Already know where it is, but without a soul a corpse is just an object. And as mentioned above, the soul is feebleminded and therefore cannot understand language
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I’m a decent DM and an above average rules lawyer I have several complete Pokedexes | I may be stupid, but at least I’m not smart! My favorite characters from dead threads; AMA: Aria, Rade, Kiano & Luz, Juniper, Ezra & Dr. Paine, Xi & his siblings, Misa Stay Paranoid!!! My Drummer given title is Swift as the Dragon, but The Diabolical One named me Virex the Whisperbrand, Architect of Echoes May the dice roll ever in your favor
Oh, I see. As more details are coming out, I’m leaning more and more toward this being your DM giving you this as a quest. I’d look for some in-game solutions. Maybe visit a scholar or sage and find out more about the person. Maybe find some kind of high priest or high level cleric and see if they have some ideas for a solution.
As mentioned back on Post #2, you do not have a clear path to the inside of the ring, so you cannot target the soul with any spells. Perhaps the soul could tell you where it's corpse is located?
Already know where it is, but without a soul a corpse is just an object. And as mentioned above, the soul is feebleminded and therefore cannot understand language
In the 2024 rules, it appears that a corpse is still considered to be a creature. Many revival spells, for example, mention targeting a creature. It's just that there are special rules for dead creatures. The 2024 Rules Glossary has this to say on the subject:
Dead
A dead creature has no Hit Points and can’t regain them unless it is first revived by magic such as the Raise Dead or Revivify spell. When such a spell is cast, the spirit knows who is casting it and can refuse. The spirit of a dead creature has left the body and departed for the Outer Planes, and reviving the creature requires calling the spirit back.
If the creature returns to life, the revival effect determines the creature’s current Hit Points. Unless otherwise stated, the creature returns to life with any conditions, magical contagions, or curses that were affecting it at death if the durations of those effects are still ongoing. If the creature died with any Exhaustion levels, it returns with 1 fewer level. If the creature had Attunement to one or more magic items, it is no longer attuned to them.
According to this, a dead creature's spirit has left the body and departed for the Outer Planes. So, the separation of the soul from the corpse is of no concern with respect to the status of the corpse as a dead creature.
Another objection might be that the soul never made it to the Outer Planes, so is the corpse actually dead? According to the magic item's description, the creature must have died in order for the soul to enter the ring. My ruling to explain that would be that when the creature died, the soul DID depart for the Outer Planes, it just hasn't gotten there yet because the magic item grabbed it and held onto it while it was on its way there.
Next, a related objection might be that a revival spell only works according to the idea that "reviving the creature requires calling the spirit back [from the Outer Planes]". Now, does that mean that if the spirit never made it to the Outer Planes then the creature cannot be revived? Must it actually be located in the Outer Planes. My ruling on that would be no -- as long as the spirit has departed for the Outer Planes (which happens immediately upon death), it can be called back from wherever it happens to be. And since the ring is not necessarily "trapping" the spirit / soul inside since the soul always has the option to exit the ring and continue on for the afterlife (presumably at the Outer Planes), then I see no problem with just casting a revival spell on the corpse and having that result in the soul exiting the ring and returned to the body. It's the DM's call on this interpretation though.
Another issue in this situation might be around this clause: "the spirit knows who is casting it and can refuse". Does this mean that the spirit must be of sound mind in order for a revival spell to work correctly because the spirit must be given the choice about whether or not to refuse? Does the spirit / dead creature even need to be of sound mind in order to "know who is casting it" or is that just an innate instinct? Does casting a revival spell on a feebleminded dead creature cause an automatic refusal by default? Or it automatically works and actually cannot refuse by default? Does a soul / spirit even have any mental ability? Does it retain its mental stats? The DM would have to determine these things. My ruling is that the feebleminded soul (who explicitly CAN identify its friends) will be capable of identifying who is casting the revival spell.
Just to be sure, is it definitely the 2014 Feeblemind spell that you are dealing with in this situation? Because that spell seems to have been replaced by the 2024 Befuddlement spell which is similar but does not alter mental stats or impair communication.
There is also this clause within the above rules for dead creatures: "Unless otherwise stated, the creature returns to life with any conditions, magical contagions, or curses that were affecting it at death if the durations of those effects are still ongoing." This seems to imply that time keeps ticking on the duration, but such things might not actually affect the creature while it is dead -- only at (before) death and upon revival. Do the effects of Feeblemind even fall into any of those three categories? Due to the instantaneous nature of the spell and the ongoing effect that it causes, this feels like a "magical contagion" to me although the spell doesn't explicitly call it that.
One unusual aspect of this situation is that the spell itself has an instantaneous duration, but the consequence of a failed save is long lasting. So, you can't even really just wait out the duration of the spell since the spell effect has already instantaneously expired. You could attempt to wait out the long-lasting consequence -- every 30 days there is a chance to repeat the saving throw. In the case of Feeblemind, that's pretty difficult since the Intelligence score is 1 while attempting an Intelligence Saving Throw. Can a dead creature actually choose to make saving throws?
The DM would have to sort all of that out. But it seems to me like you should be able to just revive the creature if you have access to its corpse.
I don't... why is nobody pointing out that, even if you could cast Greater Restoration or Heal on the soul trapped in the ring, it wouldn't matter? The soul isn't afflicted by the effect needing to be healed by Greater Restoration or the injuries needing to be healed by Heal, the body is. What would be the value of casting those spells on the soul?
They’re feebleminded
Ask your DM. I would personally allow you to use something, possibly depending on your explanation being clever enough. But that's certainly not what the rules would generally say.
(Heal shouldn't be able to do it. It only ends Blindness, Deafness, and Poisoned. If feebleminded is a reduction in ability scores, you'd just have to convince me you can touch it for Greater Restoration. If it's actually a Befuddlement spell, i don't think either works. If nothing else, Wish can definitely do it).
*exhales* its a spell. That specifically calls out Heal and Greater Restoration as ways to cure the effect Feeblemind
That's the problem, I was searching 2024 rules, and it was renamed. It's now Befuddlement. But looking more closely, okay, yeah, Heal and Greater Restoration both work. You still have to find a way to touch (Gr. Restoration) or see (Heal) the soul.
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If I have a soul trapped in a ring of mind shielding, could I for example cast Greater Restoration or Heal on the soul inside as long as I am holding or wearing the ring?
I’m a decent DM and an above average rules lawyer
I have several complete Pokedexes | I may be stupid, but at least I’m not smart!
My favorite characters from dead threads; AMA: Aria, Rade, Kiano & Luz, Juniper, Ezra & Dr. Paine, Xi & his siblings, Misa Stay Paranoid!!!
My Drummer given title is Swift as the Dragon, but The Diabolical One named me Virex the Whisperbrand, Architect of Echoes
May the dice roll ever in your favor
If you do not have a Clear Path to the target creature, then you cannot target it with your spell. Also, it's pretty questionable whether or not a soul qualifies as a "creature" for the purpose of being a valid target.
Both are limited to only affecting creatures, so a better question would be, "Is a soul a creature?"
I don't think so.
A ghost is a disembodied soul, and you can target that with a ton of spells
a devil is the soul of an evil person put in a new body
I’m a decent DM and an above average rules lawyer
I have several complete Pokedexes | I may be stupid, but at least I’m not smart!
My favorite characters from dead threads; AMA: Aria, Rade, Kiano & Luz, Juniper, Ezra & Dr. Paine, Xi & his siblings, Misa Stay Paranoid!!!
My Drummer given title is Swift as the Dragon, but The Diabolical One named me Virex the Whisperbrand, Architect of Echoes
May the dice roll ever in your favor
Heal is a creature you can see, and you can’t see it if it’s in the ring. Greater restoration is a creature you touch, and you can’t touch it when it’s inside the ring.
If they’ve been dead less than 200 years, and tell you their name you could pull off a true resurrection. If your idea is to revive them.
Also I’ll note, per the item description, the soul isn’t trapped in the ring. It can choose to move on to the afterlife whenever it likes.
Is that true if you can touch minds while communicating with it, what if I wanted to cast trap the soul or magic jar to get this guy out of my ring?
Not all disembodied souls are ghosts, not all devils have the souls of evil people, and not all creatures have souls.
The spells require targeting a [rules]creature[/spells]. Maybe that definition is vague enough that you think a disembodied soul can normally be targeted. Come up with a stat block for them, then. Until one exists, they're off limits. You need a stat block to impose conditions and track hit points.
And, as @Xalthu already pointed out, the magic item already gets in the way. You cannot target a creature you cannot see, and you're not making physical contact to deliver a spell with a range of "Touch".
Touch means physically touch, not metaphysically touch their mind.
Read the descriptions of the various spells that might do what you want to see if they’ll work. But the vast, vast majority require a target you can see, at least, and often have touch as a requirement. And you can’t do either of those things.
But in general, per the item description, that soul is in there until it decides to come out. You’ve got a new friend. Enjoy it.
I don't... why is nobody pointing out that, even if you could cast Greater Restoration or Heal on the soul trapped in the ring, it wouldn't matter? The soul isn't afflicted by the effect needing to be healed by Greater Restoration or the injuries needing to be healed by Heal, the body is. What would be the value of casting those spells on the soul?
They’re feebleminded
I’m a decent DM and an above average rules lawyer
I have several complete Pokedexes | I may be stupid, but at least I’m not smart!
My favorite characters from dead threads; AMA: Aria, Rade, Kiano & Luz, Juniper, Ezra & Dr. Paine, Xi & his siblings, Misa Stay Paranoid!!!
My Drummer given title is Swift as the Dragon, but The Diabolical One named me Virex the Whisperbrand, Architect of Echoes
May the dice roll ever in your favor
Ask your DM. I would personally allow you to use something, possibly depending on your explanation being clever enough. But that's certainly not what the rules would generally say.
(Heal shouldn't be able to do it. It only ends Blindness, Deafness, and Poisoned. If feebleminded is a reduction in ability scores, you'd just have to convince me you can touch it for Greater Restoration. If it's actually a Befuddlement spell, i don't think either works. If nothing else, Wish can definitely do it).
*exhales* its a spell. That specifically calls out Heal and Greater Restoration as ways to cure the effect Feeblemind
I’m a decent DM and an above average rules lawyer
I have several complete Pokedexes | I may be stupid, but at least I’m not smart!
My favorite characters from dead threads; AMA: Aria, Rade, Kiano & Luz, Juniper, Ezra & Dr. Paine, Xi & his siblings, Misa Stay Paranoid!!!
My Drummer given title is Swift as the Dragon, but The Diabolical One named me Virex the Whisperbrand, Architect of Echoes
May the dice roll ever in your favor
As mentioned back on Post #2, you do not have a clear path to the inside of the ring, so you cannot target the soul with any spells. Perhaps the soul could tell you where it's corpse is located?
Already know where it is, but without a soul a corpse is just an object. And as mentioned above, the soul is feebleminded and therefore cannot understand language
I’m a decent DM and an above average rules lawyer
I have several complete Pokedexes | I may be stupid, but at least I’m not smart!
My favorite characters from dead threads; AMA: Aria, Rade, Kiano & Luz, Juniper, Ezra & Dr. Paine, Xi & his siblings, Misa Stay Paranoid!!!
My Drummer given title is Swift as the Dragon, but The Diabolical One named me Virex the Whisperbrand, Architect of Echoes
May the dice roll ever in your favor
Oh, I see. As more details are coming out, I’m leaning more and more toward this being your DM giving you this as a quest. I’d look for some in-game solutions. Maybe visit a scholar or sage and find out more about the person. Maybe find some kind of high priest or high level cleric and see if they have some ideas for a solution.
In the 2024 rules, it appears that a corpse is still considered to be a creature. Many revival spells, for example, mention targeting a creature. It's just that there are special rules for dead creatures. The 2024 Rules Glossary has this to say on the subject:
According to this, a dead creature's spirit has left the body and departed for the Outer Planes. So, the separation of the soul from the corpse is of no concern with respect to the status of the corpse as a dead creature.
Another objection might be that the soul never made it to the Outer Planes, so is the corpse actually dead? According to the magic item's description, the creature must have died in order for the soul to enter the ring. My ruling to explain that would be that when the creature died, the soul DID depart for the Outer Planes, it just hasn't gotten there yet because the magic item grabbed it and held onto it while it was on its way there.
Next, a related objection might be that a revival spell only works according to the idea that "reviving the creature requires calling the spirit back [from the Outer Planes]". Now, does that mean that if the spirit never made it to the Outer Planes then the creature cannot be revived? Must it actually be located in the Outer Planes. My ruling on that would be no -- as long as the spirit has departed for the Outer Planes (which happens immediately upon death), it can be called back from wherever it happens to be. And since the ring is not necessarily "trapping" the spirit / soul inside since the soul always has the option to exit the ring and continue on for the afterlife (presumably at the Outer Planes), then I see no problem with just casting a revival spell on the corpse and having that result in the soul exiting the ring and returned to the body. It's the DM's call on this interpretation though.
Another issue in this situation might be around this clause: "the spirit knows who is casting it and can refuse". Does this mean that the spirit must be of sound mind in order for a revival spell to work correctly because the spirit must be given the choice about whether or not to refuse? Does the spirit / dead creature even need to be of sound mind in order to "know who is casting it" or is that just an innate instinct? Does casting a revival spell on a feebleminded dead creature cause an automatic refusal by default? Or it automatically works and actually cannot refuse by default? Does a soul / spirit even have any mental ability? Does it retain its mental stats? The DM would have to determine these things. My ruling is that the feebleminded soul (who explicitly CAN identify its friends) will be capable of identifying who is casting the revival spell.
Just to be sure, is it definitely the 2014 Feeblemind spell that you are dealing with in this situation? Because that spell seems to have been replaced by the 2024 Befuddlement spell which is similar but does not alter mental stats or impair communication.
There is also this clause within the above rules for dead creatures: "Unless otherwise stated, the creature returns to life with any conditions, magical contagions, or curses that were affecting it at death if the durations of those effects are still ongoing." This seems to imply that time keeps ticking on the duration, but such things might not actually affect the creature while it is dead -- only at (before) death and upon revival. Do the effects of Feeblemind even fall into any of those three categories? Due to the instantaneous nature of the spell and the ongoing effect that it causes, this feels like a "magical contagion" to me although the spell doesn't explicitly call it that.
One unusual aspect of this situation is that the spell itself has an instantaneous duration, but the consequence of a failed save is long lasting. So, you can't even really just wait out the duration of the spell since the spell effect has already instantaneously expired. You could attempt to wait out the long-lasting consequence -- every 30 days there is a chance to repeat the saving throw. In the case of Feeblemind, that's pretty difficult since the Intelligence score is 1 while attempting an Intelligence Saving Throw. Can a dead creature actually choose to make saving throws?
The DM would have to sort all of that out. But it seems to me like you should be able to just revive the creature if you have access to its corpse.
That's the problem, I was searching 2024 rules, and it was renamed. It's now Befuddlement. But looking more closely, okay, yeah, Heal and Greater Restoration both work. You still have to find a way to touch (Gr. Restoration) or see (Heal) the soul.