It had minions all around but DM spread it out in every PC in the field. As i said, the DM didn't have knowledge about the spell and so when I used Guardian of Nature, he was shocked cause didn't broke the Viper Spell because it wasn't a Concentration spell. It was already too late, Now 15 feet of me was now a difficult terrain, i have adv on my Wisdome based attack and concentration spell. Oh did I mention I casted the spell 5th level so I have 25 THP. And I was a Spore Druid so if my THP dropped to single digit, i could just go Symbiotic Entity and gain 40 THP. This will however use an Action but I just wasted Monsters action on focusing on me while the rest of the party ganks on an Incapitated BBEG (Which was an Adult Dragon). We managed to finish the fight without the dragon being able to do a Dragon's breath.
more people should read your description here since this spell, when used intelligently in a build like yours, will do exactly this. Keeping that temp HP up for as long as you want using the multitude of abilities you have.
To the other commenters: maybe it needs to be said, but this spell isn't broken if you're a 1st time DnD player...? I just assumed we were all on that same understanding. Please read the above to see what you can do with this spell.
I play in a group where the DM is perhaps a bit overly generous with loot and magic items and allows all WoTC content. She tries to balance that out with challenging encounters. Since Sylune's viper came along, our druid, who has a 22 Wisdom and a magic item that gives +2 to their spell attack and spell DC amongst other things, has locked down two bosses for the entire fight. These are the only two fights we have had since the spell was introduced. One was an Ancient Blue Dragon. Locked down and nova damaged in a couple rounds by our bladesinger and my paladin. Given the myriad ways of getting advantage in D&D 2024, relying on high AC to avoid the effects of Sylune's viper is not a very safe bet. The druid in my party also has a pretty high AC (23 I think), and a defensive spell from one of these Magic: the gathering 5e spin off setting books that can mitigate (and reflect) a fair bit of damage. They can also just recast Sylune's viper when the temp HP goes away. So the possibility of losing the Temp HP is not really much of an impediment (we are 12th level currently). Admittedly a small sample size and the power level of our party is a bit stupid, but the spell seems encounter breaking unless the enemy creature is immune to being poisoned or immune to magic. There should be a saving throw against the incapacitated condition, or the creature should become immune to that effect for a day or an hour after being subjected to it once.
another great example of how busted this spell is! Thanks for sharing since some folks seem dumb founded at the idea that getting a high attack roll and advantage is "situational" but its actually incredibly easy to get if the party is working together.
also @Maruntoryx, I believe they mean 2 encounters after reading over this again. So 2 different encounters with 2 different bosses got shut off.
Turns out this spell is basically useless because it only lasts while you have the temp HP it gives you. I imagine any combat you use it in going like this:
Round 1: cast the spell and hit the attack roll, one enemy is now incapacitated.
The enemies gang up on you, you take 15+ damage, and the spell ends.
You have now spent a third level slot afflicting a creature with worse Hold Person for a single turn.
- it lasts as long as you have Temp HP. There are dozens of ways, especially as a Druid, to give yourself Temp HP. That Temp HP does NOT have to come from SV
- They could gank you but we should be assuming you're using SV at Range, not Melee. At range, you can attack at 50ft then move at minimum 30 feet elsewhere. Meaning, enemies will have to Action > Dash to get to you since you're 80 feet or more away or they use range attacks. But thats also assuming you are in range, and the enemies aren't being blocked by your Party, and assuming they get past your Shield spell as a Wizard/your high temp HP as a Druid.... you should never be using this in close range is the point. It is very easy, especially in an indoor setting, to attack with SV then grab cover.
- Hold person requires a save and the target to be Humanoid. So it doesnt work on like 90% of the MM where SV still works on about 70% that arent immune to Poisoned. A save is Legendary Resist-able and they get to save at the end of the turn while SV is not a save. Hold person is also Concentration while SV is not.
- So SV is literally the opposite of everything you said.... did you read either of those spells? The only better benefit of Hold Person is the Paralyzed condition for auto crit. But you'll never get Hold Person off on a boss with Legendary Resistances unless the DM is not paying attention.
On paper it's fine. An attack roll in a non-Monty Haul game should have about a 65% chance of success. A save against a weak save should have about a 65% chance of failure (of the spell succeeding). In theory, repeating an attack roll to maintain an effect should be equivalent to requiring a save. However, I think it's easier to gain advantage on the attack compared to imposing disadvantage on the save.
The strength of this spell relies more on the strength of your table than the spell itself, IMHO.
I play in a store-run West March campaign that has almost a dozen DMs. With some DMs this spell will lock down their session and bore everyone. With other DMs they can trivially counter this with any number "I'm-an-experienced-DM-who-knows-how-to-deal-problems" tricks.
So far the spell seems entirely manageable to me. Your tables may differ.
Sylune's Viper is an amazing effect for locking down a single target that has sucky AC. The damage on it is particularly poor, so it's not even very good for finishing off minion-level opponents. Locking down a single enemy with bad AC for a few turns is certainly a game-winning advantage in specific situations, and it's relatively cheap in that you can attempt that lockdown over and over again, even over maybe one other encounter.
It's still a bit of a niche effect in that it's not really very helpful when you're getting swarmed under a flood of relatively weak minions. It's also useless against things like Constructs and Undead. Good spell because it also gives you a climb speed and THP.
The Dragon example is a little interesting in that most DMs don't really flex using Dragons because they're a little afraid of TPKing the entire party, so they tend to hold back a whole damn lot. Dragons historically were overtuned for their CR rating, so people have reasons to be concerned. A Blue Dragon DOES have burrow speed, so it shouldn't very often be out in the open and vulnerable to attack. Theoretically, it could very easily grapple a PC, burrow down, leave the PC to die, and then come back up and grab more. You HAVE to lock down something that dangerous, or you're risking a TPK. (Most teleportations require you to be able to see your destination). Two turns of getting locked down and NOVA'd sounds about right. Could have flexed a bit more by using Lightning Breath and Frightful Presence a few times. Players like to see a monster strutting its stuff before they take it down.
Sylune's Viper is to be combo-ed with a putrid (Summon Undead) for paralysing the poisoned target (no save) right after. Apparently, that's why Sylune's Viper does not require concentration. Potentially a fine choice for an upcoming Necromancer subclass. Yes, it won't work on about 1 in 4 creatures, but that makes it still viable against 3 out of 4, and you should always have a contingency plan anyway. Frightened does not work on all creatures either, but spells and effects that can frighten are usually considered useful either.
Addendum: If your party has good timing, or knows how to utilise ready action, this can result in a lot of attacks made with advantage, and auto-crit on a hit.
Sylune's Viper is to be combo-ed with a putrid (Summon Undead) for paralysing the poisoned target (no save) right after. Apparently, that's why Sylune's Viper does not require concentration. Potentially a fine choice for an upcoming Necromancer subclass. Yes, it won't work on about 1 in 4 creatures, but that makes it still viable against 3 out of 4, and you should always have a contingency plan anyway. Frightened does not work on all creatures either, but spells and effects that can frighten are usually considered useful either.
Addendum: If your party has good timing, or knows how to utilise ready action, this can result in a lot of attacks made with advantage, and auto-crit on a hit.
For Sylune's Viper, the target is Incapacitated, not Paralyzed. Different conditions.
Can't take Actions, Bonus Actions, or Reactions
Concentration is broken
Can't speak
Disadvantage on Initiative rolls.
That's it.
There's nothing in the spell preventing the Ancient Blue Dragon from simply Burrowing out of the 50 foot range and staying underground for as long as it wants to. You only have one chance to make this happen this way because Lightning Breath has a 120' area and Frightful Presence is the same. It has no obligation to emerge within 50 feet of any PC. One blast with a Lightning Breath and there's every chance the spell is toast, and even if it isn't, that Dragon isn't coming within 50 feet of your spellcaster unless it's to grab them and literally bury them in sand.
For Sylune's Viper, the target is Incapacitated, not Paralyzed. Different conditions. Can't take Actions, Bonus Actions, or Reactions Concentration is broken Can't speakDisadvantage on Initiative rolls. That's it.
You obviously misunderstood.
I quote my very first sentence: "Sylune's Viper is to be combo-ed with a putrid (Summon Undead) for paralysing the poisoned target (no save)right after. "
Sylune's Viper provides the poisoned and incapacitated conditions on a hit. What does the Putrid do? What does the Putrid do? Let's read:
"Rotting Claw (Putrid Only). Melee Attack Roll: Bonus equals your spell attack modifier, reach 5 ft. Hit: 1d6 + 3 + the spell’s level Slashing damage. If the target has the Poisoned condition, it has the Paralyzed condition until the end of its next turn."
So, if you hit with Sylunes Viper, your Putrid, which takes it's turn right after yours can paralyze the poisoned target with it's attack(s).
For Sylune's Viper, the target is Incapacitated, not Paralyzed. Different conditions. Can't take Actions, Bonus Actions, or Reactions Concentration is broken Can't speakDisadvantage on Initiative rolls. That's it.
You obviously misunderstood.
I quote my very first sentence: "Sylune's Viper is to be combo-ed with a putrid (Summon Undead) for paralysing the poisoned target (no save)right after. "
Sylune's Viper provides the poisoned and incapacitated conditions on a hit. What does the Putrid do? What does the Putrid do? Let's read:
"Rotting Claw (Putrid Only). Melee Attack Roll: Bonus equals your spell attack modifier, reach 5 ft. Hit: 1d6 + 3 + the spell’s level Slashing damage. If the target has the Poisoned condition, it has the Paralyzed condition until the end of its next turn."
So, if you hit with Sylunes Viper, your Putrid, which takes it's turn right after yours can paralyze the poisoned target with it's attack(s).
NO SAVE!!!(2024 rules)
Are we on the same page now?
Gotcha. My bad.
It's very potent, indeed! Fine material to anchor the power of a subclass. I'm not really a Necromancer fan, but I'm interested to see where that goes. Kudos.
For Sylune's Viper, the target is Incapacitated, not Paralyzed. Different conditions. Can't take Actions, Bonus Actions, or Reactions Concentration is broken Can't speakDisadvantage on Initiative rolls. That's it.
You obviously misunderstood.
I quote my very first sentence: "Sylune's Viper is to be combo-ed with a putrid (Summon Undead) for paralysing the poisoned target (no save)right after. "
Sylune's Viper provides the poisoned and incapacitated conditions on a hit. What does the Putrid do? What does the Putrid do? Let's read:
"Rotting Claw (Putrid Only). Melee Attack Roll: Bonus equals your spell attack modifier, reach 5 ft. Hit: 1d6 + 3 + the spell’s level Slashing damage. If the target has the Poisoned condition, it has the Paralyzed condition until the end of its next turn."
So, if you hit with Sylunes Viper, your Putrid, which takes it's turn right after yours can paralyze the poisoned target with it's attack(s).
NO SAVE!!!(2024 rules)
Are we on the same page now?
In my opinion, Rotting Claw (Summon Undead) affects the target when the Poisoned condition was gained from Festering Aura (Summon Undead), not if it was imposed by other sources.
From a different but related thread, this is how I understand the Conditions rules:
Conditions Many effects impose a condition, a temporary state that alters the recipient’s capabilities. [...]
Each condition (e.g. Charmed by Charm Person, Charmed or Frightened by Beguiling Magic, Poisoned by Cunning Strike, Frightened by Intimidating Presence) lasts for the duration specified by the effect that imposed it. They're tracked independently because the sources (that is, the effects that caused them) are different (or can be, see below - Combining Spell Effects).
Duration A condition lasts either for a duration specified by the effect that imposed the condition or until the condition is countered (the Prone condition is countered by standing up, for example).
Finally, conditions don't stack, but "each instance of the condition has its own duration". The Exhaustion condition is an exception.
Conditions Don’t Stack If multiple effects impose the same condition on you, each instance of the condition has its own duration, but the condition’s effects don’t get worse. Either you have a condition or you don’t. The Exhaustion condition is an exception; its effects get worse if you have the condition and receive it again.
Also, in case you cast Charm Person twice on the same target, for example:
The effects of different spells add together while their durations overlap. In contrast, the effects of the same spell cast multiple times don’t combine. Instead, the most potent effect—such as the highest bonus—from those castings applies while their durations overlap. The most recent effect applies if the castings are equally potent and their durations overlap. For example, if two Clerics cast Bless on the same target, that target gains the spell’s benefit only once; the target doesn’t receive two bonus dice. But if the durations of the spells overlap, the effect continues until the duration of the second Bless ends.
The stat block states: "If the target has the Poisoned condition, it has the Paralyzed condition until the end of its next turn.", NOT "If the target has the Poisoned condition caused by Festering Aura, it has the Paralyzed condition until the end of its next turn."
To falsify your claim:
a) RAW there is no hint that the effect of Rotting Claw is exclusively triggered by the Poisoned condition caused by Festering Aura.
b) There is only one Poisoned Condition in this game...as there only is one Frightened condition for example. By your logic an Oath of Conquest Paladin's Aura of Conquest would have only worked with the Frightened condition caused by his Conquering Presence Channel Divinity, but not the Fear, or Wrathful Smite spell (which were in the subclass' repertoire), or the Fallen Aasimar's racial ability. Can you imagine how much your interpretation would have crippled this subclass?
My personal assumption:
c) Festering Aura has been only a means, if your character for some reason ran out of other options for synergies, i.E. ran out of spell slots to cast Ray of Sickness, so that the Putrid's ability is not completely wasted. Now with the Sylune's Viper there is another, more consistent option. And it does not matter where the condition comes from. It simply has to be there.
I hate to break it to you, but I am 100% certain that synergies are part of the game. And this is one of them.
more people should read your description here since this spell, when used intelligently in a build like yours, will do exactly this. Keeping that temp HP up for as long as you want using the multitude of abilities you have.
To the other commenters: maybe it needs to be said, but this spell isn't broken if you're a 1st time DnD player...? I just assumed we were all on that same understanding. Please read the above to see what you can do with this spell.
another great example of how busted this spell is! Thanks for sharing since some folks seem dumb founded at the idea that getting a high attack roll and advantage is "situational" but its actually incredibly easy to get if the party is working together.
also @Maruntoryx, I believe they mean 2 encounters after reading over this again. So 2 different encounters with 2 different bosses got shut off.
- it lasts as long as you have Temp HP. There are dozens of ways, especially as a Druid, to give yourself Temp HP. That Temp HP does NOT have to come from SV
- They could gank you but we should be assuming you're using SV at Range, not Melee. At range, you can attack at 50ft then move at minimum 30 feet elsewhere. Meaning, enemies will have to Action > Dash to get to you since you're 80 feet or more away or they use range attacks. But thats also assuming you are in range, and the enemies aren't being blocked by your Party, and assuming they get past your Shield spell as a Wizard/your high temp HP as a Druid.... you should never be using this in close range is the point. It is very easy, especially in an indoor setting, to attack with SV then grab cover.
- Hold person requires a save and the target to be Humanoid. So it doesnt work on like 90% of the MM where SV still works on about 70% that arent immune to Poisoned. A save is Legendary Resist-able and they get to save at the end of the turn while SV is not a save. Hold person is also Concentration while SV is not.
- So SV is literally the opposite of everything you said.... did you read either of those spells? The only better benefit of Hold Person is the Paralyzed condition for auto crit. But you'll never get Hold Person off on a boss with Legendary Resistances unless the DM is not paying attention.
On paper it's fine. An attack roll in a non-Monty Haul game should have about a 65% chance of success. A save against a weak save should have about a 65% chance of failure (of the spell succeeding). In theory, repeating an attack roll to maintain an effect should be equivalent to requiring a save. However, I think it's easier to gain advantage on the attack compared to imposing disadvantage on the save.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
The strength of this spell relies more on the strength of your table than the spell itself, IMHO.
I play in a store-run West March campaign that has almost a dozen DMs. With some DMs this spell will lock down their session and bore everyone. With other DMs they can trivially counter this with any number "I'm-an-experienced-DM-who-knows-how-to-deal-problems" tricks.
So far the spell seems entirely manageable to me. Your tables may differ.
Sylune's Viper is an amazing effect for locking down a single target that has sucky AC. The damage on it is particularly poor, so it's not even very good for finishing off minion-level opponents. Locking down a single enemy with bad AC for a few turns is certainly a game-winning advantage in specific situations, and it's relatively cheap in that you can attempt that lockdown over and over again, even over maybe one other encounter.
It's still a bit of a niche effect in that it's not really very helpful when you're getting swarmed under a flood of relatively weak minions. It's also useless against things like Constructs and Undead. Good spell because it also gives you a climb speed and THP.
The Dragon example is a little interesting in that most DMs don't really flex using Dragons because they're a little afraid of TPKing the entire party, so they tend to hold back a whole damn lot. Dragons historically were overtuned for their CR rating, so people have reasons to be concerned. A Blue Dragon DOES have burrow speed, so it shouldn't very often be out in the open and vulnerable to attack. Theoretically, it could very easily grapple a PC, burrow down, leave the PC to die, and then come back up and grab more. You HAVE to lock down something that dangerous, or you're risking a TPK. (Most teleportations require you to be able to see your destination). Two turns of getting locked down and NOVA'd sounds about right. Could have flexed a bit more by using Lightning Breath and Frightful Presence a few times. Players like to see a monster strutting its stuff before they take it down.
Sylune's Viper is to be combo-ed with a putrid (Summon Undead) for paralysing the poisoned target (no save) right after. Apparently, that's why Sylune's Viper does not require concentration. Potentially a fine choice for an upcoming Necromancer subclass. Yes, it won't work on about 1 in 4 creatures, but that makes it still viable against 3 out of 4, and you should always have a contingency plan anyway. Frightened does not work on all creatures either, but spells and effects that can frighten are usually considered useful either.
Addendum: If your party has good timing, or knows how to utilise ready action, this can result in a lot of attacks made with advantage, and auto-crit on a hit.
For Sylune's Viper, the target is Incapacitated, not Paralyzed. Different conditions.
Can't take Actions, Bonus Actions, or Reactions
Concentration is broken
Can't speak
Disadvantage on Initiative rolls.
That's it.
There's nothing in the spell preventing the Ancient Blue Dragon from simply Burrowing out of the 50 foot range and staying underground for as long as it wants to. You only have one chance to make this happen this way because Lightning Breath has a 120' area and Frightful Presence is the same. It has no obligation to emerge within 50 feet of any PC. One blast with a Lightning Breath and there's every chance the spell is toast, and even if it isn't, that Dragon isn't coming within 50 feet of your spellcaster unless it's to grab them and literally bury them in sand.
You obviously misunderstood.
I quote my very first sentence: "Sylune's Viper is to be combo-ed with a putrid (Summon Undead) for paralysing the poisoned target (no save) right after. "
Sylune's Viper provides the poisoned and incapacitated conditions on a hit. What does the Putrid do? What does the Putrid do? Let's read:
"Rotting Claw (Putrid Only). Melee Attack Roll: Bonus equals your spell attack modifier, reach 5 ft. Hit: 1d6 + 3 + the spell’s level Slashing damage. If the target has the Poisoned condition, it has the Paralyzed condition until the end of its next turn."
So, if you hit with Sylunes Viper, your Putrid, which takes it's turn right after yours can paralyze the poisoned target with it's attack(s).
NO SAVE!!!(2024 rules)
Are we on the same page now?
Gotcha. My bad.
It's very potent, indeed! Fine material to anchor the power of a subclass. I'm not really a Necromancer fan, but I'm interested to see where that goes. Kudos.
In my opinion, Rotting Claw (Summon Undead) affects the target when the Poisoned condition was gained from Festering Aura (Summon Undead), not if it was imposed by other sources.
From a different but related thread, this is how I understand the Conditions rules:
The stat block states: "If the target has the Poisoned condition, it has the Paralyzed condition until the end of its next turn.", NOT "If the target has the Poisoned condition caused by Festering Aura, it has the Paralyzed condition until the end of its next turn."
To falsify your claim:
a) RAW there is no hint that the effect of Rotting Claw is exclusively triggered by the Poisoned condition caused by Festering Aura.
b) There is only one Poisoned Condition in this game...as there only is one Frightened condition for example. By your logic an Oath of Conquest Paladin's Aura of Conquest would have only worked with the Frightened condition caused by his Conquering Presence Channel Divinity, but not the Fear, or Wrathful Smite spell (which were in the subclass' repertoire), or the Fallen Aasimar's racial ability. Can you imagine how much your interpretation would have crippled this subclass?
My personal assumption:
c) Festering Aura has been only a means, if your character for some reason ran out of other options for synergies, i.E. ran out of spell slots to cast Ray of Sickness, so that the Putrid's ability is not completely wasted. Now with the Sylune's Viper there is another, more consistent option. And it does not matter where the condition comes from. It simply has to be there.
I hate to break it to you, but I am 100% certain that synergies are part of the game. And this is one of them.
Ok, maybe it's just my POV based on similar interactions, but the one you proposed could be different and I might be wrong.
Just leaving here some debates related to Conditions:
- Vengeful Paladin's being Scary - Rules & Game Mechanics - this one could be similar to Aura of Conquest + Wrathful Smite, I think.
- Charmed Condition Clarification - Rules & Game Mechanics
- How does Contagion work? - Rules & Game Mechanics
- Scarecrow 2024 M - Rules & Game Mechanics
- What happens on a succesful save against Contagion? - Rules & Game Mechanics
Putrid Undead also works great with Mercy Monks.