Is Syluné’s Viper correct? There's no save for the Poisoned or Incapacitated condition? The duration is 1 hour? A wizard or Druid can stun lock (or multiple together even) an entire encounter preventing monsters from having any action economy with just a 3rd level slot?
Is Syluné’s Viper correct? There's no save for the Poisoned or Incapacitated condition? The duration is 1 hour? A wizard or Druid can stun lock (or multiple together even) an entire encounter preventing monsters from having any action economy with just a 3rd level slot?
I think you are reading it wrong. The spell's duration is an hour. The effect lasts until the start of your next turn. so you can lock one creature down by continuing to attack it over and over, but you don't lock for an hour, then move on to the next creature and lock for an hour, etc.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Is Syluné’s Viper correct? There's no save for the Poisoned or Incapacitated condition? The duration is 1 hour? A wizard or Druid can stun lock (or multiple together even) an entire encounter preventing monsters from having any action economy with just a 3rd level slot?
I think you are reading it wrong. The spell's duration is an hour. The effect lasts until the start of your next turn. so you can lock one creature down by continuing to attack it over and over, but you don't lock for an hour, then move on to the next creature and lock for an hour, etc.
That's what I mean, you can lock down a creature with a no save and incapacitate which seems not correct. Even 9th level Imprisonment still requires a save for incapacitate.
There's no save, but there is an attack roll. As such, there's still a chance the attempt may fail.
Correct, but if we're given context clues from previous spells we understand that Incapacitate is such a strong ability that it needs a Legendary Resistance-able trigger AKA a save. There are 9 spells from official content that can Incapacitate a creature. Every single one requires failing a save before that effect happens. There's clearly a reason for that.
And that's what makes this new spell so OP: You can stun lock a BBEG out of the fight. Portent Wizards and Star Druids with their ability to add or change numbers are going to stun lock boss fights with ease. Not to mention all the different ways of gaining advantage on attacks or just straight up using Bardic Inspiration, Lucky, Heroic Inspiration...
That's why Legendary Resistances exist: so that you CAN'T auto lock a boss' action economy. But to be fair, it does require the creature to be Poisoned. So this has no effect on Vecna, Acerak, and most Fiends. But as only a 3rd level spell, I'm not sure why this doesn't require a save.
This kind of spell, if used, will make DM's start using it against players. Which will not be fun for anyone.
Additionally, the range of the spell is not great. It is only 50 feet. Incapacitated creatures can still move allowing the creature to move further away and possibly out of range, or directly towards the caster, making their next attack at Disadvantage (barring features that allow them to make Ranged attacks while a creature is adjacent without Disadvantage). Because the Incapacitated condition ends at the start of their turn, if they try and move away to avoid Disadvantage the creature will probably get an Attack of Opportunity (again, barring features) because they are no longer Incapacitated.
Additionally, the range of the spell is not great. It is only 50 feet. Incapacitated creatures can still move allowing the creature to move further away and possibly out of range, or directly towards the caster, making their next attack at Disadvantage (barring features that allow them to make Ranged attacks while a creature is adjacent without Disadvantage). Because the Incapacitated condition ends at the start of their turn, if they try and move away to avoid Disadvantage the creature will probably get an Attack of Opportunity (again, barring features) because they are no longer Incapacitated.
Well, if you incapacitate the creature then most creatures that have a base speed of 30 will only be able to move 30 ft. So, if you attack them at 50 ft, they move 30, they are 80/20 ft away on your turn depending if they moved further or closer. Since most player characters also have a base speed of 30, all you have to do is move 30 feet up and then you're in range again. You would also be allowed to Misty step and then use your action to trigger the spell since it's not a spell slot you're using for your action.
Remember that incapacitate means they can't take reactions, actions, or bonus actions. So as long as they have a normal movement speed they essentially cannot escape the range of the spell or come close to your threat range.
There's another detail not yet brought up: The entire spell ends if you lose your temp HP. So you need the monster to:
-Not have a high move speed -Not have immunity to the Poisoned condition -Not have a high enough AC that you miss -Not have any minions capable of dealing a total of 15 damage to you
There's another detail not yet brought up: The entire spell ends if you lose your temp HP. So you need the monster to:
-Not have a high move speed -Not have immunity to the Poisoned condition -Not have a high enough AC that you miss -Not have any minions capable of dealing a total of 15 damage to you
The spell's fine.
- most monsters have 30 foot speed. Even a 50 foot speed cannot catch you since you are ideally attacking at 50 foot range which you then can move 30 or more feet back. Since they cannot take Actions or Bonus actions, this means they can only move their base speed. An Incapacitated creature will not catch you unless the thing has a crazy high speed like a Roc. But that's, what, less than 1% of all monsters that push 50 foot speed? Also, the Martial in your party could Topple the Incapacitated target meaning their speed is now half. Or just hit them with the Slow mastery property that doesn't even require saves.
- I've pointed out already that Poisoned is a common immunity for certain creature types. But that still leaves something around 70% of the Monster Manual to be stun locked.
- I also have already pointed out that since this is a Druid or Wizard spell, Star Druid's Weal and Portent Wizard's portent die laugh at the idea of not being able to hit. Not to mention Lucky, Human Inspiration, Bardic Inspiration and/or your party in general setting up advantage in numerous ways. Given the average AC of higher CR creatures is something around 15-18, your optimized Druid or Wizard with at minimum +7 to hit is going to have at minimum 50%-65% chance to hit before you add in the bonuses or abilities previously mentioned (and not including anything granting advantage).
- That's assuming you allowed yourself to be ganked, your party isn't already blocking or killing minions, you didn't take cover behind a wall preventing range attacks, and those range attacks can reach you. Not many attacks pushing 50+ feet on Monster Manual creatures. And that's assuming they hit and you dont Portent die or Weal them with the abilities described above. Or, just cast Shield. Or you replaced your temp HP from one of your own abilities or an allies. Like the Druid who can just give themselves Temp HP from Wildshape lmao.
There's another detail not yet brought up: The entire spell ends if you lose your temp HP. So you need the monster to:
-Not have a high move speed -Not have immunity to the Poisoned condition -Not have a high enough AC that you miss -Not have any minions capable of dealing a total of 15 damage to you
The spell's fine.
- most monsters have 30 foot speed. Even a 50 foot speed cannot catch you since you are ideally attacking at 50 foot range which you then can move 30 or more feet back. Since they cannot take Actions or Bonus actions, this means they can only move their base speed. An Incapacitated creature will not catch you unless the thing has a crazy high speed like a Roc. But that's, what, less than 1% of all monsters that push 50 foot speed? Also, the Martial in your party could Topple the Incapacitated target meaning their speed is now half. Or just hit them with the Slow mastery property that doesn't even require saves.
- I've pointed out already that Poisoned is a common immunity for certain creature types. But that still leaves something around 70% of the Monster Manual to be stun locked.
- I also have already pointed out that since this is a Druid or Wizard spell, Star Druid's Weal and Portent Wizard's portent die laugh at the idea of not being able to hit. Not to mention Lucky, Human Inspiration, Bardic Inspiration and/or your party in general setting up advantage in numerous ways. Given the average AC of higher CR creatures is something around 15-18, your optimized Druid or Wizard with at minimum +7 to hit is going to have at minimum 50%-65% chance to hit before you add in the bonuses or abilities previously mentioned (and not including anything granting advantage).
- That's assuming you allowed yourself to be ganked, your party isn't already blocking or killing minions, you didn't take cover behind a wall preventing range attacks, and those range attacks can reach you. Not many attacks pushing 50+ feet on Monster Manual creatures. And that's assuming they hit and you dont Portent die or Weal them with the abilities described above. Or, just cast Shield. Or you replaced your temp HP from one of your own abilities or an allies. Like the Druid who can just give themselves Temp HP from Wildshape lmao.
If you attack at 50 feet there is a very good chance that they can just take cover and prevent a second attack. Yes, if they move towards you you can move away, but only after they are no longer incapacitated. This means you have a limited 'safe' range of 35-50 feet (even less if their move is over 30') and they still have quite a few valid counters.
And I'm not sure what you mean about not many attacks pushing 50+ feet. Lets and lots of creatures can launch ranged attacks, and those that can't fairly frequently have movement over 30'.
Even if there is cover for the creature, the players 90% of the time have more options to grant bonuses to roll per what I've listed already (again, Portent Wizards can literally just replace dice). I can't think of many, if any, monsters in the new MM that give anything other than their base +X to hit.
The range attack thing I think I will in good faith concede that point. But since Shield is a reaction spell that adds +5 to AC and that's before potential cover bonuses (or even falling prone on purpose to grant disadvantage to range), I see most scenarios where this spell will last the full hour.
not me being validated :))))) it's pretty sad that most people's opinions will be changed about the spell because a YouTuber said something about it instead of them having the intellectual capacity to just.... read.... but whatever lmao. Least I have proof I was calling this thing overpowered before dungeon dudes did.
I agree with OP, if for no other reason than having a near automatic method for shutting down concentration is brutal. Especially at high levels when 3rd level spells are trivial, getting to stop a Storm of Vengeance with nothing more than an attack roll is crazy powerful. From a player perspective, suddenly your Polymorphs are useless if a DM opts to use this.
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Is Syluné’s Viper correct? There's no save for the Poisoned or Incapacitated condition? The duration is 1 hour? A wizard or Druid can stun lock (or multiple together even) an entire encounter preventing monsters from having any action economy with just a 3rd level slot?
https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/3078519-sylunes-viper
I think you are reading it wrong. The spell's duration is an hour. The effect lasts until the start of your next turn. so you can lock one creature down by continuing to attack it over and over, but you don't lock for an hour, then move on to the next creature and lock for an hour, etc.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
That's what I mean, you can lock down a creature with a no save and incapacitate which seems not correct. Even 9th level Imprisonment still requires a save for incapacitate.
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ModeratorThere's no save, but there is an attack roll. As such, there's still a chance the attempt may fail.
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Correct, but if we're given context clues from previous spells we understand that Incapacitate is such a strong ability that it needs a Legendary Resistance-able trigger AKA a save. There are 9 spells from official content that can Incapacitate a creature. Every single one requires failing a save before that effect happens. There's clearly a reason for that.
And that's what makes this new spell so OP: You can stun lock a BBEG out of the fight. Portent Wizards and Star Druids with their ability to add or change numbers are going to stun lock boss fights with ease. Not to mention all the different ways of gaining advantage on attacks or just straight up using Bardic Inspiration, Lucky, Heroic Inspiration...
That's why Legendary Resistances exist: so that you CAN'T auto lock a boss' action economy. But to be fair, it does require the creature to be Poisoned. So this has no effect on Vecna, Acerak, and most Fiends. But as only a 3rd level spell, I'm not sure why this doesn't require a save.
This kind of spell, if used, will make DM's start using it against players. Which will not be fun for anyone.
Additionally, the range of the spell is not great. It is only 50 feet. Incapacitated creatures can still move allowing the creature to move further away and possibly out of range, or directly towards the caster, making their next attack at Disadvantage (barring features that allow them to make Ranged attacks while a creature is adjacent without Disadvantage). Because the Incapacitated condition ends at the start of their turn, if they try and move away to avoid Disadvantage the creature will probably get an Attack of Opportunity (again, barring features) because they are no longer Incapacitated.
Well, if you incapacitate the creature then most creatures that have a base speed of 30 will only be able to move 30 ft. So, if you attack them at 50 ft, they move 30, they are 80/20 ft away on your turn depending if they moved further or closer. Since most player characters also have a base speed of 30, all you have to do is move 30 feet up and then you're in range again. You would also be allowed to Misty step and then use your action to trigger the spell since it's not a spell slot you're using for your action.
Remember that incapacitate means they can't take reactions, actions, or bonus actions. So as long as they have a normal movement speed they essentially cannot escape the range of the spell or come close to your threat range.
There's another detail not yet brought up: The entire spell ends if you lose your temp HP. So you need the monster to:
-Not have a high move speed
-Not have immunity to the Poisoned condition
-Not have a high enough AC that you miss
-Not have any minions capable of dealing a total of 15 damage to you
The spell's fine.
- most monsters have 30 foot speed. Even a 50 foot speed cannot catch you since you are ideally attacking at 50 foot range which you then can move 30 or more feet back. Since they cannot take Actions or Bonus actions, this means they can only move their base speed. An Incapacitated creature will not catch you unless the thing has a crazy high speed like a Roc. But that's, what, less than 1% of all monsters that push 50 foot speed? Also, the Martial in your party could Topple the Incapacitated target meaning their speed is now half. Or just hit them with the Slow mastery property that doesn't even require saves.
- I've pointed out already that Poisoned is a common immunity for certain creature types. But that still leaves something around 70% of the Monster Manual to be stun locked.
- I also have already pointed out that since this is a Druid or Wizard spell, Star Druid's Weal and Portent Wizard's portent die laugh at the idea of not being able to hit. Not to mention Lucky, Human Inspiration, Bardic Inspiration and/or your party in general setting up advantage in numerous ways. Given the average AC of higher CR creatures is something around 15-18, your optimized Druid or Wizard with at minimum +7 to hit is going to have at minimum 50%-65% chance to hit before you add in the bonuses or abilities previously mentioned (and not including anything granting advantage).
- That's assuming you allowed yourself to be ganked, your party isn't already blocking or killing minions, you didn't take cover behind a wall preventing range attacks, and those range attacks can reach you. Not many attacks pushing 50+ feet on Monster Manual creatures. And that's assuming they hit and you dont Portent die or Weal them with the abilities described above. Or, just cast Shield. Or you replaced your temp HP from one of your own abilities or an allies. Like the Druid who can just give themselves Temp HP from Wildshape lmao.
If you attack at 50 feet there is a very good chance that they can just take cover and prevent a second attack. Yes, if they move towards you you can move away, but only after they are no longer incapacitated. This means you have a limited 'safe' range of 35-50 feet (even less if their move is over 30') and they still have quite a few valid counters.
And I'm not sure what you mean about not many attacks pushing 50+ feet. Lets and lots of creatures can launch ranged attacks, and those that can't fairly frequently have movement over 30'.
Even if there is cover for the creature, the players 90% of the time have more options to grant bonuses to roll per what I've listed already (again, Portent Wizards can literally just replace dice). I can't think of many, if any, monsters in the new MM that give anything other than their base +X to hit.
The range attack thing I think I will in good faith concede that point. But since Shield is a reaction spell that adds +5 to AC and that's before potential cover bonuses (or even falling prone on purpose to grant disadvantage to range), I see most scenarios where this spell will last the full hour.
not me being validated :))))) it's pretty sad that most people's opinions will be changed about the spell because a YouTuber said something about it instead of them having the intellectual capacity to just.... read.... but whatever lmao. Least I have proof I was calling this thing overpowered before dungeon dudes did.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62K5Rh2mMRw&t=2392s
I agree with OP, if for no other reason than having a near automatic method for shutting down concentration is brutal. Especially at high levels when 3rd level spells are trivial, getting to stop a Storm of Vengeance with nothing more than an attack roll is crazy powerful. From a player perspective, suddenly your Polymorphs are useless if a DM opts to use this.