I'm prepping for an upcoming session where the party is likely to encounter an enemy hiding near the entrance to their fortress. The enemy has a once per day Invisibility bonus action (Orc Garroter from Flee, Mortals), and should the party fail to spot him in hiding, he will attempt to use this ability to land a surprise attack on one of the players. All of this should hopefully sound pretty straightforward. What I can't seem to pin down is how 5.5e wants me to go about making this initial attack while under the Invisible condition.
I have read all sorts of explanations on the updated Surprise conditions and all of that, but what is tripping me up is when Initiative rolls should actually take place in a situation like this. For instance, the Invisibility condition ends when the Orc makes an attack roll, however, if he wants to ambush and surprise the party, then Initiative is rolled with Advantage and the players with Disadvantage. It's unclear to me if this is intended to take place before any attack is actually made against the players. If so, then there's a chance that one of the players may still be able to act first in the order. And if that were to happen, the Orc would still be Invisible as they have not made an attack roll. Is that really how this is meant to play out? Am I making this way to confusing for myself? I want to be fair to the players, and even if this hypothetical isn't all that likely, the rules do not seem to make sense of how initiating combat whilst Invisible is meant to go.
It's unclear to me if this is intended to take place before any attack is actually made against the players. If so, then there's a chance that one of the players may still be able to act first in the order. And if that were to happen, the Orc would still be Invisible as they have not made an attack roll. Is that really how this is meant to play out?
That is all, basically, true and correct. Initiative is rolled to see if other people get to act first, though that's somewhat unlikely with all the advantage/disadvantage effects. The PCs may just be "fast enough" to act first, anyway. For the attack itself, invisibility just gives advantage, making it more likely to hit, not a guaranteed "free hit."
You've found the correct rules. I would say, make a Stealth check with Advantage for the Orc and compare it to the party's passive perception, and then roll initiative.
If no PC's passive perception beats the Orc's stealth check (and the Orc rolls a 15 or higher, according to the new Stealth rules). I would rule that players who have Initiative roll above the ambusher can only proceed as if they are unaware of the presence of a creature. The characters are unaware that initiative has been rolled, therefore can't take actions which would try and reveal the ambusher, that is out-of-game knowledge. The Orc would still be invisible because there has been no attack roll.
If a PC's passive perception beats the Orc's stealth check, OR the Orc rolls a 14 or lower, then the PC's can get a sense or instinct that something isn't quite right, but not a sense of where. In this case, they could take actions to try and detect the Orc ahead of time. Perhaps only allow this if the PC who beats the check calls out to the party that something isn't right.
It seems odd to me that there's still a possible situation where a player rolls a higher initiative (despite being Surprised) but is still entirely unaware of what triggered Initiative to begin with nor why they are Surprised. I'm sure I could describe something passable in the moment, but I wish this made more sense to me narratively in the RAW.
It seems odd to me that there's still a possible situation where a player rolls a higher initiative (despite being Surprised) but is still entirely unaware of what triggered Initiative to begin with nor why they are Surprised. I'm sure I could describe something passable in the moment, but I wish this made more sense to me narratively in the RAW.
Why would you not do a passive perception roll 1st like I mentioned above?
It seems odd to me that there's still a possible situation where a player rolls a higher initiative (despite being Surprised) but is still entirely unaware of what triggered Initiative to begin with nor why they are Surprised. I'm sure I could describe something passable in the moment, but I wish this made more sense to me narratively in the RAW.
Why would you not do a passive perception roll 1st like I mentioned above?
I agree that a passive perception check should be made to detect the Orc from the beginning, but what I am sort of getting at here is that the updated 5.5e rules do not seem to suggest the Orc should get to make an attack roll against the players outside of Initiative. It seems more in line with what Stabbey has stated, albeit that has significantly more overhead for what should otherwise be an intense moment.
All that said, I'm more inclined to rule that the Orc does get to make his attack before Initiative is rolled and could even count that as his action for that initial round, regardless of how the order shakes out.
It seems odd to me that there's still a possible situation where a player rolls a higher initiative (despite being Surprised) but is still entirely unaware of what triggered Initiative to begin with nor why they are Surprised. I'm sure I could describe something passable in the moment, but I wish this made more sense to me narratively in the RAW.
Though turn-based combat hides this very well, everything in a round is supposed to be happening ~simultaneously. Narratively, a sword or whatever is swishing out of nowhere to hit someone; maaaaybe their reaction time is good enough that they get to do "stuff" before taking the hit, even though (again, narratively) they are taking the hit right away.
At least, since the attacker is invisible, at worst someone else might get to attack them at disadvantage if they "go first."
Obviously, everything comes out weird if enough of the PCs still go first and are able to take the invisible attacker out before the attack actually resolves. But that's pretty unlikely, and the DM may rule that the initial attack still gets to happen, or whatever. Technically, the DM is the only factor that determines when initiative is rolled; maybe they decide the attack just happens for free, first.
For instance, the Invisibility condition ends when the Orc makes an attack roll, however, if he wants to ambush and surprise the party, then Initiative is rolled with Advantage and the players with Disadvantage. It's unclear to me if this is intended to take place before any attack is actually made against the players. If so, then there's a chance that one of the players may still be able to act first in the order. And if that were to happen, the Orc would still be Invisible as they have not made an attack roll. Is that really how this is meant to play out?
Initiative is intended to determine turn order and should take place before any attack. If a character act before the Orc, it would incidentally know there's an imminent threat since it's been surprised by combat starting. 5E24 surprise and Initiative rules between the Player's Handbook and Dungeon Master Guide offers me enought guidelines to come up with various options;
A simple way for DM to ensure a invisible creature acts before surprised one is to useInitiative Scoreinstead of rolling;
Ambusher: 15 + DEX mod
Surprised: 05 + DEX mod
Combat Is for Enemies. Some rules apply only during combat or while a character is acting in Initiative order. Don’t let players attack each other or helpless creatures to activate those rules.
Surprise. If a combatant is surprised by combat starting, that combatant has Disadvantage on their Initiative roll. For example, if an ambusher starts combat while hidden from a foe who is unaware that combat is starting, that foe is surprised.
Surprise. If you’re Invisible when you roll Initiative, you have Advantage on the roll.
Rolling Initiative. In any situation where a character’s actions initiate combat, you can give the acting character Advantage on their Initiative roll.
Advantage and Disadvantage. If a creature has Advantage on Initiative rolls, increase its Initiative score by 5. If it has Disadvantage on those rolls, decrease that score by 5.
Initiative Scores for Characters. You can get to the action of combat more quickly by using Initiative scores instead of rolling. You might decide to use Initiative scores just for characters, just for monsters, or for both. A character’s Initiative score is typically 10 plus all modifiers to the character’s Initiative roll (including their Dexterity modifier and any special modifiers).
Ties. If a tie occurs, the DM decides the order among tied monsters, and the players decide the order among tied characters. The DM decides the order if the tie is between a monster and a player character.
I'm prepping for an upcoming session where the party is likely to encounter an enemy hiding near the entrance to their fortress. The enemy has a once per day Invisibility bonus action (Orc Garroter from Flee, Mortals), and should the party fail to spot him in hiding,
As a side note, the characters can't find the Orc Garroter using Cloak to magically turn Invisible for 1 minute since it didn't use the Hide action.
I'm prepping for an upcoming session where the party is likely to encounter an enemy hiding near the entrance to their fortress. The enemy has a once per day Invisibility bonus action (Orc Garroter from Flee, Mortals), and should the party fail to spot him in hiding,
As a side note, the characters can't find the Orc Garroter using Cloak to magically turn Invisible for 1 minute since it didn't use the Hide action.
I thought about ruling this way, but figured that the Orc would be hiding and only use Cloak before attempting to get close and attack, still giving them the opportunity to spot him prior. It's only a party of 2 players, so I'm trying not to be too punishing haha
I thought about ruling this way, but figured that the Orc would be hiding and only use Cloak before attempting to get close and attack, still giving them the opportunity to spot him prior. It's only a party of 2 players, so I'm trying not to be too punishing haha
Ha i see. The good thing is Cloak effect doesn't end if the Orc miss with an attack, so if the Orc doesn't hit a creature or takes damage, it will remain invisible for 1 minute.
Personally I have people roll 5 sets of initiative before every session, they are used in ambushes. Some days its never used, other days it is. Sorry I am not letting people fireball the room for no reason or whatever just because they rolled high on initiative but don't spot anything, they are just searching the room for clues or whatever they were doing before the ambush is spring. When the invisible orc attacks whoever is next in initiative goes.
I don't have the module you are referring to, so if it's Invisibility is a spell, it loses the benefit as soon as it attacks. It doesn't get advantage.
You automatically Surprise anyone who can't see you. Under 2024 rules, all they suffer is disadvantage on their initiative rolls. He rolls first and then they roll with disadvantage.
It's possible one of the players might still win initiative.
I don't have the module you are referring to, so if it's Invisibility is a spell, it loses the benefit as soon as it attacks. It doesn't get advantage.
You automatically Surprise anyone who can't see you. Under 2024 rules, all they suffer is disadvantage on their initiative rolls. He rolls first and then they roll with disadvantage.
It's possible one of the players might still win initiative.
Yeah the question always is though, lets say bob wins initiative, but he does not spot orc assassin. Bob has no idea anything is even fishy, what does bob do on their initiative why are you even asking them hey bob its your turn what are you doing.
There is one thing that I think is unclear in 24. It used to be (in 14 iirc) at the start of combat, you didn’t get a reaction until your first turn. So there was real value in going before the attacker, even if you didn’t really have anything to do with your action/BA, as you’d at least have a reaction to use during the attack.
Now, I’m not as sure if that’s the case, or if everyone gets a reaction right when initiative is rolled.
There is one thing that I think is unclear in 24. It used to be (in 14 iirc) at the start of combat, you didn’t get a reaction until your first turn. So there was real value in going before the attacker, even if you didn’t really have anything to do with your action/BA, as you’d at least have a reaction to use during the attack.
Now, I’m not as sure if that’s the case, or if everyone gets a reaction right when initiative is rolled.
Yeah, under the 2024, the Reaction is available. It's a change between editions.
[...] you have a better chance of acting first or at least sooner in any battle that you're participating in, but it has this an especially nice interaction with how surprise now works, because the surprise rules in the new players handbook have been changed. Rather than there there being a potential for certain combatants to simply be unable to act during the first round of a fight, a possibility that frankly ended up really unbalancing the game in certain circumstances, because the old surprise rules could very easily trivialize an entire encounter [...] so in the new rules being surprised simply means you have disadvantage on your initiative role, meaning you're you are likely to go after the people who surprised you although it's not guaranteed [...]
You've found the correct rules. I would say, make a Stealth check with Advantage for the Orc and compare it to the party's passive perception, and then roll initiative.
If no PC's passive perception beats the Orc's stealth check (and the Orc rolls a 15 or higher, according to the new Stealth rules). I would rule that players who have Initiative roll above the ambusher can only proceed as if they are unaware of the presence of a creature. The characters are unaware that initiative has been rolled, therefore can't take actions which would try and reveal the ambusher, that is out-of-game knowledge. The Orc would still be invisible because there has been no attack roll.
If a PC's passive perception beats the Orc's stealth check, OR the Orc rolls a 14 or lower, then the PC's can get a sense or instinct that something isn't quite right, but not a sense of where. In this case, they could take actions to try and detect the Orc ahead of time. Perhaps only allow this if the PC who beats the check calls out to the party that something isn't right.
Not technically true, the DC 15 Stealth check is to hide, which makes you... invisible. But you're already invisible, so that does nothing. There's no point in the Orc hiding, and thus no need to make a DC15.
The orc needs to move silently, which has no fixed DC, it's simply compared to the party passive perception. If he beats their passive perception, they're unaware, even if he rolls 14 or less.
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BTW, the 5e stealth rules are really unsatisfying, and this situation is a reason why. I'd give the Orc a 3.x surprise round (one action or move or bonus action - so his attack), and then roll initiative after the attack. Combat doesn't start until after the orc makes the attack, so initiative shouldn't be rolled until after the orc makes the attack.
In that proposed scenario, this would be my ruling:
- You said the Garroter uses its Bonus Action to turn Invisible, and then take the Hide action. In this case, it must succeed on a DC 15 Dexterity (Stealth) check and note the total result.
Now, two options:
A) If the Passive Perception for a PC is not enough to succeed against the DC for the creature to be found, then the creature is unseen and unheard for that PC. I'd then apply the next rule:
--- Surprise. If a combatant is surprised by combat starting, that combatant has Disadvantage on their Initiative roll. For example, if an ambusher starts combat while hidden from a foe who is unaware that combat is starting, that foe is surprised.
B) If the Passive Perception for a PC succeeds against the Garroter's DC, then the creature is found, so the previous rule doesn't apply for that PC.
But in both cases, since the Garroter has the Invisible condition thanks to Cloak, this applies:
---Surprise. If you’re Invisible when you roll Initiative, you have Advantage on the roll.
I'm prepping for an upcoming session where the party is likely to encounter an enemy hiding near the entrance to their fortress. The enemy has a once per day Invisibility bonus action (Orc Garroter from Flee, Mortals), and should the party fail to spot him in hiding, he will attempt to use this ability to land a surprise attack on one of the players. All of this should hopefully sound pretty straightforward. What I can't seem to pin down is how 5.5e wants me to go about making this initial attack while under the Invisible condition.
I have read all sorts of explanations on the updated Surprise conditions and all of that, but what is tripping me up is when Initiative rolls should actually take place in a situation like this. For instance, the Invisibility condition ends when the Orc makes an attack roll, however, if he wants to ambush and surprise the party, then Initiative is rolled with Advantage and the players with Disadvantage. It's unclear to me if this is intended to take place before any attack is actually made against the players. If so, then there's a chance that one of the players may still be able to act first in the order. And if that were to happen, the Orc would still be Invisible as they have not made an attack roll. Is that really how this is meant to play out? Am I making this way to confusing for myself? I want to be fair to the players, and even if this hypothetical isn't all that likely, the rules do not seem to make sense of how initiating combat whilst Invisible is meant to go.
That is all, basically, true and correct. Initiative is rolled to see if other people get to act first, though that's somewhat unlikely with all the advantage/disadvantage effects. The PCs may just be "fast enough" to act first, anyway. For the attack itself, invisibility just gives advantage, making it more likely to hit, not a guaranteed "free hit."
You've found the correct rules. I would say, make a Stealth check with Advantage for the Orc and compare it to the party's passive perception, and then roll initiative.
If no PC's passive perception beats the Orc's stealth check (and the Orc rolls a 15 or higher, according to the new Stealth rules). I would rule that players who have Initiative roll above the ambusher can only proceed as if they are unaware of the presence of a creature. The characters are unaware that initiative has been rolled, therefore can't take actions which would try and reveal the ambusher, that is out-of-game knowledge. The Orc would still be invisible because there has been no attack roll.
If a PC's passive perception beats the Orc's stealth check, OR the Orc rolls a 14 or lower, then the PC's can get a sense or instinct that something isn't quite right, but not a sense of where. In this case, they could take actions to try and detect the Orc ahead of time. Perhaps only allow this if the PC who beats the check calls out to the party that something isn't right.
Being new as well, my understanding could be wrong.
You use the PCs passive perception to see the Orc as they leave. Not sure what the DC of the invisible orc is. Maybe a stealth roll plus ???
If the PCs do not detect the Orc, then the orc rolls for hits, does damage. Now everyone rolls initiative.
Proceed as normal.
It seems odd to me that there's still a possible situation where a player rolls a higher initiative (despite being Surprised) but is still entirely unaware of what triggered Initiative to begin with nor why they are Surprised. I'm sure I could describe something passable in the moment, but I wish this made more sense to me narratively in the RAW.
Why would you not do a passive perception roll 1st like I mentioned above?
I agree that a passive perception check should be made to detect the Orc from the beginning, but what I am sort of getting at here is that the updated 5.5e rules do not seem to suggest the Orc should get to make an attack roll against the players outside of Initiative. It seems more in line with what Stabbey has stated, albeit that has significantly more overhead for what should otherwise be an intense moment.
All that said, I'm more inclined to rule that the Orc does get to make his attack before Initiative is rolled and could even count that as his action for that initial round, regardless of how the order shakes out.
Though turn-based combat hides this very well, everything in a round is supposed to be happening ~simultaneously. Narratively, a sword or whatever is swishing out of nowhere to hit someone; maaaaybe their reaction time is good enough that they get to do "stuff" before taking the hit, even though (again, narratively) they are taking the hit right away.
At least, since the attacker is invisible, at worst someone else might get to attack them at disadvantage if they "go first."
Obviously, everything comes out weird if enough of the PCs still go first and are able to take the invisible attacker out before the attack actually resolves. But that's pretty unlikely, and the DM may rule that the initial attack still gets to happen, or whatever. Technically, the DM is the only factor that determines when initiative is rolled; maybe they decide the attack just happens for free, first.
Initiative is intended to determine turn order and should take place before any attack. If a character act before the Orc, it would incidentally know there's an imminent threat since it's been surprised by combat starting. 5E24 surprise and Initiative rules between the Player's Handbook and Dungeon Master Guide offers me enought guidelines to come up with various options;
A simple way for DM to ensure a invisible creature acts before surprised one is to use Initiative Score instead of rolling;
Ambusher: 15 + DEX mod
Surprised: 05 + DEX mod
As a side note, the characters can't find the Orc Garroter using Cloak to magically turn Invisible for 1 minute since it didn't use the Hide action.
I thought about ruling this way, but figured that the Orc would be hiding and only use Cloak before attempting to get close and attack, still giving them the opportunity to spot him prior. It's only a party of 2 players, so I'm trying not to be too punishing haha
Ha i see. The good thing is Cloak effect doesn't end if the Orc miss with an attack, so if the Orc doesn't hit a creature or takes damage, it will remain invisible for 1 minute.
Personally I have people roll 5 sets of initiative before every session, they are used in ambushes. Some days its never used, other days it is. Sorry I am not letting people fireball the room for no reason or whatever just because they rolled high on initiative but don't spot anything, they are just searching the room for clues or whatever they were doing before the ambush is spring. When the invisible orc attacks whoever is next in initiative goes.
I don't have the module you are referring to, so if it's Invisibility is a spell, it loses the benefit as soon as it attacks. It doesn't get advantage.
You automatically Surprise anyone who can't see you. Under 2024 rules, all they suffer is disadvantage on their initiative rolls. He rolls first and then they roll with disadvantage.
It's possible one of the players might still win initiative.
Yeah the question always is though, lets say bob wins initiative, but he does not spot orc assassin. Bob has no idea anything is even fishy, what does bob do on their initiative why are you even asking them hey bob its your turn what are you doing.
There is one thing that I think is unclear in 24. It used to be (in 14 iirc) at the start of combat, you didn’t get a reaction until your first turn. So there was real value in going before the attacker, even if you didn’t really have anything to do with your action/BA, as you’d at least have a reaction to use during the attack.
Now, I’m not as sure if that’s the case, or if everyone gets a reaction right when initiative is rolled.
Yeah, under the 2024, the Reaction is available. It's a change between editions.
This is from the video New Fighter | 2024 Player's Handbook (around 22:10):
Not technically true, the DC 15 Stealth check is to hide, which makes you... invisible. But you're already invisible, so that does nothing. There's no point in the Orc hiding, and thus no need to make a DC15.
The orc needs to move silently, which has no fixed DC, it's simply compared to the party passive perception. If he beats their passive perception, they're unaware, even if he rolls 14 or less.
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BTW, the 5e stealth rules are really unsatisfying, and this situation is a reason why. I'd give the Orc a 3.x surprise round (one action or move or bonus action - so his attack), and then roll initiative after the attack. Combat doesn't start until after the orc makes the attack, so initiative shouldn't be rolled until after the orc makes the attack.
Easy fix: Start initiative at wherever the orc rolls. That represents the party being unaware until the moment the orc strikes.
In that proposed scenario, this would be my ruling:
- You said the Garroter uses its Bonus Action to turn Invisible, and then take the Hide action. In this case, it must succeed on a DC 15 Dexterity (Stealth) check and note the total result.
Now, two options:
A) If the Passive Perception for a PC is not enough to succeed against the DC for the creature to be found, then the creature is unseen and unheard for that PC. I'd then apply the next rule:
--- Surprise. If a combatant is surprised by combat starting, that combatant has Disadvantage on their Initiative roll. For example, if an ambusher starts combat while hidden from a foe who is unaware that combat is starting, that foe is surprised.
B) If the Passive Perception for a PC succeeds against the Garroter's DC, then the creature is found, so the previous rule doesn't apply for that PC.
But in both cases, since the Garroter has the Invisible condition thanks to Cloak, this applies:
--- Surprise. If you’re Invisible when you roll Initiative, you have Advantage on the roll.
-----
Some threads that might be helpful for your ruling, SquintsTheNearsighted: