If a vampire is reduced to 0 health in Moonbeam, does it die?
Case for:
Vampires are shapechangers, so Moonbeam's extra rules apply
Wording of Misty Escape: "When it drops to 0 hit points outside its resting place, the vampire transforms into a cloud of mist (as in the Shapechanger trait) instead of falling unconscious, provided that it isn't in sunlight or running water. If it can't transform, it is destroyed."
Wording of Moonbeam: "A shapechanger makes its saving throw with disadvantage. If it fails, it also instantly reverts to its original form and can't assume a different form until it leaves the spell's light."
Case against:
Wording of Misty Escape: "When it drops to 0 hit points outside its resting place, the vampire transforms into a cloud of mist (as in the Shapechanger trait) instead of falling unconscious, provided that it isn't in sunlight or running water. If it can't transform, it is destroyed."
I would say yes, it dies. I agree on all the favorable cases you mentioned.
For the case against, I dont agree because the wording does not say that only in those two cases (sunlight and running water) the vampire can't trasform in a mist.
Moreover, when a vampire uses Misty Escape, it is already in a situation with no sunlight nor running water (otherwise it can't use it). So, the vampire using Misty escape is not in its true form.
Then, Moonbeam forces the target to revert the shapechange (if it fails the save), going even below 0 hit points and can’t assume a different form until it leaves the spell’s light. The Misty Escape then says: "If it can't trasform, it dies".
If a trait includes failure conditions, it doesn't mean they are the only failure conditions (unless explicitly stated so).
Besides, the interaction between a Vampire and Moonbeam seems to be even cleaner than that:
The Moonbeam hits the Vampire. If the vampire fails the save (with disadvantage, because his type includes "shapechanger"), "can’t assume a different form until it leaves the spell’s light". If the damage reduces it to 0 hp, its Misty Escape attempts to trigger, but it cannot transform, so "If it can't transform, it is destroyed."
The way I read it, Moonbeam prevents shapechangers from changing shape even if it hits them when they are in their natural form. Its effects on a failed save are [revert] + [can't change], not [revert] and if they do, [can't change].
I believed it to be the case, but I'm possibly going to have to argue the case RAW with someone who might present the opposite argument, so I wanted to offer both sides.
Top stuff.
Follow-up question, because I was pretty sure I understood Moonbeam, but reading about it online has convinced me I don't:
When a PC casts Moonbeam on the area in which a creature is standing, does the creature immediately take damage and then take damage again when its turn begins, or does it only take it on its turn?
I would have thought it only took damage on its turn, otherwise you get free double hits on most enemies, but other places imply the other way.
In addition, the vampire legendary action Move would mean that it could in theory never get hit by Moonbeam, because it could keep moving out of it as a reaction as soon as Moonbeam lands on it, as long as it hadn't used up its legendary actions first.
I believe you are actually correct on both counts.
When you cast Moonbeam, you position it at a point in range, and it fills its area. Full stop. When a monster starts its turn in it (usually the one you put the beam on) or moves into it during its turn (for the first time), is subject to its effects.
And yes, a Vampire's Legendary move action can help it evade the Moonbeam. Unless it has used its Legendary actions for the round, or is restrained (perhaps grappled?), stunned, paralyzed, and so on. A Vampire is in fact a trickier encounter than one you can defeat with a 2nd level spell and a fighter going full attack on it.
We discussed this previously in another thread. With certainty if moonbeam is cast prior to the vampire dropping to zero hit points, should the vampire drop to zero hit points, in the zone of the moonbeam and fail their save, they could not turn into mist and therefore would die. A highly intelligent vampire would therefore attack the Druid first with extreme prejudice and always keep a final legendary resistance around just in case.
What happens if moonbeam is cast after the vampire turns to mist is the more complex situation.
We discussed this previously in another thread. With certainty if moonbeam is cast prior to the vampire dropping to zero hit points, should the vampire drop to zero hit points, in the zone of the moonbeam and fail their save, they could not turn into mist and therefore would die. A highly intelligent vampire would therefore attack the Druid first with extreme prejudice and always keep a final legendary resistance around just in case.
It should work even if the vampire is already in mist form.
Of course true form or mist form, the vampire has proficiency in CON saving throw, if it is in mist form has advantage on that save, and it has legendary resistance. It is still a matter of considerable luck to kill the vampire with moonbeam.
We discussed this previously in another thread. With certainty if moonbeam is cast prior to the vampire dropping to zero hit points, should the vampire drop to zero hit points, in the zone of the moonbeam and fail their save, they could not turn into mist and therefore would die. A highly intelligent vampire would therefore attack the Druid first with extreme prejudice and always keep a final legendary resistance around just in case.
It should work even if the vampire is already in mist form.
Of course true form or mist form, the vampire has proficiency in CON saving throw, if it is in mist form has advantage on that save, and it has legendary resistance. It is still a matter of considerable luck to kill the vampire with moonbeam.
Moonbeam says the saving throw is at disadvantage, so its advantage would cancel out.
From what I can see, the issue is whether or not the Vampire has the physical ability to revert back to human form even if forced to do so from moonbeam. My initial reading of the ability would indicate it cannot as it lacks the ability to do so.
We discussed this previously in another thread. With certainty if moonbeam is cast prior to the vampire dropping to zero hit points, should the vampire drop to zero hit points, in the zone of the moonbeam and fail their save, they could not turn into mist and therefore would die. A highly intelligent vampire would therefore attack the Druid first with extreme prejudice and always keep a final legendary resistance around just in case.
It should work even if the vampire is already in mist form.
Of course true form or mist form, the vampire has proficiency in CON saving throw, if it is in mist form has advantage on that save, and it has legendary resistance. It is still a matter of considerable luck to kill the vampire with moonbeam.
Moonbeam says the saving throw is at disadvantage, so its advantage would cancel out.
From what I can see, the issue is whether or not the Vampire has the physical ability to revert back to human form even if forced to do so from moonbeam. My initial reading of the ability would indicate it cannot as it lacks the ability to do so.
Two contradictory things are certain:
"If it fails, it also instantly reverts to its original form" from Moonbeam; and
"While it has 0 hit points in mist form, it can't revert to its vampire form" from the vampire.
My best guess would be that it's forced to turn back, immediately is considered to be hitting 0 health points for a second time, and then attempts to retransform with Misty Escape, only to be destroyed due to Moonbeam's influence. But I think it's a situation where a DM has to rule.
We discussed this previously in another thread. With certainty if moonbeam is cast prior to the vampire dropping to zero hit points, should the vampire drop to zero hit points, in the zone of the moonbeam and fail their save, they could not turn into mist and therefore would die. A highly intelligent vampire would therefore attack the Druid first with extreme prejudice and always keep a final legendary resistance around just in case.
It should work even if the vampire is already in mist form.
Of course true form or mist form, the vampire has proficiency in CON saving throw, if it is in mist form has advantage on that save, and it has legendary resistance. It is still a matter of considerable luck to kill the vampire with moonbeam.
Moonbeam says the saving throw is at disadvantage, so its advantage would cancel out.
From what I can see, the issue is whether or not the Vampire has the physical ability to revert back to human form even if forced to do so from moonbeam. My initial reading of the ability would indicate it cannot as it lacks the ability to do so.
Two contradictory things are certain:
"If it fails, it also instantly reverts to its original form" from Moonbeam; and
"While it has 0 hit points in mist form, it can't revert to its vampire form" from the vampire.
My best guess would be that it's forced to turn back, immediately is considered to be hitting 0 health points for a second time, and then attempts to retransform with Misty Escape, only to be destroyed due to Moonbeam's influence. But I think it's a situation where a DM has to rule.
Again, here I believe the wording is the key: While it has 0 hit points in mist form, it can't revert to its vampire form: It is not equivalent to: it can't be reverted.
The sentence "it can' revert to its vampire form" suggests that the vampire can't choose to revert, but it can't be reverted by someone else.
I am thinking that the Vampire's statement is an intention of what it can will itself to do, not what it can be forced to do.
It cannot revert to its physical form when its hp are 0, even if it wanted to (because it would mean destruction). It isn't given a choice when an effect forces it.
It's like how players cannot move when restrained. They cannot move themselves, but it doesn't prevent other effects (telekinesis, someone pushing them, etc) from moving them from their location.
So, yes. I believe Moonbeam after the Vampire has turned to mist would revert it (and promptly destroy it, because it cannot revert again).
We discussed this previously in another thread. With certainty if moonbeam is cast prior to the vampire dropping to zero hit points, should the vampire drop to zero hit points, in the zone of the moonbeam and fail their save, they could not turn into mist and therefore would die. A highly intelligent vampire would therefore attack the Druid first with extreme prejudice and always keep a final legendary resistance around just in case.
It should work even if the vampire is already in mist form.
Of course true form or mist form, the vampire has proficiency in CON saving throw, if it is in mist form has advantage on that save, and it has legendary resistance. It is still a matter of considerable luck to kill the vampire with moonbeam.
Moonbeam says the saving throw is at disadvantage, so its advantage would cancel out.
From what I can see, the issue is whether or not the Vampire has the physical ability to revert back to human form even if forced to do so from moonbeam. My initial reading of the ability would indicate it cannot as it lacks the ability to do so.
Two contradictory things are certain:
"If it fails, it also instantly reverts to its original form" from Moonbeam; and
"While it has 0 hit points in mist form, it can't revert to its vampire form" from the vampire.
My best guess would be that it's forced to turn back, immediately is considered to be hitting 0 health points for a second time, and then attempts to retransform with Misty Escape, only to be destroyed due to Moonbeam's influence. But I think it's a situation where a DM has to rule.
Again, here I believe the wording is the key: While it has 0 hit points in mist form, it can't revert to its vampire form: It is not equivalent to: it can't be reverted.
The sentence "it can' revert to its vampire form" suggests that the vampire can't choose to revert, but it can't be reverted by someone else.
The way I see it, the vampire is still the one doing the reverting. It is being forced to do the reverting, but its body is essentially doing it. It isn't as though moonbeam is magically shaping the vampire back into a human form. So by virtue of being unable to do so, it simply can't even if forced to. Essentially the vampire lacks the absolute ability to become a solid form.
I am thinking that the Vampire's statement is an intention of what it can will itself to do, not what it can be forced to do.
It cannot revert to its physical form when its hp are 0, even if it wanted to (because it would mean destruction). It isn't given a choice when an effect forces it.
It's like how players cannot move when restrained. They cannot move themselves, but it doesn't prevent other effects (telekinesis, someone pushing them, etc) from moving them from their location.
So, yes. I believe Moonbeam after the Vampire has turned to mist would revert it (and promptly destroy it, because it cannot revert again).
Your own example actually explains why the vampire can't. Lets take your example, a Player is restrained. They then hear a harpy's music and now must walk toward the harpy. The Harpy's ability of saying the Player must walk toward the harpy does not in fact override the restrained condition that states the player cannot physically move. Even if the Harpy's Song says you must move, you cannot move by being restrained. I would also argue that depending on how you are restrained, pushing may not work to cause you to move. Telekinesis doesn't cause you to move per se, but moves you. Once again though, how you are restrained determining whether or not you can be moved by telekinesis.
I can see where you're going with this - "state based effects", to quote Magic, and their priority. I can see both (and thus DM is final judge, as usual).
However, that very example with the Harpy can also be turned on its head: The movement demanded by the Harpy being the "mist" and the restrain being the "moonbeam".
In effect, I personally disagree with "the vampire is still the one doing the reverting". I can see how it could be the case, but I don't see it that way. In my head, it's more like magic forces a change to the creature's standard behavior/state/rules. Perhaps that's an application of specific versus generic? I am uncertain, but I suppose it could be.
D&D works on the assumption that specific trumps general. In this case of vampire vs. moonbeam, the general case is that nothing but the vampire is changing the vampire's shape.
The specific case, and it is the more specific case because a vampire has a shapeshifting trait regardless of what opponents it faces and not all opponents have a moonbeam spell or similar effect, is that the spell is being cast.
I can see where you're going with this - "state based effects", to quote Magic, and their priority. I can see both (and thus DM is final judge, as usual).
However, that very example with the Harpy can also be turned on its head: The movement demanded by the Harpy being the "mist" and the restrain being the "moonbeam".
In effect, I personally disagree with "the vampire is still the one doing the reverting". I can see how it could be the case, but I don't see it that way. In my head, it's more like magic forces a change to the creature's standard behavior/state/rules. Perhaps that's an application of specific versus generic? I am uncertain, but I suppose it could be.
I mean I don't see it necessarily as specific versus generic. I'll try to explain myself.
When a non-vampire reaches zero hit points they don't consciously become unconscious. If such an ability says they become conscious again, lets assume there is an unwaken spell that makes an unconscious creature conscious again, I would say it would automatically fail because it is impossible to become conscious again while having zero hit points. Likewise I don't see the vampire consciously becoming mist at zero hit points. Basically as non-vampires can't be made conscious with zero hit points, a vampire can't be made physical with zero hit points.
So even if moonbeam forces a vampire to change, the vampire is still the one doing the changing which its ability specifically states it cannot do.
I also feel like less complications arise in the game if you just say the vampire can't reform into a physical shape until it reaches its resting place. For example, watching the druid pc cast moonbeam, a cleric ready's their action to heal the vampire as soon as the vampire returns to physical form.
Granted a vampire does become a physical being with zero hit points once reaching its resting place. Which could be considered a flaw in my reasoning.
We discussed this previously in another thread. With certainty if moonbeam is cast prior to the vampire dropping to zero hit points, should the vampire drop to zero hit points, in the zone of the moonbeam and fail their save, they could not turn into mist and therefore would die. A highly intelligent vampire would therefore attack the Druid first with extreme prejudice and always keep a final legendary resistance around just in case.
It should work even if the vampire is already in mist form.
Of course true form or mist form, the vampire has proficiency in CON saving throw, if it is in mist form has advantage on that save, and it has legendary resistance. It is still a matter of considerable luck to kill the vampire with moonbeam.
However, because it is a shapechanger, it has disadvantage against Moonbeam (per the spell). Meaning it makes the saving throw regularly (not with advantage)
“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
Your own example actually explains why the vampire can't. Lets take your example, a Player is restrained. They then hear a harpy's music and now must walk toward the harpy. The Harpy's ability of saying the Player must walk toward the harpy does not in fact override the restrained condition that states the player cannot physically move. Even if the Harpy's Song says you must move, you cannot move by being restrained. I would also argue that depending on how you are restrained, pushing may not work to cause you to move. Telekinesis doesn't cause you to move per se, but moves you. Once again though, how you are restrained determining whether or not you can be moved by telekinesis.
The difference between a Harpy and the Vampire is the wording. That situation can easily be explained: the target must move, but the restrained condition states that the target's movement becomes 0. So, the target IS still moving its speed, but its speed is 0. So, it is technically still adhering to the Luring Song while at the same time not moving. As a DM, I'd say that the target should try any and all means to escape from the restrained condition in an attempt to move closer to the harpy, BUT if that isn't possible, the condition of the effect is still being fulfilled.
The vampire's feature; however, says that IT cannot revert. That would be like saying, a normal human can not turn into a Tyrannosaurus Rex. That statement is obviously true 99% of the time, but when you cast Polymorph that general rule is beaten by the specific rule of the spell. Much in the same regards a vampire can not choose to revert to its natural form while in mist form at 0 hit points, but Moonbeam beats that generic rule.
“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
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If a vampire is reduced to 0 health in Moonbeam, does it die?
Case for:
Case against:
I would say yes, it dies. I agree on all the favorable cases you mentioned.
For the case against, I dont agree because the wording does not say that only in those two cases (sunlight and running water) the vampire can't trasform in a mist.
Moreover, when a vampire uses Misty Escape, it is already in a situation with no sunlight nor running water (otherwise it can't use it). So, the vampire using Misty escape is not in its true form.
Then, Moonbeam forces the target to revert the shapechange (if it fails the save), going even below 0 hit points and can’t assume a different form until it leaves the spell’s light. The Misty Escape then says: "If it can't trasform, it dies".
I'm with filcat.
If a trait includes failure conditions, it doesn't mean they are the only failure conditions (unless explicitly stated so).
Besides, the interaction between a Vampire and Moonbeam seems to be even cleaner than that:
The Moonbeam hits the Vampire. If the vampire fails the save (with disadvantage, because his type includes "shapechanger"), "can’t assume a different form until it leaves the spell’s light". If the damage reduces it to 0 hp, its Misty Escape attempts to trigger, but it cannot transform, so "If it can't transform, it is destroyed."
The way I read it, Moonbeam prevents shapechangers from changing shape even if it hits them when they are in their natural form. Its effects on a failed save are [revert] + [can't change], not [revert] and if they do, [can't change].
Perfect on both.
I believed it to be the case, but I'm possibly going to have to argue the case RAW with someone who might present the opposite argument, so I wanted to offer both sides.
Top stuff.
Follow-up question, because I was pretty sure I understood Moonbeam, but reading about it online has convinced me I don't:
When a PC casts Moonbeam on the area in which a creature is standing, does the creature immediately take damage and then take damage again when its turn begins, or does it only take it on its turn?
I would have thought it only took damage on its turn, otherwise you get free double hits on most enemies, but other places imply the other way.
In addition, the vampire legendary action Move would mean that it could in theory never get hit by Moonbeam, because it could keep moving out of it as a reaction as soon as Moonbeam lands on it, as long as it hadn't used up its legendary actions first.
I believe you are actually correct on both counts.
When you cast Moonbeam, you position it at a point in range, and it fills its area. Full stop. When a monster starts its turn in it (usually the one you put the beam on) or moves into it during its turn (for the first time), is subject to its effects.
And yes, a Vampire's Legendary move action can help it evade the Moonbeam. Unless it has used its Legendary actions for the round, or is restrained (perhaps grappled?), stunned, paralyzed, and so on. A Vampire is in fact a trickier encounter than one you can defeat with a 2nd level spell and a fighter going full attack on it.
We discussed this previously in another thread. With certainty if moonbeam is cast prior to the vampire dropping to zero hit points, should the vampire drop to zero hit points, in the zone of the moonbeam and fail their save, they could not turn into mist and therefore would die. A highly intelligent vampire would therefore attack the Druid first with extreme prejudice and always keep a final legendary resistance around just in case.
What happens if moonbeam is cast after the vampire turns to mist is the more complex situation.
And if the Vamp has already used up all its Legendary Resistances.
K ray
Of course filcat already pointed that out, so nevermind.
My best guess would be that it's forced to turn back, immediately is considered to be hitting 0 health points for a second time, and then attempts to retransform with Misty Escape, only to be destroyed due to Moonbeam's influence. But I think it's a situation where a DM has to rule.
I am thinking that the Vampire's statement is an intention of what it can will itself to do, not what it can be forced to do.
It cannot revert to its physical form when its hp are 0, even if it wanted to (because it would mean destruction). It isn't given a choice when an effect forces it.
It's like how players cannot move when restrained. They cannot move themselves, but it doesn't prevent other effects (telekinesis, someone pushing them, etc) from moving them from their location.
So, yes. I believe Moonbeam after the Vampire has turned to mist would revert it (and promptly destroy it, because it cannot revert again).
I can see where you're going with this - "state based effects", to quote Magic, and their priority. I can see both (and thus DM is final judge, as usual).
However, that very example with the Harpy can also be turned on its head: The movement demanded by the Harpy being the "mist" and the restrain being the "moonbeam".
In effect, I personally disagree with "the vampire is still the one doing the reverting". I can see how it could be the case, but I don't see it that way. In my head, it's more like magic forces a change to the creature's standard behavior/state/rules. Perhaps that's an application of specific versus generic? I am uncertain, but I suppose it could be.
D&D works on the assumption that specific trumps general. In this case of vampire vs. moonbeam, the general case is that nothing but the vampire is changing the vampire's shape.
The specific case, and it is the more specific case because a vampire has a shapeshifting trait regardless of what opponents it faces and not all opponents have a moonbeam spell or similar effect, is that the spell is being cast.
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“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
The difference between a Harpy and the Vampire is the wording. That situation can easily be explained: the target must move, but the restrained condition states that the target's movement becomes 0. So, the target IS still moving its speed, but its speed is 0. So, it is technically still adhering to the Luring Song while at the same time not moving. As a DM, I'd say that the target should try any and all means to escape from the restrained condition in an attempt to move closer to the harpy, BUT if that isn't possible, the condition of the effect is still being fulfilled.
The vampire's feature; however, says that IT cannot revert. That would be like saying, a normal human can not turn into a Tyrannosaurus Rex. That statement is obviously true 99% of the time, but when you cast Polymorph that general rule is beaten by the specific rule of the spell. Much in the same regards a vampire can not choose to revert to its natural form while in mist form at 0 hit points, but Moonbeam beats that generic rule.
Click Here to Download my Lancer Class w/ Dragoon and Legionnaire Archetypes via DM's Guild - Pay What You Want
Click Here to Download the Mind Flayer: Thoon Hulk converted from 4e via DM's Guild
“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.