I saw recent Reddit posts discussing genasi racial features and how they play into wild shape (specifically water and air with amphibious and unending breath). The question was "When you wild shape into your beast do you retain these features if so which ones?"
The general answer was for water genasi that you would retain your swim speed, but not anything else. The air genasi can use unending breath (while conscience). However, upon further inspection I found this explanation for Wild Shape in the manual
- You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so. However, you can’t use any of your special senses, such as darkvision, unless your new form also has that sense.
Based upon this, I than looked up many of the special senses which are listed below.
I believe that if the air genasi can retain unending breathe (because they have lungs?) you should be able to breath underwater (and retain acid resistance) with any beast form you take. It is not a special sense but a racial features benefit. It can definitely add flavor, but makes the genasi choice much more practical. It wouldn't make sense that an air genasi would not need to make a consideration for going under water while a water genasi would now have to. I believe that the contingency on the new form being physically capable to do the feat is rather vague and can be extremely limiting. For example, pass without a trace for earth genasi. Can any beast use this simply because they've have feet/the capacity to move on land? Air genasi unending breath. Can any beast not need to breath because they have lungs to store oxygen? Fire genasi fire resistance. Doesn't any beast gain this resistance simply because they have a form of skin this feat transfers into? There is a form of magical properties that is needed for all of these to be appropriate. No animal is physically able to hold there breath forever, able to move without ANY trace (foot prints or scent), and very few skins have any level of resistance to the affects of fire. Hence the magic from the race is at play. Either they should all retain the features (except special senses) or none at all in my opinion.
The rule is crystal clear when read in isolation: do you have a benefit that's provided by your class, race, or literally any other source … Keep it.
You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so. However, you can’t use any of your special senses, such as darkvision, unless your new form also has that sense.
The rule provides only two exceptions to this:
First, no using features that make no sense with your new anatomy. So, no flying if you don't have wings, no clawing if you don't have arms... but as long as you have skin, lungs, eyes, a body of some sort... in general you're free to keep most benefits you can think of.
Second, senses are specifically exempted from this. If you normally have darkvision or blindsight or something, but the Beast doesn't, then you in the Beast Form doesn't. This is a pretty big departure from the spirit of the rest of the rule, but there it is explicitly spelled out, so no escaping it.
However, do yourself a favor and do not google any of Crawford's "clarifications" of this rule!!!!! His tweets directly contradict the text of the rule, and try to create a fuzzy concept that relies on whether a feature "affects" a replaced stat that is in practice impossible to arbitrate. He has ruled that beast forms keep the humanoid's Sunlight Sensitivity (despite this not being a "benefit"). He has ruled that there is a magical distinction between racial features and other features, to justify applying an elf's Fleet of Foot to a beast form but not Toughness.
It really is so much simpler when you ignore the extra noise and just go by what the rulebook says. Keep your swim speed if you have a way of moving. Keep your breathing feature if you still breathe. Don't keep low-light vision, dark vision, scent, tremorsense, blindsense, etc. unless the new form has it as well, in which case you would use the better version between the two forms. Keep any other magical or quasi-magical abilities, like pass without a trace (although you can't cast spells while in Beast form, barring some high level druid abilities). Keep your resistances. Keep your feats. Keep your ASI. Keep everything.
i doubt any of you would respond to this but would a changeling be able to change shape while wildshaped? for example if i turned into a brown bear could i keep the stats of a brown bear but look like a different creature of the same size with the same basic limbs?
i doubt any of you would respond to this but would a changeling be able to change shape while wildshaped? for example if i turned into a brown bear could i keep the stats of a brown bear but look like a different creature of the same size with the same basic limbs?
I think they would! But they'd need to have seen the other type of creature in order to shapechange into it, by RAW.
i doubt any of you would respond to this but would a changeling be able to change shape while wildshaped? for example if i turned into a brown bear could i keep the stats of a brown bear but look like a different creature of the same size with the same basic limbs?
In each case the rule remains that:
You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so. However, you can’t use any of your special senses, such as darkvision, unless your new form also has that sense.
IF your DM rules that a changelings ability to change shape doesn't derive from the changlings' non-neural physiology or if you find a rules content on changlings to this effect then sure.
I wouldn't rule that a water genasi could breathe underwater once wildshaped into a dire wolf.
Yeah super DM dependent. Wildshape is such a subjective ability. Some DMs will absolutely say no. And they'd be justified. Some will say go for it. They'd also be justified.
Who know? Best to talk with your DM when you make your druid how they feel about racial traits and which stick around and which don't. I know I'm super liberal and if we can come up with any imaginable way for the trait to stick around it does. Tortle druid? Your wildshaped bear has a shell. Have fun with your 17 AC bear IDC. Put an ASI into +2 Strength? All your shapes are stronger than weaker druids who don't lift bro. Why not. Have fun.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
The Changeling question is pretty interesting. I went back and reread the Changeling's Shapechanger ability, just to make sure that it doesn't say "Humanoid" in its description... but it simply says "Race".
It depends on DM interpretation, but for me, if I was the DM, I'd still limit shape changing while wild-shaped to creatures that would be considered the same "race" as the creature you're wild-shaped into. So as a Brown Bear you can then shape change to be any other ursine creature but you can't turn into, say... a cow, despite the two of them being a similar size and shape.
The Changeling question is pretty interesting. I went back and reread the Changeling's Shapechanger ability, just to make sure that it doesn't say "Humanoid" in its description... but it simply says "Race".
It depends on DM interpretation, but for me, if I was the DM, I'd still limit shape changing while wild-shaped to creatures that would be considered the same "race" as the creature you're wild-shaped into. So as a Brown Bear you can then shape change to be any other ursine creature but you can't turn into, say... a cow, despite the two of them being a similar size and shape.
Yeah, like a panda bear. Or they wildshape into a rat and then shapechange into a different Tiny rodent. Or be a weasel that looks like a skunk or badger. (I suppose that's getting into beasts of the same Family or Order.)
The Changeling question is pretty interesting. I went back and reread the Changeling's Shapechanger ability, just to make sure that it doesn't say "Humanoid" in its description... but it simply says "Race".
It depends on DM interpretation, but for me, if I was the DM, I'd still limit shape changing while wild-shaped to creatures that would be considered the same "race" as the creature you're wild-shaped into. So as a Brown Bear you can then shape change to be any other ursine creature but you can't turn into, say... a cow, despite the two of them being a similar size and shape.
well my 2 big ideas about this would be wildshaping into an ape and then shapechanging to a human so you are just stronger and can walk around like that without raising any suspicion about an ape walking around with some people or wildshaping into something like a bear then shapechanging into something that has the same basic arrangement of limbs, that is weaker then a bear so you just look like something weaker then all of a sudden you punch someone and they take like twice as much damage as they would have expected. also the only real restrictions set on changlings shapechanger ability is that whatever you change into has to be the same size and have the same basic arrangement of limbs which depending on the dm both of those are very flexible.
If you keep the breathing feature of an air genasi because the animal still breaths, do you keep the dragonborn breath attack if the animal can still breath? Do you keep the lizardfolk "hungry jaws" feature if the animal has jaws, or the minotaur "goring rush" and "hammering horns" feature if the animal has horns? The thri-kreen has "chameleon carapace". Can every insect it turns into use it. Is it a "thri-kreen carapace", an "insect carapace" or just a "carapace" that is required. Because technically a turtle's shell is a carapace.
My first thought is you keep anything purely attributed to your mind, including skills. But the description does directly refute that, only to make it more confusing.
If you keep the breathing feature of an air genasi because the animal still breaths, do you keep the dragonborn breath attack if the animal can still breath? Do you keep the lizardfolk "hungry jaws" feature if the animal has jaws, or the minotaur "goring rush" and "hammering horns" feature if the animal has horns? The thri-kreen has "chameleon carapace". Can every insect it turns into use it. Is it a "thri-kreen carapace", an "insect carapace" or just a "carapace" that is required. Because technically a turtle's shell is a carapace.
My first thought is you keep anything purely attributed to your mind, including skills. But the description does directly refute that, only to make it more confusing.
IMHO an animal isn't physycally capable of making Breath Weapon so it should not be able do so.
If the animal has a Bite action, then Hungry Maw could potentially be usable.
An animal with horns would be physically capable of using Goring Rush and Hammering Horns with or following its own Horn action and perhaps even be able to use Minotaur's Horns statistics if similar enought is size, shape etc..
An animal shouldn' be physycally capable of using Chamaleon Carapace despite having a carapace of some sort.
Similar physical attributes may possibly allow some racial traits or features to be used depending on the exact nature of it. My interrogation would be wether it is unique to it or potentially replicable or not.
I agree, but I'd also like to comment on the Air Genasi... I feel that an air Genasi's ability to hold their breath indefinitely isn't a purely "physical" trait. It's not like they have super big lungs that can just hold a lot of air... they have some kind of metaphysical access to air outside of their body's physical form, so I would still let a Druid use that feature while wild shaped, regardless of what creature they turned into.
Yeah anything that can be clearly determined as magical I leave in for wildshape. If I had a protector aasimar circle of the moon druid use their racial ability to grow wings for 1 min of flying I would allow it, same with eladrin fey step, or magical resistance like fire genasi, tiefling, deep gnome etc.
> If you keep the breathing feature of an air genasi because the animal still breaths, do you keep the dragonborn breath attack if the animal can still breath? Do you keep the lizardfolk "hungry jaws" feature if the animal has jaws, or the minotaur "goring rush" and "hammering horns" feature if the animal has horns? The thri-kreen has "chameleon carapace". Can every insect it turns into use it. Is it a "thri-kreen carapace", an "insect carapace" or just a "carapace" that is required. Because technically a turtle's shell is a carapace.
i feel like you worded this in a way that was supposed to emphasize ridiculousness, but just pointed out all of the most reasonable examples possible
yes, the breath weapon works. Think of a wildshaped beast as altering the body of the original creature, rather than being a completely different body they inhabit. That’s why some of the racial features transfer over.
hungry jaws is basically a learned ability. It’s a quicker bite attack they learned how to do
same with the minotaur ones
most importantly, none of these features are broken or overly powerful. They’re just fun.
The way I read the RAI is that any racial features that don't appear in anatomy (e.g., Long-Limbed of the bugbear, etc.) are available during wild shape. And there are many races... and sooo many racial features. For example, it seems plausible that druids would retain all of the following sorts of racial features:
Ability score increases (all races, Lucky Footwork of harengon)
Advantages for saving throws (e.g., resistances to charms of many races)
Damage bonuses (e.g., Fury of the Small of the goblin, Surprise Attack of the bugbear)
Bonus actions (e.g., Nimble Escape of the goblin, draconic cry of the kobold, adrenaline rush of the half-orc)
Size category increases (e.g., Powerful Build of the bugbear & half-orc where you count one size larger when determining your carrying capacity and the weight you can push, drag, or lift)
HP abilities (e.g., Relentless Endurance - when you are reduced to 0 hit points but not killed outright, you can drop to 1 hit point instead)
Psionics (e.g., Psionic Mind ability that allows dragonborns to use telepathy)
Movement bonuses such as stealth (e.g., Sneaky of the bugbear) and flight (Gem Flight of Gem Dragonborn only) which is a bonus action where one "manifests spectral wings... you gain a flying speed equal to your walking speed and you can hover".
Initiative boosts (e.g., hare-trigger of the harengon)
There are a couple racial features of the dragonborn that are unclear: breath weapon because breathing seems so closely tied to anatomy.
There are several other races not mentioned here.
IMO this gets silly at a certain point. My druids have been human and half elf. I'm much more interested in story than optimizing, engaging in OP, etc.
I agree that all of the things you mentioned apply, but would take it a step further.
Breath Weapon carries over bc Crawford said it did, and that's my basis for a Lot of my takes on wildshape
Shifter's shift ability would carry over
Dhampir's Spiderclimb and (possibly) vampiric bite attack would carry over (i think of it as all of their shapes that have mouths are basically vampiric-looking animals)
All damage resistances would carry over
Elven teleports would carry over
Firbolg Hidden Step
hexblood Eerie Token
changeling shapechanger
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Hello everyone!
I saw recent Reddit posts discussing genasi racial features and how they play into wild shape (specifically water and air with amphibious and unending breath). The question was "When you wild shape into your beast do you retain these features if so which ones?"
https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/6pc4k5/do_druids_keep_resistances_from_their_race_when/
https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/51asa2/water_genasi_druid_loophole/
https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/71314/do-any-feats-carry-over-when-in-wild-shape
The general answer was for water genasi that you would retain your swim speed, but not anything else. The air genasi can use unending breath (while conscience). However, upon further inspection I found this explanation for Wild Shape in the manual
- You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so. However, you can’t use any of your special senses, such as darkvision, unless your new form also has that sense.
Based upon this, I than looked up many of the special senses which are listed below.
- Low-light, Darkvision, Scent, Tremorsense, Blindsense, Touchsight, Lifesight, Mindsight, Total Vision, blindsight.
I believe that if the air genasi can retain unending breathe (because they have lungs?) you should be able to breath underwater (and retain acid resistance) with any beast form you take. It is not a special sense but a racial features benefit. It can definitely add flavor, but makes the genasi choice much more practical. It wouldn't make sense that an air genasi would not need to make a consideration for going under water while a water genasi would now have to. I believe that the contingency on the new form being physically capable to do the feat is rather vague and can be extremely limiting. For example, pass without a trace for earth genasi. Can any beast use this simply because they've have feet/the capacity to move on land? Air genasi unending breath. Can any beast not need to breath because they have lungs to store oxygen? Fire genasi fire resistance. Doesn't any beast gain this resistance simply because they have a form of skin this feat transfers into? There is a form of magical properties that is needed for all of these to be appropriate. No animal is physically able to hold there breath forever, able to move without ANY trace (foot prints or scent), and very few skins have any level of resistance to the affects of fire. Hence the magic from the race is at play. Either they should all retain the features (except special senses) or none at all in my opinion.
What are your thoughts on this?
The rule is crystal clear when read in isolation: do you have a benefit that's provided by your class, race, or literally any other source … Keep it.
The rule provides only two exceptions to this:
However, do yourself a favor and do not google any of Crawford's "clarifications" of this rule!!!!! His tweets directly contradict the text of the rule, and try to create a fuzzy concept that relies on whether a feature "affects" a replaced stat that is in practice impossible to arbitrate. He has ruled that beast forms keep the humanoid's Sunlight Sensitivity (despite this not being a "benefit"). He has ruled that there is a magical distinction between racial features and other features, to justify applying an elf's Fleet of Foot to a beast form but not Toughness.
It really is so much simpler when you ignore the extra noise and just go by what the rulebook says. Keep your swim speed if you have a way of moving. Keep your breathing feature if you still breathe. Don't keep low-light vision, dark vision, scent, tremorsense, blindsense, etc. unless the new form has it as well, in which case you would use the better version between the two forms. Keep any other magical or quasi-magical abilities, like pass without a trace (although you can't cast spells while in Beast form, barring some high level druid abilities). Keep your resistances. Keep your feats. Keep your ASI. Keep everything.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
When in doubt, ask your DM. Druid wild shape is one of the most confusing rule questions of 5e in my opinion.
i doubt any of you would respond to this but would a changeling be able to change shape while wildshaped? for example if i turned into a brown bear could i keep the stats of a brown bear but look like a different creature of the same size with the same basic limbs?
I think they would! But they'd need to have seen the other type of creature in order to shapechange into it, by RAW.
Either way it's a fun idea.
Helpful rewriter of Japanese->English translation and delver into software codebases (she/e/they)
In each case the rule remains that:
IF your DM rules that a changelings ability to change shape doesn't derive from the changlings' non-neural physiology or if you find a rules content on changlings to this effect then sure.
I wouldn't rule that a water genasi could breathe underwater once wildshaped into a dire wolf.
Yeah super DM dependent. Wildshape is such a subjective ability. Some DMs will absolutely say no. And they'd be justified. Some will say go for it. They'd also be justified.
Who know? Best to talk with your DM when you make your druid how they feel about racial traits and which stick around and which don't. I know I'm super liberal and if we can come up with any imaginable way for the trait to stick around it does. Tortle druid? Your wildshaped bear has a shell. Have fun with your 17 AC bear IDC. Put an ASI into +2 Strength? All your shapes are stronger than weaker druids who don't lift bro. Why not. Have fun.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
The Changeling question is pretty interesting. I went back and reread the Changeling's Shapechanger ability, just to make sure that it doesn't say "Humanoid" in its description... but it simply says "Race".
It depends on DM interpretation, but for me, if I was the DM, I'd still limit shape changing while wild-shaped to creatures that would be considered the same "race" as the creature you're wild-shaped into. So as a Brown Bear you can then shape change to be any other ursine creature but you can't turn into, say... a cow, despite the two of them being a similar size and shape.
Watch Crits for Breakfast, an adults-only RP-Heavy Roll20 Livestream at twitch.tv/afterdisbooty
And now you too can play with the amazing art and assets we use in Roll20 for our campaign at Hazel's Emporium
Yeah, like a panda bear. Or they wildshape into a rat and then shapechange into a different Tiny rodent. Or be a weasel that looks like a skunk or badger. (I suppose that's getting into beasts of the same Family or Order.)
Helpful rewriter of Japanese->English translation and delver into software codebases (she/e/they)
well my 2 big ideas about this would be wildshaping into an ape and then shapechanging to a human so you are just stronger and can walk around like that without raising any suspicion about an ape walking around with some people or wildshaping into something like a bear then shapechanging into something that has the same basic arrangement of limbs, that is weaker then a bear so you just look like something weaker then all of a sudden you punch someone and they take like twice as much damage as they would have expected.
also the only real restrictions set on changlings shapechanger ability is that whatever you change into has to be the same size and have the same basic arrangement of limbs which depending on the dm both of those are very flexible.
If you keep the breathing feature of an air genasi because the animal still breaths, do you keep the dragonborn breath attack if the animal can still breath? Do you keep the lizardfolk "hungry jaws" feature if the animal has jaws, or the minotaur "goring rush" and "hammering horns" feature if the animal has horns? The thri-kreen has "chameleon carapace". Can every insect it turns into use it. Is it a "thri-kreen carapace", an "insect carapace" or just a "carapace" that is required. Because technically a turtle's shell is a carapace.
My first thought is you keep anything purely attributed to your mind, including skills. But the description does directly refute that, only to make it more confusing.
IMHO an animal isn't physycally capable of making Breath Weapon so it should not be able do so.
If the animal has a Bite action, then Hungry Maw could potentially be usable.
An animal with horns would be physically capable of using Goring Rush and Hammering Horns with or following its own Horn action and perhaps even be able to use Minotaur's Horns statistics if similar enought is size, shape etc..
An animal shouldn' be physycally capable of using Chamaleon Carapace despite having a carapace of some sort.
Similar physical attributes may possibly allow some racial traits or features to be used depending on the exact nature of it. My interrogation would be wether it is unique to it or potentially replicable or not.
I agree, but I'd also like to comment on the Air Genasi... I feel that an air Genasi's ability to hold their breath indefinitely isn't a purely "physical" trait. It's not like they have super big lungs that can just hold a lot of air... they have some kind of metaphysical access to air outside of their body's physical form, so I would still let a Druid use that feature while wild shaped, regardless of what creature they turned into.
Watch Crits for Breakfast, an adults-only RP-Heavy Roll20 Livestream at twitch.tv/afterdisbooty
And now you too can play with the amazing art and assets we use in Roll20 for our campaign at Hazel's Emporium
Yeah anything that can be clearly determined as magical I leave in for wildshape. If I had a protector aasimar circle of the moon druid use their racial ability to grow wings for 1 min of flying I would allow it, same with eladrin fey step, or magical resistance like fire genasi, tiefling, deep gnome etc.
> If you keep the breathing feature of an air genasi because the animal still breaths, do you keep the dragonborn breath attack if the animal can still breath? Do you keep the lizardfolk "hungry jaws" feature if the animal has jaws, or the minotaur "goring rush" and "hammering horns" feature if the animal has horns? The thri-kreen has "chameleon carapace". Can every insect it turns into use it. Is it a "thri-kreen carapace", an "insect carapace" or just a "carapace" that is required. Because technically a turtle's shell is a carapace.
i feel like you worded this in a way that was supposed to emphasize ridiculousness, but just pointed out all of the most reasonable examples possible
yes, the breath weapon works. Think of a wildshaped beast as altering the body of the original creature, rather than being a completely different body they inhabit. That’s why some of the racial features transfer over.
hungry jaws is basically a learned ability. It’s a quicker bite attack they learned how to do
same with the minotaur ones
most importantly, none of these features are broken or overly powerful. They’re just fun.
The way I read the RAI is that any racial features that don't appear in anatomy (e.g., Long-Limbed of the bugbear, etc.) are available during wild shape. And there are many races... and sooo many racial features. For example, it seems plausible that druids would retain all of the following sorts of racial features:
There are a couple racial features of the dragonborn that are unclear: breath weapon because breathing seems so closely tied to anatomy.
There are several other races not mentioned here.
IMO this gets silly at a certain point. My druids have been human and half elf. I'm much more interested in story than optimizing, engaging in OP, etc.
Started playing AD&D in the late 70s and stopped in the mid-80s. Started immersing myself into 5e in 2023
I agree that all of the things you mentioned apply, but would take it a step further.
Breath Weapon carries over bc Crawford said it did, and that's my basis for a Lot of my takes on wildshape