Would you reverse the effect, for targets making saving throws, and rolling a Nat 1? Our DM has been ruling that a Nat 1 on a spell save causes maximum damage/effect.
RAW, no. What your DM does seems incredibly deadly. Not only since you normally don't autofail saves on a 1 which means that everyone's saving throws are incredibly nerfed and certain class abilites (Monks' Diamond Soul and Paladins' Aura of Protection) even more so. Add to the fact that most spells that require a saving throw (like fireball) doesn't use attack rolls which means that you can't get a critical hit with them. On top of that, maximum damage is almost certain to be as high or, depending on the roll, higher than doubling the dice from a critical hit.
For weapon Crits, we maximize the base attack, then roll the extra set of dice *OR* get to pick an extra effect like "knock prone", "dazed", or "disarmed". So longsword does 8 (+bonuses), with potential for d8 more (no bonuses) or a flashy effect. Compared to that, "max damage on a spell" didn't seem too powerful for a Nat 1 (essentially, the spell critically hitting). I'm not aware of any situation where I would normally succeed on a roll of 1+bonuses, since DCs start at 10 even for incompetent "stat 10" casters.
Of course, we've only played through level 4 so far. No one has "Nat 1'd" a fireball save or dragonbreath, for example.
So besides the fact that you rather drastically changed the rules of the game you also failed to take into account the fact that a single weapon attack only does damage and only to a single creature whereas many spells can target multiple people?
Also, "not succeeding on a roll of 1+bonuses" is not the same thing as "critical failure on a rolle of 1". If you have a Paladin in your party at level 6 (or just anyone who can cast Bless) you can easily have saving throw bonuses of 10+.
Okay, I see your point that medium to high-level characters can succeed on weak saves, even with a 1. What if the rule had the slight tweak "Unless a '1' would succeed"?
To be fair, a target who "Nat 20's" a save takes automatic minimum damage. And that will happen just as often as someone rolling a Nat 1. In this case, they were on the edge of the blast, or perhaps sheltered behind another target, etc.
So yes, I might catch 15 people with a fireball, and maybe I crit one of them for max damage (Nat 1, no paladins = 48 dmg); I'm also likely to catch one just barely, who takes just 4 damage (half for making his save, and min for rolling a 20). Everyone else will be taking probably 14 or 28 damage based on their saves.
So, according to our rules, the first d12 is maxed, and then he gets to roll the bonus d12 for the crit (basic rules). And then he gets the 3 bonus d12s for the crit (barbarian 17). so 12+4d12+STR.
If he had some power like a bugbear, and did an extra d6 with melee weapons, the bonus d6 would be maximized, and he'd roll an extra d6.
Let's say was a Barbarian 17, Rogue 3, with a magical mithril axe that counted as a Light weapon. On a normal hit, d12; on a normal sneak attack, d12+2d6. On a normal crit, 12+4d12. On a sneak attack crit, 12+4d12+4d6.
If it is a die that you add on a hit (Hex, Sneak, Battle master...) you double it. If it is a die that you add on a crit (Half Orc or Barbarian) you only add it once.
I had a character get on-shot killed from full HP by an enemy who cast Inflict Wounds and got a crit (3d10 damage doubled to 6d10). It was hilarious... we were confident it would be a simple fight and the very first thing that happens was the enemy cleric touches my character who just withers and dies.
I love Inflict Wounds. I have a Whispers Bard 6/Divine Soul Sorcerer 1 that tries as often as possible to start every fight with an “Honorable Handshake.” 😉
No worries. Easy mistake to make.
Okay, I see your point that medium to high-level characters can succeed on weak saves, even with a 1. What if the rule had the slight tweak "Unless a '1' would succeed"?
To be fair, a target who "Nat 20's" a save takes automatic minimum damage. And that will happen just as often as someone rolling a Nat 1. In this case, they were on the edge of the blast, or perhaps sheltered behind another target, etc.
So yes, I might catch 15 people with a fireball, and maybe I crit one of them for max damage (Nat 1, no paladins = 48 dmg); I'm also likely to catch one just barely, who takes just 4 damage (half for making his save, and min for rolling a 20). Everyone else will be taking probably 14 or 28 damage based on their saves.
How about the Barbarian Crit... For example, if you had a lvl20 barbarian. He rolls 3 additional dies on a critical...
If he attacks with a great axe, will he roll the 1d12 twice and then roll 3 more D12s or will he roll 4d12 twice?
=)
Matt Zenero!
So, according to our rules, the first d12 is maxed, and then he gets to roll the bonus d12 for the crit (basic rules). And then he gets the 3 bonus d12s for the crit (barbarian 17). so 12+4d12+STR.
If he had some power like a bugbear, and did an extra d6 with melee weapons, the bonus d6 would be maximized, and he'd roll an extra d6.
Let's say was a Barbarian 17, Rogue 3, with a magical mithril axe that counted as a Light weapon. On a normal hit, d12; on a normal sneak attack, d12+2d6. On a normal crit, 12+4d12. On a sneak attack crit, 12+4d12+4d6.
K, got i!
You really just add the die after the crit.
Tks! =)
=)
Matt Zenero!
If it is a die that you add on a hit (Hex, Sneak, Battle master...) you double it. If it is a die that you add on a crit (Half Orc or Barbarian) you only add it once.
Attack: [roll]3d20dl2+6[/roll] Damage: [roll](if([roll:-1:critical], =0, 1d8, 2{1d8}.expand()))+4[/roll] Sneakattack: [roll](if([roll:-2:critical], =0, 2d6, 2{2d6}.expand()))[/roll]I had a character get on-shot killed from full HP by an enemy who cast Inflict Wounds and got a crit (3d10 damage doubled to 6d10). It was hilarious... we were confident it would be a simple fight and the very first thing that happens was the enemy cleric touches my character who just withers and dies.
I love Inflict Wounds. I have a Whispers Bard 6/Divine Soul Sorcerer 1 that tries as often as possible to start every fight with an “Honorable Handshake.” 😉
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