I don't understand the relationship between Investigation and Perception. According to the Player's Handbook, both are to be used for finding hidden objects:
Investigation
When you look around for clues and make deductions based on those clues, you make an Intelligence (Investigation) check. You might deduce the location of a hidden object...
Perception
Your Wisdom (Perception) check lets you spot, hear, or otherwise detect the presence of something. ... FINDING A HIDDEN OBJECT: When your character searches for a hidden object such as a secret door or a trap, the DM typically asks you to make a Wisdom (Perception) check.
Perception is like looking around a room as you enter it. You scan the room to get an idea of what's in there. Now, if your Perception is high enough, you might catch that the panels on a wall are slightly off color, there's scratches on the floor by the fireplace, or that there's a strange lump under the rug on the far side of the room. All of these would indicate that there's a possibility of a hidden something in those locations.
Investigation is the act of trying to find something. You see that there's off colored panels with your Perception so you go to look closer, now you're Investigating the area to find the mechanism to open the hidden panel. You head to the fireplace and start to look for a lever or button, this is an Investigation. In the case of the rug, well, lifting the rug is just a simple act that doesn't need Investigation.
This is my least favourite rule in 5E. Before I make a character for a new DM, I ask how they use Investigation and Perception, since it's easy enough to influence how the game will go.
Some DMs will use this as written, and have Perception/Investigation used interchangeably. Some use Perception for generally seeing, and Investigation for when you 'take a closer look'.
I use it a little bit differently. Going off of the word deduction from the skill description of Investigation, I go all in and just call in the Deduction skill in my game. You roll Investigation in order to put together clues. Blood on the wall, drops of blood on the ground, no body? Investigation might let you deduce what kind of trauma caused the blood, how old the blood is, trajectory, etc. Very "CSI" style. You see a trap? Investigation lets you deduce exactly how it works. Trying to solve a riddle? Investigation lets you deduce what you can based on the clues you've discovered. Basically, the players come up with a list of clues gathered by social checks, Perception checks, and knowledge rolls, and then can use Investigation to piece the clues together, with a DC changing based on how many of the clues they've found.
It's a tricky one indeed! Coming over from Pathfinder myself about a year ago now, I was all about it being Perception for almost everything. I noticed a trend with my players, they're always looking to min/min abilities, stats..whatever you name it. I then started making it Investigation to find the or look for that trap on the door. In the end and I have no idea what's correct and what isn't I defaulted back to 3e. Perception = Spot and Investigation = Search. I found it had a nice mix.
I check the door for traps, ok roll and investigation check.
I'm going to look for secret door, ok roll a perception check.
Do I see any enemies? Roll for investigation
I look through the papers on the desk. Ok roll for investigation
Now this drives my players crazy! Often I call for a roll that I see fit for the situation. On the other hand a first level cleric with a 16 Wisdom (human variant) with observant sits with 20 passive perception isn't going to miss much and doesn't allow the players to work through problems they just fall back on but my passive is argument. If this has been addressed by Crawford I'd love to see a link to it however.
Perception has to do with the character's senses. What do they see, hear, smell, taste, touch or otherwise sense from their environment.
Investigation has to do with logical reasoning or how you interpret the information provided by your senses.
Either can be used to find hidden things depending on the circumstances and it is up to the DM to decide which is applicable.
Here are some examples:
Finding doors or traps via perception checks:
- noticing a hair thin line that defines the edge of a hidden door would likely be a perception check.
- feeling a slight breeze around the edge of a hidden or secret door might be a perception check.
- hearing the faint sound of running water from behind a hidden door might be a perception check.
- looking into a lock and noticing that there appears to be an unexpected sharp object at the top of the lock might be a perception check.
- examining a lock and smelling a faint acrid smell associated with poison might be a perception check.
- noticing a concealed hair thin wire running across the floor might be a perception check.
In these cases, the challenge is noticing something associated with what is hidden but once noticed it is usually pretty obvious that you are dealing with a door or a trap or something hidden.
Finding doors or traps via investigation:
However, sometimes the clues are pretty obvious but what they MEAN is not and that requires an investigation check.
- examining a desk drawer. The drawer is perhaps oddly shallow. Investigation check to find the hidden compartment at the back of the drawer.
- there are some scapes on the floor. These are pretty obvious but it might require an investigation check to determine that they are caused by a hidden door opening into the room.
- a lock contains an odd black substance. Investigation check to determine that the substance is flamable and will likely explode if the chest is opened.
- a chest has three key holes. Investigation check to examine the mechanism and deduce the proper order to insert the keys.
- a book on a bookshelf protrudes about 1/2" farther than the others. Investigation check might determine that this is attached to a release mechanism for a secret door.
- Carpet isn't lying perfectly flat. Investigation check to determine that this is caused by something specific under the carpet .. perhaps a hidden trap door.
So from my perspective ... perception is used for things that are difficult to detect but usually fairly easy to figure out when found while investigation is used for things that are fairly easily found but harder to figure out what they mean. Investigation uses logical reasoning to deduce the existence or location of something hidden while perception is related to directly sensing something related to the hidden object.
There are cases where both a perception check and investigation check might be required to figure something out.
Perception checks are obviously required because a player can never know what a character can sense ... it is all abstracted. However, investigation is a "hybrid" skill in that some players are good at deductive reasoning and when the DM gives them what the character sees they immediately start looking for the hidden item. However, the player is not the character andnot all players are the same ... so making an investigation check allows for the characters ability to reason logically and figure out puzzles and clues to be taken into account when resolving an in game task.
I’ve worked out the difference in use to play out like, my characters walk into a room and don’t have PP high enough to meet the DC to spot everything in the room. So I have them roll Perception and then describe the contents of the room according to their rolls, with the PP as the lowest result. “With that roll, you notice that while everything in the room looks generally disused for years, the fire in the grate has been tended to recently. And the dust under several items on the shelves have been disturbed.” Or outdoors: “I want to listen for anyone else who might be in these woods with me.” OK Roll perception.
An investigation roll would be what I ask for if they were in a room and were like “I know he ducked in here. There has to be a secret exit. I want to look for it.” Roll investigation.
Griffin McElroy from TAZ just goes with Perception is finding something you can't see, and Investigation is examining an object you can see.
This is what I do. It provides as good a dividing line as any for the skills, though it's not always clear. Also, there are some cases where both or either skills might apply.
For example, in "I search the room" type cases, I generally have the characters make both investigation and perception checks. In the secret door example, a successful perception check would reveal a gentle breeze coming from under the secret door, but an investigation check wouldn't. I would allow a successful investigation OR perception check to notice the scratches from the door, as either a particularly keen eye or a particularly thorough search would reveal them.
Here's a summary of what I gathered in various online discussions...
Perception involves the senses (sight, hearing, smell...) together with intuition to determine immediate impressions. Perception is noticing/observing your surroundings. Do you hear someone walking, smell an odour, notice what's happening around you?
Investigation involves active analysis of details to determine something that is not clear at a first glance. Investigation usually takes more than one action / round and involves reasoning / deduction. To use investigation state…
I keep it simple. Are you already aware of the creature/thing? If no, then roll perception. If yes, then roll investigation.
This is what I do. Are you already aware of the thing, and want to mess with it? Investigation. Not yet aware of the thing? Perception.
However, there's many occasions where either will work. In the "hidden compartment in a drawer" example above, I'd let the player choose. They might be able to deduce the drawer appears too shallow (Investigation), or they might notice the thin gap between the bottom and front of the drawer (Perception).
You can only investigate something you are aware of or there is an implication of that something might be present. e.g. if a player, from a passive perception check, spots scrape marks on a floor near a bookcase, then I'd then make them roll an investigation check.
However, if they are performing a general search, without any clues or knowledge that something may or may not be hidden, then I use perception.
I like the concept of Perception being spotting/noticing something you aren't aware of, and Investigation being examining something you are aware of.
For testing the concept, lets take an evil artificer's locked and trapped door. The door is locked and the keyhole is electrified if anything conductive (metal) is inserted into it. The key is made of wood. DCs associated with the door are 15 (for simplicity). So with a perception check, the party could notice:
A wire sticking in the keyhole that seems out of place
Wood splinters around the keyhole opening
A hum coming from the power source hidden in the frame at the top of the door
Then, with an investigation check, they could deduce:
That the wooden key they took off the corpse of a creature earlier might fit the door (they might find wear/splintering on the key)
That the wire connects to a power source
That the sound emanating from the door frame is common in electrified objects (lightning damage)
That the power source must run an electric current to the keyhole that will electrify anyone who inserts a metal object.
Then, they could either insert the wooden key, or try to disarm the trap (DEX (thieves tools to pry the power source out of the frame, etc).
If they noticed the oddities about the door, independently deduced a trap, but didn't investigate (or did and failed), you could give disadvantage on the roll to disarm the trap (they never figured out how it works).
I cast resurrection on this topic. The 2024 rules has this blurb.
Don’t use the Investigation skill to determine if a character notices something—that’s the purview of Perception. For example, a successful Wisdom (Perception) check allows a character to find a secret door or something that betrays its presence, such as thin seams marking the edges of the door. If the secret door is locked, a successful Intelligence (Investigation) check would allow a character to figure out the trick to opening it—by turning a nearby statue so it faces the door, for example.
I don't understand the relationship between Investigation and Perception. According to the Player's Handbook, both are to be used for finding hidden objects:
Investigation
When you look around for clues and make deductions based on those clues, you make an Intelligence (Investigation) check. You might deduce the location of a hidden object...
Perception
Your Wisdom (Perception) check lets you spot, hear, or otherwise detect the presence of something. ... FINDING A HIDDEN OBJECT: When your character searches for a hidden object such as a secret door or a trap, the DM typically asks you to make a Wisdom (Perception) check.
This is my view on it, so take it as you will:
Perception is like looking around a room as you enter it. You scan the room to get an idea of what's in there. Now, if your Perception is high enough, you might catch that the panels on a wall are slightly off color, there's scratches on the floor by the fireplace, or that there's a strange lump under the rug on the far side of the room. All of these would indicate that there's a possibility of a hidden something in those locations.
Investigation is the act of trying to find something. You see that there's off colored panels with your Perception so you go to look closer, now you're Investigating the area to find the mechanism to open the hidden panel. You head to the fireplace and start to look for a lever or button, this is an Investigation. In the case of the rug, well, lifting the rug is just a simple act that doesn't need Investigation.
This is my least favourite rule in 5E. Before I make a character for a new DM, I ask how they use Investigation and Perception, since it's easy enough to influence how the game will go.
Some DMs will use this as written, and have Perception/Investigation used interchangeably. Some use Perception for generally seeing, and Investigation for when you 'take a closer look'.
I use it a little bit differently. Going off of the word deduction from the skill description of Investigation, I go all in and just call in the Deduction skill in my game. You roll Investigation in order to put together clues. Blood on the wall, drops of blood on the ground, no body? Investigation might let you deduce what kind of trauma caused the blood, how old the blood is, trajectory, etc. Very "CSI" style. You see a trap? Investigation lets you deduce exactly how it works. Trying to solve a riddle? Investigation lets you deduce what you can based on the clues you've discovered. Basically, the players come up with a list of clues gathered by social checks, Perception checks, and knowledge rolls, and then can use Investigation to piece the clues together, with a DC changing based on how many of the clues they've found.
It's a tricky one indeed! Coming over from Pathfinder myself about a year ago now, I was all about it being Perception for almost everything. I noticed a trend with my players, they're always looking to min/min abilities, stats..whatever you name it. I then started making it Investigation to find the or look for that trap on the door. In the end and I have no idea what's correct and what isn't I defaulted back to 3e. Perception = Spot and Investigation = Search. I found it had a nice mix.
I check the door for traps, ok roll and investigation check.
I'm going to look for secret door, ok roll a perception check.
Do I see any enemies? Roll for investigation
I look through the papers on the desk. Ok roll for investigation
Now this drives my players crazy! Often I call for a roll that I see fit for the situation. On the other hand a first level cleric with a 16 Wisdom (human variant) with observant sits with 20 passive perception isn't going to miss much and doesn't allow the players to work through problems they just fall back on but my passive is argument. If this has been addressed by Crawford I'd love to see a link to it however.
The answer is it depends ...
Perception has to do with the character's senses. What do they see, hear, smell, taste, touch or otherwise sense from their environment.
Investigation has to do with logical reasoning or how you interpret the information provided by your senses.
Either can be used to find hidden things depending on the circumstances and it is up to the DM to decide which is applicable.
Here are some examples:
Finding doors or traps via perception checks:
- noticing a hair thin line that defines the edge of a hidden door would likely be a perception check.
- feeling a slight breeze around the edge of a hidden or secret door might be a perception check.
- hearing the faint sound of running water from behind a hidden door might be a perception check.
- looking into a lock and noticing that there appears to be an unexpected sharp object at the top of the lock might be a perception check.
- examining a lock and smelling a faint acrid smell associated with poison might be a perception check.
- noticing a concealed hair thin wire running across the floor might be a perception check.
In these cases, the challenge is noticing something associated with what is hidden but once noticed it is usually pretty obvious that you are dealing with a door or a trap or something hidden.
Finding doors or traps via investigation:
However, sometimes the clues are pretty obvious but what they MEAN is not and that requires an investigation check.
- examining a desk drawer. The drawer is perhaps oddly shallow. Investigation check to find the hidden compartment at the back of the drawer.
- there are some scapes on the floor. These are pretty obvious but it might require an investigation check to determine that they are caused by a hidden door opening into the room.
- a lock contains an odd black substance. Investigation check to determine that the substance is flamable and will likely explode if the chest is opened.
- a chest has three key holes. Investigation check to examine the mechanism and deduce the proper order to insert the keys.
- a book on a bookshelf protrudes about 1/2" farther than the others. Investigation check might determine that this is attached to a release mechanism for a secret door.
- Carpet isn't lying perfectly flat. Investigation check to determine that this is caused by something specific under the carpet .. perhaps a hidden trap door.
So from my perspective ... perception is used for things that are difficult to detect but usually fairly easy to figure out when found while investigation is used for things that are fairly easily found but harder to figure out what they mean. Investigation uses logical reasoning to deduce the existence or location of something hidden while perception is related to directly sensing something related to the hidden object.
There are cases where both a perception check and investigation check might be required to figure something out.
Perception checks are obviously required because a player can never know what a character can sense ... it is all abstracted. However, investigation is a "hybrid" skill in that some players are good at deductive reasoning and when the DM gives them what the character sees they immediately start looking for the hidden item. However, the player is not the character andnot all players are the same ... so making an investigation check allows for the characters ability to reason logically and figure out puzzles and clues to be taken into account when resolving an in game task.
Griffin McElroy from TAZ just goes with Perception is finding something you can't see, and Investigation is examining an object you can see.
There are also some DMs that allow for different checks to accomplish the same thing, so allowing an Investigation or a Perception check.
I’ve worked out the difference in use to play out like, my characters walk into a room and don’t have PP high enough to meet the DC to spot everything in the room. So I have them roll Perception and then describe the contents of the room according to their rolls, with the PP as the lowest result. “With that roll, you notice that while everything in the room looks generally disused for years, the fire in the grate has been tended to recently. And the dust under several items on the shelves have been disturbed.” Or outdoors: “I want to listen for anyone else who might be in these woods with me.” OK Roll perception.
An investigation roll would be what I ask for if they were in a room and were like “I know he ducked in here. There has to be a secret exit. I want to look for it.” Roll investigation.
Rather thank think about the difference between Perception and Investigation, think about the difference between Wisdom and Intelligence.
Wisdom lets you notice:
Intelligence lets you deduce:
This is what I do. It provides as good a dividing line as any for the skills, though it's not always clear. Also, there are some cases where both or either skills might apply.
For example, in "I search the room" type cases, I generally have the characters make both investigation and perception checks. In the secret door example, a successful perception check would reveal a gentle breeze coming from under the secret door, but an investigation check wouldn't. I would allow a successful investigation OR perception check to notice the scratches from the door, as either a particularly keen eye or a particularly thorough search would reveal them.
Here's a summary of what I gathered in various online discussions...
Perception involves the senses (sight, hearing, smell...) together with intuition to determine immediate impressions. Perception is noticing/observing your surroundings. Do you hear someone walking, smell an odour, notice what's happening around you?
Investigation involves active analysis of details to determine something that is not clear at a first glance. Investigation usually takes more than one action / round and involves reasoning / deduction. To use investigation state…
I will spend… (how long?)…
Searching/Examining… (where/what?)…
Focusing on finding… (what?)…
I keep it simple. Are you already aware of the creature/thing? If no, then roll perception. If yes, then roll investigation.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
This is what I do. Are you already aware of the thing, and want to mess with it? Investigation. Not yet aware of the thing? Perception.
However, there's many occasions where either will work. In the "hidden compartment in a drawer" example above, I'd let the player choose. They might be able to deduce the drawer appears too shallow (Investigation), or they might notice the thin gap between the bottom and front of the drawer (Perception).
My take on this is as follows:
You can only investigate something you are aware of or there is an implication of that something might be present. e.g. if a player, from a passive perception check, spots scrape marks on a floor near a bookcase, then I'd then make them roll an investigation check.
However, if they are performing a general search, without any clues or knowledge that something may or may not be hidden, then I use perception.
I like the concept of Perception being spotting/noticing something you aren't aware of, and Investigation being examining something you are aware of.
For testing the concept, lets take an evil artificer's locked and trapped door. The door is locked and the keyhole is electrified if anything conductive (metal) is inserted into it. The key is made of wood. DCs associated with the door are 15 (for simplicity). So with a perception check, the party could notice:
Then, with an investigation check, they could deduce:
Then, they could either insert the wooden key, or try to disarm the trap (DEX (thieves tools to pry the power source out of the frame, etc).
If they noticed the oddities about the door, independently deduced a trap, but didn't investigate (or did and failed), you could give disadvantage on the roll to disarm the trap (they never figured out how it works).
I cast resurrection on this topic.
The 2024 rules has this blurb.
Don’t use the Investigation skill to determine if a character notices something—that’s the purview of Perception. For example, a successful Wisdom (Perception) check allows a character to find a secret door or something that betrays its presence, such as thin seams marking the edges of the door. If the secret door is locked, a successful Intelligence (Investigation) check would allow a character to figure out the trick to opening it—by turning a nearby statue so it faces the door, for example.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/dnd/dmg-2024/running-the-game#WhentoCallforaCheck
The way I read that, I've been doing it wrong. When players say they want to search a room, it's perception.
Yeah, there's a related thread discussing the same topic here: Your opinion on this specific example of the Perception vs Investigation? - Rules & Game Mechanics
That advice in the DMG is nice ;)
Wow! Quick reply. Thanks.
I like your Emoji.