Does dropping a grappled creature off a cliff or into a hole require a Shove? Why can't I simply move the target over the edge and end the grapple, causing them to fall? For example, say there's a hostile creature between me and a cliff's edge, with no space between the edge and the creature, nor between me and the creature. In my turn, I could grapple the creature, move 5' towards the edge while dragging/carrying the grappled creature, which would result in me being adjacent to the edge, and the creature being over the edge, and end the grapple, causing the creature to fall, having no ground under them to support them. Or can you just not drag/carry a creature over the air, and therefore would need to shove them instead of grappling them?
You could do so if you’re an Aarokricora. I am in a campaign where one of the players main ways of attacking is grapple, dash upwards, drop, 6d6 damage.
I remember a huge discussion about this involving moving a creature through Spike Growth using Grapple and it got all sorts of crazy. Essentially a grapple is anything from holding a creature's arm to full out bear hugging them. Moving a creature while grappling them, in most peoples' minds, consisted of pulling them "behind" them while they moved. This created all sorts of arguments and opposing views.
I, personally, see no reason why you can't grapple on turn 1 then Shove on turn 2. When it comes to Grapple, walk to a ledge, drop...I simply ask: would you like to have your character dropped from a cliff, or into a pool of lava, with no recourse?
In the end I would say that the decision rests solely on the shoulders of your DM as to whether you can do that type of action or not.
You could do so if you’re an Aarokricora. I am in a campaign where one of the players main ways of attacking is grapple, dash upwards, drop, 6d6 damage.
Setting up an aaracokra for dropping people is tricky. You need to be a rogue or monk to get dash as a bonus action in order to counteract the fact that you move at half speed if moving someone while grappling. Ideally you would also get the bonus speed from a monk. But those are dex based classes and you need a high strength for the Athletics check to grab them and to have your carrying capacity high enough to be able to get off the ground with the enemy and your gear. So to actually have it work reliably with medium sized creatures you want to also be a barbarian to get advantage on the grapple and get powerful build at 6th level with bear totem.
Would you allow the dropped creature to use its reaction to make a skill check to grab something to avoid falling. I always give a PC that opportunity when they are about to fall.
I, personally, see no reason why you can't grapple on turn 1 then Shove on turn 2. When it comes to Grapple, walk to a ledge, drop...I simply ask: would you like to have your character dropped from a cliff, or into a pool of lava, with no recourse?
Grappling then shoving works great, but I can't fault a player for trying to efficiently do something which the rules allow. I would argue that the recourse was winning the grapple contest. While I agree that things like lava and cliff edges are cinematic and cool, when they are included in an encounter the players should try to exploit them. This is why, as a DM, I use these kinds of sets sparingly. I would definitely call for a dex save also if the creature/player being dropped was adjacent to the ledge.
Would you allow the dropped creature to use its reaction to make a skill check to grab something to avoid falling. I always give a PC that opportunity when they are about to fall.
...or even to attempt to grapple the person trying to drop them.
I, personally, see no reason why you can't grapple on turn 1 then Shove on turn 2. When it comes to Grapple, walk to a ledge, drop...I simply ask: would you like to have your character dropped from a cliff, or into a pool of lava, with no recourse?
Grappling then shoving works great, but I can't fault a player for trying to efficiently do something which the rules allow. I would argue that the recourse was winning the grapple contest. While I agree that things like lava and cliff edges are cinematic and cool, when they are included in an encounter the players should try to exploit them. This is why, as a DM, I use these kinds of sets sparingly. I would definitely call for a dex save also if the creature/player being dropped was adjacent to the ledge.
I understand your stance, and I can agree with it. I had a long conversation about it last night with another DM and your view was brought up. The main reason for my points was to present food for thought. This is a tricky situation that should be resolved on a case by case manner, which is why I ended with saying it's up to the DM's discretion in the end.
Would you allow the dropped creature to use its reaction to make a skill check to grab something to avoid falling. I always give a PC that opportunity when they are about to fall.
...or even to attempt to grapple the person trying to drop them.
This type of resolution is also a plausible approach to the situation as well. It allows for some rather interesting RP and cinematic situations as well. The whole "bad guys is thought to be dead but claws back up for a final gambit" type result. That sounds like a lot of fun to me.
I remember a huge discussion about this involving moving a creature through Spike Growth using Grapple and it got all sorts of crazy. Essentially a grapple is anything from holding a creature's arm to full out bear hugging them. Moving a creature while grappling them, in most peoples' minds, consisted of pulling them "behind" them while they moved. This created all sorts of arguments and opposing views.
I, personally, see no reason why you can't grapple on turn 1 then Shove on turn 2. When it comes to Grapple, walk to a ledge, drop...I simply ask: would you like to have your character dropped from a cliff, or into a pool of lava, with no recourse?
In the end I would say that the decision rests solely on the shoulders of your DM as to whether you can do that type of action or not.
I was responsible for one of these threads (here). My argument (which I still stand behind) was that for average mooks, no save is warranted. PCs and more important monsters might get a save if there's an adjacent ledge. However my general rationale is encapsulated by the argument below, my emphasis added:
I, personally, see no reason why you can't grapple on turn 1 then Shove on turn 2. When it comes to Grapple, walk to a ledge, drop...I simply ask: would you like to have your character dropped from a cliff, or into a pool of lava, with no recourse?
Grappling then shoving works great, but I can't fault a player for trying to efficiently do something which the rules allow. I would argue that the recourse was winning the grapple contest. While I agree that things like lava and cliff edges are cinematic and cool, when they are included in an encounter the players should try to exploit them. This is why, as a DM, I use these kinds of sets sparingly. I would definitely call for a dex save also if the creature/player being dropped was adjacent to the ledge.
The opposed check to avoid being grappled is sufficient. The creature already got a roll to avoid a bad fate.
I rule that when you moving while grappling someone, you drag them behind you. If you want to drag them into moonbeam or spike growth, that's cool, but you are going to get hit before they do.
I rule that when you moving while grappling someone, you drag them behind you. If you want to drag them into moonbeam or spike growth, that's cool, but you are going to get hit before they do.
What if you want to carry the opponent into the moonbeam?
"Moving a Grappled Creature: When you move, you can drag or carry the Grappled creature with you, but your speed is halved, unless the creature is two or more sizes smaller than you."
For me it's a question of torque. Pushing/pulling is okay—force acting on center of mass is relatively easy. Dragging something to the side of you is not okay—force acting on large lever arm is relatively difficult. Carrying is generally fine too as long as there are no shenanigans involving picking up a creature on one side of you and setting it down on the other side without using any movement. Any movement of the grappled creature should use some of the players movement.
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Does dropping a grappled creature off a cliff or into a hole require a Shove? Why can't I simply move the target over the edge and end the grapple, causing them to fall? For example, say there's a hostile creature between me and a cliff's edge, with no space between the edge and the creature, nor between me and the creature. In my turn, I could grapple the creature, move 5' towards the edge while dragging/carrying the grappled creature, which would result in me being adjacent to the edge, and the creature being over the edge, and end the grapple, causing the creature to fall, having no ground under them to support them. Or can you just not drag/carry a creature over the air, and therefore would need to shove them instead of grappling them?
You could do so if you’re an Aarokricora. I am in a campaign where one of the players main ways of attacking is grapple, dash upwards, drop, 6d6 damage.
Extended Signature! Yay! https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/off-topic/adohands-kitchen/3153-extended-signature-thread?page=2#c21
Haven’t used this account in forever. Still a big fan of crawling claws.
I remember a huge discussion about this involving moving a creature through Spike Growth using Grapple and it got all sorts of crazy. Essentially a grapple is anything from holding a creature's arm to full out bear hugging them. Moving a creature while grappling them, in most peoples' minds, consisted of pulling them "behind" them while they moved. This created all sorts of arguments and opposing views.
I, personally, see no reason why you can't grapple on turn 1 then Shove on turn 2. When it comes to Grapple, walk to a ledge, drop...I simply ask: would you like to have your character dropped from a cliff, or into a pool of lava, with no recourse?
In the end I would say that the decision rests solely on the shoulders of your DM as to whether you can do that type of action or not.
Setting up an aaracokra for dropping people is tricky. You need to be a rogue or monk to get dash as a bonus action in order to counteract the fact that you move at half speed if moving someone while grappling. Ideally you would also get the bonus speed from a monk. But those are dex based classes and you need a high strength for the Athletics check to grab them and to have your carrying capacity high enough to be able to get off the ground with the enemy and your gear. So to actually have it work reliably with medium sized creatures you want to also be a barbarian to get advantage on the grapple and get powerful build at 6th level with bear totem.
Would you allow the dropped creature to use its reaction to make a skill check to grab something to avoid falling. I always give a PC that opportunity when they are about to fall.
Grappling then shoving works great, but I can't fault a player for trying to efficiently do something which the rules allow. I would argue that the recourse was winning the grapple contest. While I agree that things like lava and cliff edges are cinematic and cool, when they are included in an encounter the players should try to exploit them. This is why, as a DM, I use these kinds of sets sparingly. I would definitely call for a dex save also if the creature/player being dropped was adjacent to the ledge.
...or even to attempt to grapple the person trying to drop them.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
I understand your stance, and I can agree with it. I had a long conversation about it last night with another DM and your view was brought up. The main reason for my points was to present food for thought. This is a tricky situation that should be resolved on a case by case manner, which is why I ended with saying it's up to the DM's discretion in the end.
This type of resolution is also a plausible approach to the situation as well. It allows for some rather interesting RP and cinematic situations as well. The whole "bad guys is thought to be dead but claws back up for a final gambit" type result. That sounds like a lot of fun to me.
I was responsible for one of these threads (here). My argument (which I still stand behind) was that for average mooks, no save is warranted. PCs and more important monsters might get a save if there's an adjacent ledge. However my general rationale is encapsulated by the argument below, my emphasis added:
The opposed check to avoid being grappled is sufficient. The creature already got a roll to avoid a bad fate.
I rule that when you moving while grappling someone, you drag them behind you. If you want to drag them into moonbeam or spike growth, that's cool, but you are going to get hit before they do.
What if you want to carry the opponent into the moonbeam?
"Moving a Grappled Creature: When you move, you can drag or carry the Grappled creature with you, but your speed is halved, unless the creature is two or more sizes smaller than you."
For me it's a question of torque. Pushing/pulling is okay—force acting on center of mass is relatively easy. Dragging something to the side of you is not okay—force acting on large lever arm is relatively difficult. Carrying is generally fine too as long as there are no shenanigans involving picking up a creature on one side of you and setting it down on the other side without using any movement. Any movement of the grappled creature should use some of the players movement.