Wanted some opinions on this. I know being knocked prone doesn't stop an attack of opportunity but we came up with a situation in one of my campaigns that I'd like to hear from other people about. Adult Red Dragon using it's Legendary Action of Wing Attack:
The dragon beats its wings. Each creature within 10 feet of the dragon must succeed on a DC 22 Dexterity saving throw or take 15 (2d6 + 8) bludgeoning damage and be knocked prone. The dragon can then fly up to half its flying speed.
It seems to me that the beating wings and knocking people prone is it's way of disengaging for this action since the dragon flying off is part of the description, thus it wouldn't draw an AoO
It's a unique action, a Legendary Action, thus it has unique properties. If I voluntarily move out of range of a creature they may take an OA, it's described very succinctly in the books. Then you take into account special traits such as Flyby which allows a creature to bypass that rule because of it's specific description. We can also see that certain spells bypass the OA rule when teleporting. So we can see that certain actions and abilities can circumvent the OA rule, a dragon beating it's wings, knocking people prone and flying upward as a Legendary Action is one of those things.
For reference look at every scene ever where a helicopter lands, people cover their faces, stop moving and wait for the force of the wind to die down. I could see that as analogous to a dragon beating it's massive wings to lift off.
Yup. That was my understanding of it also but I like to give my players their due and figured I'd ask for some other opinions. Thank you both for the fast responses!
Assuming you're talking about the Adult Red Dragon using its Legendary Action to make a Wing Attack, and then flying out of the melee attack range of one or more of the PCs as part of this action, I don't understand why the the dragon wouldn't provoke opportunity attacks. The dragon is using its own, unforced movement, and is not taking the Disengage action. Any PC that is knocked prone as part of the Wing Attack would make this opportunity attack at disadvantage, but there is nothing in the situation to deny one from PCs who haven't already used their reaction for something else.
Edit: In response to BoboBoombang's answer above, the exact text from the SRD is: "You also don’t provoke an opportunity attack when you teleport or when someone or something moves you without using your movement, action, or reaction." Since the dragon is moving itself, and is therefore not being moved by something or someone else, it still provokes opportunity attacks in this example.
Assuming you're talking about the Adult Red Dragon using its Legendary Action to make a Wing Attack, and then flying out of the melee attack range of one or more of the PCs as part of this action, I don't understand why the the dragon wouldn't provoke opportunity attacks. The dragon is using its own, unforced movement, and is not taking the Disengage action. Any PC that is knocked prone as part of the Wing Attack would make this opportunity attack at disadvantage, but there is nothing in the situation to deny one from PCs who haven't already used their reaction for something else.
By a strict reading of RAW you are correct, the dragon is moving of it's on volition and as such that is something that would provoke an OA.
However, it could be seen in a different light as well, and this is less RAW but bear with me. The dragon is beating it's wings, the force of this motion is strong enough to knock a person prone if they don't brace themselves against it. This means that the ability to swing a sword could be impeded by having to brace against the wind. If you wanted to stick to RAW and say that this Legendary Action caused an OA I would offer that any/all OA attempts, prone or otherwise, would be made at disadvantage.
I can tell you from experience, trying to maintain your balance against a wind strong enough to knock you over and try to maneuver an object of any weight is a very tricky and difficult task.
Does the movement from a dragon’s Wing Attack legendary action draw attacks of opportunity if it moves out of reach? Nothing in Wing Attack protects the dragon from opportunity attacks.
Next question: Does a dragon create wind when they beat their wings? And if so, is it enough to diffuse a fog cloud?
Next question: Does a dragon create wind when they beat their wings? And if so, is it enough to diffuse a fog cloud?
I think that would depend on how you consider the ability works. If the wind is what knocks the people prone, then yes. Otherwise it doesn't create wind and something else about the ability is what knocks the people prone. (which, if it is wind, then it makes me revisit the OA conundrum lol)
I dunno, a DC 22 Dex save or take ~15 damage and get knocked prone is nothing to sneeze at. The only folks likely to make the save and still be on their feet (and thus not attacking at disadvantage) are Rogues, Monks and Rangers, and of those the only real concern is the Rogue, who could get in a sneak attack if there's another friendly close enough to the dragon as it leaves the Rogues reach. But the Rogue may have already used his/her reaction on Uncanny Dodge or Evasion, so perhaps a smart dragon would take this into account, and a smart Rogue wouldn't end their turn so close to the dragon in the first place. Although, if there's a spellcaster with the Warcaster feat, they might also be able to do something particularly troublesome in this situation by casting a spell, which they can do without much penalty while prone.
Does the movement from a dragon’s Wing Attack legendary action draw attacks of opportunity if it moves out of reach? Nothing in Wing Attack protects the dragon from opportunity attacks.
Next question: Does a dragon create wind when they beat their wings? And if so, is it enough to diffuse a fog cloud?
I’d say yes, it creates a wind, but it doesn’t last long enough to diffuse Fog Cloud unless the dragon does it for several rounds.
Hmmm, indeed the legendary may be somewhat exaggerated in this case. Especially since it takes 2 actions. I have a problem with the Sage Advice on this one. I would think that especially since it costs 2 actions and you only get to fly half your movement speed if I was a dragon I'd be pissed that disengage wasn't part of those 2 actions it cost me to flap my wings and gtfo. No offense but dealing 15 damage for a dragon is pretty minor when on a regular turn it can deal ~40. Or take a tail legendary and deal 17 without it costing 2 actions. So here's one more thing that bothers me with that ruling. Why then would it cost 2 actions to flap it's wings and knock someone prone even if it DOESN'T fly away? What's the rest of the 2 actions used for then if it stays put? (PS. It's academic at this point because I already made the ruling in the campaign but I appreciate the conversation!)
Fortunately I don't have to deal with the fog cloud question atm in this campaign because the fog was cast far enough away that it wouldn't be affected, but... Yes. It would cause a lot of wind. I live on a farm and almost every night I have to go down and nudge the tom turkey off the coop door and it flies up onto the roof. I'm standing underneath it when it does this and even though it's only 2 flaps of it's wings it's a good amount of air that's moving. I forget off the top of my head what the wingspan is for an adult dragon. I think it's like 25' ish? It would move a lot of air.
The dragon is beating it's wings, the force of this motion is strong enough to knock a person prone if they don't brace themselves against it. This means that the ability to swing a sword could be impeded by having to brace against the wind.
It's not wind that is doing damage or knocking people prone. The description says: " The dragon beats its wings. Each creature within 10 feet of the dragon must succeed on a DC x Dexterity saving throw or take x bludgeoning damage and be knocked prone. The dragon can then fly up to half its flying speed"
The dragon is trying to bludgeon everything nearby with its wings. The Dex save is to avoid the wings (i.e. there is no Strength save). After the beat-down, the dragon flies pretty much exactly like it normally does on its turn (i.e. no additional effects). If the designers wanted this flying movement to be different, they would've indicated such.
I see nothing wrong with a flying dragon (or even just a wing beat-down) creating a bit of a breeze in regard to Fog Cloud. I mean, it's a DM call, but I think most DM's could agree to it creating a 10 MPH breeze.
Hmmm, indeed the legendary may be somewhat exaggerated in this case. Especially since it takes 2 actions. I have a problem with the Sage Advice on this one. I would think that especially since it costs 2 actions and you only get to fly half your movement speed if I was a dragon I'd be pissed that disengage wasn't part of those 2 actions it cost me to flap my wings and gtfo. No offense but dealing 15 damage for a dragon is pretty minor when on a regular turn it can deal ~40. Or take a tail legendary and deal 17 without it costing 2 actions. So here's one more thing that bothers me with that ruling. Why then would it cost 2 actions to flap it's wings and knock someone prone even if it DOESN'T fly away? What's the rest of the 2 actions used for then if it stays put? (PS. It's academic at this point because I already made the ruling in the campaign but I appreciate the conversation!)
For added perspective, the Legendary part is that the dragon gets to do this at the end of someone else's turn. Flying dragons are already pretty tough adversaries as it is, but certainly all adult and older dragons would be even more formidable if they didn't have to wait until their breath weapon recharged to kite their enemies, and instead could fly in and make their entire multi-attack action on their turn, and then fly away without fear of opportunity attacks at the end of the next opponent's turn.
Are you playing creative simulation? or D&D? because if a Legendary Creature gets unwritten features added on because of simulation, than where are the unwritten simulations hindering the dragon or benefiting the players?
There are tons of ways to create more challenge within the rules, when you take away choices players are entitled to by the system because of simulation, then you reduce interaction and player agency, and start telling a story instead of interacting with a role playing game. Is the fighter's thrown sword attack going to clip the dragons wing sending it falling to the ground and causing additional fall damage? Simulates, right?
It's best not to homebrew restrictions on prescribed player actions. Introduce a random Kobold minion who simply heals back some of the dragons health, same result, within the rules.
Perhaps so, but DnD provides a framework for that simulation, if your going to withdraw players actions whenever your feeling "creative" than prepare to creatively grant them benefits, then as you depart from the game and decide to just make up what happens, you lose the uncertainty and surprise of resolving gameplay through a system with chance.
What is it being suggested here? that a Legendary Action which can be executed on an opponents turn, hit everyone surrounding it, knock them prone, and move... vertically, and instead of just letting the few players who have a melee attack and happen to be in position choose to use their reaction, if it's significant enough to expend, to make an attack at disadvantage? How little does that benefit the gameplay? Is it worth taking away a players entitlement to an action?, possibly disrupting their sense of agency. Of course, great decision making skills like this will never result in a similar occurrence happening over and over again until it sours someone from the game. The point of playing DnD is to have fun, not rationalize penalties out of creativity just because it sounds practical.
As a DM your priority isn't creative simulation, that's just the medium your enjoying, in this case the creative simulation of DnD, the higher priority is having fun, so your decision should be is it making it fun. Unless your players are requesting this behavior, it's a bad idea. Beside, there's enough material to use within the rules to provide for more challenge. There's plenty of times when suspending the rules serves the game, even in challenge, but the default response to taking away players actions for accurate simulation is disapproval, something has to be done to compensate and justify that kind of behavior, and no one but the players subject to those decisions opinion matters on the subject, so coming to the forum and getting approval from ppl who are spectating doesn't amount to anything.
I agree. Everyone having fun is the only thing that truly matters in the end. This is the rules and game mechanics forum, which is why we are digging into the rules and game mechanics.
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Wanted some opinions on this. I know being knocked prone doesn't stop an attack of opportunity but we came up with a situation in one of my campaigns that I'd like to hear from other people about. Adult Red Dragon using it's Legendary Action of Wing Attack:
The dragon beats its wings. Each creature within 10 feet of the dragon must succeed on a DC 22 Dexterity saving throw or take 15 (2d6 + 8) bludgeoning damage and be knocked prone. The dragon can then fly up to half its flying speed.
It seems to me that the beating wings and knocking people prone is it's way of disengaging for this action since the dragon flying off is part of the description, thus it wouldn't draw an AoO
Thoughts?
That's what happens when you wear a helmet your whole life!
My house rules
You don’t draw AoO unless you are using your movement on your turn, an action, or reaction. Therefore, you wouldn’t draw anAoO like that anyways.
least I think that’s how it works,
Extended Signature! Yay! https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/off-topic/adohands-kitchen/3153-extended-signature-thread?page=2#c21
Haven’t used this account in forever. Still a big fan of crawling claws.
It's a unique action, a Legendary Action, thus it has unique properties. If I voluntarily move out of range of a creature they may take an OA, it's described very succinctly in the books. Then you take into account special traits such as Flyby which allows a creature to bypass that rule because of it's specific description. We can also see that certain spells bypass the OA rule when teleporting. So we can see that certain actions and abilities can circumvent the OA rule, a dragon beating it's wings, knocking people prone and flying upward as a Legendary Action is one of those things.
For reference look at every scene ever where a helicopter lands, people cover their faces, stop moving and wait for the force of the wind to die down. I could see that as analogous to a dragon beating it's massive wings to lift off.
Yup. That was my understanding of it also but I like to give my players their due and figured I'd ask for some other opinions. Thank you both for the fast responses!
That's what happens when you wear a helmet your whole life!
My house rules
Assuming you're talking about the Adult Red Dragon using its Legendary Action to make a Wing Attack, and then flying out of the melee attack range of one or more of the PCs as part of this action, I don't understand why the the dragon wouldn't provoke opportunity attacks. The dragon is using its own, unforced movement, and is not taking the Disengage action. Any PC that is knocked prone as part of the Wing Attack would make this opportunity attack at disadvantage, but there is nothing in the situation to deny one from PCs who haven't already used their reaction for something else.
Edit: In response to BoboBoombang's answer above, the exact text from the SRD is: "You also don’t provoke an opportunity attack when you teleport or when someone or something moves you without using your movement, action, or reaction." Since the dragon is moving itself, and is therefore not being moved by something or someone else, it still provokes opportunity attacks in this example.
By a strict reading of RAW you are correct, the dragon is moving of it's on volition and as such that is something that would provoke an OA.
However, it could be seen in a different light as well, and this is less RAW but bear with me. The dragon is beating it's wings, the force of this motion is strong enough to knock a person prone if they don't brace themselves against it. This means that the ability to swing a sword could be impeded by having to brace against the wind. If you wanted to stick to RAW and say that this Legendary Action caused an OA I would offer that any/all OA attempts, prone or otherwise, would be made at disadvantage.
I can tell you from experience, trying to maintain your balance against a wind strong enough to knock you over and try to maneuver an object of any weight is a very tricky and difficult task.
Sage Advice compendium, p. 16
Next question: Does a dragon create wind when they beat their wings? And if so, is it enough to diffuse a fog cloud?
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Not very legendary of an action then :)
The legend is somewhat exaggerated.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
I think that would depend on how you consider the ability works. If the wind is what knocks the people prone, then yes. Otherwise it doesn't create wind and something else about the ability is what knocks the people prone. (which, if it is wind, then it makes me revisit the OA conundrum lol)
You could make the case that getting whacked by the actual wing is what knocks people prone.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
I dunno, a DC 22 Dex save or take ~15 damage and get knocked prone is nothing to sneeze at. The only folks likely to make the save and still be on their feet (and thus not attacking at disadvantage) are Rogues, Monks and Rangers, and of those the only real concern is the Rogue, who could get in a sneak attack if there's another friendly close enough to the dragon as it leaves the Rogues reach. But the Rogue may have already used his/her reaction on Uncanny Dodge or Evasion, so perhaps a smart dragon would take this into account, and a smart Rogue wouldn't end their turn so close to the dragon in the first place. Although, if there's a spellcaster with the Warcaster feat, they might also be able to do something particularly troublesome in this situation by casting a spell, which they can do without much penalty while prone.
I’d say yes, it creates a wind, but it doesn’t last long enough to diffuse Fog Cloud unless the dragon does it for several rounds.
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Hmmm, indeed the legendary may be somewhat exaggerated in this case. Especially since it takes 2 actions. I have a problem with the Sage Advice on this one. I would think that especially since it costs 2 actions and you only get to fly half your movement speed if I was a dragon I'd be pissed that disengage wasn't part of those 2 actions it cost me to flap my wings and gtfo. No offense but dealing 15 damage for a dragon is pretty minor when on a regular turn it can deal ~40. Or take a tail legendary and deal 17 without it costing 2 actions. So here's one more thing that bothers me with that ruling. Why then would it cost 2 actions to flap it's wings and knock someone prone even if it DOESN'T fly away? What's the rest of the 2 actions used for then if it stays put? (PS. It's academic at this point because I already made the ruling in the campaign but I appreciate the conversation!)
Fortunately I don't have to deal with the fog cloud question atm in this campaign because the fog was cast far enough away that it wouldn't be affected, but... Yes. It would cause a lot of wind. I live on a farm and almost every night I have to go down and nudge the tom turkey off the coop door and it flies up onto the roof. I'm standing underneath it when it does this and even though it's only 2 flaps of it's wings it's a good amount of air that's moving. I forget off the top of my head what the wingspan is for an adult dragon. I think it's like 25' ish? It would move a lot of air.
That's what happens when you wear a helmet your whole life!
My house rules
It's not wind that is doing damage or knocking people prone. The description says: " The dragon beats its wings. Each creature within 10 feet of the dragon must succeed on a DC x Dexterity saving throw or take x bludgeoning damage and be knocked prone. The dragon can then fly up to half its flying speed"
The dragon is trying to bludgeon everything nearby with its wings. The Dex save is to avoid the wings (i.e. there is no Strength save). After the beat-down, the dragon flies pretty much exactly like it normally does on its turn (i.e. no additional effects). If the designers wanted this flying movement to be different, they would've indicated such.
I see nothing wrong with a flying dragon (or even just a wing beat-down) creating a bit of a breeze in regard to Fog Cloud. I mean, it's a DM call, but I think most DM's could agree to it creating a 10 MPH breeze.
For added perspective, the Legendary part is that the dragon gets to do this at the end of someone else's turn. Flying dragons are already pretty tough adversaries as it is, but certainly all adult and older dragons would be even more formidable if they didn't have to wait until their breath weapon recharged to kite their enemies, and instead could fly in and make their entire multi-attack action on their turn, and then fly away without fear of opportunity attacks at the end of the next opponent's turn.
Are you playing creative simulation? or D&D? because if a Legendary Creature gets unwritten features added on because of simulation, than where are the unwritten simulations hindering the dragon or benefiting the players?
There are tons of ways to create more challenge within the rules, when you take away choices players are entitled to by the system because of simulation, then you reduce interaction and player agency, and start telling a story instead of interacting with a role playing game. Is the fighter's thrown sword attack going to clip the dragons wing sending it falling to the ground and causing additional fall damage? Simulates, right?
It's best not to homebrew restrictions on prescribed player actions. Introduce a random Kobold minion who simply heals back some of the dragons health, same result, within the rules.
Isn't role playing just another name for creative simulation?
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Perhaps so, but DnD provides a framework for that simulation, if your going to withdraw players actions whenever your feeling "creative" than prepare to creatively grant them benefits, then as you depart from the game and decide to just make up what happens, you lose the uncertainty and surprise of resolving gameplay through a system with chance.
What is it being suggested here? that a Legendary Action which can be executed on an opponents turn, hit everyone surrounding it, knock them prone, and move... vertically, and instead of just letting the few players who have a melee attack and happen to be in position choose to use their reaction, if it's significant enough to expend, to make an attack at disadvantage? How little does that benefit the gameplay? Is it worth taking away a players entitlement to an action?, possibly disrupting their sense of agency. Of course, great decision making skills like this will never result in a similar occurrence happening over and over again until it sours someone from the game. The point of playing DnD is to have fun, not rationalize penalties out of creativity just because it sounds practical.
As a DM your priority isn't creative simulation, that's just the medium your enjoying, in this case the creative simulation of DnD, the higher priority is having fun, so your decision should be is it making it fun. Unless your players are requesting this behavior, it's a bad idea. Beside, there's enough material to use within the rules to provide for more challenge. There's plenty of times when suspending the rules serves the game, even in challenge, but the default response to taking away players actions for accurate simulation is disapproval, something has to be done to compensate and justify that kind of behavior, and no one but the players subject to those decisions opinion matters on the subject, so coming to the forum and getting approval from ppl who are spectating doesn't amount to anything.
I agree. Everyone having fun is the only thing that truly matters in the end. This is the rules and game mechanics forum, which is why we are digging into the rules and game mechanics.
"Not all those who wander are lost"