I base it mostly on what a person can typically earn in a day without looting dead bodies and the like.
Most discussions place a GP anywhere between $1 and $200, but average at $50. My point though was that gold appears more common in D&D worlds than in our world (which values a GP at about $400), and similarly: BIG-assed gems seem more common in Fantasy, making their exponential value by carat less certain.
Eh, I have said before that someone that understood economics needs to take a look at D&D and its prices and exchanges. Especially for spell components and magic items.
Consider the material component for Heroes' Feast. It's a bowl worth 1000gp but what makes it worth that much? Is it gold? Silver? Incredible craftsmanship? Could you attach an expensive gem to a simple clay bowl and use that? What if you used a bowl crafted by some exquisite long dead artisan? An art object like that might be worth 700gp to one noble but 1500gp for another. Can you use an art object like that with a subjective price? What if you traveled between two cities and in the first city the bowl was only worth 900gp but in the next city it was worth 1200gp? What would happen if you used Suggestion to convince someone that a simply 10gp bowl was worth 1000gp?
Taking too deep a dive into spell components is just not worth it. My rule is to keep it simple (or K.I.S.S. it). Spell casters should be familiar enough with their abilities to 'know' whether this or that component will work or not. Likewise they should know how to make most of the spell components they need given the appropriate materials. Why? Because why not. I understand making sure a player is being diligent enough to keep track of expensive components but how much book keeping are you planning on doing and how much fun would that be?
the material component for Heroes' Feast. It's a bowl worth 1000gp but what makes it worth that much?
The spell states it's "a gem-encrusted bowl worth at least 1,000 gp which the spell consumes". That would seem to indicate that the bowl is specially made for this spell (i.e. not any old 1000gp bowl will do). The nature of the manufacture is up to the DM (and might vary from wizard to wizard). However, it's generally outside the rules, and outside the point of the cost. The point of the cost is to impose a limiting resource.
For my own games: if the PC's were trapped in a dungeon but had 1000gp in gems, clay, and the ability to craft bowls from clay... I'd let them make a bowl to cast the spell. ymmv
They do have, however, a 300 gp diamond that they found elsewhere. The spell states specifically that diamond dust is required for the spell, so my druid wants to know if they can crush the diamond and get dust from it to be used for the spell.
My thought is that no, they can't, because they don't really have tools to break a diamond down to dust, something that would require more than just a standard hammer or axe. Further, breaking the diamond into pieces wouldn't necessarily turn it to dust, at least not wholly, and whatever dust they managed to get wouldn't necessarily be worth the 100 gp they need.
Now that is some cruel DMing right there. Especially the last sentence. Wow!
if the value of the gem is 100GP then as long as players used a mortar and pestle and a hammer to get the job done they get 100GP of dust
or
they can go to a spell shop and for a 20% cut they can have the gem appraised and crushed and get what is left over. in some cases with the right conditions they can get more than 100gp worth.
I always thought that tight material restriction is a bit unnecessary, specially because treasures rarely have what exactly demands. Making all the “conversions” is annoying, I think that transition of selling gems to buy diamonds dust really sounds a bit cumbersome.
So I usually just divide materials in categories, in this case gems, so you could use the spell and 100gp of gems in your inventory would be used.
Seriously, carrying dust of this, dust of that, an exact gem of certain type, a ring made of platinum?, do you know how rare is it, no matter if is only 50gp the problem is to find platinum. In the case of ring, is jewelry, so any precious 50gp ring could be fine.
So, even if maybe for spell descriptions and mysticism side could sound cool, for gameplay is just an obstacle.
so if I get a party member to buy my 1gp diamond off me for 500gp ...... or I move to a part of the world where diamonds are more common or more rare.... for game mechanics.... cut a 500gp diamond in 2 and get 2x 250gp. Crush a 500gp and get 500gp of dust. If 'damaged' diamonds have (logarithmicly) less value then diamond dust (like in the real world) said dust would have almost no value.... so 500gp of diamond dust may require 5 wagons to carry.
so if I get a party member to buy my 1gp diamond off me for 500gp ...... or I move to a part of the world where diamonds are more common or more rare.... for game mechanics.... cut a 500gp diamond in 2 and get 2x 250gp. Crush a 500gp and get 500gp of dust. If 'damaged' diamonds have (logarithmicly) less value then diamond dust (like in the real world) said dust would have almost no value.... so 500gp of diamond dust may require 5 wagons to carry.
The Game Is Not an Economy. The rules of the game aren’t intended to model a realistic economy
Also important to consider is that, for the sake of spell components, many items are considered to have a fixed value. So the same diamond that's worth 300 gp to spells could sell for 5 gp or 1000 gp and that wouldn't change the impact of the magic.
The Game Is Not an Economy. The rules of the game aren’t intended to model a realistic economy
Also important to consider is that, for the sake of spell components, many items are considered to have a fixed value. So the same diamond that's worth 300 gp to spells could sell for 5 gp or 1000 gp and that wouldn't change the impact of the magic.
Note that this is based on lore of D&D.
I agree... that is my point. A 500gp diamond is worth 500gp.....crush it and you have 500gp of diamond dust. If you want to cut it into a 300gp and 200gp diamond, it should be ok. If you have a desperate need for flavor, or are trying put push crafting in your players.... put a (not too sucky) sliding chance of partial failure or enhanced success like previous versions of D&D. ....edit.... find a drug dealer with little ziplok bags and measure out a 5000gp diamond worth of diamond dust into 50x100gp ziploks.... 3 bag for a revivify !!! ;)
Some notes on diamond from the peanut gallery: Diamonds are ne of the most misunderstood of all gems. We misunderstood the term hardness consistently. As a geologist or gemologist uses it it refers only to the object’s resistance to being scratched. Diamonds are ( by this definition) the hardest substance and can scratch everything else while nothing but another diamond can scratch it. HOWEVER, that hardness has nothing to do with being hit by a hammer ( or a rock for that matter). Diamonds have two properties that apply here. First, they are brittle not tough or malleable. That means they shatter when struck or hammered. So getting diamond dust is more a matter of keeping all the flying pieces contained as you make little ones out of bigger ones. The second is that diamond is Cleavable - that is it has internal planes of weakness it prefers to break along. So if you align a straight edge with one of these planes and tap ( moderately hard) on the edge it will cause the diamond to break smoothly along that plane separating into 2 pieces with a smooth surface where they were in contact. So splitting the diamond Int smaller pieces - like splitting a 500 GP diamond into 300 and 200 GP pieces also shouldn’t be that hard ( for a jeweler or gemologist/ lapidist) the big problem with using something like a mortar and pestle is that the diamond pieces will scratch away the mortar and pestle as fast or faster than you can grind the diamond to dust. Better to take a thin leather or cloth bag and hammer the diamond pieces inside until you get the dust.
Anything can happen in a game world, of course :-)
The real life inspired answer is simple: a medieval society didn't have the means to create diamond dust, they didn't have a use for diamond dust (lack of petrified clerics :-)) so why bother? There would be one hypothetical exception: use another diamond to reduce them both by rotating against each other. One could add fine quartz sand as a grinding material that could later been separated in an airflow (blown away). Would it work? Haven't tried ... lack of diamonds :-)
A leather bag pops open on the first blow with a hammer, banging it directly would embed the diamond in the medieval steel and hardly(sic!) do damage. It may break in a lucky hit and the parts get embedded. They only had carbon steel anyway, which isn't that hard, relatively spoken (see: Mohs scale).
Fortunately, we're not in the real world. We're escaping from it while playing DnD, aren't we? So it all rests on the DM's slim shoulders again :-)
Diamond dust has been available ( if in limited supply) since ancient times. It is the ultimate polishing agent. As I said above it’s really not that hard to create. Using either non gem worthy diamonds (bolt) or the flawed sections you have cleaved away while turning a large diamond with flaws into a number of smaller flawless gem worthy diamonds, you hammer ( not grind) them down then seperate them into size fractions with sieves and cheesecloth. When I was doing lapidary work many years ago my final polish was 100,000 grit diamond ( dust that passed through a sieve with 100,000 holes/square inch) . All polishing actually consists of is scratching the surface with smaller and smaller grains until the scratches are small enough that light waves treat the surface as smooth and not rough.
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Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
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Most discussions place a GP anywhere between $1 and $200, but average at $50. My point though was that gold appears more common in D&D worlds than in our world (which values a GP at about $400), and similarly: BIG-assed gems seem more common in Fantasy, making their exponential value by carat less certain.
Eh, I have said before that someone that understood economics needs to take a look at D&D and its prices and exchanges. Especially for spell components and magic items.
Consider the material component for Heroes' Feast. It's a bowl worth 1000gp but what makes it worth that much? Is it gold? Silver? Incredible craftsmanship? Could you attach an expensive gem to a simple clay bowl and use that? What if you used a bowl crafted by some exquisite long dead artisan? An art object like that might be worth 700gp to one noble but 1500gp for another. Can you use an art object like that with a subjective price? What if you traveled between two cities and in the first city the bowl was only worth 900gp but in the next city it was worth 1200gp? What would happen if you used Suggestion to convince someone that a simply 10gp bowl was worth 1000gp?
Taking too deep a dive into spell components is just not worth it. My rule is to keep it simple (or K.I.S.S. it). Spell casters should be familiar enough with their abilities to 'know' whether this or that component will work or not. Likewise they should know how to make most of the spell components they need given the appropriate materials. Why? Because why not. I understand making sure a player is being diligent enough to keep track of expensive components but how much book keeping are you planning on doing and how much fun would that be?
Current Characters I am playing: Dr Konstantin van Wulf | Taegen Willowrun | Mad Magnar
Check out my homebrew: Items | Monsters | Spells | Subclasses | Feats
The spell states it's "a gem-encrusted bowl worth at least 1,000 gp which the spell consumes". That would seem to indicate that the bowl is specially made for this spell (i.e. not any old 1000gp bowl will do). The nature of the manufacture is up to the DM (and might vary from wizard to wizard). However, it's generally outside the rules, and outside the point of the cost. The point of the cost is to impose a limiting resource.
For my own games: if the PC's were trapped in a dungeon but had 1000gp in gems, clay, and the ability to craft bowls from clay... I'd let them make a bowl to cast the spell. ymmv
Now that is some cruel DMing right there. Especially the last sentence. Wow!
I kept it simple in my game
if the value of the gem is 100GP then as long as players used a mortar and pestle and a hammer to get the job done they get 100GP of dust
or
they can go to a spell shop and for a 20% cut they can have the gem appraised and crushed and get what is left over. in some cases with the right conditions they can get more than 100gp worth.
I always thought that tight material restriction is a bit unnecessary, specially because treasures rarely have what exactly demands. Making all the “conversions” is annoying, I think that transition of selling gems to buy diamonds dust really sounds a bit cumbersome.
So I usually just divide materials in categories, in this case gems, so you could use the spell and 100gp of gems in your inventory would be used.
Seriously, carrying dust of this, dust of that, an exact gem of certain type, a ring made of platinum?, do you know how rare is it, no matter if is only 50gp the problem is to find platinum. In the case of ring, is jewelry, so any precious 50gp ring could be fine.
So, even if maybe for spell descriptions and mysticism side could sound cool, for gameplay is just an obstacle.
so if I get a party member to buy my 1gp diamond off me for 500gp ...... or I move to a part of the world where diamonds are more common or more rare.... for game mechanics.... cut a 500gp diamond in 2 and get 2x 250gp. Crush a 500gp and get 500gp of dust. If 'damaged' diamonds have (logarithmicly) less value then diamond dust (like in the real world) said dust would have almost no value.... so 500gp of diamond dust may require 5 wagons to carry.
The Game Is Not an Economy. The rules of the game aren’t intended to model a realistic economy
Also important to consider is that, for the sake of spell components, many items are considered to have a fixed value. So the same diamond that's worth 300 gp to spells could sell for 5 gp or 1000 gp and that wouldn't change the impact of the magic.
Note that this is based on lore of D&D.
The Game Is Not an Economy. The rules of the game aren’t intended to model a realistic economy
Also important to consider is that, for the sake of spell components, many items are considered to have a fixed value. So the same diamond that's worth 300 gp to spells could sell for 5 gp or 1000 gp and that wouldn't change the impact of the magic.
Note that this is based on lore of D&D.
I agree... that is my point. A 500gp diamond is worth 500gp.....crush it and you have 500gp of diamond dust. If you want to cut it into a 300gp and 200gp diamond, it should be ok. If you have a desperate need for flavor, or are trying put push crafting in your players.... put a (not too sucky) sliding chance of partial failure or enhanced success like previous versions of D&D. ....edit.... find a drug dealer with little ziplok bags and measure out a 5000gp diamond worth of diamond dust into 50x100gp ziploks.... 3 bag for a revivify !!! ;)
Some notes on diamond from the peanut gallery:
Diamonds are ne of the most misunderstood of all gems. We misunderstood the term hardness consistently. As a geologist or gemologist uses it it refers only to the object’s resistance to being scratched. Diamonds are ( by this definition) the hardest substance and can scratch everything else while nothing but another diamond can scratch it. HOWEVER, that hardness has nothing to do with being hit by a hammer ( or a rock for that matter). Diamonds have two properties that apply here. First, they are brittle not tough or malleable. That means they shatter when struck or hammered. So getting diamond dust is more a matter of keeping all the flying pieces contained as you make little ones out of bigger ones. The second is that diamond is Cleavable - that is it has internal planes of weakness it prefers to break along. So if you align a straight edge with one of these planes and tap ( moderately hard) on the edge it will cause the diamond to break smoothly along that plane separating into 2 pieces with a smooth surface where they were in contact. So splitting the diamond Int smaller pieces - like splitting a 500 GP diamond into 300 and 200 GP pieces also shouldn’t be that hard ( for a jeweler or gemologist/ lapidist) the big problem with using something like a mortar and pestle is that the diamond pieces will scratch away the mortar and pestle as fast or faster than you can grind the diamond to dust. Better to take a thin leather or cloth bag and hammer the diamond pieces inside until you get the dust.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Anything can happen in a game world, of course :-)
The real life inspired answer is simple: a medieval society didn't have the means to create diamond dust, they didn't have a use for diamond dust (lack of petrified clerics :-)) so why bother?
There would be one hypothetical exception: use another diamond to reduce them both by rotating against each other. One could add fine quartz sand as a grinding material that could later been separated in an airflow (blown away). Would it work? Haven't tried ... lack of diamonds :-)
A leather bag pops open on the first blow with a hammer, banging it directly would embed the diamond in the medieval steel and hardly(sic!) do damage. It may break in a lucky hit and the parts get embedded. They only had carbon steel anyway, which isn't that hard, relatively spoken (see: Mohs scale).
Fortunately, we're not in the real world. We're escaping from it while playing DnD, aren't we? So it all rests on the DM's slim shoulders again :-)
Diamond dust has been available ( if in limited supply) since ancient times. It is the ultimate polishing agent. As I said above it’s really not that hard to create. Using either non gem worthy diamonds (bolt) or the flawed sections you have cleaved away while turning a large diamond with flaws into a number of smaller flawless gem worthy diamonds, you hammer ( not grind) them down then seperate them into size fractions with sieves and cheesecloth. When I was doing lapidary work many years ago my final polish was 100,000 grit diamond ( dust that passed through a sieve with 100,000 holes/square inch) . All polishing actually consists of is scratching the surface with smaller and smaller grains until the scratches are small enough that light waves treat the surface as smooth and not rough.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.