There's no "could be".. it is full cover. Cover is a physical obstruction, not a visual one. Visual would be obscurement, and WoF does not obscure anything.
This has been debated many times with no clear solution in RAW.
HB 196 "A target has total cover if it is completely concealed by an obstacle."
RAW, that is the defintion of total cover. Yes, it may not feel completely consistent with the description of 1/2 and 3/4 cover. Yes the definition does depend on exactly what "concealed" means. However, concealed is a word used to describe something that blocks both a physical path and vision. A window does not conceal the items behind the window. That is common usage for the word conceal.
If the RAW defintion of total cover from the PHB is correct then a Wall of Force does not provide total cover because it does not completely conceal the target. It does completely physically block the target but does not conceal it.
As a result, how Wall of Force in particular is interpreted in any particular game is completely up to the DM. I have seen it played well and consistently both ways. However, your statement "There's no "could be".. it is full cover." should be "IN MY GAME, There's no "could be".. it is full cover."
... and leave the arguing about what is the "correct" interpretation (there is no answer) to the many other threads on the topic.
First of all, there is a ruling in Sage Advice that a closed window does actually block targeting, even though you can see through the window. However, in 5e Wall of Force does not seem to block energy or non-physical spells. Unlike in prior versions, it seems like in 5e you could fireball or lightning bolt through it, so why not counterspell?.
It seems per the Sage Advice that the RAI is that the spell provides total cover and you can’t do these things...unless the spell bypasses cover (Sacred Flame comes to mind). I still say the spell could have mentioned providing cover since it doesn’t conceal in the traditional sense of blocking sight, but ok.
now, since that is different from how I have played it, how do you DM this? Do you allow the spell to be cast and then fail? Or do you stop the spell from being cast and tell them you can’t cast it? I ask because Sense the wall is invisible creatures may not know it’s there when they try, and it seems like a meta game to just tell the player “you can’t target that creature” without also giving away the fact that it’s there
Teleport doesn’t target the destination, it targets the things being teleported, so the Wall of Force obviously doesn’t interfere. That’s not arbitrary, that’s the rules interacting as intended.
What makes you think Wall of Force doesn’t stop energy? The spell text says quite clearly that nothing can physically pass through the barrier. It makes no exception for energy.
Energy absolutely is physical. “Physical” does not mean “matter.”
Nothing about the spell says the inside can’t be affected. It says nothing can physically pass through the wall. Teleportation is not passing through. If you think “following the rules” is arbitrary, I really don’t know what to tell you.
Energy absolutely is physical. “Physical” does not mean “matter.”
Nothing about the spell says the inside can’t be affected. It says nothing can physically pass through the wall. Teleportation is not passing through. If you think “following the rules” is arbitrary, I really don’t know what to tell you.
Really... so if someone or something has Physical resistance in game, it would mean resistance to everything? And fireballs and lightning bolts have impact components in your world?
You also did not respond to my point regarding light.
No one has "physical resistance" in this game. Resistance is to particular damage types, none of which is "physical," or to damage from particular sources, like "non-magical." And yes, fireballs and lightning bolts absolutely have impact in my world, and in the real world, and in most people's worlds, and, by your own standards, they should in your world, because not only are they physical, but they're also actually matter.
Light is a non-productive topic. Most people do not think of vision in terms of the physical processes involved, and neither does the game, and this annoys me. I've observed this in other posts here. That said, it's easy enough to take the mention of the wall's invisibility as a specific exception to the general "nothing can physically pass through the wall."
There's no "could be".. it is full cover. Cover is a physical obstruction, not a visual one. Visual would be obscurement, and WoF does not obscure anything.
This has been debated many times with no clear solution in RAW.
HB 196 "A target has total cover if it is completely concealed by an obstacle."
RAW, that is the defintion of total cover. Yes, it may not feel completely consistent with the description of 1/2 and 3/4 cover. Yes the definition does depend on exactly what "concealed" means. However, concealed is a word used to describe something that blocks both a physical path and vision. A window does not conceal the items behind the window. That is common usage for the word conceal.
If the RAW defintion of total cover from the PHB is correct then a Wall of Force does not provide total cover because it does not completely conceal the target. It does completely physically block the target but does not conceal it.
The RAW definition of total cover is correct. Your interpretation of total cover is not correct. Your position is based on a false premise.
Cover
Walls, trees, creatures, and other obstacles can provide cover during combat, making a target more difficult to harm. A target can benefit from cover only when an attack or other effect originates on the opposite side of the cover.
There are three degrees of cover. If a target is behind multiple sources of cover, only the most protective degree of cover applies; the degrees aren't added together. For example, if a target is behind a creature that gives half cover and a tree trunk that gives three-quarters cover, the target has three-quarters cover.
Cover--all types of cover--is defined for D&D5e as physical protection, not visual obscurement.
I will say again: there's no "could be".. it is full cover. Cover is a physical obstruction, not a visual one. Visual would be obscurement, and WoF does not obscure anything.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Sorry, "force component"? What are you even talking about? That's not relevant to any part of this conversation.
I never said light doesn't count "simply because it does not." I said it doesn't count because the spell description specifically says that the wall is invisible.
Sorry, "force component"? What are you even talking about? That's not relevant to any part of this conversation.
I never said light doesn't count "simply because it does not." I said it doesn't count because the spell description specifically says that the wall is invisible.
Your words : "And yes, fireballs and lightning bolts absolutely have impact in my world, and in the real world, and in most people's worlds"
I have no idea what point you think you're making. The physical impact of a fireball or lightning bolt has absolutely nothing to do with nonexistent knock-back rules or whatever. A longsword attack doesn't have to knock anybody back to be physical.
Hey, I know we’ve all gotten used to a more argumentative tone of late in these forums, but you know who isn’t here. May I suggest someone tweet Jeremy Crawford at least to see what they say?
I would like to throw this into the mix... Given the tweet by Jeremy Crawford that total cover is granted by WoF. WoF is invisible. You can see through it. This means the WoF does not stop light, else it would not be invisible.
Sunbeam is target=self and lets you shot high intensity beams of light out for a minute(c). 60x5 line of light.
So target self means it can be cast it for sure. A line spell the target is really just an angle from the caster. The caster never needs to "target" across the WoF. So the only real question is what happens when a beam of light hits the WoF?
I would like to throw this into the mix... Given the tweet by Jeremy Crawford that total cover is granted by WoF. WoF is invisible. You can see through it. This means the WoF does not stop light, else it would not be invisible.
Sunbeam is target=self and lets you shot high intensity beams of light out for a minute(c). 60x5 line of light.
So target self means it can be cast it for sure. A line spell the target is really just an angle from the caster. The caster never needs to "target" across the WoF. So the only real question is what happens when a beam of light hits the WoF?
Simple. It stops. The spell originates from you, and affects creatures in the line. Creatures/objects/areas that are affected by a spell are also targets of the spell. Targets on the opposite side of a WoF are incapable of being affected by the spell.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
I would like to throw this into the mix... Given the tweet by Jeremy Crawford that total cover is granted by WoF. WoF is invisible. You can see through it. This means the WoF does not stop light, else it would not be invisible.
Sunbeam is target=self and lets you shot high intensity beams of light out for a minute(c). 60x5 line of light.
So target self means it can be cast it for sure. A line spell the target is really just an angle from the caster. The caster never needs to "target" across the WoF. So the only real question is what happens when a beam of light hits the WoF?
Simple. It stops. The spell originates from you, and affects creatures in the line. Creatures/objects/areas that are affected by a spell are also targets of the spell. Targets on the opposite side of a WoF are incapable of being affected by the spell.
And your basis for that ruling is what, exactly? Remember, a teleport destination is not a target. It is merely a destination. The spell does not actually target through the wall. So why would Sunbeam?
Spells such as burning hands and cone of cold cover an area, allowing them to affect multiple creatures at once.
A spell's description specifies its area of effect, which typically has one of five different shapes: cone, cube, cylinder, line, or sphere. Every area of effect has a point of origin, a location from which the spell's energy erupts. The rules for each shape specify how you position its point of origin. Typically, a point of origin is a point in space, but some spells have an area whose origin is a creature or an object.
A spell's effect expands in straight lines from the point of origin. If no unblocked straight line extends from the point of origin to a location within the area of effect, that location isn't included in the spell's area. To block one of these imaginary lines, an obstruction must provide total cover, as explained in chapter 9.
WoF grants total cover. The spell effect stops at the wall.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
I would like to throw this into the mix... Given the tweet by Jeremy Crawford that total cover is granted by WoF. WoF is invisible. You can see through it. This means the WoF does not stop light, else it would not be invisible.
Sunbeam is target=self and lets you shot high intensity beams of light out for a minute(c). 60x5 line of light.
So target self means it can be cast it for sure. A line spell the target is really just an angle from the caster. The caster never needs to "target" across the WoF. So the only real question is what happens when a beam of light hits the WoF?
Simple. It stops. The spell originates from you, and affects creatures in the line. Creatures/objects/areas that are affected by a spell are also targets of the spell. Targets on the opposite side of a WoF are incapable of being affected by the spell.
And your basis for that ruling is what, exactly? Remember, a teleport destination is not a target. It is merely a destination. The spell does not actually target through the wall. So why would Sunbeam?
Sunbeam would have to target through the wall to affect creatures on the other side of it. That seems fairly obvious.
Any given spell's target(s) are the creatures/objects/areas affected by the spell. As it has been stated multiple times, the teleportation spells that we know of target only the caster because only the caster is affected by it. The spell does not effect terrain, and is simply a destination, as you already know.
This is not the case for spells which explicitly affect the area(s) and whatever creatures/objects may be in there. Sunbeam has explicit effects for creatures within the area; they are also targets of the spell. Wall of Force prevents the spell from passing beyond its border.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Anyone forced to make the saving throw is a target of the spell; that's what target means. But there is actually some debate on that point, especially re: how it impacts Twinned Spell, so let's say instead it targets the area that the line AoE fills, which is also sensible; in that case as well, since you can't target beyond the wall, the line AoE must stop at the wall.
Any given spell's target(s) are the creatures/objects/areas affected by the spell. As it has been stated multiple times, the teleportation spells that we know of target only the caster because only the caster is affected by it. The spell does not effect terrain, and is simply a destination, as you already know.
This is not the case for spells which explicitly affect the area(s) and whatever creatures/objects may be in there. Sunbeam has explicit effects for creatures within the area; they are also targets of the spell. Wall of Force prevents the spell from passing beyond its border.
Before casting, you are not there. After casting, you are there. You have a strange definition of 'not affected.' If there happened to be a trap door at your destination, you trigger it since your weight is on it. Affected. You are placing a weight (you) on that plot of ground, which is rather a lot more physical than shining a beam of sunlight on it.
The ground isn't being affected by the spell. It's being affected by your mass. The contorted logic you're trying to employ would say that the mother of the bandit you killed with a Firebolt is also a target of the spell because she's sad about (read: affected by) her kid's death, which was caused by the spell.
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Wall of Force is more than a physical barrier. In older editions Force extended into the ethereal. It’s more than just a Star Trek style force field.
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This has been debated many times with no clear solution in RAW.
HB 196 "A target has total cover if it is completely concealed by an obstacle."
RAW, that is the defintion of total cover. Yes, it may not feel completely consistent with the description of 1/2 and 3/4 cover. Yes the definition does depend on exactly what "concealed" means. However, concealed is a word used to describe something that blocks both a physical path and vision. A window does not conceal the items behind the window. That is common usage for the word conceal.
If the RAW defintion of total cover from the PHB is correct then a Wall of Force does not provide total cover because it does not completely conceal the target. It does completely physically block the target but does not conceal it.
As a result, how Wall of Force in particular is interpreted in any particular game is completely up to the DM. I have seen it played well and consistently both ways. However, your statement "There's no "could be".. it is full cover." should be "IN MY GAME, There's no "could be".. it is full cover."
... and leave the arguing about what is the "correct" interpretation (there is no answer) to the many other threads on the topic.
Same problem with a target behind 1" of bulletproof glass. Perfectly visible, but in total cover.
D&D5e also does not have rules to just shoot through thin full cover.
I would just rule it on the spot as DM.
See post on the actual spell, at https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/wall-of-force?comment=7 where reference is made to answers from Jeremy Crawford.
Maybe https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/04/09/targeting-spellsclear-path-can-i-target-across-wall-of-force/ will help
It seems per the Sage Advice that the RAI is that the spell provides total cover and you can’t do these things...unless the spell bypasses cover (Sacred Flame comes to mind). I still say the spell could have mentioned providing cover since it doesn’t conceal in the traditional sense of blocking sight, but ok.
now, since that is different from how I have played it, how do you DM this? Do you allow the spell to be cast and then fail? Or do you stop the spell from being cast and tell them you can’t cast it? I ask because Sense the wall is invisible creatures may not know it’s there when they try, and it seems like a meta game to just tell the player “you can’t target that creature” without also giving away the fact that it’s there
Teleport doesn’t target the destination, it targets the things being teleported, so the Wall of Force obviously doesn’t interfere. That’s not arbitrary, that’s the rules interacting as intended.
What makes you think Wall of Force doesn’t stop energy? The spell text says quite clearly that nothing can physically pass through the barrier. It makes no exception for energy.
Energy absolutely is physical. “Physical” does not mean “matter.”
Nothing about the spell says the inside can’t be affected. It says nothing can physically pass through the wall. Teleportation is not passing through. If you think “following the rules” is arbitrary, I really don’t know what to tell you.
No one has "physical resistance" in this game. Resistance is to particular damage types, none of which is "physical," or to damage from particular sources, like "non-magical." And yes, fireballs and lightning bolts absolutely have impact in my world, and in the real world, and in most people's worlds, and, by your own standards, they should in your world, because not only are they physical, but they're also actually matter.
Light is a non-productive topic. Most people do not think of vision in terms of the physical processes involved, and neither does the game, and this annoys me. I've observed this in other posts here. That said, it's easy enough to take the mention of the wall's invisibility as a specific exception to the general "nothing can physically pass through the wall."
The RAW definition of total cover is correct. Your interpretation of total cover is not correct. Your position is based on a false premise.
Cover--all types of cover--is defined for D&D5e as physical protection, not visual obscurement.
I will say again: there's no "could be".. it is full cover. Cover is a physical obstruction, not a visual one. Visual would be obscurement, and WoF does not obscure anything.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Sorry, "force component"? What are you even talking about? That's not relevant to any part of this conversation.
I never said light doesn't count "simply because it does not." I said it doesn't count because the spell description specifically says that the wall is invisible.
I have no idea what point you think you're making. The physical impact of a fireball or lightning bolt has absolutely nothing to do with nonexistent knock-back rules or whatever. A longsword attack doesn't have to knock anybody back to be physical.
Hey, I know we’ve all gotten used to a more argumentative tone of late in these forums, but you know who isn’t here. May I suggest someone tweet Jeremy Crawford at least to see what they say?
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Bingo.
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I would like to throw this into the mix... Given the tweet by Jeremy Crawford that total cover is granted by WoF. WoF is invisible. You can see through it. This means the WoF does not stop light, else it would not be invisible.
Now see the spell Sunbeam: https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/sunbeam
Sunbeam is target=self and lets you shot high intensity beams of light out for a minute(c). 60x5 line of light.
So target self means it can be cast it for sure. A line spell the target is really just an angle from the caster. The caster never needs to "target" across the WoF. So the only real question is what happens when a beam of light hits the WoF?
Simple. It stops. The spell originates from you, and affects creatures in the line. Creatures/objects/areas that are affected by a spell are also targets of the spell. Targets on the opposite side of a WoF are incapable of being affected by the spell.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
The PHB.
WoF grants total cover. The spell effect stops at the wall.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Sunbeam would have to target through the wall to affect creatures on the other side of it. That seems fairly obvious.
Any given spell's target(s) are the creatures/objects/areas affected by the spell. As it has been stated multiple times, the teleportation spells that we know of target only the caster because only the caster is affected by it. The spell does not effect terrain, and is simply a destination, as you already know.
This is not the case for spells which explicitly affect the area(s) and whatever creatures/objects may be in there. Sunbeam has explicit effects for creatures within the area; they are also targets of the spell. Wall of Force prevents the spell from passing beyond its border.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Anyone forced to make the saving throw is a target of the spell; that's what target means. But there is actually some debate on that point, especially re: how it impacts Twinned Spell, so let's say instead it targets the area that the line AoE fills, which is also sensible; in that case as well, since you can't target beyond the wall, the line AoE must stop at the wall.
The ground isn't being affected by the spell. It's being affected by your mass. The contorted logic you're trying to employ would say that the mother of the bandit you killed with a Firebolt is also a target of the spell because she's sad about (read: affected by) her kid's death, which was caused by the spell.