Grapple Rule For Monsters- A creature grappled by the monster CAN use its action to try to escape. To do so, it MUST succeed on a Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check against the escape DC in the monster's stat block. If no escape DC is given, assume the DC is 10 + the monster's Strength (Athletics) modifier. So if you follow this rule, you MUST make the Str/Dex to escape first,cast the trigger spell and then the bonus TM-fly away. The lead designer contradicted his own rules for monsters in his twitter statement. There is no exception to this rule.
The rule you are quoting is predicated on the assumption that you are using your action purely for the purpose of attempting to escape the grapple. You do not have to use your action for this. You are not prevented from casting a spell while Grappled.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Note that this is an inductive argument. I am aware that there are uncertainties which may completely alter the narrative. I am not saying this is the definitive argument; only a strong argument given the information at hand.
Web is straight-forward: not in the web; not restrained. I think Entangle is too. The spell targets a discrete area, only affects the ground in that area, and does not move. If you are removed from the area of effect, you should no longer be Restrained.
We already know this just from the general rules & spell description, so the final line would be effectively stating the obvious. WoTC isn't in the habit of wasting ink on text that is completely meaningless, so what would be the purpose of including that line? Exactly the type of situation we've been talking about with Tempestuous Magic: forced movement away from the source of Restrained. The implication then is, unless the source of the effect travels with the affected creature, forced movement breaks the Restrained condition. In this case, we know the effect does not travel, so using Tempestuous Magic to fly outside of the affected area would break the Restrained condition.
We can keep arguing about this for hours, but the rules for TempestM were clearly not written with careful thought to interaction with these spells and similar abilities, which cause the Restrained rather than the Grappled condition.
Here is how I would rule as a DM: TempestM does grant the Sorcerer aerial movement up to 10 feet. The "up to" part is crucial. It could well be less. Consider this: If a clumsy or blinded Sorc stumbles into a steel bear trap that securely has one end pounded into firm ground, does an ability by TempestM just let the Sorcerer fly away? Logically, no (unless the caster's spell was a direct damage spell that destroys the tether). The TempestM does not confer the ability to make an automatic STR check or anything of the sort. Spells or creature abilities that use the Restrained condition - not the Grappled condition - that have very specific ability check methods or damage-to-destroy-agent-of-restraint methods therefore would still Restrain the caster. So I would rule that the the Sorcerer can get airborne, but has to remain within 4 feet of the snare/webbing/etc. unless the agent of restraint allows more movement (relevant if we consider certain monster abilities). This way, the basis for the TempestM ability still occurs but are limited by the rules Re: Restrained condition to some degree.
The op was in reference to using TM to escape a grapple ie. breaking the condition, so of course I defined the action as using it in such a way. TM has already been defined indirectly as an auto-escape for a sorcerer by the lead designer. No chance at failure. But is that realistic? Nope. Even Thunder has a chance at failure via the save. The next criticism is speed. The PC is going from 0 to 10 feet. That is by definition speed and therefore movement in the PHB In fact it is a bonus action form of movement. But that isn't the core of the issue.
That is why I added the conditional DM options for the trigger spells to bring balance to the force whether fly to escape is being used or not. I know you can cast while grappled is in the rules. I disagree with the mechanics and the concept of grappling as applied to casting hence the DM options for casting the trigger spell. My options don't disallow the fly away but does make it difficult and not an auto-escape without a roll. As I said about Thunder, even that spell has a chance at failure to escape.
A Sorce by definition can never be grappled by anything as long as they have a spell and the ability to cast it. Now can you imagine a Sorce trying to cast a spell during this?? LOL
The op was in reference to using TM to escape a grapple ie. breaking the condition, so of course I defined the action as using it in such a way. TM has already been defined indirectly as an auto-escape for a sorcerer by the lead designer. No chance at failure. But is that realistic? Nope. Even Thunder has a chance at failure via the save. The next criticism, speed.
That is why I added the conditional DM options for the trigger spells to bring balance to the force whether fly to escape is being used or not. I know you can cast while grappled is in the rules. I disagree with the mechanics and the concept of grappling as applied to casting hence the DM options for casting the trigger spell. My options don't disallow the fly away but does make it difficult and not an auto-escape without a roll. As I said about Thunder, even that spell has a chance at failure to escape.
A Sorce by definition can never be grappled by anything as long as they have a spell and the ability to cast it. Now can you imagine a Sorce trying to cast a spell during this?? LOL
The Grappled condition in 5e just means that one creature is holding onto another creature. This could be by the clothes, by a limb or something else. There are currently no grapple rules that take into account things like half Nelsons and choke-holds. You could well make the argument that there should be expanded rules about that, but that should go in the Homebrew or General Discussion parts of the forum, not the Rules & Mechanics part.
Note that this is an inductive argument. I am aware that there are uncertainties which may completely alter the narrative. I am not saying this is the definitive argument; only a strong argument given the information at hand.
Web is straight-forward: not in the web; not restrained. I think Entangle is too. The spell targets a discrete area, only affects the ground in that area, and does not move. If you are removed from the area of effect, you should no longer be Restrained.
We already know this just from the general rules & spell description, so the final line would be effectively stating the obvious. WoTC isn't in the habit of wasting ink on text that is completely meaningless, so what would be the purpose of including that line? Exactly the type of situation we've been talking about with Tempestuous Magic: forced movement away from the source of Restrained. The implication then is, unless the source of the effect travels with the affected creature, forced movement breaks the Restrained condition. In this case, we know the effect does not travel, so using Tempestuous Magic to fly outside of the affected area would break the Restrained condition.
We can keep arguing about this for hours, but the rules for TempestM were clearly not written with careful thought to interaction with these spells and similar abilities, which cause the Restrained rather than the Grappled condition.
Here is how I would rule as a DM: TempestM does grant the Sorcerer aerial movement up to 10 feet. The "up to" part is crucial. It could well be less. Consider this: If a clumsy or blinded Sorc stumbles into a steel bear trap that securely has one end pounded into firm ground, does an ability by TempestM just let the Sorcerer fly away? Logically, no (unless the caster's spell was a direct damage spell that destroys the tether). The TempestM does not confer the ability to make an automatic STR check or anything of the sort. Spells or creature abilities that use the Restrained condition - not the Grappled condition - that have very specific ability check methods or damage-to-destroy-agent-of-restraint methods therefore would still Restrain the caster. So I would rule that the the Sorcerer can get airborne, but has to remain within 4 feet of the snare/webbing/etc. unless the agent of restraint allows more movement (relevant if we consider certain monster abilities). This way, the basis for the TempestM ability still occurs but are limited by the rules Re: Restrained condition to some degree.
Sure, that's absolutely reasonable, and it can be accounted for in the "source of effect traveling" conditional (source/impossibility of effect traveling?). If a player is restrained (by anything) while also inside a metal box, TM isn't going to let them pass through to the other side of the box no matter how much movement it grants; they'd need an actual teleport. Conversely, I'd let a player restrained by a bear trap, manacles, rope, etc to be freed from it by TM.
"The gust of elemental air applies just enough pressure to the trap's jaws for you to slip your leg free."
"The forceful gust of air causes the chain tether to be ripped free from the ground, and it is now trailing from your ankle."
If the power of this ability is sufficient to physically cause a creature of any size to be lifted in the air and moved up to 10 feet, it can certainly do the same to almost any physical restraint that I can think of.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
The op was in reference to using TM to escape a grapple ie. breaking the condition, so of course I defined the action as using it in such a way. TM has already been defined indirectly as an auto-escape for a sorcerer by the lead designer. No chance at failure. But is that realistic? Nope. Even Thunder has a chance at failure via the save. The next criticism is speed. The PC is going from 0 to 10 feet. That is by definition speed and therefore movement in the PHB In fact it is a bonus action form of movement. But that isn't the core of the issue.
Completely incorrect. You are not seeing the point. You do not apply the rules of "breaking a grapple" to the Sorcerer Class Feature: Tempestuous Magic.
"Breaking a grapple" is, in-and-of itself, a completely distinct action. You can use your action, on your turn, to attempt breaking free of a grapple with a successful Athletics or Acrobatics check. That is an option for how to use your action; one option of how to break a grapple. It is not the only way, nor is it the mandatory way.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
No, DxJxC, the Web spell specifies that there are three ways to end being restrained: A) successful STR check; B) fire to destroy the Web; C) spell ended by caster, voluntarily or involuntarily (by regular spellcasting rules inference). It says nothing about movement, magical or otherwise, being able to end the restrained condition.
Entangle: STR check.
Snare: DEX saving throw or Arcana check.
If the rule text means what it means, movement away from the web, the entangling roots, or the trap from the Snare would be impossible unless the DM rules there is some minor wiggle room, but the Sorc is still very much restrained.
I'm fine with the ruling that the restraints prevent you from moving away when they specifically mention being anchored in place. I would make the same call if I were DM.
As for Web, this line: "On a failed save, the creature is restrainedas long as it remains in the webs or until it breaks free," [emphasis mine] certainly seems to indicate that you can be freed from the web's via movement.
"Remains in the webs" just means that the webs continue to restrain the creature caught in them. The spell text then follows by saying that a successful STR check frees the creature. Then, in the next paragraph, fire destroys the webbing. Either one would cause the creature to no longer "remain in the web". The spell mentions nothing about movement in and of itself causing the trapped creature to be freed.
"The gust of elemental air applies just enough pressure to the trap's jaws for you to slip your leg free."
"The forceful gust of air causes the chain tether to be ripped free from the ground, and it is now trailing from your ankle."
If the power of this ability is sufficient to physically cause a creature of any size to be lifted in the air and moved up to 10 feet, it can certainly do the same to almost any physical restraint that I can think of.
How in the world would a gust of elemental air release pressure from the trap's jaws? This isn't an Air Elemental we're talking about. As for air causing the chain tether to be ripped from the ground, that could be reasonable depending on the strength of the chain and what it had been tethered to in the first place. Note, though, that in this case, the trap would still be attached and could become another thing to be grabbed onto by an opposing character or cause difficulty with normal movement. That, too, would be the DM's call.
In any situation where Tempestuous Magic would lead to a rules conflict, any rule that causes forced movement would've resulted in the same conundrum. You run into the exact same problem if someone uses Repelling Blast on a creature trapped in Web, for example. At the end of the day the rules can't easily account for non-teleportation movement that's unrelated to a creature's speed.
To be clear, while I'm firmly in the "RAW, Tempestuous Magic breaks grapples" camp, I also think that's largely an accidental feature.
Full text of the Web spell (since evidently people are choosing to selectively quote only portions of text and interpret from those small portions):
The text that I bolded for you says exactly how to break free from the webbing. Movement is not included here. Since this is a Restrained and not a Grappled condition, the Sorc is still Restrained no matter if TempestM happens or not.
You conjure a mass of thick, sticky webbing at a point of your choice within range. The webs fill a 20-foot cube from that point for the Duration. The webs are difficult terrain and lightly obscure their area.
If the webs aren't anchored between two solid masses (such as walls or trees) or layered across a floor, wall, or ceiling, the conjured web collapses on itself, and the spell ends at the start of your next turn. Webs layered over a flat surface have a depth of 5 feet.
Each creature that starts its turn in the webs or that enters them during its turn must make a Dexterity saving throw. On a failed save, the creature is Restrained as long as it remains in the webs or until it breaks free.
A creature Restrained by the webs can use its Actions to make a Strength check against your spell save DC. If it succeeds, it is no longer Restrained.
The webs are flammable. Any 5-foot cube of webs exposed to fire burns away in 1 round, dealing 2d4 fire damage to any creature that starts its turn in the fire.
All I can say at this point, is see post #14, wherein it's pretty clear that "Restrained" functions differently from "Grappled" as per the basic rules. Unless you're going to argue that RAW isn't RAW.
All I can say at this point, is see post #14, wherein it's pretty clear that "Restrained" functions differently from "Grappled" as per the basic rules. Unless you're going to argue that RAW isn't RAW.
You are correct. Restrained is not the same as grappled. Grappled specifically has a clause that says it is ended by moving out of range. And web has a clause that says its effect ends if you move out of range. These are the rules as they are written.
Well, you and I just have to disagree then on how to interpret the wording of a spell. As I DM, I would rule that Web is basically like super-duper glue applied to multiple areas of a person's body sticking it to the wall/floor and that a gust of wind by itself would not be sufficient to dislodge a Medium sized creature from that unless it was hurricane level (and I would probably roll randomly in that case for damage to the creature's clothing/hair/flesh from being pulled so violently away from the surface it was previously attached to). As DM, you can interpret or change the rules as you see fit.
We actually are! The wind produces by TM is literally Elemental air. Whether that's produced directly from an Air Elemental or conjured from the Elemental Plane of Air is negligible. I just find that to be an interesting bit of fluff.
a gust of wind by itself would not be sufficient to dislodge a Medium sized creature from that unless it was hurricane level
Funny thing: the minimum conditions to lift/propel someone is going to vary based on the vector that the wind is blowing, atmospheric conditions, surface area impacted, blah blah etc... but to propel someone of ~150 lbs off the ground is going to need a wind speed of at least 100 mph. Hurricane level winds begin at 73 mph!
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Well, then as DM, I would rule that the wind ripping your character away from anything vaguely resembling a hunting trap, including certain spells, would also deal the Sorcerer 1d4 points of damage and/or damage some article of clothing so as to become unusable.
Totally off base. You are not seeing the point. You don't have any significant bearing the guidelines of "breaking a hook" to the Sorcerer Class Feature: Tempestuous Magic.
"Breaking a hook" is, all by itself, a totally particular activity. You can utilize your activity, on your turn, to endeavor breaking liberated from a think about an effective Athletics or Acrobatics check. That is a possibility for how to utilize your activity; one choice of how to break a hook. It isn't the main way, nor is it the required way.
In the book it is stated "you can use a bonus action to cause whirling gusts of elemental air to briefly surround you, immediately before or after you cast a spell of 1st level or higher. Doing so allows you to fly up to 10 feet without provoking opportunity attacks.". with the definition of a gust being a sudden strong rush of wind I think it is fair to assume it would be forcibly pulling you away breaking the grapple condition, and possible the restrained condition depending on the restraint. However because dnd is a game where rules are more guidelines then I think it is up to the dm to decide the interactions with various things as really the main point in my opinion of whether this works in a logical sense is how powerful and sudden are the gusts of wind.
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The rule you are quoting is predicated on the assumption that you are using your action purely for the purpose of attempting to escape the grapple. You do not have to use your action for this. You are not prevented from casting a spell while Grappled.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
We can keep arguing about this for hours, but the rules for TempestM were clearly not written with careful thought to interaction with these spells and similar abilities, which cause the Restrained rather than the Grappled condition.
Here is how I would rule as a DM: TempestM does grant the Sorcerer aerial movement up to 10 feet. The "up to" part is crucial. It could well be less. Consider this: If a clumsy or blinded Sorc stumbles into a steel bear trap that securely has one end pounded into firm ground, does an ability by TempestM just let the Sorcerer fly away? Logically, no (unless the caster's spell was a direct damage spell that destroys the tether). The TempestM does not confer the ability to make an automatic STR check or anything of the sort. Spells or creature abilities that use the Restrained condition - not the Grappled condition - that have very specific ability check methods or damage-to-destroy-agent-of-restraint methods therefore would still Restrain the caster. So I would rule that the the Sorcerer can get airborne, but has to remain within 4 feet of the snare/webbing/etc. unless the agent of restraint allows more movement (relevant if we consider certain monster abilities). This way, the basis for the TempestM ability still occurs but are limited by the rules Re: Restrained condition to some degree.
The op was in reference to using TM to escape a grapple ie. breaking the condition, so of course I defined the action as using it in such a way. TM has already been defined indirectly as an auto-escape for a sorcerer by the lead designer. No chance at failure. But is that realistic? Nope. Even Thunder has a chance at failure via the save. The next criticism is speed. The PC is going from 0 to 10 feet. That is by definition speed and therefore movement in the PHB In fact it is a bonus action form of movement. But that isn't the core of the issue.
That is why I added the conditional DM options for the trigger spells to bring balance to the force whether fly to escape is being used or not. I know you can cast while grappled is in the rules. I disagree with the mechanics and the concept of grappling as applied to casting hence the DM options for casting the trigger spell. My options don't disallow the fly away but does make it difficult and not an auto-escape without a roll. As I said about Thunder, even that spell has a chance at failure to escape.
A Sorce by definition can never be grappled by anything as long as they have a spell and the ability to cast it. Now can you imagine a Sorce trying to cast a spell during this?? LOL
The Grappled condition in 5e just means that one creature is holding onto another creature. This could be by the clothes, by a limb or something else. There are currently no grapple rules that take into account things like half Nelsons and choke-holds. You could well make the argument that there should be expanded rules about that, but that should go in the Homebrew or General Discussion parts of the forum, not the Rules & Mechanics part.
Sure, that's absolutely reasonable, and it can be accounted for in the "source of effect traveling" conditional (source/impossibility of effect traveling?). If a player is restrained (by anything) while also inside a metal box, TM isn't going to let them pass through to the other side of the box no matter how much movement it grants; they'd need an actual teleport. Conversely, I'd let a player restrained by a bear trap, manacles, rope, etc to be freed from it by TM.
"The gust of elemental air applies just enough pressure to the trap's jaws for you to slip your leg free."
"The forceful gust of air causes the chain tether to be ripped free from the ground, and it is now trailing from your ankle."
If the power of this ability is sufficient to physically cause a creature of any size to be lifted in the air and moved up to 10 feet, it can certainly do the same to almost any physical restraint that I can think of.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Completely incorrect. You are not seeing the point. You do not apply the rules of "breaking a grapple" to the Sorcerer Class Feature: Tempestuous Magic.
"Breaking a grapple" is, in-and-of itself, a completely distinct action. You can use your action, on your turn, to attempt breaking free of a grapple with a successful Athletics or Acrobatics check. That is an option for how to use your action; one option of how to break a grapple. It is not the only way, nor is it the mandatory way.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
I'm fine with the ruling that the restraints prevent you from moving away when they specifically mention being anchored in place. I would make the same call if I were DM.
As for Web, this line: "On a failed save, the creature is restrained as long as it remains in the webs or until it breaks free," [emphasis mine] certainly seems to indicate that you can be freed from the web's via movement.
"Remains in the webs" just means that the webs continue to restrain the creature caught in them. The spell text then follows by saying that a successful STR check frees the creature. Then, in the next paragraph, fire destroys the webbing. Either one would cause the creature to no longer "remain in the web". The spell mentions nothing about movement in and of itself causing the trapped creature to be freed.
How in the world would a gust of elemental air release pressure from the trap's jaws? This isn't an Air Elemental we're talking about. As for air causing the chain tether to be ripped from the ground, that could be reasonable depending on the strength of the chain and what it had been tethered to in the first place. Note, though, that in this case, the trap would still be attached and could become another thing to be grabbed onto by an opposing character or cause difficulty with normal movement. That, too, would be the DM's call.
In any situation where Tempestuous Magic would lead to a rules conflict, any rule that causes forced movement would've resulted in the same conundrum. You run into the exact same problem if someone uses Repelling Blast on a creature trapped in Web, for example. At the end of the day the rules can't easily account for non-teleportation movement that's unrelated to a creature's speed.
To be clear, while I'm firmly in the "RAW, Tempestuous Magic breaks grapples" camp, I also think that's largely an accidental feature.
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Full text of the Web spell (since evidently people are choosing to selectively quote only portions of text and interpret from those small portions):
The text that I bolded for you says exactly how to break free from the webbing. Movement is not included here. Since this is a Restrained and not a Grappled condition, the Sorc is still Restrained no matter if TempestM happens or not.
The sentence immediately before your bolded section says the restraint only lasts until 1 of 2 conditions are met:
You are focusing on the part of the spell that is not relevant to the argument.
All I can say at this point, is see post #14, wherein it's pretty clear that "Restrained" functions differently from "Grappled" as per the basic rules. Unless you're going to argue that RAW isn't RAW.
You are correct. Restrained is not the same as grappled. Grappled specifically has a clause that says it is ended by moving out of range. And web has a clause that says its effect ends if you move out of range. These are the rules as they are written.
Well, you and I just have to disagree then on how to interpret the wording of a spell. As I DM, I would rule that Web is basically like super-duper glue applied to multiple areas of a person's body sticking it to the wall/floor and that a gust of wind by itself would not be sufficient to dislodge a Medium sized creature from that unless it was hurricane level (and I would probably roll randomly in that case for damage to the creature's clothing/hair/flesh from being pulled so violently away from the surface it was previously attached to). As DM, you can interpret or change the rules as you see fit.
We actually are! The wind produces by TM is literally Elemental air. Whether that's produced directly from an Air Elemental or conjured from the Elemental Plane of Air is negligible. I just find that to be an interesting bit of fluff.
Funny thing: the minimum conditions to lift/propel someone is going to vary based on the vector that the wind is blowing, atmospheric conditions, surface area impacted, blah blah etc... but to propel someone of ~150 lbs off the ground is going to need a wind speed of at least 100 mph. Hurricane level winds begin at 73 mph!
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Well, then as DM, I would rule that the wind ripping your character away from anything vaguely resembling a hunting trap, including certain spells, would also deal the Sorcerer 1d4 points of damage and/or damage some article of clothing so as to become unusable.
Totally off base. You are not seeing the point. You don't have any significant bearing the guidelines of "breaking a hook" to the Sorcerer Class Feature: Tempestuous Magic.
"Breaking a hook" is, all by itself, a totally particular activity. You can utilize your activity, on your turn, to endeavor breaking liberated from a think about an effective Athletics or Acrobatics check. That is a possibility for how to utilize your activity; one choice of how to break a hook. It isn't the main way, nor is it the required way.
Examples Of Fax Cover Sheet PDF
In the book it is stated "you can use a bonus action to cause whirling gusts of elemental air to briefly surround you, immediately before or after you cast a spell of 1st level or higher. Doing so allows you to fly up to 10 feet without provoking opportunity attacks.". with the definition of a gust being a sudden strong rush of wind I think it is fair to assume it would be forcibly pulling you away breaking the grapple condition, and possible the restrained condition depending on the restraint. However because dnd is a game where rules are more guidelines then I think it is up to the dm to decide the interactions with various things as really the main point in my opinion of whether this works in a logical sense is how powerful and sudden are the gusts of wind.