So, if a storm sorcerer is grappled, can that condition be ended by their tempestuous magic feature?
Grappled
A grappled creature's speed becomes 0, and it can't benefit from any bonus to its speed.
The condition ends if the grappler is incapacitated.
The condition also ends if an effect removes the grappled creature from the reach of the grappler or grappling effect, such as when a creature is hurled away by the thunderwave spell.
Tempestuous Magic
Starting at 1st level, you can use a bonus action on your turn to cause whirling gusts of elemental air to briefly surround you, immediately before or after you cast a spell of 1st level or higher. Doing so allows you to fly up to 10 feet without provoking opportunity attacks.
Pointing out other specific rules which can provide more guidance is much appreciated.
Tempestuous magic would be considered a bonus to the creature's speed, which is specifically denied by the grappled condition.
Tempestuous magic never grants a bonus to yous speed.
RAW it allows you to move independently of your current speed or remaining movement, which allows you to move out of the grappler's reach and end the condition.
When Tempestuous Magic allows you to fly up to 10 feet away, I think you could make a strong argument that counts as a bonus to your speed. And if it doesn't, then the free pass would also apply to the restrained condition. I have a hard time imagining someone being caught in a web or chained to a wall and then just flying away like a leaf on the wind.
But let me come at it from a different angle. I don't see anything in Tempestuous Magic that specifically breaks the grappled condition. Maybe the third bullet point, but that's a stretch to me since it lets you fly up to 10 feet, as opposed to being blown away a-la gust of wind. While grappled, your speed is 0 so you cannot move. Now let's visualize the situation. If the orc has you by the collar and you're grappled, how would tempestuous magic move you away? Would it yank you out of his grip? Does he get to contest this? Does it take him with you when it whisks you away?
I agree with IC while acknowledging that, though incorrect, the leap TD makes is a totally understandable one.
Tempestuous Magic does not modify your speed in any way. It is a flat movement feature that is independent of a character's actual speed. The easiest way to think of it is that it is more similar to how features that involve teleportation work (mechanically 100%; thematically less so) like Misty Step. Teleportation/forced movement always breaks a grapple, so there's no reason for the feature to specify what it is already implied to do.
Conversely, if Tempestuous Magic were intended to not be usable when Grappled, then it would be written more similarly to something like Drunken Technique:
Drunken Technique
At 3rd level, you learn how to twist and turn quickly as part of your Flurry of Blows. Whenever you use Flurry of Blows, you gain the benefit of the Disengage action, and your walking speed increases by 10 feet until the end of the current turn.
As for whether the grappler themselves gets brought along? Less clear, but I hang my hat in the "nope" camp. If it were possible to bring another creature along, the feature would say so like with Dimension Door.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
When Tempestuous Magic allows you to fly up to 10 feet away, I think you could make a strong argument that counts as a bonus to your speed.
You can make a strong argument that the effect achieves roughly the same thing as a temporary bonus to your speed. That's not what we're discussing though.
You're not expected to apply the rules by analogy. "X behaves like Y" is not enough to say X is a Y, and doing that is one of the most common ways people get the rules wrong.
And if it doesn't, then the free pass would also apply to the restrained condition.
The restrained condition doesn't have rules for ending it the way the grappled condition does. So it's not an automatic free pass unless the restrained condition is contingent on staying grappled.
But let me come at it from a different angle. I don't see anything in Tempestuous Magic that specifically breaks the grappled condition.
It doesn't have to. The grappled condition has its own rules for ending.
If the orc has you by the collar and you're grappled, how would tempestuous magic move you away? Would it yank you out of his grip?
That's the simplest explanation.
Does he get to contest this?
The grappled condition doesn't give the grappler a chance to hold on. If anything moves the grappled creature out of the grappler's reach for whatever reason, the grapple breaks.
Does it take him with you when it whisks you away?
Nothing in the grappled condition allows the grappler to get dragged either.
It can be useful, but it is only 10' of movement and it requires a spell slot. A lot of foes can fly, have reach, or some other way to restrain/contain a humanoid besides grappling. Speaking of which, the movement provided by Tempestuous Magic is not enough to break the Sorcerer free from spells like Web, Snare, or Entangle because those spells do not rely on the grapple rules.
It can be useful, but it is only 10' of movement and it requires a spell slot. A lot of foes can fly, have reach, or some other way to restrain/contain a humanoid besides grappling. Speaking of which, the movement provided by Tempestuous Magic is not enough to break the Sorcerer free from spells like Web, Snare, or Entangle because those spells do not rely on the grapple rules.
It actually does let them escape from Web because the restrained condition ends when they leave the web.
Weirdly, it would let them move away from snare and entangle, but would not end the restraint. So narratively, they would still be tied by bindings they are 10 feet from.
I think the devs were in a no-win situation on this one. Using a fixed distance can interact in wonky ways with the restrained condition, but granting a temporary 10 foot flying speed means you can't benefit from it if you've already moved 10 feet during that turn.
They could've also added an exception that prevents you from using the feature if you're restrained, but I'm not sure if that would've been worth the extra word count. The most common way players become restrained is monster abilities that grapple; it's rare for players to fight anyone with Entangle and Snare would never come up using official stat blocks.
There is definitely some potential for some weird corner cases on this one but I think the grappled ruling is pretty uncontroversial. If other forms of forced movement can break a grapple without the grappler getting any kind of recourse, I don't see why this ability shouldn't be able to. Any creature can try to break a grapple with their action anyways; this just lets you trade uncertainty for spell slots.
No, DxJxC, the Web spell specifies that there are three ways to end being restrained: A) successful STR check; B) fire to destroy the Web; C) spell ended by caster, voluntarily or involuntarily (by regular spellcasting rules inference). It says nothing about movement, magical or otherwise, being able to end the restrained condition.
Entangle: STR check.
Snare: DEX saving throw or Arcana check.
If the rule text means what it means, movement away from the web, the entangling roots, or the trap from the Snare would be impossible unless the DM rules there is some minor wiggle room, but the Sorc is still very much restrained.
A restrained creature's speed becomes 0, and it can't benefit from any bonus to its speed.
Attack rolls against the creature have advantage, and the creature's attack rolls have disadvantage.
The creature has disadvantage on Dexterity saving throws.
Grappled
A grappled creature's speed becomes 0, and it can't benefit from any bonus to its speed.
The condition ends if the grappler is incapacitated (see the condition).
The condition also ends if an effect removes the grappled creature from the reach of the grappler or grappling effect, such as when a creature is hurled away by the thunderwave spell.
If you notice, the Restrained condition does not have the last line in the Grappled condition. Therefore, a Restrained character, by inference, should not be able to escape via a spell or effect that removes that character from the "grasp" of a spell like Web or Snare b/c those spells do not inflict the Grappled condition, but the Restrained condition.
So the Storm Sorcerer can fly away from webbing, snares, or entangling roots, but they stay restrained. So they still have roots or webbing or a rope around them. Makes sense to me.
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
IF A MAGE IS GRAPPLED, THEY MUST BREAK FREE FIRST (ability check and their ACTION) ! This action negates the casting action required for TM to work.
For TM to work, you must CAST A 1ST LEVEL OR HIGHER SPELL AND THEN AS A BONUS CAST THE TM FLY AWAY SPELL IMMEDIATELY BEFORE OR AFTER YOUR TRIGGER SPELL.
Since the breaking the grapple is the ACTION, a trigger spell can't be cast, and therefore TM is rendered a moot point. The trigger spell and TM must be back to back immediate actions and grappling prevents that from happening.
By 5e rules, a grappled creature can stilll take actions like casting a spell or attacking a creature within reach. Therefore, the Storm Sorc can cast any spell and thus fly away from the grappler unless the grappler's reach is 10' or more.
It can be useful, but it is only 10' of movement and it requires a spell slot. A lot of foes can fly, have reach, or some other way to restrain/contain a humanoid besides grappling. Speaking of which, the movement provided by Tempestuous Magic is not enough to break the Sorcerer free from spells like Web, Snare, or Entangle because those spells do not rely on the grapple rules.
It actually does let them escape from Web because the restrained condition ends when they leave the web.
Weirdly, it would let them move away from snare and entangle, but would not end the restraint. So narratively, they would still be tied by bindings they are 10 feet from.
Frankly, I hate everything about how Grappled & Restrained are defined in 5e. I'm on the fence about whether TM removes the Restrained condition or not, and I think this is one condition that could really benefit from an errata. I'll make the case that it does (at least sometimes):
Note that this is an inductive argument. I am aware that there are uncertainties which may completely alter the narrative. I am not saying this is the definitive argument; only a strong argument given the information at hand.
Web is straight-forward: not in the web; not restrained. I think Entangle is too. The spell targets a discrete area, only affects the ground in that area, and does not move. If you are removed from the area of effect, you should no longer be Restrained.
Snare is a little different in that the range is "Touch", but the area affected by the spell is actually a 10' diameter circle. This spell also has what looks like a logical fallacy of circular reasoning (it's not) concerning how to break the Restrained condition. Once triggered, a creature is Restrained "magically" (no definitive description of shape/appearance/corporeality; perfectly generic conditions) in place until the spell ends. Yes, there are other ways to break the condition that are specific to the spell, but put a pin in that because the very last line is the interesting one.
"After the trap is triggered, the spell ends when no creature is restrained by it." Restrained until spell ends. Spell ends when not Restrained. That's not a circular argument, but it could look like one without thinking about the context. What else do we know about the spell?
It can only affect one target.
Once triggered, there is no mechanism to "reset" the trap.
No mention of affecting other creatures.
It covers a specific area.
The trap does not move.
If the spell has its own specific methods of becoming unrestrained, cannot affect more than one creature (i.e. someone trying to help), and cannot move from the location it was cast upon, why would there be a need to specify that the spell ends when nobody is Restrained by it? That's already a baked-in condition. We already know a spell ends when all of its effects have been resolved. Did the 8 hour duration pass without the trap being triggered? Spell ends. Did the trap trigger, but not actually catch the target? Well, it has done all that it is capable of doing, so the spell ends. Was the target freed from the Restrained condition? Spell ends.
We already know this just from the general rules & spell description, so the final line would be effectively stating the obvious. WoTC isn't in the habit of wasting ink on text that is completely meaningless, so what would be the purpose of including that line? Exactly the type of situation we've been talking about with Tempestuous Magic: forced movement away from the source of Restrained. The implication then is, unless the source of the effect travels with the affected creature, forced movement breaks the Restrained condition. In this case, we know the effect does not travel, so using Tempestuous Magic to fly outside of the affected area would break the Restrained condition.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
I do believe that allowing TM to break the grappled condition by way of the third bullet point doesn't really follow the intention behind the way the bullet point was written for the condition. The given example appears to apply to situation where an effect blows, propels, or launches the character away--generally after a failed saving throw. The given example of thunderwave is a good example of this. The spell goes off, the target takes damage, and is blown away if they fail their save. Without the third bullet point, characters could use the grappled condition as a tool for their own benefit to circumvent the spell (My teammate is grabbing arm so I'm grappled and the spell can't do its thing). So I do see the value of having the third bullet point at all. The difference with TM is that it doesn't blow you away. It allows you to voluntarily fly under your own control either 0 feet, five feet, or ten feet at your discretion and then land safely on your feet. To me, that feels entirely different than an effect propelling you away at the end of a failed saving throw. Attempting to read the minds of the creators to glean their intentions is an exercise in folly, but that's how I feel in this case.
Many thanks for the feedback. You should have seen the rules lawyering going on at my table when this actually happened.
For the record Texas, my ruling agreed with your initial statements. That said, I told the players I'd investigate this edge case further. Thus, this post was born.
No RPG rule set can cover every situation. We do the best we can. I now a clearer idea on how to handle this, along with the ability to quote Jeremy Crawford on this specific case.
Grapple Rule For Monsters- A creature grappled by the monster can use its action to try to escape. To do so, it MUST succeed on a Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check against the escape DC in the monster's stat block. If no escape DC is given, assume the DC is 10 + the monster's Strength (Athletics) modifier. So if you follow this rule, you MUST make the Str/Dex to escape first, cast the trigger spell and then the bonus TM-fly away. The lead designer contradicted his own rules for monsters in his twitter statement. There is no exception to this rule.
So to rectify the issue, I propose the following while being grappled.
Somatic Trigger Spell: Strength Check: Make a strength check to make the motions with your hands to cast your trigger spell and the TM bonus spell.
Verbal Trigger Spell. Strength or Dexterity Check. The moment you start to talk, the bandit covers your mouth. Make a str or dex check to free your mouth head etc. so you can cast your spell and bonus TM.
Spell focus Trigger Spell: Make a Dex check to hold onto it while being grappled or reaching for it during the struggle. Make the check, cast the trigger spell and then the bonus TM spell.
TM makes it easier to escape a grappler (automatic escape) than Thunderwave (save allowed) does! A sorc could NEVER be grappled the way the ruling has been made which isn't realistic or balanced. Is a first level TM spell more powerful than the strength of a stone giant-23? The above rolls on the trigger spell at least make casting the trigger and subsequent TM spell more balanced. I believe you should default to the Monster grapple rule order.
So, if a storm sorcerer is grappled, can that condition be ended by their tempestuous magic feature?
Pointing out other specific rules which can provide more guidance is much appreciated.
Tempestuous magic would be considered a bonus to the creature's speed, which is specifically denied by the grappled condition.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Tempestuous magic never grants a bonus to yous speed.
RAW it allows you to move independently of your current speed or remaining movement, which allows you to move out of the grappler's reach and end the condition.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
When Tempestuous Magic allows you to fly up to 10 feet away, I think you could make a strong argument that counts as a bonus to your speed. And if it doesn't, then the free pass would also apply to the restrained condition. I have a hard time imagining someone being caught in a web or chained to a wall and then just flying away like a leaf on the wind.
But let me come at it from a different angle. I don't see anything in Tempestuous Magic that specifically breaks the grappled condition. Maybe the third bullet point, but that's a stretch to me since it lets you fly up to 10 feet, as opposed to being blown away a-la gust of wind. While grappled, your speed is 0 so you cannot move. Now let's visualize the situation. If the orc has you by the collar and you're grappled, how would tempestuous magic move you away? Would it yank you out of his grip? Does he get to contest this? Does it take him with you when it whisks you away?
"Not all those who wander are lost"
I agree with IC while acknowledging that, though incorrect, the leap TD makes is a totally understandable one.
Tempestuous Magic does not modify your speed in any way. It is a flat movement feature that is independent of a character's actual speed. The easiest way to think of it is that it is more similar to how features that involve teleportation work (mechanically 100%; thematically less so) like Misty Step. Teleportation/forced movement always breaks a grapple, so there's no reason for the feature to specify what it is already implied to do.
Conversely, if Tempestuous Magic were intended to not be usable when Grappled, then it would be written more similarly to something like Drunken Technique:
As for whether the grappler themselves gets brought along? Less clear, but I hang my hat in the "nope" camp. If it were possible to bring another creature along, the feature would say so like with Dimension Door.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Looks like I'm wrong.
Boy it sure seems like a powerful ability for a level 1 ability, breaking out of grappled and restrained conditions with certainty.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
You can make a strong argument that the effect achieves roughly the same thing as a temporary bonus to your speed. That's not what we're discussing though.
Jeremy Crawford concurs: "A rule refers to your speed if your speed is relevant to how that rule works.
For example, Tempestuous Magic allows you to fly up to 10 feet. The feature makes no mention of your speed, so your speed is irrelevant to it."
You're not expected to apply the rules by analogy. "X behaves like Y" is not enough to say X is a Y, and doing that is one of the most common ways people get the rules wrong.
The restrained condition doesn't have rules for ending it the way the grappled condition does. So it's not an automatic free pass unless the restrained condition is contingent on staying grappled.
It doesn't have to. The grappled condition has its own rules for ending.
That's the simplest explanation.
The grappled condition doesn't give the grappler a chance to hold on. If anything moves the grappled creature out of the grappler's reach for whatever reason, the grapple breaks.
Nothing in the grappled condition allows the grappler to get dragged either.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
It can be useful, but it is only 10' of movement and it requires a spell slot. A lot of foes can fly, have reach, or some other way to restrain/contain a humanoid besides grappling. Speaking of which, the movement provided by Tempestuous Magic is not enough to break the Sorcerer free from spells like Web, Snare, or Entangle because those spells do not rely on the grapple rules.
It actually does let them escape from Web because the restrained condition ends when they leave the web.
Weirdly, it would let them move away from snare and entangle, but would not end the restraint. So narratively, they would still be tied by bindings they are 10 feet from.
I think the devs were in a no-win situation on this one. Using a fixed distance can interact in wonky ways with the restrained condition, but granting a temporary 10 foot flying speed means you can't benefit from it if you've already moved 10 feet during that turn.
They could've also added an exception that prevents you from using the feature if you're restrained, but I'm not sure if that would've been worth the extra word count. The most common way players become restrained is monster abilities that grapple; it's rare for players to fight anyone with Entangle and Snare would never come up using official stat blocks.
There is definitely some potential for some weird corner cases on this one but I think the grappled ruling is pretty uncontroversial. If other forms of forced movement can break a grapple without the grappler getting any kind of recourse, I don't see why this ability shouldn't be able to. Any creature can try to break a grapple with their action anyways; this just lets you trade uncertainty for spell slots.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
No, DxJxC, the Web spell specifies that there are three ways to end being restrained: A) successful STR check; B) fire to destroy the Web; C) spell ended by caster, voluntarily or involuntarily (by regular spellcasting rules inference). It says nothing about movement, magical or otherwise, being able to end the restrained condition.
Entangle: STR check.
Snare: DEX saving throw or Arcana check.
If the rule text means what it means, movement away from the web, the entangling roots, or the trap from the Snare would be impossible unless the DM rules there is some minor wiggle room, but the Sorc is still very much restrained.
From the Basic Rules:
Restrained
Grappled
If you notice, the Restrained condition does not have the last line in the Grappled condition. Therefore, a Restrained character, by inference, should not be able to escape via a spell or effect that removes that character from the "grasp" of a spell like Web or Snare b/c those spells do not inflict the Grappled condition, but the Restrained condition.
So the Storm Sorcerer can fly away from webbing, snares, or entangling roots, but they stay restrained. So they still have roots or webbing or a rope around them. Makes sense to me.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Edited to reflect wasted time.
That's a bold statement.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
By 5e rules, a grappled creature can stilll take actions like casting a spell or attacking a creature within reach. Therefore, the Storm Sorc can cast any spell and thus fly away from the grappler unless the grappler's reach is 10' or more.
Frankly, I hate everything about how Grappled & Restrained are defined in 5e. I'm on the fence about whether TM removes the Restrained condition or not, and I think this is one condition that could really benefit from an errata. I'll make the case that it does (at least sometimes):
Note that this is an inductive argument. I am aware that there are uncertainties which may completely alter the narrative. I am not saying this is the definitive argument; only a strong argument given the information at hand.
Web is straight-forward: not in the web; not restrained. I think Entangle is too. The spell targets a discrete area, only affects the ground in that area, and does not move. If you are removed from the area of effect, you should no longer be Restrained.
Snare is a little different in that the range is "Touch", but the area affected by the spell is actually a 10' diameter circle. This spell also has what looks like a logical fallacy of circular reasoning (it's not) concerning how to break the Restrained condition. Once triggered, a creature is Restrained "magically" (no definitive description of shape/appearance/corporeality; perfectly generic conditions) in place until the spell ends. Yes, there are other ways to break the condition that are specific to the spell, but put a pin in that because the very last line is the interesting one.
"After the trap is triggered, the spell ends when no creature is restrained by it." Restrained until spell ends. Spell ends when not Restrained. That's not a circular argument, but it could look like one without thinking about the context. What else do we know about the spell?
If the spell has its own specific methods of becoming unrestrained, cannot affect more than one creature (i.e. someone trying to help), and cannot move from the location it was cast upon, why would there be a need to specify that the spell ends when nobody is Restrained by it? That's already a baked-in condition. We already know a spell ends when all of its effects have been resolved. Did the 8 hour duration pass without the trap being triggered? Spell ends. Did the trap trigger, but not actually catch the target? Well, it has done all that it is capable of doing, so the spell ends. Was the target freed from the Restrained condition? Spell ends.
We already know this just from the general rules & spell description, so the final line would be effectively stating the obvious. WoTC isn't in the habit of wasting ink on text that is completely meaningless, so what would be the purpose of including that line? Exactly the type of situation we've been talking about with Tempestuous Magic: forced movement away from the source of Restrained. The implication then is, unless the source of the effect travels with the affected creature, forced movement breaks the Restrained condition. In this case, we know the effect does not travel, so using Tempestuous Magic to fly outside of the affected area would break the Restrained condition.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
It's clear where the rule lies, so that's fine.
I do believe that allowing TM to break the grappled condition by way of the third bullet point doesn't really follow the intention behind the way the bullet point was written for the condition. The given example appears to apply to situation where an effect blows, propels, or launches the character away--generally after a failed saving throw. The given example of thunderwave is a good example of this. The spell goes off, the target takes damage, and is blown away if they fail their save. Without the third bullet point, characters could use the grappled condition as a tool for their own benefit to circumvent the spell (My teammate is grabbing arm so I'm grappled and the spell can't do its thing). So I do see the value of having the third bullet point at all. The difference with TM is that it doesn't blow you away. It allows you to voluntarily fly under your own control either 0 feet, five feet, or ten feet at your discretion and then land safely on your feet. To me, that feels entirely different than an effect propelling you away at the end of a failed saving throw. Attempting to read the minds of the creators to glean their intentions is an exercise in folly, but that's how I feel in this case.
As I say, the ruling is clear and that's that.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Many thanks for the feedback. You should have seen the rules lawyering going on at my table when this actually happened.
For the record Texas, my ruling agreed with your initial statements. That said, I told the players I'd investigate this edge case further. Thus, this post was born.
No RPG rule set can cover every situation. We do the best we can. I now a clearer idea on how to handle this, along with the ability to quote Jeremy Crawford on this specific case.
Grapple Rule For Monsters- A creature grappled by the monster can use its action to try to escape. To do so, it MUST succeed on a Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check against the escape DC in the monster's stat block. If no escape DC is given, assume the DC is 10 + the monster's Strength (Athletics) modifier. So if you follow this rule, you MUST make the Str/Dex to escape first, cast the trigger spell and then the bonus TM-fly away. The lead designer contradicted his own rules for monsters in his twitter statement. There is no exception to this rule.
So to rectify the issue, I propose the following while being grappled.
Somatic Trigger Spell: Strength Check: Make a strength check to make the motions with your hands to cast your trigger spell and the TM bonus spell.
Verbal Trigger Spell. Strength or Dexterity Check. The moment you start to talk, the bandit covers your mouth. Make a str or dex check to free your mouth head etc. so you can cast your spell and bonus TM.
Spell focus Trigger Spell: Make a Dex check to hold onto it while being grappled or reaching for it during the struggle. Make the check, cast the trigger spell and then the bonus TM spell.
TM makes it easier to escape a grappler (automatic escape) than Thunderwave (save allowed) does! A sorc could NEVER be grappled the way the ruling has been made which isn't realistic or balanced. Is a first level TM spell more powerful than the strength of a stone giant-23? The above rolls on the trigger spell at least make casting the trigger and subsequent TM spell more balanced. I believe you should default to the Monster grapple rule order.
Thoughts?