The Suggestion spell confuses me. Let's face it, a reasonable suggestion wouldn't need the power of magic behind it anyway. A character with a decent charisma should be able to get you to accept a reasonable suggestion without magic. Also, "give your horse to the next peasant you see" isn't reasonable. It is actually unreasonable.
So, it seems that "reasonable" is meant, in the context of the Suggestion spell, to mean more than the word usually means. But, what exactly?
As long as you spin it to sound reasonable, it's like a Jedi Mind Trick.
Example: You walk up to a guard that is blocking a room you need to get into. So you walk up to him, cast Suggestion, and say "You've been working quite hard, why not go grab a drink and relax? Door's locked, after all."
If the guard fails his check, he may respond with "...Yeah, I s'pose yer right." and toddle off to get a drink, as long as you maintain concentration.
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Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
I use the examples provided in the spell as boundaries for what's considered reasonable.
In the examples, "Asking the creature to stab itself, throw itself onto a spear, immolate itself, or do some other obviously harmful act" is unreasonable. So I figure anything that directly deals damage to the target is unreasonable. I'd probably generalize that to dealing damage to the target or its allies. On the other hand, the example given of a reasonable suggestion is "you might suggest that a Knight give her Warhorse to the first Beggar she meets." So giving away a prized possession is reasonable. So there's a pretty wide range of things that are technically considered "reasonable".
Also, "give your horse to the next peasant you see" isn't reasonable. It is actually unreasonable.
That's not an example of a full suggestion, it's an example of a condition.
So, it seems that "reasonable" is meant, in the context of the Suggestion spell, to mean more than the word usually means.
No, it means what the word usually means. Like everyone else pointed out, it just has to sound reasonable. As you figured out, if you have a strong argument you wouldn't need to be casting the spell; you'd just persuade them normally. Ultimately the DM will be the judge.
No, if you ask a guard to leave what he is guarding, he won't. Even if you make it sound reasonable, that would go against his job and alignment. No, you need magic to force someone to do something they strive against.
This is also a case where you should probably talk to your DM. They'll be making the final call on it. Based on a past thread on this issue, there are some pretty big disagreements about what counts as "reasonable" so you should make sure you're on the same page as your DM.
it’d be an answe number 1 or 2 if that question was asked as a Family Feud poll.
”we asked 100 perfect strangers if they would let a complete stranger past their guard station and into the castle knowing their king has had death threats against him”
I use the examples provided in the spell as boundaries for what's considered reasonable.
In the examples, "Asking the creature to stab itself, throw itself onto a spear, immolate itself, or do some other obviously harmful act" is unreasonable. So I figure anything that directly deals damage to the target is unreasonable. I'd probably generalize that to dealing damage to the target or its allies. On the other hand, the example given of a reasonable suggestion is "you might suggest that a Knight give her Warhorse to the first Beggar she meets." So giving away a prized possession is reasonable. So there's a pretty wide range of things that are technically considered "reasonable".
is that reasonable? Do you see the rich people in the United States giving away Porsche’s and Ferrari’s to Walmart Checkers or to welfare recipients? No? Cause it’s not reasonable to most people.
As long as you spin it to sound reasonable, it's like a Jedi Mind Trick.
Example: You walk up to a guard that is blocking a room you need to get into. So you walk up to him, cast Suggestion, and say "You've been working quite hard, why not go grab a drink and relax? Door's locked, after all."
If the guard fails his check, he may respond with "...Yeah, I s'pose yer right." and toddle off to get a drink, as long as you maintain concentration.
this ones fairly good...
”the doors locked anyways, how many people have actually come to try and get past it? You’re not even really needed here, you can go off to get a drink or carouse and no one would notice”
would also be possibly effective. The only hindrance to both is you being in proximity to the door.
I use the examples provided in the spell as boundaries for what's considered reasonable.
In the examples, "Asking the creature to stab itself, throw itself onto a spear, immolate itself, or do some other obviously harmful act" is unreasonable. So I figure anything that directly deals damage to the target is unreasonable. I'd probably generalize that to dealing damage to the target or its allies. On the other hand, the example given of a reasonable suggestion is "you might suggest that a Knight give her Warhorse to the first Beggar she meets." So giving away a prized possession is reasonable. So there's a pretty wide range of things that are technically considered "reasonable".
is that reasonable? Do you see the rich people in the United States giving away Porsche’s and Ferrari’s to Walmart Checkers or to welfare recipients? No? Cause it’s not reasonable to most people.
I agree, I would have thought it's unreasonable. But it's an example of a suggestion used in the spell description itself, so it's reasonable enough to be used as a suggestion...
Lol... let’s agree not to open up this can of worms of “since it’s an example. And that person is lawful good. By RAW lawful good means lawful stupid, a la Dudley Do Right”
yeah... yeah.
we agree on that whole scenario. Yep. I guess that’s the... baseline for.. as far as you can push “reasonable” then...?
Considering that it is magic, as long as you word it in a manner that the DM can agree it would sound reasonable to magically-muddled mind. I mean, here are some more examples:
"These are not the droids you are looking for."
"You do not want to sell me deathsticks. You want to go home and rethink your life."
Yes, I am dying on the hill that Suggestion is a Jedi Mind Trick. You can absolutely try and do just about anything that isn't suicidal as long as you phrase it in a way to make it seem reasonable. A knight giving her warhorse to the first beggar she sees? well, appeal to the Knight's sense of duty while wording your Suggestion.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
Considering that it is magic, as long as you word it in a manner that the DM can agree it would sound reasonable to magically-muddled mind. I mean, here are some more examples:
"These are not the droids you are looking for."
"You do not want to sell me deathsticks. You want to go home and rethink your life."
Yes, I am dying on the hill that Suggestion is a Jedi Mind Trick. You can absolutely try and do just about anything that isn't suicidal as long as you phrase it in a way to make it seem reasonable. A knight giving her warhorse to the first beggar she sees? well, appeal to the Knight's sense of duty while wording your Suggestion.
I am 100% with you. Except for the dying on the hill.
I’m just saying. It’d be nice to be on the receiving end of that suggestion. I’d feel like I won the lottery. Before someone murders me for my horse since D&D worlds is basically the Wild West with frontier justice.
I simplify it this way: treat the target like an NPC - you can use suggstion to get them to do anything you could otherwise get them to do by rolling persuasion. The spell is just auto-success on persuasion. If the task is something you could never persuade them to do no matter how phrased then you cannot make them do it. But if it was possible even though had a super high DC, then you can do it.
It is often easier to make them fail against saving throw DC than it is to try and hit a DC 25 Persuasion with your +2 charisma. Especially true for Sorcs with heighten metamagic to enforce disadvantage.
Simple enough, saves headaches, fits the intent of the 2nd level spell, and prevents it being an OP instant-win button.
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Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond. Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ thisFAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
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The Suggestion spell confuses me. Let's face it, a reasonable suggestion wouldn't need the power of magic behind it anyway. A character with a decent charisma should be able to get you to accept a reasonable suggestion without magic. Also, "give your horse to the next peasant you see" isn't reasonable. It is actually unreasonable.
So, it seems that "reasonable" is meant, in the context of the Suggestion spell, to mean more than the word usually means. But, what exactly?
The course of action doesn’t have to be reasonable, it just has to sound reasonable.
I would say as long as it is not diametrically opposed to their alignment and isn't self harming. But ultimately, it is up to DM.
As long as you spin it to sound reasonable, it's like a Jedi Mind Trick.
Example: You walk up to a guard that is blocking a room you need to get into. So you walk up to him, cast Suggestion, and say "You've been working quite hard, why not go grab a drink and relax? Door's locked, after all."
If the guard fails his check, he may respond with "...Yeah, I s'pose yer right." and toddle off to get a drink, as long as you maintain concentration.
Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
I use the examples provided in the spell as boundaries for what's considered reasonable.
In the examples, "Asking the creature to stab itself, throw itself onto a spear, immolate itself, or do some other obviously harmful act" is unreasonable. So I figure anything that directly deals damage to the target is unreasonable. I'd probably generalize that to dealing damage to the target or its allies. On the other hand, the example given of a reasonable suggestion is "you might suggest that a Knight give her Warhorse to the first Beggar she meets." So giving away a prized possession is reasonable. So there's a pretty wide range of things that are technically considered "reasonable".
That's not an example of a full suggestion, it's an example of a condition.
No, it means what the word usually means. Like everyone else pointed out, it just has to sound reasonable. As you figured out, if you have a strong argument you wouldn't need to be casting the spell; you'd just persuade them normally. Ultimately the DM will be the judge.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
okay, but if I could make it sound reasonable I wouldn't need the spell
No, if you ask a guard to leave what he is guarding, he won't. Even if you make it sound reasonable, that would go against his job and alignment. No, you need magic to force someone to do something they strive against.
D&D is a game for nerds... so I guess I'm one :p
This is also a case where you should probably talk to your DM. They'll be making the final call on it. Based on a past thread on this issue, there are some pretty big disagreements about what counts as "reasonable" so you should make sure you're on the same page as your DM.
Basically... think of reasonable as this:
it’d be an answe number 1 or 2 if that question was asked as a Family Feud poll.
”we asked 100 perfect strangers if they would let a complete stranger past their guard station and into the castle knowing their king has had death threats against him”
Blank
is that reasonable? Do you see the rich people in the United States giving away Porsche’s and Ferrari’s to Walmart Checkers or to welfare recipients? No? Cause it’s not reasonable to most people.
Blank
this ones fairly good...
”the doors locked anyways, how many people have actually come to try and get past it? You’re not even really needed here, you can go off to get a drink or carouse and no one would notice”
would also be possibly effective. The only hindrance to both is you being in proximity to the door.
Blank
I agree, I would have thought it's unreasonable. But it's an example of a suggestion used in the spell description itself, so it's reasonable enough to be used as a suggestion...
Lol... let’s agree not to open up this can of worms of “since it’s an example. And that person is lawful good. By RAW lawful good means lawful stupid, a la Dudley Do Right”
yeah... yeah.
we agree on that whole scenario. Yep. I guess that’s the... baseline for.. as far as you can push “reasonable” then...?
Blank
Considering that it is magic, as long as you word it in a manner that the DM can agree it would sound reasonable to magically-muddled mind. I mean, here are some more examples:
"These are not the droids you are looking for."
"You do not want to sell me deathsticks. You want to go home and rethink your life."
Yes, I am dying on the hill that Suggestion is a Jedi Mind Trick. You can absolutely try and do just about anything that isn't suicidal as long as you phrase it in a way to make it seem reasonable. A knight giving her warhorse to the first beggar she sees? well, appeal to the Knight's sense of duty while wording your Suggestion.
Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
I am 100% with you. Except for the dying on the hill.
I’m just saying. It’d be nice to be on the receiving end of that suggestion. I’d feel like I won the lottery. Before someone murders me for my horse since D&D worlds is basically the Wild West with frontier justice.
Blank
I simplify it this way: treat the target like an NPC - you can use suggstion to get them to do anything you could otherwise get them to do by rolling persuasion. The spell is just auto-success on persuasion. If the task is something you could never persuade them to do no matter how phrased then you cannot make them do it. But if it was possible even though had a super high DC, then you can do it.
It is often easier to make them fail against saving throw DC than it is to try and hit a DC 25 Persuasion with your +2 charisma. Especially true for Sorcs with heighten metamagic to enforce disadvantage.
Simple enough, saves headaches, fits the intent of the 2nd level spell, and prevents it being an OP instant-win button.
Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond.
Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ this FAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.