if your a spells “known” caster, the spell you “learn” from a feat is on your class list, your class level is high enough to “know” spells of that level, and you have high enough slots to cast that spell... then you can cast that spell by expending that slot.
I'm not sure what your saying here, this is relating to the wood elf magic feat. The sage advice you just posted goes against your answer? I'm probably missing something but I'm pretty sure the link you posted literally says spells learnt though Wood Elf Magic cannot be cast using spell slots?
"Wood Elf Magic, etc don't say you learn the spell or that it counts as a <Insert Class Here> spell for you." "They're distinguishing the 1 use you get from the feat from other ways you might have to cast the spell."
What these seem to suggest, is that Wood Elf Magic grants you a racial spell, which doesn't count as a learnt spell because they aren't part of a class list. Because they aren't part of a class list, you can't cast these spells using spell slots (unless you learn the spell though other means, in which case you basically have two separate versions, one racial spell and one learnt spell. If that confuses you, consider the fact that D&D Beyond allows you to prepare Fireball as a wizard, and as a sorcerer at the same time, thus you have a sorcerer fireball and a wizard fireball.)
Other feats like Magic initiate is different because it says that the spells learnt though the feat count as <insert class> spells. Racial feats like this does not say that, thus they work differently.
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if I edit a message, most of the time it's because of grammar. The rest of the time I'll put "Edit:" at the bottom.
There are feats that both teach you spells for x uses per day AND let you use spell slots. They all say so, expressly. Wood Elf Magic is not one of them.
A prime example is the new "Shadow Touched" Feat in the newest UA, which says "You can also cast these spells using spell slots you have of the appropriate level. The spells' spellcasting ability is the ability increased by this feat."
Per RAW, Unless a feat says "using spell slots", you can't use spell slots to cast them. The word 'learn' does nothing.
Is the spell you learned from the feat on your classes spell list? Check
is your spell casting class a spells known caster? Check
do you have spell slots to cast the spell at its lowest level or higher? Check
If you follow the flow chart, you’re good to go.
the point of the wording is that prepared casters like the wizard, cleric, paladin, druid, and artificer can’t expend a slot to cast a spell they know without some other features help, because that’s how their class spellcasting works.
it also doesn’t matter, Crawford has stated that it doesn’t seem to effect game balance. they’re probably tired of hearing about it, and are giving the players what they want by releasing the new feats worded in a more liberating way.
Quoting a pre-errata direct answer tweet to an incomplete question doesn't solve anything. This obviously doesn't fit with the current advice in published material, and therefore is outdated and irrelevant. In the strictest sense, Jeremy is right without any context such as "what class is the MI spell associated with?" An EK with MI(wizard) is a known caster using wizard spells; a wizard spell could be cast for an EK with a slot. An EK MI(sorc) should not be able to cast his sorc spell with slots under the post errata spell versions.
Is the spell you learned from the feat on your classes spell list? Check
So What? That doesn't make it one of "your <class> spells."
is your spell casting class a spells known caster? Check
So what? That doesn't make the spell one of "your <class> spells."
do you have spell slots to cast the spell at its lowest level or higher? Check
If you follow the flow chart, you’re good to go.
the point of the wording is that prepared casters like the wizard, cleric, paladin, druid, and artificer can’t expend a slot to cast a spell they know without some other features help, because that’s how their class spellcasting works.
it also doesn’t matter, Crawford has stated that it doesn’t seem to effect game balance. they’re probably tired of hearing about it, and are giving the players what they want by releasing the new feats worded in a more liberating way.
This is exactly incorrect.
First, each spellcasting feature requires that you cast only spells that are associated with that class; spells learned through racial feats (and just about every source besides Magic Initiate and the spellcasting features themselves) do not come with an associated class. The wording is even more clear when you consider the multiclassing rules-- which in the text says "Each spell you know and prepare is associated with one of your classes, and you use the spellcasting ability of that class when you cast the spell." Second, each spellcasting feature makes a distinction between "your <class> spells and the spells on "the <class> list;" this again is reinforced by the multiclassing rules, since if the class lists were all that mattered then you wouldn't need to associated each spell you internalize with a particular class. Confusing your spells with the class list leads to the obviously incorrect assumption that multiclassed characters could mix and match casting abilities for some spells.
Here is a question: What part of the rules (other than an unwritten assumption) makes you so sure that a spell that you cannot cast because you haven't committed it to memory is one of "your spells?"
How have you learned the spell and yet not committed it to memory?
Are the spells that overlap class lists different? Or is the classes access to those spells the limiting factor?
what makes a classes spell a class spell is if it’s on that particular classes spell list.
im having a hard time finding the video but I remember a sage advice on the d&d channel talking about spell scrolls. He was explaining why there aren’t class specific spell scrolls. The answer was because there are no class specific spells, only the classes spell list. For example, cure wounds is the same spell regardless of if an artificer, bard, cleric, druid, paladin, or ranger casts it.
i wish they would go back to label and time stamp those talks.
Again, if you can't at least understand my post, I will not take your advice on rule reading.
I will ask the question again: What part of the rules (other than an unwritten assumption) makes you so sure that a spell that you cannot cast because you haven't committed it to memory -- but is on your class list -- is one of "your spells?"
No, there aren't different versions of spells for spell scrolls. But if you know cure wounds as a Bard, you don't get to choose add your wisdom modifier to it unless you also commit it to memory as one of the classes that use Wis for their casting stat.
Bees, we have disagreed on this in the past, but there is much for evidence for “wizard spells” meaning “spells on the wizard spell list” than there is for it meaning “spells you learned because you’re a wizard or magic initiate (wizard).”
- the wizard spell list is a list... of wizard spells, according to the plain English language meaning of those words
- the term is never defined any other way, other than being mentioned in close proximity to reference to the wizard spell list
I could spin off into chasing RAI and RAF on this, but at the end of the day, the simplest and plainest reading of the Spellcasting sections is that “x spells” are spells on “x spell list” (and also those spells you specifically treat as being on that list as a result of an x subclass feature).
the multiclassing section is the only text anyone ever points to to contradict this reading, but it’s plain language has NOTHING to do with whether a spell can be simultaneously a wizard spell and a cleric spell... it just says, the class you learned/prepared it from is the class that you use to determine its spellcasting modifier. It doesn’t say anything more than that, and certainly doesn’t yank spells off of spell lists.
think of “wizard spell” as an equivalent of “spanish word.” Maybe you don’t speak Spanish, only English, but you know the word “patio.” Congratulations, you know a “Spanish word,” even though your English Language feature only really let you use that word in the context of it also being an English word.
If the list of your cleric spells was the cleric spell list plus some spells, they wouldn't have to, in the same sentence, refer to those two separate things. That in it self is complete evidence that they're not the same.
If the list of your cleric spells was the cleric spell list plus some spells, they wouldn't have to, in the same sentence, refer to those two separate things in the same sentence.
Exactly, and we need look no further than the Arcana Domain Cleric to see it is true.
Arcane Initiate
When you choose this domain at 1st level, you gain proficiency in the Arcana skill, and you gain two cantrips of your choice from the wizard spell list. For you, these cantrips count as cleric cantrips.
Arcana Clerics get to pick some spells from the Wizard spell list. For them, those spells are treated as "your Cleric spells", but they are not on the "Cleric spell list".
Racial spells are not associated with any class. They are inherent magical capabilities. Why can an Elf Wizard not put their racial spell into their spellbook? Even if it's on the Wizard list? Because it's an Elf spell. Conceptually, it's like how a Sorcerer understands magic. They don't know how the spell works; they just know it does. It's an inherent ability that is not analogous to structured spellcasting theory.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
“Your cleric spells” are 1) cleric spells (spells on clerics spell list) and 2) other non-cleric spells not on that list, which your cleric subclass tells you to treat as cleric spells. That is precisely what I just said, and in no way supports your argument???
“Your cleric spells” are 1) cleric spells (spells on clerics spell list) and 2) other non-cleric spells not on that list, which your cleric subclass tells you to treat as cleric spells. That is precisely what I just said, and in no way supports your argument???
What makes you think this other than an unwritten assumption (that by your own admission is at odds with other rules)? The rules clearly make a distinction between spells that you cast and a list that it refers to as "the <class> list."
Can we establish a shared NPC that we're talking about here, to ground things a little?
Johnny Magic, Cleric (Arcana) 1/Sorcerer (Divine) 1
What are Johnny's "Cleric spells"?
Everything on the Cleric Spell list, obviously, because
As a conduit for divine power, you can cast cleric spells. See Spells Rules for the general rules of spellcasting and the Spells Listing for the cleric spell list.
In the Chapter 11 spells listing, in case that wasn't clear enough already, this "cleric spell list" is again presented as being a list of.... "cleric spells." The section for clerics is titled "Cleric Spells", and at this point, I hope we can all agree that whatever else may be going on, the "Cleric Spells" spell list in Chapter 11 are certainly "cleric spells." This doesn't require any unwritten assumptions, just us reading each section we've been directed to to learn that Johnny casts "cleric spells", and that those are found on the "cleric spell list," which is titled "cleric spells." Nice.
Of course, as a cleric, the "cleric spell list" is not the only place that Johnny's "cleric spells" are found. Domain spells provide:
Domain Spells
Each domain has a list of spells — its domain spells — that you gain at the cleric levels noted in the domain description. Once you gain a domain spell, you always have it prepared, and it doesn’t count against the number of spells you can prepare each day.
If you have a domain spell that doesn’t appear on the cleric spell list, the spell is nonetheless a cleric spell for you.
This both tells us affirmatively that these extra spells (including Magic Missile, not ordinarily on the cleric spell list) provided by his domain are also "cleric spells,"... but also by the use of "nonetheless" reaffirms the premise that ordinarily a "cleric spell" is a spell that "appear[s] on the cleric spell list." Which again, is exactly what we expected!
All relatively inoffensive so far, right? Cleric spells are spells on the cleric spell list, and spells that our class tells us are cleric spells. But what about Sorcerer spells?
2. What are Johnny's "Sorcerer" spells?
Just as with Cleric, a Sorcerer provides that:
An event in your past, or in the life of a parent or ancestor, left an indelible mark on you, infusing you with arcane magic. This font of magic, whatever its origin, fuels your spells. See Spells Rules for the general rules of spellcasting and the Spells Listing for the sorcerer spell list.
Recourse to chapter 11, again, explicitly labels this list of spells as "Sorcerer spells."
Where is the language which would suggest that spells on that list that you haven't yet learned are not Sorcerer spells?There is none, as a Level 1 sorcerer, we nevertheless know that level 2 spells on that Sorcerer Spell List like Alter Self are "sorcerer spells," which is important... because otherwise we'd never be able to learn more sorcerer spells!
The Spells Known column of the Sorcerer table shows when you learn more sorcerer spells of your choice. Each of these spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots. For instance, when you reach 3rd level in this class, you can learn one new spell of 1st or 2nd level.
If a spell isn't a sorcerer spell until we already know it, then there are no sorcerer spells from which to choose at level up. If instead a sorcerer spell is a spell on the sorcerer spell list.... no problemo!
So we're satisfied (or should be) that the "sorcerer spell list" is a list of "sorcerer spells," even though we've only learned a small handful of those spells from our sorcerer levels. But also, we have a subclass feature which expands "sorcerer spell" even further!
In addition, choose an affinity for the source of your divine power: good, evil, law, chaos, or neutrality. You learn an additional spell based on that affinity, as shown below. It is a sorcerer spell for you, but it doesn’t count against your number of sorcerer spells known.
As a divine sorcerer, that means that for example Cure Wounds is now a "sorcerer spell."
Has this in any way challenged the understanding that everything on the "sorcerer spell list" is also a "sorcerer spell"? No, why would it? Has this in any way made Cure Woundsstop being a Cleric spell? No, why would it?
These features all do what they say they do, nothing more. Spell Lists tell you that they give you the list of "x spells," and they do that. Subclass features that let you treat additional spells not on those spell lists as "x spells" do that, and nothing more. The multiclass rules that tell you to pick an attribute that's associated with a spell instead of using any spellcasting attribute from any of your classes does that, but it doesn't do anything else, like shrink the definition of "x spell."
I just honestly do not understand where your camp's perspective comes from that a cleric spell or sorcerer spell or anything else would be anything other than what those classes' spellcasting features tell you it is, which is 1) a spell on that list, and 2) any other spell that you are told to treat as a class spell.
*caveat: "sorcerer spell" vs. "your sorcerer spell", is that the difference you're zeroing in on?
Sorcerer spells are all spells on the sorcerer spell list. "Your" sorcerer spells are the ones you have (e.g., the one's you have access to). Again, relatively inofffensive, and I'm not sure how that leads to any sort of a tool to make the radical conclusion that a character who [has] a spell from source X which appears on list Y can't treat that spell as a Y spell.
Again I will reiterate that if you cannot understand my arguments, I cannot trust that you have understood the rules.
I have not implied something that is on the cleric spell list is not "a cleric spell," I have implied that it is not "a spell you can cast as a cleric."
Clerics are a poor class to make your point, since they aren't known casters. A cleric can only cast spells as a cleric that they have prepared. Use sorcerer instead.
Spell Slots
The Sorcerer table shows how many spell slots you have to cast your sorcerer spells of 1st level and higher. To cast one of these sorcerer spells, you must expend a slot of the spell’s level or higher. You regain all expended spell slots when you finish a long rest.
For example, if you know the 1st-level spell burning hands and have a 1st-level and a 2nd-level spell slot available, you can cast burning hands using either slot.
If I haven't learned Burning Hands as a level 1 sorcerer, but have learned it using Magic Initiate (Wizard) (which provides that "You learn that spell "), how do you read that spellcasting feature to not let you cast it as a Sorcerer (in addition to the non-slot casting that the Feat provides, using intelligence)????
1) Is Burning Hands a Sorcerer spell? Yes, incontrovertibly, because it appears on the Sorcerer Spell List.
2) Do you know it? Yes, because your feat has told you that "you learn that spell."
3) Do you have a 1st level spell slot? Yes, you do.
That's it, that's all that's required. If you're reading there to be additional requirements, you need to identify where they are and quote them, Bees.
The part that is important is that spell slots from spellcasting features give you specific scope to use your slots only to cast spells that are associated with one of your classes. If a spell is not associated with one of those classes, you cannot spend slots on it. Associating it with a class is done on a per character basis, not via lists in the back of the book.
You can change your list of prepared spells when you finish a long rest. Preparing a new list of cleric spells requires time spent in prayer and meditation: at least 1 minute per spell level for each spell on your list.
(emphasis mine) I do not know what this rule on changing your prepared spells means according to your interpretation.
.... I kind of see where you're going with that, because the Cleric spellcasting feature starts using the term "your cleric spells" and "list of cleric spells" as shorthand to refer to your list of prepared cleric spells. And so you're extrapolating from that, well, "cleric spells" must only mean the spells you've prepared as a cleric, wherever you see that phrase?
Poor editing for sure, they are clearly referring to "your prepared cleric spells" or your "list of prepared cleric spells." (and they do call them that, several times interspersed). But they didn't write that always, so I see how you're seizing on it. Of course... it doesn't really matter, because ambiguity aside, a cleric can explicitly only cast the spells that they've prepared, and you're only allowed to prepare spells off of the cleric list (or treat some spells as always prepared based on your subclass), with no interaction at all with any other spells you may "know" from feats or other sources.
The thing is, that's just an issue with the cleric, and extrapolating that to have an impact on the KNOWN casters is doing some real violence to the rules. See my post #36 directly above you, and engage with the Sorcerer question. How can a sorcerer not be able to cast a spell they "know" when its 1) on the sorcerer spell list and 2) their sorcerer levels let them cast spells of that slot level and 3) they have a slot available.
"the list of sorcerer spells you know" certainly does NOT include all the sorcerer spells, where did I say that? Or where do you think it's necessary that I say that for my argument in #36 to be consistent?
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjlg4nWl93qAhXGLc0KHUL4AVYQFjAKegQICRAB&url=https://www.sageadvice.eu/2017/12/08/how-do-the-elven-racial-magic-feats-in-xanathars-interact-with-spell-slots/&usg=AOvVaw3cNPyp9aRO6tJW8EsqcMiB
if your a spells “known” caster, the spell you “learn” from a feat is on your class list, your class level is high enough to “know” spells of that level, and you have high enough slots to cast that spell... then you can cast that spell by expending that slot.
I'm not sure what your saying here, this is relating to the wood elf magic feat. The sage advice you just posted goes against your answer? I'm probably missing something but I'm pretty sure the link you posted literally says spells learnt though Wood Elf Magic cannot be cast using spell slots?
"Wood Elf Magic, etc don't say you learn the spell or that it counts as a <Insert Class Here> spell for you."
"They're distinguishing the 1 use you get from the feat from other ways you might have to cast the spell."
What these seem to suggest, is that Wood Elf Magic grants you a racial spell, which doesn't count as a learnt spell because they aren't part of a class list. Because they aren't part of a class list, you can't cast these spells using spell slots (unless you learn the spell though other means, in which case you basically have two separate versions, one racial spell and one learnt spell. If that confuses you, consider the fact that D&D Beyond allows you to prepare Fireball as a wizard, and as a sorcerer at the same time, thus you have a sorcerer fireball and a wizard fireball.)
Other feats like Magic initiate is different because it says that the spells learnt though the feat count as <insert class> spells. Racial feats like this does not say that, thus they work differently.
if I edit a message, most of the time it's because of grammar. The rest of the time I'll put "Edit:" at the bottom.
There are feats that both teach you spells for x uses per day AND let you use spell slots. They all say so, expressly. Wood Elf Magic is not one of them.
A prime example is the new "Shadow Touched" Feat in the newest UA, which says "You can also cast these spells using spell slots you have of the appropriate level. The spells' spellcasting ability is the ability increased by this feat."
Per RAW, Unless a feat says "using spell slots", you can't use spell slots to cast them. The word 'learn' does nothing.
But feel free to house rule as you desire.
https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/01/09/eldritch-knight-with-magic-initiate-feat/
Is the spell you learned from the feat on your classes spell list? Check
is your spell casting class a spells known caster? Check
do you have spell slots to cast the spell at its lowest level or higher? Check
If you follow the flow chart, you’re good to go.
the point of the wording is that prepared casters like the wizard, cleric, paladin, druid, and artificer can’t expend a slot to cast a spell they know without some other features help, because that’s how their class spellcasting works.
it also doesn’t matter, Crawford has stated that it doesn’t seem to effect game balance. they’re probably tired of hearing about it, and are giving the players what they want by releasing the new feats worded in a more liberating way.
Quoting a pre-errata direct answer tweet to an incomplete question doesn't solve anything. This obviously doesn't fit with the current advice in published material, and therefore is outdated and irrelevant. In the strictest sense, Jeremy is right without any context such as "what class is the MI spell associated with?" An EK with MI(wizard) is a known caster using wizard spells; a wizard spell could be cast for an EK with a slot. An EK MI(sorc) should not be able to cast his sorc spell with slots under the post errata spell versions.
So What? That doesn't make it one of "your <class> spells."
So what? That doesn't make the spell one of "your <class> spells."
This is exactly incorrect.
First, each spellcasting feature requires that you cast only spells that are associated with that class; spells learned through racial feats (and just about every source besides Magic Initiate and the spellcasting features themselves) do not come with an associated class. The wording is even more clear when you consider the multiclassing rules-- which in the text says "Each spell you know and prepare is associated with one of your classes, and you use the spellcasting ability of that class when you cast the spell." Second, each spellcasting feature makes a distinction between "your <class> spells and the spells on "the <class> list;" this again is reinforced by the multiclassing rules, since if the class lists were all that mattered then you wouldn't need to associated each spell you internalize with a particular class. Confusing your spells with the class list leads to the obviously incorrect assumption that multiclassed characters could mix and match casting abilities for some spells.
Here is a question: What part of the rules (other than an unwritten assumption) makes you so sure that a spell that you cannot cast because you haven't committed it to memory is one of "your spells?"
How have you learned the spell and yet not committed it to memory?
Are the spells that overlap class lists different? Or is the classes access to those spells the limiting factor?
what makes a classes spell a class spell is if it’s on that particular classes spell list.
im having a hard time finding the video but I remember a sage advice on the d&d channel talking about spell scrolls. He was explaining why there aren’t class specific spell scrolls. The answer was because there are no class specific spells, only the classes spell list. For example, cure wounds is the same spell regardless of if an artificer, bard, cleric, druid, paladin, or ranger casts it.
i wish they would go back to label and time stamp those talks.
Again, if you can't at least understand my post, I will not take your advice on rule reading.
I will ask the question again: What part of the rules (other than an unwritten assumption) makes you so sure that a spell that you cannot cast because you haven't committed it to memory -- but is on your class list -- is one of "your spells?"
No, there aren't different versions of spells for spell scrolls. But if you know cure wounds as a Bard, you don't get to choose add your wisdom modifier to it unless you also commit it to memory as one of the classes that use Wis for their casting stat.
Bees, we have disagreed on this in the past, but there is much for evidence for “wizard spells” meaning “spells on the wizard spell list” than there is for it meaning “spells you learned because you’re a wizard or magic initiate (wizard).”
- the wizard spell list is a list... of wizard spells, according to the plain English language meaning of those words
- the term is never defined any other way, other than being mentioned in close proximity to reference to the wizard spell list
I could spin off into chasing RAI and RAF on this, but at the end of the day, the simplest and plainest reading of the Spellcasting sections is that “x spells” are spells on “x spell list” (and also those spells you specifically treat as being on that list as a result of an x subclass feature).
the multiclassing section is the only text anyone ever points to to contradict this reading, but it’s plain language has NOTHING to do with whether a spell can be simultaneously a wizard spell and a cleric spell... it just says, the class you learned/prepared it from is the class that you use to determine its spellcasting modifier. It doesn’t say anything more than that, and certainly doesn’t yank spells off of spell lists.
think of “wizard spell” as an equivalent of “spanish word.” Maybe you don’t speak Spanish, only English, but you know the word “patio.” Congratulations, you know a “Spanish word,” even though your English Language feature only really let you use that word in the context of it also being an English word.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
If the list of your cleric spells was the cleric spell list plus some spells, they wouldn't have to, in the same sentence, refer to those two separate things. That in it self is complete evidence that they're not the same.
Exactly, and we need look no further than the Arcana Domain Cleric to see it is true.
Arcana Clerics get to pick some spells from the Wizard spell list. For them, those spells are treated as "your Cleric spells", but they are not on the "Cleric spell list".
Racial spells are not associated with any class. They are inherent magical capabilities. Why can an Elf Wizard not put their racial spell into their spellbook? Even if it's on the Wizard list? Because it's an Elf spell. Conceptually, it's like how a Sorcerer understands magic. They don't know how the spell works; they just know it does. It's an inherent ability that is not analogous to structured spellcasting theory.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
“Your cleric spells” are 1) cleric spells (spells on clerics spell list) and 2) other non-cleric spells not on that list, which your cleric subclass tells you to treat as cleric spells. That is precisely what I just said, and in no way supports your argument???
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
What makes you think this other than an unwritten assumption (that by your own admission is at odds with other rules)? The rules clearly make a distinction between spells that you cast and a list that it refers to as "the <class> list."
Can we establish a shared NPC that we're talking about here, to ground things a little?
Johnny Magic, Cleric (Arcana) 1/Sorcerer (Divine) 1
Everything on the Cleric Spell list, obviously, because
In the Chapter 11 spells listing, in case that wasn't clear enough already, this "cleric spell list" is again presented as being a list of.... "cleric spells." The section for clerics is titled "Cleric Spells", and at this point, I hope we can all agree that whatever else may be going on, the "Cleric Spells" spell list in Chapter 11 are certainly "cleric spells." This doesn't require any unwritten assumptions, just us reading each section we've been directed to to learn that Johnny casts "cleric spells", and that those are found on the "cleric spell list," which is titled "cleric spells." Nice.
Of course, as a cleric, the "cleric spell list" is not the only place that Johnny's "cleric spells" are found. Domain spells provide:
This both tells us affirmatively that these extra spells (including Magic Missile, not ordinarily on the cleric spell list) provided by his domain are also "cleric spells,"... but also by the use of "nonetheless" reaffirms the premise that ordinarily a "cleric spell" is a spell that "appear[s] on the cleric spell list." Which again, is exactly what we expected!
All relatively inoffensive so far, right? Cleric spells are spells on the cleric spell list, and spells that our class tells us are cleric spells. But what about Sorcerer spells?
2. What are Johnny's "Sorcerer" spells?
Just as with Cleric, a Sorcerer provides that:
Recourse to chapter 11, again, explicitly labels this list of spells as "Sorcerer spells."
Where is the language which would suggest that spells on that list that you haven't yet learned are not Sorcerer spells? There is none, as a Level 1 sorcerer, we nevertheless know that level 2 spells on that Sorcerer Spell List like Alter Self are "sorcerer spells," which is important... because otherwise we'd never be able to learn more sorcerer spells!
If a spell isn't a sorcerer spell until we already know it, then there are no sorcerer spells from which to choose at level up. If instead a sorcerer spell is a spell on the sorcerer spell list.... no problemo!
So we're satisfied (or should be) that the "sorcerer spell list" is a list of "sorcerer spells," even though we've only learned a small handful of those spells from our sorcerer levels. But also, we have a subclass feature which expands "sorcerer spell" even further!
As a divine sorcerer, that means that for example Cure Wounds is now a "sorcerer spell."
Has this in any way challenged the understanding that everything on the "sorcerer spell list" is also a "sorcerer spell"? No, why would it? Has this in any way made Cure Wounds stop being a Cleric spell? No, why would it?
These features all do what they say they do, nothing more. Spell Lists tell you that they give you the list of "x spells," and they do that. Subclass features that let you treat additional spells not on those spell lists as "x spells" do that, and nothing more. The multiclass rules that tell you to pick an attribute that's associated with a spell instead of using any spellcasting attribute from any of your classes does that, but it doesn't do anything else, like shrink the definition of "x spell."
I just honestly do not understand where your camp's perspective comes from that a cleric spell or sorcerer spell or anything else would be anything other than what those classes' spellcasting features tell you it is, which is 1) a spell on that list, and 2) any other spell that you are told to treat as a class spell.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
*caveat: "sorcerer spell" vs. "your sorcerer spell", is that the difference you're zeroing in on?
Sorcerer spells are all spells on the sorcerer spell list. "Your" sorcerer spells are the ones you have (e.g., the one's you have access to). Again, relatively inofffensive, and I'm not sure how that leads to any sort of a tool to make the radical conclusion that a character who [has] a spell from source X which appears on list Y can't treat that spell as a Y spell.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Again I will reiterate that if you cannot understand my arguments, I cannot trust that you have understood the rules.
I have not implied something that is on the cleric spell list is not "a cleric spell," I have implied that it is not "a spell you can cast as a cleric."
Clerics are a poor class to make your point, since they aren't known casters. A cleric can only cast spells as a cleric that they have prepared. Use sorcerer instead.
If I haven't learned Burning Hands as a level 1 sorcerer, but have learned it using Magic Initiate (Wizard) (which provides that "You learn that spell "), how do you read that spellcasting feature to not let you cast it as a Sorcerer (in addition to the non-slot casting that the Feat provides, using intelligence)????
1) Is Burning Hands a Sorcerer spell? Yes, incontrovertibly, because it appears on the Sorcerer Spell List.
2) Do you know it? Yes, because your feat has told you that "you learn that spell."
3) Do you have a 1st level spell slot? Yes, you do.
That's it, that's all that's required. If you're reading there to be additional requirements, you need to identify where they are and quote them, Bees.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
The part that is important is that spell slots from spellcasting features give you specific scope to use your slots only to cast spells that are associated with one of your classes. If a spell is not associated with one of those classes, you cannot spend slots on it. Associating it with a class is done on a per character basis, not via lists in the back of the book.
(emphasis mine) I do not know what this rule on changing your prepared spells means according to your interpretation.
You continue to use an unwritten assumption that "list of sorcerer spells you know" includes the entire sorcerer spell list. The rules don't say that.
.... I kind of see where you're going with that, because the Cleric spellcasting feature starts using the term "your cleric spells" and "list of cleric spells" as shorthand to refer to your list of prepared cleric spells. And so you're extrapolating from that, well, "cleric spells" must only mean the spells you've prepared as a cleric, wherever you see that phrase?
Poor editing for sure, they are clearly referring to "your prepared cleric spells" or your "list of prepared cleric spells." (and they do call them that, several times interspersed). But they didn't write that always, so I see how you're seizing on it. Of course... it doesn't really matter, because ambiguity aside, a cleric can explicitly only cast the spells that they've prepared, and you're only allowed to prepare spells off of the cleric list (or treat some spells as always prepared based on your subclass), with no interaction at all with any other spells you may "know" from feats or other sources.
The thing is, that's just an issue with the cleric, and extrapolating that to have an impact on the KNOWN casters is doing some real violence to the rules. See my post #36 directly above you, and engage with the Sorcerer question. How can a sorcerer not be able to cast a spell they "know" when its 1) on the sorcerer spell list and 2) their sorcerer levels let them cast spells of that slot level and 3) they have a slot available.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
"the list of sorcerer spells you know" certainly does NOT include all the sorcerer spells, where did I say that? Or where do you think it's necessary that I say that for my argument in #36 to be consistent?
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.