like l get that you simply have to say to the dm "in thieves cant i say:"we be good" " but like,in game,how does it work? like l know its a code but like,is there a cypher? is it possable to learn it irl? l heard a story about "tommy twelve fingers" (l dont remember where) and how it was a code to plan a robbery but like...ug l cant properly explain ?!!?!?!?!!?
I think the best way to think of it is something like rhyming slang. The words you’re using are real and comprehensible to anyone else who speaks Common, but the actual meaning is transferred in such a way that nothing makes sense unless you know the cant.
I like to compare it to Diner Lingo. Like... "Put it on a plank and make it cry" means, "Serve it on toast and add onions". Remember that conversations in Thieve's Cant take longer than conversations in Common, so it's mostly characters having mundane conversations where they slot code words in at key moments.
It’s kind of analogous to the idea of having an entire conversation consisting of nothing but movie quotes. Or a conversation consisting entirely of inside jokes. They are distinct references that only people with a shared background of experiences or knowledge would get.
Other examples might be the kinds of sign-countersign you would see in an old spy movie. Any occupational slang like the diner slang Transmorpher mentioned, or military/medical jargon. Like when a doctor mentions “a positive finding at the intercostal between the 5th and 6th just medial of the left mid-clavicular” and all the normal people in the room are like, “WTF?!?!?”
The language hasn’t changed, the meaning of the vocabulary and context has. To be honest, if “We be good” followed by a questioning glance means: “Everything is set for the plan next Tuesday. Kaila and Joradon got the alchemists’ fire, Fransa is all set with the TeleportSpell Scroll, and I paid off the city watch. Do you have the counterfeit dragon egg?” Then that might just be “thieves’ cant.”
oh so its like in movies where the tec guy gives a lot of technobabble and everyone else is like "speak english"?
Kind of, except to everyone else it sounds like a perfectly normal conversation about the weather, or turnip harvests or something. Only the “thieves” recognize the technobabble.
oh so its like in movies where the tec guy gives a lot of technobabble and everyone else is like "speak english"?
Kind of, except to everyone else it sounds like a perfectly normal conversation about the weather, or turnip harvests or something. Only the “thieves” recognize the technobabble.
ah,ok cool. i think i understand now. its like how if you are a part of a fandom,other people in the fandom can fully understand the fenese of what you are saying,but to others,they know you are speaking words,but the lingo goes over their heads. like if l sliped tardis into a conversation,the non dr who fans would have no idea what l mean,but the dr who fans would?
oh so its like in movies where the tec guy gives a lot of technobabble and everyone else is like "speak english"?
Kind of, except to everyone else it sounds like a perfectly normal conversation about the weather, or turnip harvests or something. Only the “thieves” recognize the technobabble.
ah,ok cool. i think i understand now. its like how if you are a part of a fandom,other people in the fandom can fully understand the fenese of what you are saying,but to others,they know you are speaking words,but the lingo (like T.A.R.D.I.S.) goes over their heads.
oh so its like in movies where the tec guy gives a lot of technobabble and everyone else is like "speak english"?
Eh, not really. That's just an example of specific words in a language that aren't commonly understood. Anyone can look up what those words mean in a dictionary, and the meaning is clear.
Thieves' Cant is the utilization of common language in a way that is not clear to speakers of the same language. "I'll take an order of scrambled eggs & ham, and a side of hash. He'll have the potato salad." is a straight-forward phrase that has a common meaning when spoken in daily activity, yet the same phrase can have a completely different meaning when spoken to someone else who knows Thieves' Cant. To such a person, the meaning could be along the lines of "I think we're about to get jumped. I'll handle the big guy and his friend, you get the two glaring at us from the doorway."
Another common way of thinking about Thieves' Cant is like you're using a cypher where only portions of what is spoken/written holds meaning: the first letter of each word, every third word, last word of each sentence, etc. Those familiar with Thieves' Cant are able to essentially filter out the non-meaningful bits to see the "real" message.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Imagine two people having a conversation about farming, and how the crops are doing this year. To anyone else, nothing worth noting - just two folks talking about farming.
To each of those two people, however, every third or fourth word conveys a different meaning. When one says "wheat" with their left pinky curled into their palm, it has a specific meaning that has nothing to do with the definition of the word "wheat". When another says "my horse went lame pulling the plow from Cobb Field" while brushing his right hand behind his ear, it has a meaning that doesn't follow the natural language of those words at all.
It's a form of cypher, yes. One explicitly designed to allow its speakers to disguise larcenous criminal talk as perfectly ordinary, trivial conversation. It can be learned because somebody had to teach it to rogues in the first place. Whether or not that means non-rogues can learn it is up to the DM, but frankly it seems stupid not to allow that if a character's background would mean they knew thieves' cant.
I remember an old mob movie in which whenever one of them walked into a place they would rub their nose a certain way and everyone else who did it too was “in da gang.” Whenever they would talk about something larcenous they would discuss groceries or buying pastries or whatever, but they would rub their nose the same way so that they knew it was all euphemisms for hits and bank robberies. If you rubbed your nose and told a guy to “Go over to Jimmy’s and give him a couple cannoli for me.” The other guy would see him rub his nose and understand what he meant was “Go over to Jimmy’s and put a couple bullets in him.” If a guy rubbed his nose and said “Hey, uh, next week I gotta go to the store and do some shopping. You wanna gimme a ride I’ll pay for gas?” Then the other guy saw the nose rub and understood it meant “I’m planning a robbery next week. I need a getaway driver if you’re interested.”
In my home game thieve's cant is a version of the Drasnian Secret Language from the David Eddings' books. Small finger movements, like sign language, that are easy to hide and you can be talking about something completely different at the same time. In the cannon of my world it's derived from the common version of sign language, which looks like normal ASL.
In my home game thieve's cant is a version of the Drasnian Secret Language from the David Eddings' books. Small finger movements, like sign language, that are easy to hide and you can be talking about something completely different at the same time. In the cannon of my world it's derived from the common version of sign language, which looks like normal ASL.
That was in the Belgariad/Malorean not the Eleniad/Tamuli, right? I forgot all about that!
I really like the idea of including a sign language element to thieves cant. It reminds me a bit of something in my current campaign where undercommon includes a complete sign language component (is that from anything? Or is it just something my dm came up with?)
The Tamarians spoke entirely by allegory, referencing mythological and historical people and events from their culture. As a result, Federationuniversal translators – although they could successfully translate the individual words and sentence structure – were unable to convey the symbolic meaning they represented. Without prior knowledge of the Tamarians' history and legends, a word-by-word translation was of no use to someone attempting to communicate with them. This language barrier led to the isolation of the Tamarian people after all attempts at communication had failed.
For example, instead of asking for cooperation, they would use a phrase such as "Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra", because their culture's stories include a tale of two Tamarians, Darmok and Jalad, who were brought together while fighting a common foe on an island called Tanagra. The problem with communicating in this fashion is that without understanding the context of the reference, the metaphor has no meaning. While explaining the structure of the language, CounselorDeanna Troi gave the example that "Juliet on her balcony" could be used to describe a romantic situation, but it is impossible to understand if the listener does not know who Juliet is, or why she was on the balcony. (TNG: "Darmok")
In essence, the spoken element of Thieves' Cant literally involves speaking in a regular language but the underlying meanings are hidden using indirect references/allusions. A modern example used in movies or popular culture may be something like "the eagle has landed" as meaning "the president has arrived" (though in fact, "Eagle" was only the Secret Service code name for Bill Clinton). Obviously, for thieves' cant to be effective, it does need to sound like a somewhat natural conversation, which is why the feature says it takes 4 times as long to communicate a message in thieves' cant - you can't just be exchanging obviously coded messages.
Darmok is my favorite Next Gen episode. That’s kind of what I was getting at by referring to an entire conversation comprised entirely of movie references.
For example, if I or one of my friends mentions “David Bowie’s codpiece” it is a clear reference to the movie Labyrinth. (They put him in the costume and someone took one look at him and said something along the lines of “This is a children’s movie, you gotta do something about that!” So the costume designer added a codpiece to his costume). Depending on both how we say “David Bowie’s Codpiece” and the context of the conversation the phrase might mean different things:
It might be a reference to something rather large. (Ahem).
It might be a reference to something particularly noticeable.
It might be a reference to a smart decision.
It might be a reference to a last minute save.
It might be a reference to something with a lot of movement. (Ahem).
It might be a reference to something inappropriate.
It might be a reference to something rediculous.
The meanings of the words “David Bowie’s Codpiece” never changes, but the phrase has different meanings to us depending on context and intonation (the way we use it). And to anyone outside of our circle they have absolutely no idea what we’re talking about or why it’s so funny.
If we say “Gruber” we all know that we mean the villain from Die Hard, usually referring to his a last scene falling off the building. So referring that might mean we are talking about a hero overcoming great odds, or a villainy getting their comeuppance, or it might even be a reference to coming so close only to fail at the last moment, or it could be a reference to an epic fail. But nobody else has any idea what we mean if we say “Don’t pull a Gruber.”
The Tamarians spoke entirely by allegory, referencing mythological and historical people and events from their culture. As a result, Federationuniversal translators – although they could successfully translate the individual words and sentence structure – were unable to convey the symbolic meaning they represented. Without prior knowledge of the Tamarians' history and legends, a word-by-word translation was of no use to someone attempting to communicate with them. This language barrier led to the isolation of the Tamarian people after all attempts at communication had failed.
For example, instead of asking for cooperation, they would use a phrase such as "Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra", because their culture's stories include a tale of two Tamarians, Darmok and Jalad, who were brought together while fighting a common foe on an island called Tanagra. The problem with communicating in this fashion is that without understanding the context of the reference, the metaphor has no meaning. While explaining the structure of the language, CounselorDeanna Troi gave the example that "Juliet on her balcony" could be used to describe a romantic situation, but it is impossible to understand if the listener does not know who Juliet is, or why she was on the balcony. (TNG: "Darmok")
In essence, the spoken element of Thieves' Cant literally involves speaking in a regular language but the underlying meanings are hidden using indirect references/allusions. A modern example used in movies or popular culture may be something like "the eagle has landed" as meaning "the president has arrived" (though in fact, "Eagle" was only the Secret Service code name for Bill Clinton). Obviously, for thieves' cant to be effective, it does need to sound like a somewhat natural conversation, which is why the feature says it takes 4 times as long to communicate a message in thieves' cant - you can't just be exchanging obviously coded messages.
I find it hilarious that Crawford thinks that Tamarian is like Thieves' Cant; it really isn't.
The Tamarian language makes sense to everyone that speaks Tamarian, and the allusions do not have double-meanings. If you understand Tamarian, you understand what all Tamarians are saying. The translators not working was a laughable macguffin (as all "universal translator" plot devices typically are) because of course it couldn't decipher the meaning. Allegorical language structures are like non-phonetic languages; you can't assume that components have static meaning in a vacuum.
Now if someone were to use Tamarian in such a way that it contained a double-meaning that only some Tamarian speakers would understand, that would be Thieves' Cant.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
CANT: Thief1: "Oy! Where's that cat finding milk?" *whirling a finger in the air as if trying to remember*
Thief2:"You'll see the milk next to the broke'd gaffe." *scratching the back of his head and patting down the hair after*
Common: (Hey. What's the pub where Katie drinks?)
(I think it's the Broken Oar Inn.)
CODE: Cat+whirling finger=Katie Finding milk+Cat meaning Katie=drinking whatever Katie usually likes Scratching head=I think Patting down hair=Inn Broke'd gaffe+Inn from previous=could only mean Broken Oar Inn locally
Human. Male. Possibly. Don't be a divider. My characters' backgrounds are written like instruction manuals rather than stories. My opinion and preferences don't mean you're wrong. I am 99.7603% convinced that the digital dice are messing with me. I roll high when nobody's looking and low when anyone else can see.🎲 “It's a bit early to be thinking about an epitaph. No?” will be my epitaph.
I find it hilarious that Crawford thinks that Tamarian is like Thieves' Cant; it really isn't.
The Tamarian language makes sense to everyone that speaks Tamarian, and the allusions do not have double-meanings. If you understand Tamarian, you understand what all Tamarians are saying. The translators not working was a laughable macguffin (as all "universal translator" plot devices typically are) because of course it couldn't decipher the meaning. Allegorical language structures are like non-phonetic languages; you can't assume that components have static meaning in a vacuum.
Now if someone were to use Tamarian in such a way that it contained a double-meaning that only some Tamarian speakers would understand, that would be Thieves' Cant.
Yeah, it's not a perfect analogy - just one that happens to make sense in the context of the question he was responding to (about "translating" coded vs. literal meaning for comprehend languages).
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like l get that you simply have to say to the dm "in thieves cant i say:"we be good" " but like,in game,how does it work? like l know its a code but like,is there a cypher? is it possable to learn it irl? l heard a story about "tommy twelve fingers" (l dont remember where) and how it was a code to plan a robbery but like...ug l cant properly explain ?!!?!?!?!!?
edit: l think l have the idea,thanks everyone.
I think the best way to think of it is something like rhyming slang. The words you’re using are real and comprehensible to anyone else who speaks Common, but the actual meaning is transferred in such a way that nothing makes sense unless you know the cant.
I like to compare it to Diner Lingo. Like... "Put it on a plank and make it cry" means, "Serve it on toast and add onions". Remember that conversations in Thieve's Cant take longer than conversations in Common, so it's mostly characters having mundane conversations where they slot code words in at key moments.
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It’s kind of analogous to the idea of having an entire conversation consisting of nothing but movie quotes. Or a conversation consisting entirely of inside jokes. They are distinct references that only people with a shared background of experiences or knowledge would get.
Other examples might be the kinds of sign-countersign you would see in an old spy movie. Any occupational slang like the diner slang Transmorpher mentioned, or military/medical jargon. Like when a doctor mentions “a positive finding at the intercostal between the 5th and 6th just medial of the left mid-clavicular” and all the normal people in the room are like, “WTF?!?!?”
The language hasn’t changed, the meaning of the vocabulary and context has. To be honest, if “We be good” followed by a questioning glance means: “Everything is set for the plan next Tuesday. Kaila and Joradon got the alchemists’ fire, Fransa is all set with the Teleport Spell Scroll, and I paid off the city watch. Do you have the counterfeit dragon egg?” Then that might just be “thieves’ cant.”
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oh so its like in movies where the tec guy gives a lot of technobabble and everyone else is like "speak english"?
Kind of, except to everyone else it sounds like a perfectly normal conversation about the weather, or turnip harvests or something. Only the “thieves” recognize the technobabble.
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ah,ok cool. i think i understand now. its like how if you are a part of a fandom,other people in the fandom can fully understand the fenese of what you are saying,but to others,they know you are speaking words,but the lingo goes over their heads. like if l sliped tardis into a conversation,the non dr who fans would have no idea what l mean,but the dr who fans would?
Pretty much. Reminds me of something....
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Eh, not really. That's just an example of specific words in a language that aren't commonly understood. Anyone can look up what those words mean in a dictionary, and the meaning is clear.
Thieves' Cant is the utilization of common language in a way that is not clear to speakers of the same language. "I'll take an order of scrambled eggs & ham, and a side of hash. He'll have the potato salad." is a straight-forward phrase that has a common meaning when spoken in daily activity, yet the same phrase can have a completely different meaning when spoken to someone else who knows Thieves' Cant. To such a person, the meaning could be along the lines of "I think we're about to get jumped. I'll handle the big guy and his friend, you get the two glaring at us from the doorway."
Another common way of thinking about Thieves' Cant is like you're using a cypher where only portions of what is spoken/written holds meaning: the first letter of each word, every third word, last word of each sentence, etc. Those familiar with Thieves' Cant are able to essentially filter out the non-meaningful bits to see the "real" message.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Imagine two people having a conversation about farming, and how the crops are doing this year. To anyone else, nothing worth noting - just two folks talking about farming.
To each of those two people, however, every third or fourth word conveys a different meaning. When one says "wheat" with their left pinky curled into their palm, it has a specific meaning that has nothing to do with the definition of the word "wheat". When another says "my horse went lame pulling the plow from Cobb Field" while brushing his right hand behind his ear, it has a meaning that doesn't follow the natural language of those words at all.
It's a form of cypher, yes. One explicitly designed to allow its speakers to disguise larcenous criminal talk as perfectly ordinary, trivial conversation. It can be learned because somebody had to teach it to rogues in the first place. Whether or not that means non-rogues can learn it is up to the DM, but frankly it seems stupid not to allow that if a character's background would mean they knew thieves' cant.
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I remember an old mob movie in which whenever one of them walked into a place they would rub their nose a certain way and everyone else who did it too was “in da gang.” Whenever they would talk about something larcenous they would discuss groceries or buying pastries or whatever, but they would rub their nose the same way so that they knew it was all euphemisms for hits and bank robberies. If you rubbed your nose and told a guy to “Go over to Jimmy’s and give him a couple cannoli for me.” The other guy would see him rub his nose and understand what he meant was “Go over to Jimmy’s and put a couple bullets in him.” If a guy rubbed his nose and said “Hey, uh, next week I gotta go to the store and do some shopping. You wanna gimme a ride I’ll pay for gas?” Then the other guy saw the nose rub and understood it meant “I’m planning a robbery next week. I need a getaway driver if you’re interested.”
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InsiderIn my home game thieve's cant is a version of the Drasnian Secret Language from the David Eddings' books. Small finger movements, like sign language, that are easy to hide and you can be talking about something completely different at the same time. In the cannon of my world it's derived from the common version of sign language, which looks like normal ASL.
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That was in the Belgariad/Malorean not the Eleniad/Tamuli, right? I forgot all about that!
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I really like the idea of including a sign language element to thieves cant. It reminds me a bit of something in my current campaign where undercommon includes a complete sign language component (is that from anything? Or is it just something my dm came up with?)
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ModeratorIn this Twitter exchange, Jeremy Crawford compares it to the Tamarian language in the Star Trek: The Next Generation episode "Darmok": https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/774041205084610561
For reference: https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Tamarian_language
In essence, the spoken element of Thieves' Cant literally involves speaking in a regular language but the underlying meanings are hidden using indirect references/allusions. A modern example used in movies or popular culture may be something like "the eagle has landed" as meaning "the president has arrived" (though in fact, "Eagle" was only the Secret Service code name for Bill Clinton). Obviously, for thieves' cant to be effective, it does need to sound like a somewhat natural conversation, which is why the feature says it takes 4 times as long to communicate a message in thieves' cant - you can't just be exchanging obviously coded messages.
Darmok is my favorite Next Gen episode. That’s kind of what I was getting at by referring to an entire conversation comprised entirely of movie references.
For example, if I or one of my friends mentions “David Bowie’s codpiece” it is a clear reference to the movie Labyrinth. (They put him in the costume and someone took one look at him and said something along the lines of “This is a children’s movie, you gotta do something about that!” So the costume designer added a codpiece to his costume). Depending on both how we say “David Bowie’s Codpiece” and the context of the conversation the phrase might mean different things:
The meanings of the words “David Bowie’s Codpiece” never changes, but the phrase has different meanings to us depending on context and intonation (the way we use it). And to anyone outside of our circle they have absolutely no idea what we’re talking about or why it’s so funny.
If we say “Gruber” we all know that we mean the villain from Die Hard, usually referring to his a last scene falling off the building. So referring that might mean we are talking about a hero overcoming great odds, or a villainy getting their comeuppance, or it might even be a reference to coming so close only to fail at the last moment, or it could be a reference to an epic fail. But nobody else has any idea what we mean if we say “Don’t pull a Gruber.”
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I find it hilarious that Crawford thinks that Tamarian is like Thieves' Cant; it really isn't.
The Tamarian language makes sense to everyone that speaks Tamarian, and the allusions do not have double-meanings. If you understand Tamarian, you understand what all Tamarians are saying. The translators not working was a laughable macguffin (as all "universal translator" plot devices typically are) because of course it couldn't decipher the meaning. Allegorical language structures are like non-phonetic languages; you can't assume that components have static meaning in a vacuum.
Now if someone were to use Tamarian in such a way that it contained a double-meaning that only some Tamarian speakers would understand, that would be Thieves' Cant.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
CANT:
Thief1: "Oy! Where's that cat finding milk?" *whirling a finger in the air as if trying to remember*
Thief2:"You'll see the milk next to the broke'd gaffe." *scratching the back of his head and patting down the hair after*
Common:
(Hey. What's the pub where Katie drinks?)
(I think it's the Broken Oar Inn.)
CODE:
Cat+whirling finger=Katie
Finding milk+Cat meaning Katie=drinking whatever Katie usually likes
Scratching head=I think
Patting down hair=Inn
Broke'd gaffe+Inn from previous=could only mean Broken Oar Inn locally
Human. Male. Possibly. Don't be a divider.
My characters' backgrounds are written like instruction manuals rather than stories. My opinion and preferences don't mean you're wrong.
I am 99.7603% convinced that the digital dice are messing with me. I roll high when nobody's looking and low when anyone else can see.🎲
“It's a bit early to be thinking about an epitaph. No?” will be my epitaph.
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ModeratorYeah, it's not a perfect analogy - just one that happens to make sense in the context of the question he was responding to (about "translating" coded vs. literal meaning for comprehend languages).