Just got my Shadow Sorc to Level 7 and thinking about using Sickening Radiance.
My question is this: when I cast the spell does the damage occur instantly, or does it only start on the enemies turn?
My heart says it would start instantly, as the light is there, so the effect would occur instantly. My brain says having one spell do a potential 8d10 damage per combat round is a little OP. Thoughts?
When a creature moves into the spell’s area for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there, that creature must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or take 4d10 radiant damage, ...
The trigger for the damage happening is one of the following:
"A creature moves into the spells area for the first time on a turn."
or
"A creature starts its turn inside the spells area"
Note that in both cases, they get a saving throw to avoid the damage and exhaustion.
You can however forcibly move creatures into the spell. Someone could use physical effects or magic to shove a creature into it, which would immediately trigger the first condition "A creature moves into the spells area for the first time on a turn." and then when that creature takes a turn, it would trigger again.
When a creature moves into the spell’s area for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there, that creature must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or take 4d10 radiant damage, ...
The trigger for the damage happening is one of the following:
"A creature moves into the spells area for the first time on a turn."
or
"A creature starts its turn inside the spells area"
Note that in both cases, they get a saving throw to avoid the damage and exhaustion.
You can however forcibly move creatures into the spell. Someone could use physical effects or magic to shove a creature into it, which would immediately trigger the first condition "A creature moves into the spells area for the first time on a turn." and then when that creature takes a turn, it would trigger again.
I hope that helps! 😊
The spell is worded poorly regarding the exhaustion. The way it's written, "that creature must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or take 4d10 radiant damage, and it suffers one level of exhaustion and emits a dim, greenish light in a 5-foot radius . . . " makes it ambiguous as to whether the exhaustion and light-emitting are tied to the save, or happen no matter what. I guess the consensus is that a successful save prevents everything?
When a creature moves into the spell’s area for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there, that creature must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or take 4d10 radiant damage, ...
The trigger for the damage happening is one of the following:
"A creature moves into the spells area for the first time on a turn."
or
"A creature starts its turn inside the spells area"
Note that in both cases, they get a saving throw to avoid the damage and exhaustion.
You can however forcibly move creatures into the spell. Someone could use physical effects or magic to shove a creature into it, which would immediately trigger the first condition "A creature moves into the spells area for the first time on a turn." and then when that creature takes a turn, it would trigger again.
I hope that helps! 😊
The spell is worded poorly regarding the exhaustion. The way it's written, "that creature must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or take 4d10 radiant damage, and it suffers one level of exhaustion and emits a dim, greenish light in a 5-foot radius . . . " makes it ambiguous as to whether the exhaustion and light-emitting are tied to the save, or happen no matter what. I guess the consensus is that a successful save prevents everything?
I don’t think the RAW is ambiguous at all. The exhaustion and light are a separate clause from the CON save. CON save prevents damage, doesn’t prevent anything else. RAI may be different; in general though, a 4th-level spell can probably be expected to be intended to do SOMETHING, even on a successful save, so my money is on RAI matching the RAW here.
When a creature moves into the spell’s area for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there, that creature must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or take 4d10 radiant damage, ...
The trigger for the damage happening is one of the following:
"A creature moves into the spells area for the first time on a turn."
or
"A creature starts its turn inside the spells area"
Note that in both cases, they get a saving throw to avoid the damage and exhaustion.
You can however forcibly move creatures into the spell. Someone could use physical effects or magic to shove a creature into it, which would immediately trigger the first condition "A creature moves into the spells area for the first time on a turn." and then when that creature takes a turn, it would trigger again.
I hope that helps! 😊
The spell is worded poorly regarding the exhaustion. The way it's written, "that creature must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or take 4d10 radiant damage, and it suffers one level of exhaustion and emits a dim, greenish light in a 5-foot radius . . . " makes it ambiguous as to whether the exhaustion and light-emitting are tied to the save, or happen no matter what. I guess the consensus is that a successful save prevents everything?
I don’t think the RAW is ambiguous at all. The exhaustion and light are a separate clause from the CON save. CON save prevents damage, doesn’t prevent anything else. RAI may be different; in general though, a 4th-level spell can probably be expected to be intended to do SOMETHING, even on a successful save, so my money is on RAI matching the RAW here.
I agree with your reading as a matter of grammar, but Jeremy Crawford disagrees with us:
In any case, it would certainly be easy to reword the spell in a less confusing manner:
"When a creature moves into the spell’s area for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there, it suffers one level of exhaustion and emits a dim, greenish light in a 5-foot radius. That creature must also make a constitution saving throw. On a failed save, it takes 4d10 radiant damage."
-OR-
"When a creature moves into the spell’s area for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there, it must make a Constitution saving throw. On a failed save, the creature takes 4d10 radiant damage, suffers one level of exhaustion and emits a dim, greenish light in a 5-foot radius."
When a creature moves into the spell’s area for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there, that creature must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or take 4d10 radiant damage, ...
The trigger for the damage happening is one of the following:
"A creature moves into the spells area for the first time on a turn."
or
"A creature starts its turn inside the spells area"
Note that in both cases, they get a saving throw to avoid the damage and exhaustion.
You can however forcibly move creatures into the spell. Someone could use physical effects or magic to shove a creature into it, which would immediately trigger the first condition "A creature moves into the spells area for the first time on a turn." and then when that creature takes a turn, it would trigger again.
I hope that helps! 😊
The spell is worded poorly regarding the exhaustion. The way it's written, "that creature must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or take 4d10 radiant damage, and it suffers one level of exhaustion and emits a dim, greenish light in a 5-foot radius . . . " makes it ambiguous as to whether the exhaustion and light-emitting are tied to the save, or happen no matter what. I guess the consensus is that a successful save prevents everything?
I don’t think the RAW is ambiguous at all. The exhaustion and light are a separate clause from the CON save. CON save prevents damage, doesn’t prevent anything else. RAI may be different; in general though, a 4th-level spell can probably be expected to be intended to do SOMETHING, even on a successful save, so my money is on RAI matching the RAW here.
The main issue with that is that the spell will then kill any and every creature in 6 rounds if you can prevent them from leaving the area of effect. 6 levels of exhaustion is dead. 5 levels prevents movement so if they haven't left by then death is guaranteed in one more round. This is a pretty powerful effect for a fourth level spell. Cast forcecage (or maybe a hemisphere wall of force or something else to constrain its movement) on an ancient dragon, cast sickening radiance (and if the exhaustion has no save) it will be dead in 6 rounds.
I think most people play that all the spell effects are contingent on failing the save but I could be wrong.
When a creature moves into the spell’s area for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there, that creature must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or take 4d10 radiant damage, ...
The trigger for the damage happening is one of the following:
"A creature moves into the spells area for the first time on a turn."
or
"A creature starts its turn inside the spells area"
Note that in both cases, they get a saving throw to avoid the damage and exhaustion.
You can however forcibly move creatures into the spell. Someone could use physical effects or magic to shove a creature into it, which would immediately trigger the first condition "A creature moves into the spells area for the first time on a turn." and then when that creature takes a turn, it would trigger again.
I hope that helps! 😊
I don't think this is accurate. IIRC, forced movement does not trigger these types of conditionals, and that's specifically to avoid these kinds of ping-pong tactics.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
So you're saying if you shoved someone in there, it wouldn't affect them until the beginning of their turn when they satisfy the "or starts their turn there" qualifier?
When a creature moves into the spell’s area for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there, that creature must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or take 4d10 radiant damage, ...
The trigger for the damage happening is one of the following:
"A creature moves into the spells area for the first time on a turn."
or
"A creature starts its turn inside the spells area"
Note that in both cases, they get a saving throw to avoid the damage and exhaustion.
You can however forcibly move creatures into the spell. Someone could use physical effects or magic to shove a creature into it, which would immediately trigger the first condition "A creature moves into the spells area for the first time on a turn." and then when that creature takes a turn, it would trigger again.
I hope that helps! 😊
I don't think this is accurate. IIRC, forced movement does not trigger these types of conditionals.
Being forced into an area-effect spell does trigger any applicable effects, just like forced movement off the edge of a cliff triggers the falling damage. The only time I'm aware of that there's a distinction between "forced movement" and "forced to use your own movement" is with attacks of opportunity.
The spell's description simply says "when a creature moves into the spell’s area for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there" it takes the damage. It doesn't say it needs to use its own movement to enter the area. Moreover, it wouldn't be entering the area on "a" turn (rather than "its" turn) unless it could be forced into the area.
When a creature moves into the spell’s area for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there, that creature must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or take 4d10 radiant damage, ...
The trigger for the damage happening is one of the following:
"A creature moves into the spells area for the first time on a turn."
or
"A creature starts its turn inside the spells area"
Note that in both cases, they get a saving throw to avoid the damage and exhaustion.
You can however forcibly move creatures into the spell. Someone could use physical effects or magic to shove a creature into it, which would immediately trigger the first condition "A creature moves into the spells area for the first time on a turn." and then when that creature takes a turn, it would trigger again.
I hope that helps! 😊
I don't think this is accurate. IIRC, forced movement does not trigger these types of conditionals, and that's specifically to avoid these kinds of ping-pong tactics.
The only time forced movement doesn’t count is when the effect is worded to disallow it: compare spells that say “when a creature willingly moves” or similar. As far as I know, it’s accurate to say MOST spells require willing movement, but that’s because they explicitly say that, not because of a general rule of the kind you suggest here.
When a creature moves into the spell’s area for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there, that creature must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or take 4d10 radiant damage, ...
The trigger for the damage happening is one of the following:
"A creature moves into the spells area for the first time on a turn."
or
"A creature starts its turn inside the spells area"
Note that in both cases, they get a saving throw to avoid the damage and exhaustion.
You can however forcibly move creatures into the spell. Someone could use physical effects or magic to shove a creature into it, which would immediately trigger the first condition "A creature moves into the spells area for the first time on a turn." and then when that creature takes a turn, it would trigger again.
I hope that helps! 😊
The spell is worded poorly regarding the exhaustion. The way it's written, "that creature must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or take 4d10 radiant damage, and it suffers one level of exhaustion and emits a dim, greenish light in a 5-foot radius . . . " makes it ambiguous as to whether the exhaustion and light-emitting are tied to the save, or happen no matter what. I guess the consensus is that a successful save prevents everything?
I don’t think the RAW is ambiguous at all. The exhaustion and light are a separate clause from the CON save. CON save prevents damage, doesn’t prevent anything else. RAI may be different; in general though, a 4th-level spell can probably be expected to be intended to do SOMETHING, even on a successful save, so my money is on RAI matching the RAW here.
The main issue with that is that the spell will then kill any and every creature in 6 rounds if you can prevent them from leaving the area of effect. 6 levels of exhaustion is dead. 5 levels prevents movement so if they haven't left by then death is guaranteed in one more round. This is a pretty powerful effect for a fourth level spell. Cast forcecage (or maybe a hemisphere wall of force or something else to constrain its movement) on an ancient dragon, cast sickening radiance (and if the exhaustion has no save) it will be dead in 6 rounds.
I think most people play that all the spell effects are contingent on failing the save but I could be wrong.
Forcecage is a 7th-level spell that lasts an hour. If you’re able to trap a dragon in one with Sickening Radiance, it’s going to die even if the exhaustion IS contingent on a failed CON save.
Sickening Radiance is concentration, and dragons aren’t usually completely solo monsters. This is one of those combos that seems OP, but is incredibly unlikely to ever happen in actual play. And if it does, the separation of exhaustion from the saving throw here isn’t actually going to make a difference.
So you're saying if you shoved someone in there, it wouldn't affect them until the beginning of their turn when they satisfy the "or starts their turn there" qualifier?
I'm really not sure because the base rules do not have a clear definition of what happens in these instances, yet people like Crawford insist there are meaningful distinctions that are not codified anywhere. I know I've seen contradicting posts from him about Wall of Fire indicating that being pushed by Repelling Blast Invocation does not trigger the effect, yet also indicating that Shove is a great way to force the effect... it can't be both.
Can we really ping-pong creatures turn-after-turn like that? Sounds a hell of a lot like 4e to me...
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
When a creature moves into the spell’s area for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there, that creature must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or take 4d10 radiant damage, ...
The trigger for the damage happening is one of the following:
"A creature moves into the spells area for the first time on a turn."
or
"A creature starts its turn inside the spells area"
Note that in both cases, they get a saving throw to avoid the damage and exhaustion.
You can however forcibly move creatures into the spell. Someone could use physical effects or magic to shove a creature into it, which would immediately trigger the first condition "A creature moves into the spells area for the first time on a turn." and then when that creature takes a turn, it would trigger again.
I hope that helps! 😊
The spell is worded poorly regarding the exhaustion. The way it's written, "that creature must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or take 4d10 radiant damage, and it suffers one level of exhaustion and emits a dim, greenish light in a 5-foot radius . . . " makes it ambiguous as to whether the exhaustion and light-emitting are tied to the save, or happen no matter what. I guess the consensus is that a successful save prevents everything?
I don’t think the RAW is ambiguous at all. The exhaustion and light are a separate clause from the CON save. CON save prevents damage, doesn’t prevent anything else. RAI may be different; in general though, a 4th-level spell can probably be expected to be intended to do SOMETHING, even on a successful save, so my money is on RAI matching the RAW here.
The main issue with that is that the spell will then kill any and every creature in 6 rounds if you can prevent them from leaving the area of effect. 6 levels of exhaustion is dead. 5 levels prevents movement so if they haven't left by then death is guaranteed in one more round. This is a pretty powerful effect for a fourth level spell. Cast forcecage (or maybe a hemisphere wall of force or something else to constrain its movement) on an ancient dragon, cast sickening radiance (and if the exhaustion has no save) it will be dead in 6 rounds.
I think most people play that all the spell effects are contingent on failing the save but I could be wrong.
Forcecage is a 7th-level spell that lasts an hour. If you’re able to trap a dragon in one with Sickening Radiance, it’s going to die even if the exhaustion IS contingent on a failed CON save.
Sickening Radiance is concentration, and dragons aren’t usually completely solo monsters. This is one of those combos that seems OP, but is incredibly unlikely to ever happen in actual play. And if it does, the separation of exhaustion from the saving throw here isn’t actually going to make a difference.
Most Huge and Larger creatures won’t fit in a Forcecage...it’s only 20 feet on a side in cage form and if any portion of the creature is outside it, they aren’t trapped in it. Dragons and most of the taller giants would be too large or long to fit
Well either way, if you get shoved in, you're going to get hit by it. It's just a question of whether it's at the beginning of your turn or sooner.
Yeah, but if "ping-ponging" works, you can potentially get hit by it twice in a round - once when you're forced in (on someone else's turn), and once when you start your turn there.
Well either way, if you get shoved in, you're going to get hit by it. It's just a question of whether it's at the beginning of your turn or sooner.
Right, and I personally think it's more reasonable to assume beginning of turn. It's gonna happen, but I don't think it's intended to go back-and-forth in the interim. Now a creature using their reaction (by another creature's ability) to move in/through a zone is a different, straight-forward story.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Just got my Shadow Sorc to Level 7 and thinking about using Sickening Radiance.
My question is this: when I cast the spell does the damage occur instantly, or does it only start on the enemies turn?
My heart says it would start instantly, as the light is there, so the effect would occur instantly. My brain says having one spell do a potential 8d10 damage per combat round is a little OP. Thoughts?
-
View User Profile
-
View Posts
-
Send Message
D&D Beyond FoundersHey there!
The text of the sickening radiance spell states:
The trigger for the damage happening is one of the following:
"A creature moves into the spells area for the first time on a turn."
or
"A creature starts its turn inside the spells area"
Note that in both cases, they get a saving throw to avoid the damage and exhaustion.
You can however forcibly move creatures into the spell. Someone could use physical effects or magic to shove a creature into it, which would immediately trigger the first condition "A creature moves into the spells area for the first time on a turn." and then when that creature takes a turn, it would trigger again.
I hope that helps! 😊
Pun-loving nerd | Faith Elisabeth Lilley | She/Her/Hers | Profile art by Becca Golins
If you need help with homebrew, please post on the homebrew forums, where multiple staff and moderators can read your post and help you!
"We got this, no problem! I'll take the twenty on the left - you guys handle the one on the right!"🔊
Cheers, thanks for your help!
The spell is worded poorly regarding the exhaustion. The way it's written, "that creature must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or take 4d10 radiant damage, and it suffers one level of exhaustion and emits a dim, greenish light in a 5-foot radius . . . " makes it ambiguous as to whether the exhaustion and light-emitting are tied to the save, or happen no matter what. I guess the consensus is that a successful save prevents everything?
I don’t think the RAW is ambiguous at all. The exhaustion and light are a separate clause from the CON save. CON save prevents damage, doesn’t prevent anything else. RAI may be different; in general though, a 4th-level spell can probably be expected to be intended to do SOMETHING, even on a successful save, so my money is on RAI matching the RAW here.
I agree with your reading as a matter of grammar, but Jeremy Crawford disagrees with us:
https://www.sageadvice.eu/2017/12/10/are-the-non-damaging-effects-from-sickening-radiance-exhaustion-and-no-invisibility-tie-to-the-save/
In any case, it would certainly be easy to reword the spell in a less confusing manner:
"When a creature moves into the spell’s area for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there, it suffers one level of exhaustion and emits a dim, greenish light in a 5-foot radius. That creature must also make a constitution saving throw. On a failed save, it takes 4d10 radiant damage."
-OR-
"When a creature moves into the spell’s area for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there, it must make a Constitution saving throw. On a failed save, the creature takes 4d10 radiant damage, suffers one level of exhaustion and emits a dim, greenish light in a 5-foot radius."
The main issue with that is that the spell will then kill any and every creature in 6 rounds if you can prevent them from leaving the area of effect. 6 levels of exhaustion is dead. 5 levels prevents movement so if they haven't left by then death is guaranteed in one more round. This is a pretty powerful effect for a fourth level spell. Cast forcecage (or maybe a hemisphere wall of force or something else to constrain its movement) on an ancient dragon, cast sickening radiance (and if the exhaustion has no save) it will be dead in 6 rounds.
I think most people play that all the spell effects are contingent on failing the save but I could be wrong.
I don't think this is accurate. IIRC, forced movement does not trigger these types of conditionals, and that's specifically to avoid these kinds of ping-pong tactics.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
So you're saying if you shoved someone in there, it wouldn't affect them until the beginning of their turn when they satisfy the "or starts their turn there" qualifier?
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Being forced into an area-effect spell does trigger any applicable effects, just like forced movement off the edge of a cliff triggers the falling damage. The only time I'm aware of that there's a distinction between "forced movement" and "forced to use your own movement" is with attacks of opportunity.
The spell's description simply says "when a creature moves into the spell’s area for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there" it takes the damage. It doesn't say it needs to use its own movement to enter the area. Moreover, it wouldn't be entering the area on "a" turn (rather than "its" turn) unless it could be forced into the area.
The only time forced movement doesn’t count is when the effect is worded to disallow it: compare spells that say “when a creature willingly moves” or similar. As far as I know, it’s accurate to say MOST spells require willing movement, but that’s because they explicitly say that, not because of a general rule of the kind you suggest here.
Forcecage is a 7th-level spell that lasts an hour. If you’re able to trap a dragon in one with Sickening Radiance, it’s going to die even if the exhaustion IS contingent on a failed CON save.
Sickening Radiance is concentration, and dragons aren’t usually completely solo monsters. This is one of those combos that seems OP, but is incredibly unlikely to ever happen in actual play. And if it does, the separation of exhaustion from the saving throw here isn’t actually going to make a difference.
-
View User Profile
-
View Posts
-
Send Message
D&D Beyond FoundersTo clarify, as far as I can see, the rules as intended (RAI) are:
https://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/03/16/enter-area-of-effect/
The rules as written (RAW) seem to support this.
I'm not an official rules source, but it seems to me that it is clear, but as always, it is up to each DM and their group how they wish to play. 😊
Pun-loving nerd | Faith Elisabeth Lilley | She/Her/Hers | Profile art by Becca Golins
If you need help with homebrew, please post on the homebrew forums, where multiple staff and moderators can read your post and help you!
"We got this, no problem! I'll take the twenty on the left - you guys handle the one on the right!"🔊
I'm really not sure because the base rules do not have a clear definition of what happens in these instances, yet people like Crawford insist there are meaningful distinctions that are not codified anywhere. I know I've seen contradicting posts from him about Wall of Fire indicating that being pushed by Repelling Blast Invocation does not trigger the effect, yet also indicating that Shove is a great way to force the effect... it can't be both.
Can we really ping-pong creatures turn-after-turn like that? Sounds a hell of a lot like 4e to me...
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Well either way, if you get shoved in, you're going to get hit by it. It's just a question of whether it's at the beginning of your turn or sooner.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Most Huge and Larger creatures won’t fit in a Forcecage...it’s only 20 feet on a side in cage form and if any portion of the creature is outside it, they aren’t trapped in it. Dragons and most of the taller giants would be too large or long to fit
Yeah, but if "ping-ponging" works, you can potentially get hit by it twice in a round - once when you're forced in (on someone else's turn), and once when you start your turn there.
The spell's description accounts for that.
Only the first hit hurts each turn.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Right, and I personally think it's more reasonable to assume beginning of turn. It's gonna happen, but I don't think it's intended to go back-and-forth in the interim. Now a creature using their reaction (by another creature's ability) to move in/through a zone is a different, straight-forward story.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Each turn though...that means in a round a creature could be hit by it multiple times if they were forced to move in and out of the area. Is that RAI?