On a hit, the target takes 1d12 lightning damage, and on each of your turns for the duration, you can use your action to deal 1d12 lightning damage to the target automatically.
I interpret it as you hit the first time to make the connection. Then roll each turn against ac for aditional dmg or use an action to auto hit.
Edit:
Im a DM who allows it work work like this. My warlock has still dropped it uppon lvling though, due to it still being underwhelming.
This spell really need to be fixed to be usefull. It is the only spell with so many restrictions on lvl 1.
On a hit, the target takes 1d12 lightning damage, and on each of your turns for the duration, you can use your action to deal 1d12 lightning damage to the target automatically.
I interpret it as you hit the first time to make the connection. Then roll each turn against ac for aditional dmg or use an action to auto hit.
The spell says to only make one spell attack, when you first cast the spell. On a hit, you deal damage and then also have the ability to automatically cause damage. There is no secondary roll called for in the spell. Why would you need to roll an attack to automatically hit?
Yeah, I thought this had been wrapped up tightly... nothing about this spell requires you to make any additional attack rolls.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
As an addendum to the Action Surge conversation, Haste also gives it's target an additional action. That action is specifically limited by the spell and would cause Witch Bolt to end.
I know I might be a bit behind on this conversation but I want to point something out. Witchbolt would not break from Haste or from Action Surge. It's requirement is that you use your action to activate it each turn, It however does not in any way say that all actions that you earn in that turn must be used to activate Witchbolt. So while it is potentially RaW (because of lack of clarification) that you could potentially tap it multiple times even if it is perhaps not RaI.
The Issue of Haste and Action Surge because they are not called out as being required to use your action on Witchbolt and in the case of haste you actually can't (Which mind you the spells specifics do not actually counter and cause problems with this). It is by RaW that the extra action gained by Haste or Action Surge that they would be used in the way that Haste and Action Surge dictate and not by how Witchbolt Dictates. Meaning with these extra turns you could make attacks and the like or in the case of Action Surge just about anything you want that is an acceptable move with your action in that turn. RaI does not seem to actually counteract this either since Witchbolt only speaks about requiring your single main action not additional gained actions or other kinds of actions such as BA or movement.
Witchbolt's best usage is actually in combination with other party members that can help keep the target in your radius. The longer they stay in your radius the better that it turns out to be for you resource wise because you are not using up additional spell slots on other turns. If your looking for Raw Damage even a single casting of Witch Bolt hitting will do more damage than most other spells and if you can keep it going it's like casting additional Magic Missile Spells or Cantrips with guaranteed hits for each additional turn that it is functional. The only first level spell slot really comparable is Magic Missile. Only two Cantrips actually do d12 damage. One is a divine spell and the other is Poison Spray which is even shorter range. Anything less than that with extra effects will primarily be in the d6 to d8 range. So even at it's short range for the spell level it is. Booming Blade and Green Flame Blade scaling better at higher levels than most cantrips but at the same time are the most situational to either make them deal damage or to take advantage of their secondary effect, they have the shortest effective range they can be cast/used at, and they are both basically best used by some kind of tank type character over any full spell caster.
Damage type can be important but so can other factors. Magic Missile is not a spell that is modified by any Feat that I am aware of. It's damage type is so rare that it doesn't appear in any of those kinds of Feats and it doesn't take advantage of spell sniper because there is no spell attack rolled. Magic Missile is also completely unusable with War Caster since it has potential to hit more than one target. Witchbolt can be modified by both feats that affect lightning damage and Spell Sniper to double it's effective range if you would choose to do so as well as being castable as a reaction through War Caster. Magic Missile also has a fatal weakness that is heavily unutilized. Magic Missile is completely blocked by a simple shield spell in a reactive "You just wasted your spell slot" kind of way. (that same spell that people are sometimes hesitant to use because they might need the spell slot or there might be a bigger hit they need to block later.)
The drawbacks to Witchbolt are not in it's special effects which are actually the same affects in basic as some more valuable spells (including Magic Missile) or even it's scalability. People nay say it or call it a trap because of it's short range, it's requirement for line of sight, and that it requires concentration. These are indeed restrictions to it's functionality but these restrictions are greater or lesser depending on how your team coordinates as a group. They are not as devastating as they are usually made out to be or take as much setup (many evaluate things like this spell in a vacuum making everything reliant on a single solo character) to get around if you have other team members that can cast spells or do other things to stop your target from moving around for example as one way they can work together. Combined with a good DC web spell (or any other of a number of things including other kinds of such spells) it becomes a lot easier to get multiple turns out of the spells usage but even as a single hit spell it ranks with the best of them at the cantrip and 1st spell level.
And on a side note because I saw somebody bring up probability of hitting. WitchBolts pay off rate depends on what you are using it against. Your highest AC threat at level 1 is going to be a single Animated Armor at 18 ac. Most things are going to be significantly below that which may or may not push your spell attack success rate above 50% on average (the point where Witchbolt pays for its misses in just one extra turn on average and gives you a bonus in any subsequent extra turn you get out of it). And with such an enemy as that Animated Armor even your martial characters are going to have a hard time hitting it with real consistency so your best bet is to actually hit it with any kind of spells that rely on it to make saves since they have a high probability of succeeding instead as long as they don't do poison or psychic damage since it's immune. Magic Missile won't do damage reliably enough to kill it even as a level 2 Wizard and possibly not even at level 3 with your available spell slots So They are probably best saved for other targets instead. No spell is good in all situations no matter how hard we try to find one that is sometimes.
As an addendum to the Action Surge conversation, Haste also gives it's target an additional action. That action is specifically limited by the spell and would cause Witch Bolt to end.
I know I might be a bit behind on this conversation but I want to point something out. Witchbolt would not break from Haste or from Action Surge. It's requirement is that you use your action to activate it each turn, It however does not in any way say that all actions that you earn in that turn must be used to activate Witchbolt. So while it is potentially RaW (because of lack of clarification) that you could potentially tap it multiple times even if it is perhaps not RaI.
The Issue of Haste and Action Surge because they are not called out as being required to use your action on Witchbolt and in the case of haste you actually can't (Which mind you the spells specifics do not actually counter and cause problems with this). It is by RaW that the extra action gained by Haste or Action Surge that they would be used in the way that Haste and Action Surge dictate and not by how Witchbolt Dictates. Meaning with these extra turns you could make attacks and the like or in the case of Action Surge just about anything you want that is an acceptable move with your action in that turn. RaI does not seem to actually counteract this either since Witchbolt only speaks about requiring your single main action not additional gained actions or other kinds of actions such as BA or movement.
It should be said that a character that is likely to have Haste cast on it is not likely to have Witch Bolt and not all fighter or fighter multiclass characters will care for it either making the point mostly academic. However, if such a character does take the spell, they will want to talk to their DM about the interaction to verify that it will or won't break the spell.
As for your second post, you forgot about Toll the Dead that would be dealing 1d12 damage to a creature who has already taken damage and it is a wisdom save. It's a very good spell for the same situations where Witch Bolt would be useful, though just being able to use your action to deal the damage is preferable to forcing the save at lower levels, possibly even after 5th when Toll goes to 2d8/2d12. Eldritch Blast with Agonizing Blast is also a spell that might be preferable because the spellcasting modifier will make up for the fact that it's only 1d10 until 5th. Attack spells can crit, witch bolt's bonus damage can't, which is another factor to consider but shouldn't be weighed heavily outside of critfisher builds.
I'll agree with you that Witch Bolt suffers mainly in white room analysis and that the spell can be situationally effective. Party composition, tactics, and terrain can all boost Witch Bolt's desirability. Those are things that white room analysis can't account for because of the unreliability of their availability and should be weighted accordingly.
I know I might be a bit behind on this conversation but I want to point something out. Witchbolt would not break from Haste or from Action Surge. It's requirement is that you use your action to activate it each turn, It however does not in any way say that all actions that you earn in that turn must be used to activate Witchbolt. So while it is potentially RaW (because of lack of clarification) that you could potentially tap it multiple times even if it is perhaps not RaI.
I agree the spell does not say you have to use all of your actions to maintain the spell. In fact, it doesn't say you have to use your actions at all in order to maintain the spell. The spell does specify what happens if you use your action on your turn for anything other than maintaining the spell.
Assuming you target them all at a single enemy, this means you are doing 3D4 + 3 damage automatically, compared to D12 damage if you hit.
Running the numbers for the first round, this means that Witch Bolt will do a maximum of 12 damage, an average of 6.5, and a minimum of one if it hits. If it misses, it does nothing. Magic missile will do a maximum of 15, avg 10.5, min 6, with no possibility of missing. For a single round, Magic Missile is vastly superior.
Lots of small dice are generally better than few big dice: They'll give you more consistency and higher average and minimum damages. That said, I prefer using a greataxe (D12) over a greatsword (2D6) because I like rolling the big dice
Assuming you target them all at a single enemy, this means you are doing 3D4 + 3 damage automatically, compared to D12 damage if you hit.
Running the numbers for the first round, this means that Witch Bolt will do a maximum of 12 damage, an average of 6.5, and a minimum of one if it hits. If it misses, it does nothing. Magic missile will do a maximum of 15, avg 10.5, min 6, with no possibility of missing. For a single round, Magic Missile is vastly superior.
Lots of small dice are generally better than few big dice: They'll give you more consistency and higher average and minimum damages. That said, I prefer using a greataxe (D12) over a greatsword (2D6) because I like rolling the big dice
Technically speaking, Magic Missile doesn’t work that way. Technically speaking you roll 1d4+1 and apply that result to all darts. It’s a technical based on the fact that all darts hit “simultaneously” so the spell follows the same rules as AoEs like Fireball (With Fireball you don’t roll 8d6 for each target, you roll 8d6 and all targets take the same damage.) So technically speaking MM is both 1 die, and small dice.
Witchbolt would not break from Haste or from Action Surge. It's requirement is that you use your action to activate it each turn
and
I agree the spell does not say you have to use all of your actions to maintain the spell
RAW I would disagree.
The spell ends if you use your action to do anything else
Using Action Surge or any other method to gain an action on your turn would end it if you used that action for anything else, because even though it's an additional action, you have used your action to do something else. I would have no problem with double-tapping, and nothing prohibits the use of a bonus action or reaction, either.
You also don't have to use you action to retrigger it to maintain it: You could skip your action for a turn and, as long as you maintained concentration, you would still have it available.
I have seen "an action" and "your action" used throughout the rules, and they appear interchangeable. If we make that distinction, I suspect there are a lot of spells and other effects which would not be allowed to be used with Action Surge, Haste etc. I highly doubt that's the interpretation most are using.
If there is a distinction, it applies throughout and many effects would be restricted to only your main action, not additional ones granted by other sources. If there is not, an Action Surge to do anything other than double-tap would end Witch Bolt.
One could argue a distinction between “use[ing] your action” and ”use[ing] an action.”
I mean, I have seen weaker arguments in these forums.
Can you explain to me how I can use an action that isn't my action?
Well, theoretically one could argue that “your action” is the action that you innately generate yourself, whereas if something else grants you “an action” you can use it, but it isn’t really “yours.”
It might theoretically come down to the difference in wording between “an additional action” verses “an extra action.” “Additional” might imply another one of the same action you had, ie “another one of your actions,” whereas “extra” might imply a completely separate source/type of action not inherently “yours.” 🤷♂️ Of course, one could also interpret the distinction in the exact opposite way. Or that the distinction would come from method of generation, from oneself such as Action Surge, or from elsewhere such as Haste.
To be clear, I am not arguing these points, more of a Devil’s Advocate type of thing.
Well, theoretically one could argue that “your action” is the action that you innately generate yourself, whereas if something else grants you “an action” you can use it, but it isn’t really “yours.”
I've never heard one argue that (and I have seen a lot of weird arguments), but I think one would be wrong if they did.
On a hit, the target takes 1d12 lightning damage, and on each of your turns for the duration, you can use your action to deal 1d12 lightning damage to the target automatically.
I interpret it as you hit the first time to make the connection. Then roll each turn against ac for aditional dmg or use an action to auto hit.
Edit:
Im a DM who allows it work work like this. My warlock has still dropped it uppon lvling though, due to it still being underwhelming.
This spell really need to be fixed to be usefull. It is the only spell with so many restrictions on lvl 1.
The spell says to only make one spell attack, when you first cast the spell. On a hit, you deal damage and then also have the ability to automatically cause damage. There is no secondary roll called for in the spell. Why would you need to roll an attack to automatically hit?
Yeah, I thought this had been wrapped up tightly... nothing about this spell requires you to make any additional attack rolls.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
This^^^
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
I know I might be a bit behind on this conversation but I want to point something out. Witchbolt would not break from Haste or from Action Surge. It's requirement is that you use your action to activate it each turn, It however does not in any way say that all actions that you earn in that turn must be used to activate Witchbolt. So while it is potentially RaW (because of lack of clarification) that you could potentially tap it multiple times even if it is perhaps not RaI.
The Issue of Haste and Action Surge because they are not called out as being required to use your action on Witchbolt and in the case of haste you actually can't (Which mind you the spells specifics do not actually counter and cause problems with this). It is by RaW that the extra action gained by Haste or Action Surge that they would be used in the way that Haste and Action Surge dictate and not by how Witchbolt Dictates. Meaning with these extra turns you could make attacks and the like or in the case of Action Surge just about anything you want that is an acceptable move with your action in that turn. RaI does not seem to actually counteract this either since Witchbolt only speaks about requiring your single main action not additional gained actions or other kinds of actions such as BA or movement.
Witchbolt's best usage is actually in combination with other party members that can help keep the target in your radius. The longer they stay in your radius the better that it turns out to be for you resource wise because you are not using up additional spell slots on other turns. If your looking for Raw Damage even a single casting of Witch Bolt hitting will do more damage than most other spells and if you can keep it going it's like casting additional Magic Missile Spells or Cantrips with guaranteed hits for each additional turn that it is functional. The only first level spell slot really comparable is Magic Missile. Only two Cantrips actually do d12 damage. One is a divine spell and the other is Poison Spray which is even shorter range. Anything less than that with extra effects will primarily be in the d6 to d8 range. So even at it's short range for the spell level it is. Booming Blade and Green Flame Blade scaling better at higher levels than most cantrips but at the same time are the most situational to either make them deal damage or to take advantage of their secondary effect, they have the shortest effective range they can be cast/used at, and they are both basically best used by some kind of tank type character over any full spell caster.
Damage type can be important but so can other factors. Magic Missile is not a spell that is modified by any Feat that I am aware of. It's damage type is so rare that it doesn't appear in any of those kinds of Feats and it doesn't take advantage of spell sniper because there is no spell attack rolled. Magic Missile is also completely unusable with War Caster since it has potential to hit more than one target. Witchbolt can be modified by both feats that affect lightning damage and Spell Sniper to double it's effective range if you would choose to do so as well as being castable as a reaction through War Caster. Magic Missile also has a fatal weakness that is heavily unutilized. Magic Missile is completely blocked by a simple shield spell in a reactive "You just wasted your spell slot" kind of way. (that same spell that people are sometimes hesitant to use because they might need the spell slot or there might be a bigger hit they need to block later.)
The drawbacks to Witchbolt are not in it's special effects which are actually the same affects in basic as some more valuable spells (including Magic Missile) or even it's scalability. People nay say it or call it a trap because of it's short range, it's requirement for line of sight, and that it requires concentration. These are indeed restrictions to it's functionality but these restrictions are greater or lesser depending on how your team coordinates as a group. They are not as devastating as they are usually made out to be or take as much setup (many evaluate things like this spell in a vacuum making everything reliant on a single solo character) to get around if you have other team members that can cast spells or do other things to stop your target from moving around for example as one way they can work together. Combined with a good DC web spell (or any other of a number of things including other kinds of such spells) it becomes a lot easier to get multiple turns out of the spells usage but even as a single hit spell it ranks with the best of them at the cantrip and 1st spell level.
And on a side note because I saw somebody bring up probability of hitting. WitchBolts pay off rate depends on what you are using it against. Your highest AC threat at level 1 is going to be a single Animated Armor at 18 ac. Most things are going to be significantly below that which may or may not push your spell attack success rate above 50% on average (the point where Witchbolt pays for its misses in just one extra turn on average and gives you a bonus in any subsequent extra turn you get out of it). And with such an enemy as that Animated Armor even your martial characters are going to have a hard time hitting it with real consistency so your best bet is to actually hit it with any kind of spells that rely on it to make saves since they have a high probability of succeeding instead as long as they don't do poison or psychic damage since it's immune. Magic Missile won't do damage reliably enough to kill it even as a level 2 Wizard and possibly not even at level 3 with your available spell slots So They are probably best saved for other targets instead. No spell is good in all situations no matter how hard we try to find one that is sometimes.
It should be said that a character that is likely to have Haste cast on it is not likely to have Witch Bolt and not all fighter or fighter multiclass characters will care for it either making the point mostly academic. However, if such a character does take the spell, they will want to talk to their DM about the interaction to verify that it will or won't break the spell.
As for your second post, you forgot about Toll the Dead that would be dealing 1d12 damage to a creature who has already taken damage and it is a wisdom save. It's a very good spell for the same situations where Witch Bolt would be useful, though just being able to use your action to deal the damage is preferable to forcing the save at lower levels, possibly even after 5th when Toll goes to 2d8/2d12. Eldritch Blast with Agonizing Blast is also a spell that might be preferable because the spellcasting modifier will make up for the fact that it's only 1d10 until 5th. Attack spells can crit, witch bolt's bonus damage can't, which is another factor to consider but shouldn't be weighed heavily outside of critfisher builds.
I'll agree with you that Witch Bolt suffers mainly in white room analysis and that the spell can be situationally effective. Party composition, tactics, and terrain can all boost Witch Bolt's desirability. Those are things that white room analysis can't account for because of the unreliability of their availability and should be weighted accordingly.
I agree the spell does not say you have to use all of your actions to maintain the spell. In fact, it doesn't say you have to use your actions at all in order to maintain the spell. The spell does specify what happens if you use your action on your turn for anything other than maintaining the spell.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Assuming you target them all at a single enemy, this means you are doing 3D4 + 3 damage automatically, compared to D12 damage if you hit.
Running the numbers for the first round, this means that Witch Bolt will do a maximum of 12 damage, an average of 6.5, and a minimum of one if it hits. If it misses, it does nothing. Magic missile will do a maximum of 15, avg 10.5, min 6, with no possibility of missing. For a single round, Magic Missile is vastly superior.
Lots of small dice are generally better than few big dice: They'll give you more consistency and higher average and minimum damages. That said, I prefer using a greataxe (D12) over a greatsword (2D6) because I like rolling the big dice
Technically speaking, Magic Missile doesn’t work that way. Technically speaking you roll 1d4+1 and apply that result to all darts. It’s a technical based on the fact that all darts hit “simultaneously” so the spell follows the same rules as AoEs like Fireball (With Fireball you don’t roll 8d6 for each target, you roll 8d6 and all targets take the same damage.) So technically speaking MM is both 1 die, and small dice.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
Yep, you are right. It's still (D4 x 3) + 3 and the max/avg/min are the same, but it doesn't gain as much consistency as rolling lots of small dice.
Yup. But technically it’s (1d4+1)*3. Remember, each dart can hit a different creature.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
MM, has another advantage as well, each dart still counts as a separate hit, so that’s 3 potential Concentration Checks too.
MM is (and always has been) one of the greatest 1st-level spells of all time, right next to Burning Hands, Sleep, and Tasha’s Laughter.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
RAW I would disagree.
Using Action Surge or any other method to gain an action on your turn would end it if you used that action for anything else, because even though it's an additional action, you have used your action to do something else. I would have no problem with double-tapping, and nothing prohibits the use of a bonus action or reaction, either.
You also don't have to use you action to retrigger it to maintain it: You could skip your action for a turn and, as long as you maintained concentration, you would still have it available.
One could argue a distinction between “use[ing] your action” and ”use[ing] an action.”
I mean, I have seen weaker arguments in these forums.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
It is at the least unclear.
I have seen "an action" and "your action" used throughout the rules, and they appear interchangeable. If we make that distinction, I suspect there are a lot of spells and other effects which would not be allowed to be used with Action Surge, Haste etc. I highly doubt that's the interpretation most are using.
If there is a distinction, it applies throughout and many effects would be restricted to only your main action, not additional ones granted by other sources. If there is not, an Action Surge to do anything other than double-tap would end Witch Bolt.
Can you explain to me how I can use an action that isn't my action?
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Well, theoretically one could argue that “your action” is the action that you innately generate yourself, whereas if something else grants you “an action” you can use it, but it isn’t really “yours.”
It might theoretically come down to the difference in wording between “an additional action” verses “an extra action.” “Additional” might imply another one of the same action you had, ie “another one of your actions,” whereas “extra” might imply a completely separate source/type of action not inherently “yours.” 🤷♂️ Of course, one could also interpret the distinction in the exact opposite way. Or that the distinction would come from method of generation, from oneself such as Action Surge, or from elsewhere such as Haste.
To be clear, I am not arguing these points, more of a Devil’s Advocate type of thing.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
I've never heard one argue that (and I have seen a lot of weird arguments), but I think one would be wrong if they did.