Counterspell: You attempt to interrupt a creature in the process of casting a spell. If the creature is casting a spell of 3rd level or lower, its spell fails and has no effect. If it is casting a spell of 4th level or higher, make an ability check using your spellcasting ability. The DC equals 10 + the spell's level. On a success, the creature's spell fails and has no effect.
At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 4th level or higher, the interrupted spell has no effect if its level is less than or equal to the level of the spell slot you used.
Edited to Clarify that an ability check is performed:
The spell specifically states for casting at 4th level or higher (AKA upcasting), perform an ability check. It is NOT a pass or fail for being upcast -- it is an ability check.
"...If it is casting a spell of 4th level or higher, make an ability check using your spellcasting ability. The DC equals 10 + the spell's level. On a success, the creature's spell fails and has no effect.
At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 4th level or higher, the interrupted spell has no effect if its level is less than or equal to the level of the spell slot you used."
An ability check tests a character's or monster's innate talent and training in an effort to overcome a challenge. The DM calls for an ability check when a character or monster attempts an action (other than an attack) that has a chance of failure. When the outcome is uncertain, the dice determine the results.
To make an ability check, roll a d20 and add the relevant ability modifier. As with other d20 rolls, apply bonuses and penalties, and compare the total to the DC. If the total equals or exceeds the DC, the ability check is a success--the creature overcomes the challenge at hand. Otherwise, it's a failure, which means the character or monster makes no progress toward the objective or makes progress combined with a setback determined by the DM.
Basically:
1. Starting at level 3, to effectively counter an offensive spell, you must meet or exceed the spell level slot with the counterspell.
2. If you use a lower level counterspell slot against a higher level offensive spell, the DC is 10+ the difference of Offensive Spell vs. Counterspell slots.
3. To counter a counterspell, the same mechanics apply, but the Offensive Caster must make or exceed the Defensive Caster's Counterspell Slot used under rules 1 & 2.
4. Countering a counterspell by any additional player maintains the same mechanic in 3 until no more counterspells are cast. e.g. ran out of mages.
Practical Examples:Scenarios 1-9 Given there are no other ability modifiers (Lore Bard Jack of All Trades etc...)
Scenario 1: Player A casts 3rd level spell at player B.
Player B uses reaction counterspell in 3rd level spell slot.
The Offensive Spell is countered.
Scenario 2:Player A casts 4th level spell at player B.
Player B uses reaction to counterspell in 3rd level spell slot.
Player B must meet or exceed the DC to successfully counter the spell.
Scenario 9: Player A and Player B use all reactions to counter-counterspell, successfully or not. Any additional counterspell may be cast until all players are exhausted of counterspell.
Sorry, no... if the Spell is cast using a higher level spell slot than the Counterspell, the Check is always 10+ The Spell's level, regardless of what level Counterspell you cast.
For example... if you use a 6th level Counterspell to counter a spell cast at 7th level, the DC is 17. The difference in spell slots between the spell and the counterspell is not a factor... as long as you fail to reach the spell slot of the Spell, the DC does not include any calculations from the Counterspell spell-slot level.
"2. If you use a lower level counterspell slot against a higher level offensive spell, the DC is 10+ the difference of Offensive Spell vs. Counterspell slots."
This is incorrect.
When you counter spell if the spell you are countering is higher than level then you make the check at DC 10 + the level of the targeted spell. Your own spell's level makes no difference to the DC.
Player A casts Fireball at Level 5.
Player B attempts Counterspell at 4th Level.
Player A tries to Counterspell Player B using at 3rd Level.
To resolve this we work backwards:
Player A makes the check, the DC would be 14. If they got 14 or higher they are successful, they stop the counterspell, the Fireball goes off. If they roll 13 or less, their counterspell fails. And we move to Player B's counterspell.
Player B makes the check, their DC is 15. If they succeed the Fireball is thwarted. If they fail the Fireball goes off.
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So it would appear some people are saying the DC is 10+the spell level used. e.g. 5th level offensive spell with a 3rd level spell DC=15.
So then it has no benefit to use higher-level spell slots to counter given your rationale.
The spell states "At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 4th level or higher, the interrupted spell has no effect if its level is less than or equal to the level of the spell slot you used."
Why would the spell explicitly layout that ability check is to be used on 4th level and higher, then lays out the formula? If it's a pass/fail scenario there would be no reason to include ability check...
"...If it is casting a spell of 4th level or higher, make an ability check using your spellcasting ability. The DC equals 10 + the spell's level. On a success, the creature's spell fails and has no effect."
Why would the former mechanics be negated? It would render upcasting useless except the CHANCE to completely counter the spell?
At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 4th level or higher, the interrupted spell has no effect if its level is less than or equal to the level of the spell slot you used"
Why would the former mechanics be negated? It would render upcasting useless except the CHANCE to completely counter the spell.
That's exactly right. Upcasting isn't a guaranteed improvement and is a hard gamble. Counterspell is a very powerful spell that can completely change the course of a battle, but it has the hard downside that you might waste a high level counterspell on a spell that was much lower level than the one being cast, or that you might spend a higher level slot only to have the counterspell fail anyway.
I'm tempted to say "played properly", but that's prone to start all kinds of tangent arguments.
In every game I've played, when an opponent casts a spell, the level is not advertised. When you choose to counterspell, you have to make the conscious decision to use a higher spell slot, hoping it will be an automatic success, or resort to a lower spell slot and let the dice decide if it works. As far as I know, you should never know the level of the spell when you decide to counterspell.
At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 4th level or higher, the interrupted spell has no effect if its level is less than or equal to the level of the spell slot you used"
BionGreen, You are implying stuff that isn't written. The former mechanics aren't negated, but they work as written. The upcasting text deals with the second sentence. None of the text that follows is changed. You automatically counter a spell of equal or lesser value to the slot that you used for the counter. If the spell you are countering is greater than 4th level (and not already countered according to sentence 2 or the text under "at higher levels"), then you make a check. The DC is exactly what the text of the spell says: 10+the spell's level.
Why would the former mechanics be negated? It would render upcasting useless except the CHANCE to completely counter the spell.
That's exactly right. Upcasting isn't a guaranteed improvement and is a hard gamble. Counterspell is a very powerful spell that can completely change the course of a battle, but it has the hard downside that you might waste a high level counterspell on a spell that was much lower level than the one being cast, or that you might spend a higher level slot only to have the counterspell fail anyway.
That isn't right. The spell specifically states for 4th level or higher, perform an ability check..." An ability check is rolling against a DC
I'm tempted to say "played properly", but that's prone to start all kinds of tangent arguments.
In every game I've played, when an opponent casts a spell, the level is not advertised. When you choose to counterspell, you have to make the conscious decision to use a higher spell slot, hoping it will be an automatic success, or resort to a lower spell slot and let the dice decide if it works. As far as I know, you should never know the level of the spell when you decide to counterspell.
Then why would it include the "How" to upcast? It specifically states the calculation to include as an ability check for 4th or higher.
"...If it is casting a spell of 4th level or higher, make an ability check using your spellcasting ability."
An ability check tests a character's or monster's innate talent and training in an effort to overcome a challenge. The DM calls for an ability check when a character or monster attempts an action (other than an attack) that has a chance of failure. When the outcome is uncertain, the dice determine the results.
To make an ability check, roll a d20 and add the relevant ability modifier. As with other d20 rolls, apply bonuses and penalties, and compare the total to the DC. If the total equals or exceeds the DC, the ability check is a success--the creature overcomes the challenge at hand. Otherwise, it's a failure, which means the character or monster makes no progress toward the objective or makes progress combined with a setback determined by the DM.
BionGreen, You are implying stuff that isn't written. The former mechanics aren't negated, but they work as written. The upcasting text deals with the second sentence. None of the text that follows is changed. You automatically counter a spell of equal or lesser value to the slot that you used for the counter. If the spell you are countering is greater than 4th level (and not already countered according to sentence 2 or the text under "at higher levels"), then you make a check. The DC is exactly what the text of the spell says: 10+the spell's level.
It's literally the third sentence in the spell.
"If it is casting a spell of 4th level or higher, make an ability check using your spellcasting ability. The DC equals 10 + the spell's level. On a success, the creature's spell fails and has no effect."
When upcasting, make an ability check. How does one make a spell ability check? You make a DC.
Sorry, I was latching on to that specific sentiment, that up casting has a chance to provide zero benefit versus casting at 3rd level.
I don't know how to explain it more clearly than it already has been by several people so far in the thread. The spell works a certain way, and it's not perfect or even ideal in every situation, but it is what it is. If you and your group want to home brew it to be more versatile you're free to do so, but this section of the forum is based on clarifying and discussing the rules as written.
BionGreen, You are implying stuff that isn't written. The former mechanics aren't negated, but they work as written. The upcasting text deals with the second sentence. None of the text that follows is changed. You automatically counter a spell of equal or lesser value to the slot that you used for the counter. If the spell you are countering is greater than 4th level (and not already countered according to sentence 2 or the text under "at higher levels"), then you make a check. The DC is exactly what the text of the spell says: 10+the spell's level.
It's literally the third sentence in the spell.
"If it is casting a spell of 4th level or higher, make an ability check using your spellcasting ability. The DC equals 10 + the spell's level. On a success, the creature's spell fails and has no effect."
When upcasting, make an ability check. How does one make a spell ability check? You make a DC.
I don't know what point you are trying to make here, except that you haven't understood what I've written. You quoted the relevant text. "The DC equals 10 + the spell's level." Only the level of the spell that you are trying to interrupt affects the DC of the check. Nothing in the "at higher levels" section changes that, all that it changes is the part about automatically countering the spell (when you use a slot equal to or higher in level to the one of the spell you are trying to interrupt). It isn't all that complex.
Upcastable spells have two sections in the description. The top part is what the spell does when casting at its base level. The second part begins with "At higher levels" and describes what changes when you upcast - what is not mentioned in this section stays the same as base level.
At base level the Counterspell automatically counters and negates a target spell of 3rd level or lower. For target spells of 4th or higher you make a check. The DC is 10 + the level of the target spell.
At higher levels section changes the level at which Counterspell can automatically negate target spells equal or lower than the level at which you cast Counterspell.
You are right that it doesn't mention the ability check - because there's no point. Anything of equal or lesser level than your Counterspell is automatically negated so no point in rolling, and what isn't automatically negated is going to be higher than 4th level anyway, so then you have to make the check - which remains a DC 10 + the target spell's level.
No where in the description does it say that the DC is altered by your own spell's level. If the check is required it's 10 + target spell's level. You only make the check if the counterspell cannot automatically negate the target spell.
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Upcastable spells have two sections in the description. The top part is what the spell does when casting at its base level. The second part begins with "At higher levels" and describes what changes when you upcast - what is not mentioned in this section stays the same as base level.
At base level the Counterspell automatically counters and negates a target spell of 3rd level or lower. For target spells of 4th or higher you make a check. The DC is 10 + the level of the target spell.
At higher levels section changes the level at which Counterspell can automatically negate target spells equal or lower than the level at which you cast Counterspell.
You are right that it doesn't mention the ability check - because there's no point. Anything of equal or lesser level than your Counterspell is automatically negated so no point in rolling, and what isn't automatically negated is going to be higher than 4th level anyway, so then you have to make the check - which remains a DC 10 + the target spell's level.
No where in the description does it say that the DC is altered by your own spell's level. If the check is required it's 10 + target spell's level. You only make the check if the counterspell cannot automatically negate the target spell.
Then what's the ability check calculation at 4th level or higher? Everyone keeps avoiding this... A calculation/ DC MUST be made at 4th or higher. It is not pass/ fail.
"...If it is casting a spell of 4th level or higher, make an ability check using your spellcasting ability."
An ability check tests a character's or monster's innate talent and training in an effort to overcome a challenge. The DM calls for an ability check when a character or monster attempts an action (other than an attack) that has a chance of failure. When the outcome is uncertain, the dice determine the results.
To make an ability check, roll a d20 and add the relevant ability modifier. As with other d20 rolls, apply bonuses and penalties, and compare the total to the DC. If the total equals or exceeds the DC, the ability check is a success--the creature overcomes the challenge at hand. Otherwise, it's a failure, which means the character or monster makes no progress toward the objective or makes progress combined with a setback determined by the DM.
But if the spell is automatically countered by the higher level casting there's no point in doing the check.
You only make the check if the spell has not already been automatically countered.
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"...If it is casting a spell of 4th level or higher, make an ability check using your spellcasting ability."
Read it again. The "it" that is the second word in this sentence refers to the creature whose spell you are trying to counter. Is that what you misunderstood?
Edited to Clarify that an ability check is performed:
The spell specifically states for casting at 4th level or higher (AKA upcasting), perform an ability check. It is NOT a pass or fail for being upcast -- it is an ability check.
"...If it is casting a spell of 4th level or higher, make an ability check using your spellcasting ability. The DC equals 10 + the spell's level. On a success, the creature's spell fails and has no effect.
At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 4th level or higher, the interrupted spell has no effect if its level is less than or equal to the level of the spell slot you used."
What is an ability check?
Basically:
1. Starting at level 3, to effectively counter an offensive spell, you must meet or exceed the spell level slot with the counterspell.
2. If you use a lower level counterspell slot against a higher level offensive spell, the DC is 10+ the difference of Offensive Spell vs. Counterspell slots.
3. To counter a counterspell, the same mechanics apply, but the Offensive Caster must make or exceed the Defensive Caster's Counterspell Slot used under rules 1 & 2.
4. Countering a counterspell by any additional player maintains the same mechanic in 3 until no more counterspells are cast. e.g. ran out of mages.
Practical Examples: Scenarios 1-9 Given there are no other ability modifiers (Lore Bard Jack of All Trades etc...)
Scenario 1: Player A casts 3rd level spell at player B.
Player B uses reaction counterspell in 3rd level spell slot.
The Offensive Spell is countered.
Scenario 2: Player A casts 4th level spell at player B.
Player B uses reaction to counterspell in 3rd level spell slot.
Player B must meet or exceed the DC to successfully counter the spell.
DC = 10 + (offensive spell slot - level defensive spell slot) = 10+(4-3)= 11
Scenario 3: Player A casts 5th level spell at player B.
Player B uses reaction to counterspell in 4th level spell slot.
Player B must meet or exceed the DC to successfully counter the spell.
DC = 10 + (offensive spell slot - defensive spell slot) = 10 + (5-4) = 11
Scenario 4: Player A casts 7th level spell at player B.
Player B uses reaction to counterspell in 5th level spell slot.
Player B must meet or exceed the DC to successfully counter the spell.
DC = 10 + (offensive spell slot - defensive spell slot) = 10 + (7-5) = 12
Scenario 5: Player A casts 7th level spell at player B.
Player B uses reaction to counterspell in 7th level spell slot.
The Offensive Spell is countered.
Scenario 6: Player A casts 7th level spell at player B.
Player B uses reaction to counterspell in 7th level spell slot.
Player A uses reaction to cast 7th level Counterspell to Player B's Counterspell.
The offensive spell persists.
Scenario 7: Player A casts 7th level spell at player B.
Player B uses reaction to counterspell in 5th level spell slot.
Player B must meet or exceed the DC to successfully counter the spell.
DC = 10 + (offensive spell slot - defensive spell slot) = 10 + (7-5) = 12
Player B meets or exceeds the DC, and succeeds.
Player A uses reaction to cast 7th level Counterspell to Player B's Counterspell.
The offensive spell persists.
Scenario 8: Player A casts 7th level spell at player B.
Player B uses reaction to counterspell in 5th level spell slot.
Player B must meet or exceed the DC to successfully counter the spell.
DC = 10 + (offensive spell slot - defensive spell slot) = 10 + (7-5) = 12
Player B meets or exceeds the DC, and succeeds.
Player A uses reaction to cast 3rd level Counterspell to Player B's Counterspell.
Player A must meet or exceed the DC to successfully counter the counterspell.
DC = 10 + (defensive counterspell slot - offensive counterspell slot) = 10 + (5 - 3) = 12.
Scenario 9: Player A and Player B use all reactions to counter-counterspell, successfully or not. Any additional counterspell may be cast until all players are exhausted of counterspell.
Don't think so. The DC to counterspell is 10 + spell slot level.
That's it.
If an opponent casts a level 4 spell, you counter with a level 3 slot, then the DC is 10 + 4 = 14.
If an opponent casts a level 9 spell, you counter with a level 3 slot, then the DC is 10 + 9 = 19.
The only time you don't roll a check is if your counterspell spell slot is equal or higher than the spell slot being cast.
Sorry, no... if the Spell is cast using a higher level spell slot than the Counterspell, the Check is always 10+ The Spell's level, regardless of what level Counterspell you cast.
For example... if you use a 6th level Counterspell to counter a spell cast at 7th level, the DC is 17. The difference in spell slots between the spell and the counterspell is not a factor... as long as you fail to reach the spell slot of the Spell, the DC does not include any calculations from the Counterspell spell-slot level.
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"2. If you use a lower level counterspell slot against a higher level offensive spell, the DC is 10+ the difference of Offensive Spell vs. Counterspell slots."
This is incorrect.
When you counter spell if the spell you are countering is higher than level then you make the check at DC 10 + the level of the targeted spell. Your own spell's level makes no difference to the DC.
Player A casts Fireball at Level 5.
Player B attempts Counterspell at 4th Level.
Player A tries to Counterspell Player B using at 3rd Level.
To resolve this we work backwards:
Player A makes the check, the DC would be 14. If they got 14 or higher they are successful, they stop the counterspell, the Fireball goes off. If they roll 13 or less, their counterspell fails. And we move to Player B's counterspell.
Player B makes the check, their DC is 15. If they succeed the Fireball is thwarted. If they fail the Fireball goes off.
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What Kerrec said. Whoever Counterspells last is where the "chain" of determining what happens, per Cyb3rM1nd's example.
So it would appear some people are saying the DC is 10+the spell level used. e.g. 5th level offensive spell with a 3rd level spell DC=15.
So then it has no benefit to use higher-level spell slots to counter given your rationale.
The spell states "At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 4th level or higher, the interrupted spell has no effect if its level is less than or equal to the level of the spell slot you used."
Why would the spell explicitly layout that ability check is to be used on 4th level and higher, then lays out the formula? If it's a pass/fail scenario there would be no reason to include ability check...
Why would the former mechanics be negated? It would render upcasting useless except the CHANCE to completely counter the spell?
That's exactly right. Upcasting isn't a guaranteed improvement and is a hard gamble. Counterspell is a very powerful spell that can completely change the course of a battle, but it has the hard downside that you might waste a high level counterspell on a spell that was much lower level than the one being cast, or that you might spend a higher level slot only to have the counterspell fail anyway.
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I'm tempted to say "played properly", but that's prone to start all kinds of tangent arguments.
In every game I've played, when an opponent casts a spell, the level is not advertised. When you choose to counterspell, you have to make the conscious decision to use a higher spell slot, hoping it will be an automatic success, or resort to a lower spell slot and let the dice decide if it works. As far as I know, you should never know the level of the spell when you decide to counterspell.
At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 4th level or higher, the interrupted spell has no effect if its level is less than or equal to the level of the spell slot you used"
BionGreen, You are implying stuff that isn't written. The former mechanics aren't negated, but they work as written. The upcasting text deals with the second sentence. None of the text that follows is changed. You automatically counter a spell of equal or lesser value to the slot that you used for the counter. If the spell you are countering is greater than 4th level (and not already countered according to sentence 2 or the text under "at higher levels"), then you make a check. The DC is exactly what the text of the spell says: 10+the spell's level.
That isn't right. The spell specifically states for 4th level or higher, perform an ability check..." An ability check is rolling against a DC
Then why would it include the "How" to upcast? It specifically states the calculation to include as an ability check for 4th or higher.
"...If it is casting a spell of 4th level or higher, make an ability check using your spellcasting ability."
Why would you think that the DC changes on upcasting when nothing anywhere implies it might?
It's literally the third sentence in the spell.
When upcasting, make an ability check. How does one make a spell ability check? You make a DC.
Sorry, I was latching on to that specific sentiment, that up casting has a chance to provide zero benefit versus casting at 3rd level.
I don't know how to explain it more clearly than it already has been by several people so far in the thread. The spell works a certain way, and it's not perfect or even ideal in every situation, but it is what it is. If you and your group want to home brew it to be more versatile you're free to do so, but this section of the forum is based on clarifying and discussing the rules as written.
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I don't know what point you are trying to make here, except that you haven't understood what I've written. You quoted the relevant text. "The DC equals 10 + the spell's level." Only the level of the spell that you are trying to interrupt affects the DC of the check. Nothing in the "at higher levels" section changes that, all that it changes is the part about automatically countering the spell (when you use a slot equal to or higher in level to the one of the spell you are trying to interrupt). It isn't all that complex.
BionGreen,
Upcastable spells have two sections in the description. The top part is what the spell does when casting at its base level. The second part begins with "At higher levels" and describes what changes when you upcast - what is not mentioned in this section stays the same as base level.
At base level the Counterspell automatically counters and negates a target spell of 3rd level or lower. For target spells of 4th or higher you make a check. The DC is 10 + the level of the target spell.
At higher levels section changes the level at which Counterspell can automatically negate target spells equal or lower than the level at which you cast Counterspell.
You are right that it doesn't mention the ability check - because there's no point. Anything of equal or lesser level than your Counterspell is automatically negated so no point in rolling, and what isn't automatically negated is going to be higher than 4th level anyway, so then you have to make the check - which remains a DC 10 + the target spell's level.
No where in the description does it say that the DC is altered by your own spell's level. If the check is required it's 10 + target spell's level. You only make the check if the counterspell cannot automatically negate the target spell.
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Then what's the ability check calculation at 4th level or higher? Everyone keeps avoiding this... A calculation/ DC MUST be made at 4th or higher. It is not pass/ fail.
"...If it is casting a spell of 4th level or higher, make an ability check using your spellcasting ability."
Yes.
But if the spell is automatically countered by the higher level casting there's no point in doing the check.
You only make the check if the spell has not already been automatically countered.
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"...If it is casting a spell of 4th level or higher, make an ability check using your spellcasting ability."
Read it again. The "it" that is the second word in this sentence refers to the creature whose spell you are trying to counter. Is that what you misunderstood?