I've read through this thread and still have a question. As written, there are ZERO attack spells which can be twinned. I did a search in 'Spells' with the filter, 'Range attack' and not one fits the description given by the metamagic 'Twinned Spell'.
Twinned Spell
Cost: 1 Sorcery Point
When you cast a spell, such as Charm Person, that can be cast with a higher-level spell slot to target an additional creature, you can spend 1 Sorcery Point to increase the spell’s effective level by 1.
So it only affects spells which get more targets by higher level, which far as I can find is not any attack or damaging spell.
Has it truly been neutered so much?
Evan
Well, there are a few damage spells that fire multiple projectiles that can (but don't have to be) directed at different targets, and in which upcasting them provides additional projectiles which could then be used on additional targets. Magic Missile and Scorching Ray come to mind. It's not super clear whether these spells should count for Twinned Spell, but I tend to think they should, partly because it makes the new version a little less awful.
FYI, questions like this are generally better asked in their own thread rather than digging up an unrelated old thread.
Yea, but I have looked at all of them I can find and Magic Missile, Scorching Ray, etc already have the ability to hit multiple targets. The raising of level is not what makes this possible, and like the given example, Charm person explicitly states that raising the level is what makes them hit more than 1 target.
Yea, but I have looked at all of them I can find and Magic Missile, Scorching Ray, etc already have the ability to hit multiple targets. The raising of level is not what makes this possible, and like the given example, Charm person explicitly states that raising the level is what makes them hit more than 1 target.
Right, but the new version of Twinned Spell does not exclude spells that can already target multiple targets. That was the case in the 2014 version, but not in the new version.
It doesn't exclude anything, but in print states unequivocally that when casting a spell that lets you target multiple targets by elevating the casting level you may twin the spell. If a spell does not meet that criteria, it cannot be twinned. Sometimes the rules are fuzzy in 5e/One Dnd...but not here it seems.
I can see where them not specifically saying you cannot do a thing might be interpreted as you CAN do the thing, but when the sign says you have to be tall to ride this ride, you cant get on just cause it didn't say you couldn't be short.
It doesn't exclude anything, but in print states unequivocally that when casting a spell that lets you target multiple targets by elevating the casting level you may twin the spell. If a spell does not meet that criteria, it cannot be twinned. Sometimes the rules are fuzzy in 5e/One Dnd...but not here it seems.
I can see where them not specifically saying you cannot do a thing might be interpreted as you CAN do the thing, but when the sign says you have to be tall to ride this ride, you cant get on just cause it didn't say you couldn't be short.
That's not what it says, though. What it says is
When you cast a spell, such as Charm Person, that can be cast with a higher-level spell slot to target an additional creature...
It does not say anything about it only applying to spells that don't already target multiple creatures (again, that was something from the 2014 version that's no longer present). It only says that it has to be a spell that can target an additional creature (i.e., one more creature than it already targets) when upcast. It's perfectly fine to use it on a spell that already targets multiple creatures, as long as upcasting it would target an additional creature.
So basically... I'm just gonna have to go with whatever spell and maybe try to persuade the DM or my character is just gonna poof ok time for backup character and don't have to keep working on that crap of to twin or not to twin which would suck, favorite metamagic for me. My comment was 2014... not sure but sigh guess I should look at 2024 version and see what mess it is. Hopefully its not another case of see as if visible but they somehow still invisble crap sage advice call.
It doesn't exclude anything, but in print states unequivocally that when casting a spell that lets you target multiple targets by elevating the casting level you may twin the spell. If a spell does not meet that criteria, it cannot be twinned. Sometimes the rules are fuzzy in 5e/One Dnd...but not here it seems.
I can see where them not specifically saying you cannot do a thing might be interpreted as you CAN do the thing, but when the sign says you have to be tall to ride this ride, you cant get on just cause it didn't say you couldn't be short.
That's not what it says, though. What it says is
When you cast a spell, such as Charm Person, that can be cast with a higher-level spell slot to target an additional creature...
It does not say anything about it only applying to spells that don't already target multiple creatures (again, that was something from the 2014 version that's no longer present). It only says that it has to be a spell that can target an additional creature (i.e., one more creature than it already targets) when upcast. It's perfectly fine to use it on a spell that already targets multiple creatures, as long as upcasting it would target an additional creature.
No.
When you cast a spell, such as Charm Person, that can be cast with a higher-level spell slot to target an additional creature, you can spend 1 Sorcery Point to increase the spell’s effective level by 1.
Where in that paragraph says the spell you cast has to be able to target additional targets? " It only says that it has to be a spell that can target an additional creature"
It isn't saying it has to be anything. It's saying if say Charm Person targets one person at spell slot lvl 1 than instead of using a higher spell slot to target more targets you instead just use Sorcery points. So you cast it at lvl 1 spell slot and want to target 2 more targets than instead of using a 3rd lvl spell slot, you use a lvl 1 spell slot and 2 Sorcery points.
In otherwords they basically saying we not clarifying or touching what you can or can't use twin spell on except for adding this one QOL addition so you can use sorc points instead of higher spell slots to use with spells like Charm person.
Unless that is what they meaning and only want that one thing able to do for twinning... which if that is indeed the case why even call it Twinning? Blah maybe this is gonna be like that sage advice on see invis vs invis
Blah I blame lack of sleep and want to say bad word usage but in reality the issue came from me reading the 2024 version while keeping the 2014 version in mind instead of just reading it as if it is a totally different thing not connected... although doesn't help when we still able and told sure use parts of 2014 with 2024 version. I still stand by my they should changed the twinning name for the metamagic option though. They changed it this much its not even close to the same so just put a fork in twinning and change the name.
It isn't saying it has to be anything. It's saying if say Charm Person targets one person at spell slot lvl 1 than instead of using a higher spell slot to target more targets you instead just use Sorcery points. So you cast it at lvl 1 spell slot and want to target 2 more targets than instead of using a 3rd lvl spell slot, you use a lvl 1 spell slot and 2 Sorcery points.
In otherwords they basically saying we not clarifying or touching what you can or can't use twin spell on except for adding this one QOL addition so you can use sorc points instead of higher spell slots to use with spells like Charm person.
I'm sorry, I'm not really able to follow what you're saying here. I think the description of the new Twinned Spell is pretty clear; it applies only to spells where casting the spell with a higher-level slot would add an additional target. Are you trying to say that isn't the case, and you can use it on spells that don't add an additional target when upcast? There doesn't seem to be any support for that in the actual text.
Yeah I was giving too much credit to the workings... ok so yeah they basically made twinned metamagic which really shouldn't still have that name cuz now its just using sorc points instead of higher spell slots for few spells that fit that niche.
Ok if you read my above post just read the last edited paragraph. Thats my final stance on it.
Yeah I was giving too much credit to the workings... ok so yeah they basically made twinned metamagic which really shouldn't still have that name cuz now its just using sorc points instead of higher spell slots for few spells that fit that niche.
I certainly agree that it was a mistake to keep the name, given how different it is from the 2014 version.
So you cast it at lvl 1 spell slot and want to target 2 more targets than instead of using a 3rd lvl spell slot, you use a lvl 1 spell slot and 2 Sorcery points.
is not actually something you can do. You can spend 1 sorcery point to increase the effective level by 1, but you can't spend more sorcery points to increase it by more levels.
I've read through this thread and still have a question. As written, there are ZERO attack spells which can be twinned. I did a search in 'Spells' with the filter, 'Range attack' and not one fits the description given by the metamagic 'Twinned Spell'.
Twinned Spell
Cost: 1 Sorcery Point
When you cast a spell, such as Charm Person, that can be cast with a higher-level spell slot to target an additional creature, you can spend 1 Sorcery Point to increase the spell’s effective level by 1.
So it only affects spells which get more targets by higher level, which far as I can find is not any attack or damaging spell.
Has it truly been neutered so much?
Evan
Well, there are a few damage spells that fire multiple projectiles that can (but don't have to be) directed at different targets, and in which upcasting them provides additional projectiles which could then be used on additional targets. Magic Missile and Scorching Ray come to mind. It's not super clear whether these spells should count for Twinned Spell, but I tend to think they should, partly because it makes the new version a little less awful.
FYI, questions like this are generally better asked in their own thread rather than digging up an unrelated old thread.
I don't know about magic missle but would count it cuz can do more targets and would be even more inclined to add Spellfire Flare "Using a Higher-Level Spell Slot. You create an additional blast for each spell slot level above 1. You can direct the blasts at the same target or at different ones. Make a separate attack roll for each blast."
That one actually mentions additional targets on the higher spell slot part.
Source: Forgotten Realms - Heroes of Faerun
Edited below
"That can be cast with a higher-level spell slot to target an additional creature"
Ok actually yeah, all the spells that add extra beams or blasts or rays that could then be used to target additional targets cuz the higher spell slot would make the spell able to target additional creatures. Says can be cast with higher to target additional and with more beams/rays/blasts you can do it... must you though hehehe.
Yeah I was giving too much credit to the workings... ok so yeah they basically made twinned metamagic which really shouldn't still have that name cuz now its just using sorc points instead of higher spell slots for few spells that fit that niche.
I certainly agree that it was a mistake to keep the name, given how different it is from the 2014 version.
I'm fairly certain that keeping the name was very intentional as that means that it overwrites the 2014 version (officially).
I agree, but not everyone does; some feel that a spell needs to have precisely the type of wording that Charm Person (the example given in the text) has for its upcasting benefits in order to count.
The text is not super clear and it’s been a topic of some heated debate over the last year.
Yeah I was giving too much credit to the workings... ok so yeah they basically made twinned metamagic which really shouldn't still have that name cuz now its just using sorc points instead of higher spell slots for few spells that fit that niche.
I certainly agree that it was a mistake to keep the name, given how different it is from the 2014 version.
I'm fairly certain that keeping the name was very intentional as that means that it overwrites the 2014 version (officially).
Oh yes, I’m sure that’s true. To be clear, when I say it was a mistake I don’t mean I think they did it by mistake; I mean I think it was a bad idea.
Yeah I was giving too much credit to the workings... ok so yeah they basically made twinned metamagic which really shouldn't still have that name cuz now its just using sorc points instead of higher spell slots for few spells that fit that niche.
I certainly agree that it was a mistake to keep the name, given how different it is from the 2014 version.
I'm fairly certain that keeping the name was very intentional as that means that it overwrites the 2014 version (officially).
Oh yes, I’m sure that’s true. To be clear, when I say it was a mistake I don’t mean I think they did it by mistake; I mean I think it was a bad idea.
I thought that as well, but there is at least one instance (escaping me at the moment) where they overwrote the rules while also changing the name. In any case, "twinned" is not what these MM spells are... that's for sure.
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Well, there are a few damage spells that fire multiple projectiles that can (but don't have to be) directed at different targets, and in which upcasting them provides additional projectiles which could then be used on additional targets. Magic Missile and Scorching Ray come to mind. It's not super clear whether these spells should count for Twinned Spell, but I tend to think they should, partly because it makes the new version a little less awful.
FYI, questions like this are generally better asked in their own thread rather than digging up an unrelated old thread.
pronouns: he/she/they
Yea, but I have looked at all of them I can find and Magic Missile, Scorching Ray, etc already have the ability to hit multiple targets. The raising of level is not what makes this possible, and like the given example, Charm person explicitly states that raising the level is what makes them hit more than 1 target.
Right, but the new version of Twinned Spell does not exclude spells that can already target multiple targets. That was the case in the 2014 version, but not in the new version.
pronouns: he/she/they
It doesn't exclude anything, but in print states unequivocally that when casting a spell that lets you target multiple targets by elevating the casting level you may twin the spell. If a spell does not meet that criteria, it cannot be twinned. Sometimes the rules are fuzzy in 5e/One Dnd...but not here it seems.
I can see where them not specifically saying you cannot do a thing might be interpreted as you CAN do the thing, but when the sign says you have to be tall to ride this ride, you cant get on just cause it didn't say you couldn't be short.
That's not what it says, though. What it says is
It does not say anything about it only applying to spells that don't already target multiple creatures (again, that was something from the 2014 version that's no longer present). It only says that it has to be a spell that can target an additional creature (i.e., one more creature than it already targets) when upcast. It's perfectly fine to use it on a spell that already targets multiple creatures, as long as upcasting it would target an additional creature.
pronouns: he/she/they
So basically... I'm just gonna have to go with whatever spell and maybe try to persuade the DM or my character is just gonna poof ok time for backup character and don't have to keep working on that crap of to twin or not to twin which would suck, favorite metamagic for me. My comment was 2014... not sure but sigh guess I should look at 2024 version and see what mess it is. Hopefully its not another case of see as if visible but they somehow still invisble crap sage advice call.
I goofed and did not quote.
No.
When you cast a spell, such as Charm Person, that can be cast with a higher-level spell slot to target an additional creature, you can spend 1 Sorcery Point to increase the spell’s effective level by 1.
Where in that paragraph says the spell you cast has to be able to target additional targets? " It only says that it has to be a spell that can target an additional creature"
It isn't saying it has to be anything. It's saying if say Charm Person targets one person at spell slot lvl 1 than instead of using a higher spell slot to target more targets you instead just use Sorcery points. So you cast it at lvl 1 spell slot and want to target 2 more targets than instead of using a 3rd lvl spell slot, you use a lvl 1 spell slot and 2 Sorcery points.
In otherwords they basically saying we not clarifying or touching what you can or can't use twin spell on except for adding this one QOL addition so you can use sorc points instead of higher spell slots to use with spells like Charm person.
Unless that is what they meaning and only want that one thing able to do for twinning... which if that is indeed the case why even call it Twinning? Blah maybe this is gonna be like that sage advice on see invis vs invis
Blah I blame lack of sleep and want to say bad word usage but in reality the issue came from me reading the 2024 version while keeping the 2014 version in mind instead of just reading it as if it is a totally different thing not connected... although doesn't help when we still able and told sure use parts of 2014 with 2024 version. I still stand by my they should changed the twinning name for the metamagic option though. They changed it this much its not even close to the same so just put a fork in twinning and change the name.
I'm sorry, I'm not really able to follow what you're saying here. I think the description of the new Twinned Spell is pretty clear; it applies only to spells where casting the spell with a higher-level slot would add an additional target. Are you trying to say that isn't the case, and you can use it on spells that don't add an additional target when upcast? There doesn't seem to be any support for that in the actual text.
pronouns: he/she/they
Yeah I was giving too much credit to the workings... ok so yeah they basically made twinned metamagic which really shouldn't still have that name cuz now its just using sorc points instead of higher spell slots for few spells that fit that niche.
Ok if you read my above post just read the last edited paragraph. Thats my final stance on it.
I certainly agree that it was a mistake to keep the name, given how different it is from the 2014 version.
I should also clarify that this:
is not actually something you can do. You can spend 1 sorcery point to increase the effective level by 1, but you can't spend more sorcery points to increase it by more levels.
pronouns: he/she/they
I don't know about magic missle but would count it cuz can do more targets and would be even more inclined to add Spellfire Flare "Using a Higher-Level Spell Slot. You create an additional blast for each spell slot level above 1. You can direct the blasts at the same target or at different ones. Make a separate attack roll for each blast."
That one actually mentions additional targets on the higher spell slot part.
Source: Forgotten Realms - Heroes of Faerun
Edited below
"That can be cast with a higher-level spell slot to target an additional creature"
Ok actually yeah, all the spells that add extra beams or blasts or rays that could then be used to target additional targets cuz the higher spell slot would make the spell able to target additional creatures. Says can be cast with higher to target additional and with more beams/rays/blasts you can do it... must you though hehehe.
I'm fairly certain that keeping the name was very intentional as that means that it overwrites the 2014 version (officially).
I agree, but not everyone does; some feel that a spell needs to have precisely the type of wording that Charm Person (the example given in the text) has for its upcasting benefits in order to count.
The text is not super clear and it’s been a topic of some heated debate over the last year.
pronouns: he/she/they
Oh yes, I’m sure that’s true. To be clear, when I say it was a mistake I don’t mean I think they did it by mistake; I mean I think it was a bad idea.
pronouns: he/she/they
I thought that as well, but there is at least one instance (escaping me at the moment) where they overwrote the rules while also changing the name. In any case, "twinned" is not what these MM spells are... that's for sure.