the players handbook states that when you take a bonus action to cast a spell, you forgo the abillity to cast any spell that is not a cantrip with an casting time of 1 action. But it seems a little ambiguous as to if that applies the other way around, if casting a spell of 1st level or higher as an action on your turn makes you forgo the abillity to cast a spell with a casting time of a bonus action on your turn (like obiously the intended way to read these rules is that it should not really matter in what order you cast your spells, but if you follow the RAW it seems that the order in whom you cast your spells matters loads).
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
If you cast a non-cantrip as an action you will lose the ability to cast a spell as a bonus action. The reason it seems like the order matters is because they had to state one rule first then the other, the alternative is them repeating themselves, "If you cast a spell with a bonus action you may only cast a cantrip with your action" "If you don't cast a cantrip as your action you can't cast a spell as a bonus action" "If you cast a cantrip as your action you can cast a spell as your bonus action if allowed"
^Gets annoying fast. Lets just write it once and know what it means.
It helps to think of this whole rule as being based around casting a bonus action spell. No bonus action spell = no problem. Then you can cast anything your action economy allows for. If you do cast a bonus action spell, then all you can cast additionally is a cantrip with a casting time of one action.
interestingly also, bonus action cantrips cannot be cast with 1st level spells, and an fighter can use an action surge to cast multiple spells despite this rule presumably being there to try and prevent multiple high level spells from being cast at once and despite this rule often being paraphrased as "you cannot cast more than one spell of 1st level or higher in a single turn"
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
interestingly also, bonus action cantrips cannot be cast with 1st level spells, and an fighter can use an action surge to cast multiple spells despite this rule presumably being there to try and prevent multiple high level spells from being cast at once and despite this rule often being paraphrased as "you cannot cast more than one spell of 1st level or higher in a single turn"
Yes, a fighter could use action surge to cast two leveled spells in a turn once/short rest.
However, if bonus action spells and the cast a spell action both allowed the casting of leveled spells then spell casters could do it once every turn and a sorcerer with quickened spell could cast two fireballs almost every turn of every combat. The fighter action surge ability and the ability to cast two leveled spells in a turn using action and bonus action aren't remotely comparable.
You are also correct that if you cast a cantrip as a bonus action (which I think only a sorcerer can do with a quickened cantrip) they can not cast a leveled spell using their action. However, nothing prevents them from quickening the leveled spell and then casting the cantrip as their action. Same result ... so the combination isn't prevented, the sorcerer just needs to choose to cast the leveled spell using quicken rather than the cantrip.
Anyway, the goal of the bonus action spell rule is to prevent casters from constantly casting two leveled spells every turn (one as a bonus action and one as an action). The goal is not to completely prevent the casting of two leveled spells in a turn. One popular build is fighter 2/wizard X for the armor and the option to cast two spells in one turn once in a short rest.
You are also correct that if you cast a cantrip as a bonus action (which I think only a sorcerer can do with a quickened cantrip) they can not cast a leveled spell using their action. However, nothing prevents them from quickening the leveled spell and then casting the cantrip as their action. Same result ... so the combination isn't prevented, the sorcerer just needs to choose to cast the leveled spell using quicken rather than the cantrip.
okay your other points are somewhat valid, the rule is there mostly to balance out full casters. But if i am a druid and i want to cast Shillelagh or magic stone, the game will prevent me from casting entangle in the same turn, or conjure animals, or anything else. Shure certain sorcerers can quicken the cast of an normal spell, but there is absloutely no way in the world for you to "slow down" an spell with an casting time of a single bonus action to an casting time of an action, it is not possible.
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
It would be pretty easy to fix the wording to be clear:
A spell cast with a bonus action is especially swift. You must use a bonus action on your turn to cast the spell, provided that you haven't already taken a bonus action this turn. You can't cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action, and you may not cast a bonus action spell if you have already cast a non-cantrip spell this turn.
That said, the way it's worded does not have any order of operation specified, so this isn't a change in meaning, it's just writing clearly.
On the topic of Shillelagh, there's not a whole lot of reason to cast it unless you're also going to take the attack action (opportunity attacks I guess) and there's no reason to cast Magic Stone.
It would be pretty easy to fix the wording to be clear:
A spell cast with a bonus action is especially swift. You must use a bonus action on your turn to cast the spell, provided that you haven't already taken a bonus action this turn. You can't cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action, and you may not cast a bonus action spell if you have already cast a non-cantrip spell this turn.
That said, the way it's worded does not have any order of operation specified, so this isn't a change in meaning, it's just writing clearly.
On the topic of Shillelagh, there's not a whole lot of reason to cast it unless you're also going to take the attack action (opportunity attacks I guess) and there's no reason to cast Magic Stone.
have you ever heard of using hordes of minions combined with magic stone? or maybe you wanna set up shillegah, use your big spell now and then save your bonus action next turn for something important
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
If I have an action (standard), plus a bonus action (say via a quickened spell) plus a reaction (say via War Caster or Hellish Rebuke), can I cast 3 spells in one turn?
Note: I am aware you can only cast one spell of 1st level and higher per round so, assume any additional castings are cantrips.
Eg. Can a Sor/Warlock cast 2 Eldritch Blasts plus another (or a Firebolt) as a reaction? Could they cast a Hellish Rebuke plus 2 cantrips?
If I have an action (standard), plus a bonus action (say via a quickened spell) plus a reaction (say via War Caster or Hellish Rebuke), can I cast 3 spells in one turn?
Note: I am aware you can only cast one spell of 1st level and higher per round so, assume any additional castings are cantrips.
Eg. Can a Sor/Warlock cast 2 Eldritch Blasts plus another (or a Firebolt) as a reaction? Could they cast a Hellish Rebuke plus 2 cantrips?
you can do better than that, cast hellish rebuke first, before your turn starts or after your turn, cast eldrich blast as an action and follow it up with an bonus action to cast an real gosh darn spell like fireball, that bonus action can be whatever spell you want, from as weak as eldrich blast to as strong as burning hands or fireball, the same is true of hellish rebuke since it is not triggered on your turn. So yeah you can cast three spells per turn, and two of them can be whatever level you want, heck with the war caster feat and some perhaps ridiculous 18 levels in cavalier fighter you can cast an theoretically infinite number of eldrich blasts per turn
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
If I have an action (standard), plus a bonus action (say via a quickened spell) plus a reaction (say via War Caster or Hellish Rebuke), can I cast 3 spells in one turn?
No. If you cast a bonus action spell you cannot cast a reaction spell during the same turn at all -- it isn't a cantrip with a casting time of one action, so you can't cast it (you can cast it on someone else's turn without any restrictions).
You can, however, cast both a levelled reaction spell and a levelled standard action spell in a single turn, or with a fighter dip for action surge, two levelled standard action spells.
If I have an action (standard), plus a bonus action (say via a quickened spell) plus a reaction (say via War Caster or Hellish Rebuke), can I cast 3 spells in one turn?
No. If you cast a bonus action spell you cannot cast a reaction spell during the same turn at all -- it isn't a cantrip with a casting time of one action, so you can't cast it (you can cast it on someone else's turn without any restrictions).
You can, however, cast both a levelled reaction spell and a levelled standard action spell in a single turn, or with a fighter dip for action surge, two levelled standard action spells.
i think what black adder meant was that you could make several spells in a single round, not how many you can make in a turn, considering the fact that both hellish rebuke and opportunity attacks are both things that can pretty much only happen outside your own turn, the bonus action spell blocks your reaction this turn, not this round, so if an ogre runs away or tries to attack immedeatly after you have used your action and bonus action, you are able to use your reaction to attack
edit: wait a second you did say that, now i just kinda seem like an arsehole and an idiot.... guess i missed those parenthesizes
an level 3 sorcerer and lets say level 2 warlock with access to quicken spell is fighting another creature, lets for now say it is an ogre. This sorclock decides on his turn to cast quickened spell to cast the spell scorching ray, dealing a fair bit of damage to the enemy ogre. Since he has now used an bonus action to cast an spell, he cannot use his main action to cast another scorching ray, nor would he be able to cast hellish rebuke on the ogre if he deliberately triggered an opportunity attack from the ogre.
However, after casting scorching ray as a bonus action, he is able to use his action to cast eldritch blast on the ogre, and once his turn is over, the sorclock can use hellish rebuke on the ogre if the ogre attacks him because his turn is over.
If the sorclock uses quicken spell to cast eldritch blast, he would also be unable to cast scorching ray on the ogre with his main action, and he would still be unable, as before, to cast hellish rebuke as an reaction by deliberately triggering an opportunity attack.
if the sorclock decides to never use his bonus action to cast a spell but uses his main action to cast scorching ray, he can use hellish rebuke by deliberately triggering an opportunity attack from the ogre, getting hit and using that to trigger opportunity attack.
if the person was to defeat many more ogres and decide to learn martial combat, he might gain levels in the fighter class. If he becomes an fighter 2/ sorcerer 3/ warlock 2, he could use his action surge to make two actions in a single turn. In doing so he could cast scorching ray two times in a row without issue, but if he uses a bonus action to cast scorching ray, neither his normal action nor an action granted by action surge can be used to cast scorching ray, both must be used to do something else or to cast eldrich blast.
what matters is how you use the bonus action, if you cast a spell with an bonus action, regardless of it is a cantrip or not, you cannot cast any spells of 1st level or higher on your turn, but once your turn is over you can cast leveled spells that are cast as reactions, but you cannot use leveled reaction spells while your turn is still active
sorry if this makes you even more confused
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
It helps to think of this whole rule as being based around casting a bonus action spell. No bonus action spell = no problem. Then you can cast anything your action economy allows for. If you do cast a bonus action spell, then all you can cast additionally is a cantrip with a casting time of one action.
The order of casting doesn't matter.
Guys, it's really no more complicated than this. Quickened spells, action surges, all that stuff. The simple rule above still applies.
It helps to think of this whole rule as being based around casting a bonus action spell. No bonus action spell = no problem. Then you can cast anything your action economy allows for. If you do cast a bonus action spell, then all you can cast additionally is a cantrip with a casting time of one action.
The order of casting doesn't matter.
Guys, it's really no more complicated than this. Quickened spells, action surges, all that stuff. The simple rule above still applies.
yeah it really is just as simple as that
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
Thanks guys. So to summarise a possible round of combat.
Mrs Sorlock wins initiative and:
1. (Bonus action spell) Casts a Quickened spell of any level, then
2. (Action) casts an Eldritch Blast (cantrip), my official actions are now complete, but
3. (Reaction) later in the round, said Ogre now hits me, I can react with a Retributive Strike and get in effect a third casting in during the combat round.
yep, that is about right, note that the war caster feat does allow you to cast any spell as an opportunity attack, as long as it targets only that creature and has a cast time of 1 action
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
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the players handbook states that when you take a bonus action to cast a spell, you forgo the abillity to cast any spell that is not a cantrip with an casting time of 1 action. But it seems a little ambiguous as to if that applies the other way around, if casting a spell of 1st level or higher as an action on your turn makes you forgo the abillity to cast a spell with a casting time of a bonus action on your turn (like obiously the intended way to read these rules is that it should not really matter in what order you cast your spells, but if you follow the RAW it seems that the order in whom you cast your spells matters loads).
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
If you cast a non-cantrip as an action you will lose the ability to cast a spell as a bonus action. The reason it seems like the order matters is because they had to state one rule first then the other, the alternative is them repeating themselves, "If you cast a spell with a bonus action you may only cast a cantrip with your action" "If you don't cast a cantrip as your action you can't cast a spell as a bonus action" "If you cast a cantrip as your action you can cast a spell as your bonus action if allowed"
^Gets annoying fast. Lets just write it once and know what it means.
It helps to think of this whole rule as being based around casting a bonus action spell. No bonus action spell = no problem. Then you can cast anything your action economy allows for. If you do cast a bonus action spell, then all you can cast additionally is a cantrip with a casting time of one action.
The order of casting doesn't matter.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
interestingly also, bonus action cantrips cannot be cast with 1st level spells, and an fighter can use an action surge to cast multiple spells despite this rule presumably being there to try and prevent multiple high level spells from being cast at once and despite this rule often being paraphrased as "you cannot cast more than one spell of 1st level or higher in a single turn"
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
Yes, a fighter could use action surge to cast two leveled spells in a turn once/short rest.
However, if bonus action spells and the cast a spell action both allowed the casting of leveled spells then spell casters could do it once every turn and a sorcerer with quickened spell could cast two fireballs almost every turn of every combat. The fighter action surge ability and the ability to cast two leveled spells in a turn using action and bonus action aren't remotely comparable.
You are also correct that if you cast a cantrip as a bonus action (which I think only a sorcerer can do with a quickened cantrip) they can not cast a leveled spell using their action. However, nothing prevents them from quickening the leveled spell and then casting the cantrip as their action. Same result ... so the combination isn't prevented, the sorcerer just needs to choose to cast the leveled spell using quicken rather than the cantrip.
Anyway, the goal of the bonus action spell rule is to prevent casters from constantly casting two leveled spells every turn (one as a bonus action and one as an action). The goal is not to completely prevent the casting of two leveled spells in a turn. One popular build is fighter 2/wizard X for the armor and the option to cast two spells in one turn once in a short rest.
okay your other points are somewhat valid, the rule is there mostly to balance out full casters. But if i am a druid and i want to cast Shillelagh or magic stone, the game will prevent me from casting entangle in the same turn, or conjure animals, or anything else. Shure certain sorcerers can quicken the cast of an normal spell, but there is absloutely no way in the world for you to "slow down" an spell with an casting time of a single bonus action to an casting time of an action, it is not possible.
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
It would be pretty easy to fix the wording to be clear:
That said, the way it's worded does not have any order of operation specified, so this isn't a change in meaning, it's just writing clearly.
On the topic of Shillelagh, there's not a whole lot of reason to cast it unless you're also going to take the attack action (opportunity attacks I guess) and there's no reason to cast Magic Stone.
have you ever heard of using hordes of minions combined with magic stone? or maybe you wanna set up shillegah, use your big spell now and then save your bonus action next turn for something important
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
If I have an action (standard), plus a bonus action (say via a quickened spell) plus a reaction (say via War Caster or Hellish Rebuke), can I cast 3 spells in one turn?
Note: I am aware you can only cast one spell of 1st level and higher per round so, assume any additional castings are cantrips.
Eg. Can a Sor/Warlock cast 2 Eldritch Blasts plus another (or a Firebolt) as a reaction? Could they cast a Hellish Rebuke plus 2 cantrips?
you can do better than that, cast hellish rebuke first, before your turn starts or after your turn, cast eldrich blast as an action and follow it up with an bonus action to cast an real gosh darn spell like fireball, that bonus action can be whatever spell you want, from as weak as eldrich blast to as strong as burning hands or fireball, the same is true of hellish rebuke since it is not triggered on your turn. So yeah you can cast three spells per turn, and two of them can be whatever level you want, heck with the war caster feat and some perhaps ridiculous 18 levels in cavalier fighter you can cast an theoretically infinite number of eldrich blasts per turn
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
No. If you cast a bonus action spell you cannot cast a reaction spell during the same turn at all -- it isn't a cantrip with a casting time of one action, so you can't cast it (you can cast it on someone else's turn without any restrictions).
You can, however, cast both a levelled reaction spell and a levelled standard action spell in a single turn, or with a fighter dip for action surge, two levelled standard action spells.
i think what black adder meant was that you could make several spells in a single round, not how many you can make in a turn, considering the fact that both hellish rebuke and opportunity attacks are both things that can pretty much only happen outside your own turn, the bonus action spell blocks your reaction this turn, not this round, so if an ogre runs away or tries to attack immedeatly after you have used your action and bonus action, you are able to use your reaction to attackedit: wait a second you did say that, now i just kinda seem like an arsehole and an idiot.... guess i missed those parenthesizes
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
Thanks for your responses guys. However, I'm still a little confused (new to 5e). Could one of you give me a little example?
an level 3 sorcerer and lets say level 2 warlock with access to quicken spell is fighting another creature, lets for now say it is an ogre. This sorclock decides on his turn to cast quickened spell to cast the spell scorching ray, dealing a fair bit of damage to the enemy ogre. Since he has now used an bonus action to cast an spell, he cannot use his main action to cast another scorching ray, nor would he be able to cast hellish rebuke on the ogre if he deliberately triggered an opportunity attack from the ogre.
However, after casting scorching ray as a bonus action, he is able to use his action to cast eldritch blast on the ogre, and once his turn is over, the sorclock can use hellish rebuke on the ogre if the ogre attacks him because his turn is over.
If the sorclock uses quicken spell to cast eldritch blast, he would also be unable to cast scorching ray on the ogre with his main action, and he would still be unable, as before, to cast hellish rebuke as an reaction by deliberately triggering an opportunity attack.
if the sorclock decides to never use his bonus action to cast a spell but uses his main action to cast scorching ray, he can use hellish rebuke by deliberately triggering an opportunity attack from the ogre, getting hit and using that to trigger opportunity attack.
if the person was to defeat many more ogres and decide to learn martial combat, he might gain levels in the fighter class. If he becomes an fighter 2/ sorcerer 3/ warlock 2, he could use his action surge to make two actions in a single turn. In doing so he could cast scorching ray two times in a row without issue, but if he uses a bonus action to cast scorching ray, neither his normal action nor an action granted by action surge can be used to cast scorching ray, both must be used to do something else or to cast eldrich blast.
what matters is how you use the bonus action, if you cast a spell with an bonus action, regardless of it is a cantrip or not, you cannot cast any spells of 1st level or higher on your turn, but once your turn is over you can cast leveled spells that are cast as reactions, but you cannot use leveled reaction spells while your turn is still active
sorry if this makes you even more confused
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
ArtificeMeal, thank you very much :) You pulled it all together brilliantly.
Guys, it's really no more complicated than this. Quickened spells, action surges, all that stuff. The simple rule above still applies.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
yeah it really is just as simple as that
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
Thanks guys. So to summarise a possible round of combat.
Mrs Sorlock wins initiative and:
1. (Bonus action spell) Casts a Quickened spell of any level, then
2. (Action) casts an Eldritch Blast (cantrip), my official actions are now complete, but
3. (Reaction) later in the round, said Ogre now hits me, I can react with a Retributive Strike and get in effect a third casting in during the combat round.
yep, that is about right, note that the war caster feat does allow you to cast any spell as an opportunity attack, as long as it targets only that creature and has a cast time of 1 action
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes