Just wanted to add a few things that I think got missed in the discussion:
RAW, arcana in no way can directly identify a magic item. The exact wording for arcana is-"Your Intelligence (Arcana) check measures your ability to recall lore about spells, magic items, eldritch symbols, magical traditions, the planes of existence, and the inhabitants of those planes."-this only mentions granting knowledge on magic items in a general or historic sense. This wouldn't ever tell you exactly what an object you just picked up is or how it functions unless that specific object has historical significance or is so common place that many people would know it.
The primarily intended way is to identify items is during a rest, however each character may only identify one item during each rest and if that item then requires attunement to use you would then have to spend a second rest in order to attune to it, which is where the identify spell comes in.
The identify spell is the only means to identify an item outside of a rest, either through the normal casting time of 1 minute or as a ritual requiring 11 minutes (10 minutes longer than the normal casting time).
Casting the identify spell does require that the caster use a pearl worth at least 100 gp as a material component for the spell, regardless of whether or not they also use a magical focus or component pouch in place of the owl's feather, however the pearl is not consumed in the casting of the spell and can therefore be reused each time they wish to cast the spell so long as it isn't lost or resold.
Hope this helps anyone who had been wondering why someone would bother with the identify spell at all and I'm more than happy to find and cite the rules and page numbers pertaining to this information for anyone that wants to find them in their own books.
Which would be fair if the levels of cleric were, indeed, part of a single class build. But the game has encouraged multiclassing and so, in order to build a true Romance of the Three Kingdoms wise elder I’m a Monk (obvious choice), Druid (spirits and elementals, mysterious language, elemental based cantrips of which I have all four “shape elements,”) and then Cleric Knowledge Domain. For the first level, maybe two.
With regards to Arcana, yes I could pick that as one of the options but I already had it. And regardless of whether or not you’re trained in it in this particular campaign you can still make the roll and the DC for those rolls is base 10...always. So double proficiency in those is of no use.
Identify, the spell, was the question I posed yes, and it’s use is of concern. But the wider point is that, as the knowledge “person” I’m ultimately maybe 2/3 points in a skill more likely than someone not trained. Because everyone can roll regardless of whether they’re trained or not, or what there character is.
so factor that in, alongside the Identify issue, and you have the reason I have switched to Grave Domain and focused on the Exorcism of spirits as the wisdom here. After all, ranged spare the dying and max hit points to a 0 hit point character is useful in the game. As discussed with the DM.
All really valid points, thanks folks. With regards to the conversation with the DM it has been had and he is continuing with anyone can make an Arcana check to identify an item, at which point he recommended I prepare a different spell. Of course the difficulty is I can’t prepare a different spell as Identify is considered always prepared for Knowledge Domain clerics. Ergo we’ve discussed me changing domains. A sad state of affairs as I was looking forward to playing the wise character who could provide the party with the information they need but I can see that was not to be.
This whole post saddens me...
1. You were looking forward to knowledge domain.
2. You were looking forward to how you planned to role play your char.
3. Now you have to essentially trash those 2 things and start completely fresh now essentially just because the DMs lazy, and didn’t discuss his Homebrew changes better prior to the campaign starting.
None of the other players had to completely give up their character ideas or designs and such I take it? Over (what I consider) stupid and lazy DMing.
And it doesn’t even save time....
scenario 1. I cast identify. Boom.
scenario 2. People roll arcana and no one rolls higher than a 8.
the rolling takes more time and isn’t 100%.
ans then, just the whole scenario I get from this DM doing Homebrew differences that he doesn’t share: what else is different that MIGHT force you to have to change your character again?
is wizard even a good class? Is this a low magic world? Are there anti magic fields all over a place to make you useless again?
Sorry you had to go through this.
Even if the DM was playing by the numbers, the players could spend an hour with the item on a short or long rest "studying" it, they would be able to learn the abilities without an identify spell necessary. That's not the DM being lazy, that's the DM running it the way the rules state it should be run. Requiring them to use arcana actually makes it more difficult than the rules suggest it needs to be!
There's still a lot there in knowledge to make the character shine. He gets two languages. He gets double prof bonus in two skills (of which arcana is one he can pick). he gets a feature that allows him to use any tool with proficiency for 10 minutes. Need a lock picked and no rogue? Knowledge cleric has it covered. At 6th level he can read someone's mind.
Let's not pretend that Identify not working the way the OP wanted is somehow wrecking an otherwise useful character. He's still going to be the knowledge monkey of his party, and will likely be the one making those arcana checks anyways.
DMs invalidating a character concept. For no legitimate justifiable reason....
and read through and note in nowhere by the OP was it stated players were just using short rests to identify things.
so, yeah. That’s lazy/bad DMing. If it wasn’t. And if there weren’t other factors of lazy DMing. OP would not have felt it necessary to change domains from Knowledge to Grave, because the DM invalidated the knowledge domain for the players concept and play style.
please don’t post on threads just to post a hot take and try and stir things up. That’s what private messages are for.
All really valid points, thanks folks. With regards to the conversation with the DM it has been had and he is continuing with anyone can make an Arcana check to identify an item, at which point he recommended I prepare a different spell. Of course the difficulty is I can’t prepare a different spell as Identify is considered always prepared for Knowledge Domain clerics. Ergo we’ve discussed me changing domains. A sad state of affairs as I was looking forward to playing the wise character who could provide the party with the information they need but I can see that was not to be.
This whole post saddens me...
1. You were looking forward to knowledge domain.
2. You were looking forward to how you planned to role play your char.
3. Now you have to essentially trash those 2 things and start completely fresh now essentially just because the DMs lazy, and didn’t discuss his Homebrew changes better prior to the campaign starting.
None of the other players had to completely give up their character ideas or designs and such I take it? Over (what I consider) stupid and lazy DMing.
And it doesn’t even save time....
scenario 1. I cast identify. Boom.
scenario 2. People roll arcana and no one rolls higher than a 8.
the rolling takes more time and isn’t 100%.
ans then, just the whole scenario I get from this DM doing Homebrew differences that he doesn’t share: what else is different that MIGHT force you to have to change your character again?
is wizard even a good class? Is this a low magic world? Are there anti magic fields all over a place to make you useless again?
Sorry you had to go through this.
Even if the DM was playing by the numbers, the players could spend an hour with the item on a short or long rest "studying" it, they would be able to learn the abilities without an identify spell necessary. That's not the DM being lazy, that's the DM running it the way the rules state it should be run. Requiring them to use arcana actually makes it more difficult than the rules suggest it needs to be!
There's still a lot there in knowledge to make the character shine. He gets two languages. He gets double prof bonus in two skills (of which arcana is one he can pick). he gets a feature that allows him to use any tool with proficiency for 10 minutes. Need a lock picked and no rogue? Knowledge cleric has it covered. At 6th level he can read someone's mind.
Let's not pretend that Identify not working the way the OP wanted is somehow wrecking an otherwise useful character. He's still going to be the knowledge monkey of his party, and will likely be the one making those arcana checks anyways.
DMs invalidating a character concept. For no legitimate justifiable reason....
and read through and note in nowhere by the OP was it stated players were just using short rests to identify things.
so, yeah. That’s lazy/bad DMing. If it wasn’t. And if there weren’t other factors of lazy DMing. OP would not have felt it necessary to change domains from Knowledge to Grave, because the DM invalidated the knowledge domain for the players concept and play style.
please don’t post on threads just to post a hot take and try and stir things up. That’s what private messages are for.
bad DMs, do in fact exist.
The DM isn't invalidating his concept. One spell does not a concept make, especially one like identify. Second, even if the DM didn't use Arcana checks, the group could learn the same information on a short rest is the point. The fact is, Identify is a useless spell, taking up a prep slot better used for something...useful, and knowledge clerics are stuck with it regardless. That's not a hot take or trying to stir stuff up. That is simply calling the spade a shovel.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Hope this helps anyone who had been wondering why someone would bother with the identify spell at all…
Additionally, it is a not uncommon house rule that identifying an item during a short rest requires actually using the item (experiementing with it, trying it out, trying to activate its powers). This activates any curses on the item.
Casting identify does not curse the caster. usually…
On the other hand, the identify spell usually does not reveal any curses on the item.
All really valid points, thanks folks. With regards to the conversation with the DM it has been had and he is continuing with anyone can make an Arcana check to identify an item, at which point he recommended I prepare a different spell. Of course the difficulty is I can’t prepare a different spell as Identify is considered always prepared for Knowledge Domain clerics. Ergo we’ve discussed me changing domains. A sad state of affairs as I was looking forward to playing the wise character who could provide the party with the information they need but I can see that was not to be.
This whole post saddens me...
1. You were looking forward to knowledge domain.
2. You were looking forward to how you planned to role play your char.
3. Now you have to essentially trash those 2 things and start completely fresh now essentially just because the DMs lazy, and didn’t discuss his Homebrew changes better prior to the campaign starting.
None of the other players had to completely give up their character ideas or designs and such I take it? Over (what I consider) stupid and lazy DMing.
And it doesn’t even save time....
scenario 1. I cast identify. Boom.
scenario 2. People roll arcana and no one rolls higher than a 8.
the rolling takes more time and isn’t 100%.
ans then, just the whole scenario I get from this DM doing Homebrew differences that he doesn’t share: what else is different that MIGHT force you to have to change your character again?
is wizard even a good class? Is this a low magic world? Are there anti magic fields all over a place to make you useless again?
Sorry you had to go through this.
Even if the DM was playing by the numbers, the players could spend an hour with the item on a short or long rest "studying" it, they would be able to learn the abilities without an identify spell necessary. That's not the DM being lazy, that's the DM running it the way the rules state it should be run. Requiring them to use arcana actually makes it more difficult than the rules suggest it needs to be!
There's still a lot there in knowledge to make the character shine. He gets two languages. He gets double prof bonus in two skills (of which arcana is one he can pick). he gets a feature that allows him to use any tool with proficiency for 10 minutes. Need a lock picked and no rogue? Knowledge cleric has it covered. At 6th level he can read someone's mind.
Let's not pretend that Identify not working the way the OP wanted is somehow wrecking an otherwise useful character. He's still going to be the knowledge monkey of his party, and will likely be the one making those arcana checks anyways.
DMs invalidating a character concept. For no legitimate justifiable reason....
and read through and note in nowhere by the OP was it stated players were just using short rests to identify things.
so, yeah. That’s lazy/bad DMing. If it wasn’t. And if there weren’t other factors of lazy DMing. OP would not have felt it necessary to change domains from Knowledge to Grave, because the DM invalidated the knowledge domain for the players concept and play style.
please don’t post on threads just to post a hot take and try and stir things up. That’s what private messages are for.
bad DMs, do in fact exist.
Completely agree that this is bad DMing. They're probably just carrying over bad information from 3.5e or pathfinder and never did more than skim the 5e rulebook, assuming skills and other rules are all still the same just because the core concept of the game hasn't changed.
Yeah exactly, the issue here isn't the identify spell itself because other characters can just spend some time with an item anyway. The comparison made earlier between ninjas/stealth, and survival/rangers and fighters/combat are not valid comparisons here. If the DM were changing up how all spellcasting works then yeah, that would be comparable. But a singular spell not being as useful as it would otherwise be? C'mon.
If your whole character idea was built around the Identify spell and not the tons of other awesome stuff knowledge clerics can do then thats not a DM issue. The identify spell is just the ability to read a magic item's instruction manual. Assuming that the other characters can't figure out how an item works without reading the instructions isn't fair to them and just because they can doesn't make the whole character idea invalid. That character can still provide a ton of info that the party wouldn't have otherwise.
A knowledge cleric gets augury, arcane eye, expertise in two knowledge skills, at will proficiency and mind reading and every other spell on the cleric's spell list. That character can still provide so much knowledge to the party that they don't already have and Identify was never that valuable to the idea to start with anyway. Don't give up on a character idea so easily.
Arcana is described as: Your Intelligence (Arcana) check measures your ability to recall lore about spells, magic items, eldritch symbols, magical traditions, the planes of existence, and the inhabitants of those planes.
Meaning you can't discern if something is magical by making an Arcana check, only recall lore about magical items.
You need only touch a magic item to know that it is magical, though you gain no understanding of these properties by merely handling the item.
There is a section in the DMG that clearly adjudicates this:
Some magic items are indistinguishable from their nonmagical counterparts, whereas other magic items display their magical nature conspicuously. Whatever a magic item’s appearance, handling the item is enough to give a character a sense that something is extraordinary about it. Discovering a magic item’s properties isn’t automatic, however.
The identify spell is the fastest way to reveal an item’s properties. Alternatively, a character can focus on one magic item during a short rest, while being in physical contact with the item. At the end of the rest, the character learns the item’s properties, as well as how to use them. Potions are an exception; a little taste is enough to tell the taster what the potion does.
I know, I know, it’s literally four years after you posted this, but I wanted to offer some corrections to things I noticed in this thread in case you haven’t found this out in you last four years of play.
1. Identify doesn’t cost anything except a spell slot to cast; that 100 gold value of the pearl is solely an upfront cost, and you don’t need to spend it each time to cast the spell.
2. Clerics can also ritual cast; you don’t need to be a wizard in order to do that. Bards and Druids can as well, or anyone with the Ritual Caster feat.
As for your issue, it sucks that the other group members are doing that to you. I generally wouldn’t let a character roll Arcana to identify a magic item unless they had 16+ intelligence or proficiency in Arcana, and even still wouldn’t be as good or thorough as Identify.
Some magic items are indistinguishable from their nonmagical counterparts, whereas other magic items display their magical nature conspicuously. Whatever a magic item’s appearance, handling the item is enough to give a character a sense that something is extraordinary about it. Discovering a magic item’s properties isn’t automatic, however.
The identify spell is the fastest way to reveal an item’s properties. Alternatively, a character can focus on one magic item during a short rest, while being in physical contact with the item. At the end of the rest, the character learns the item’s properties, as well as how to use them. Potions are an exception; a little taste is enough to tell the taster what the potion does.
Sometimes a magic item carries a clue to its properties. The command word to activate a ring might be etched in tiny letters inside it, or a feathered design might suggest that it’s a ring of feather falling.
Wearing or experimenting with an item can also offer hints about its properties. For example, if a character puts on a ring of jumping, you could say, “Your steps feel strangely springy.” Perhaps the character then jumps up and down to see what happens. You then say the character jumps unexpectedly high.
Variant: More Difficult Identification
If you prefer magic items to have a greater mystique, consider removing the ability to identify the properties of a magic item during a short rest, and require the identify spell, experimentation, or both to reveal what a magic item does.
RAW aside, DM's I've played with and how I rule it, Arcana to do a general/first connection of recognizing the magic, this might be an instant/no check needed, or arcana check to find out general nature. If it has or grants mechanical actions, the studying/learning/training with it is where those come out, *if* the PC does that. I've had items for sessions without ever knowing it had these, and I've granted weapons that were never tapped into until I talked to the PC (who didn't know the concept was available to train with it).
I wouldn't say the DM is wrong, if you want this to be your play style and burn up your own gold, or worse, party resources, ask the DM to accommodate.
Perhaps a moot point in view of the homebrew, but you mentioned that identify costs 100GP. That's not each time you cast it. The 100GP pearl is not consumed by the casting. Just buy it once and reuse it endlessly.
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Just wanted to add a few things that I think got missed in the discussion:
RAW, arcana in no way can directly identify a magic item. The exact wording for arcana is-"Your Intelligence (Arcana) check measures your ability to recall lore about spells, magic items, eldritch symbols, magical traditions, the planes of existence, and the inhabitants of those planes."-this only mentions granting knowledge on magic items in a general or historic sense. This wouldn't ever tell you exactly what an object you just picked up is or how it functions unless that specific object has historical significance or is so common place that many people would know it.
The primarily intended way is to identify items is during a rest, however each character may only identify one item during each rest and if that item then requires attunement to use you would then have to spend a second rest in order to attune to it, which is where the identify spell comes in.
The identify spell is the only means to identify an item outside of a rest, either through the normal casting time of 1 minute or as a ritual requiring 11 minutes (10 minutes longer than the normal casting time).
Casting the identify spell does require that the caster use a pearl worth at least 100 gp as a material component for the spell, regardless of whether or not they also use a magical focus or component pouch in place of the owl's feather, however the pearl is not consumed in the casting of the spell and can therefore be reused each time they wish to cast the spell so long as it isn't lost or resold.
Hope this helps anyone who had been wondering why someone would bother with the identify spell at all and I'm more than happy to find and cite the rules and page numbers pertaining to this information for anyone that wants to find them in their own books.
Which would be fair if the levels of cleric were, indeed, part of a single class build. But the game has encouraged multiclassing and so, in order to build a true Romance of the Three Kingdoms wise elder I’m a Monk (obvious choice), Druid (spirits and elementals, mysterious language, elemental based cantrips of which I have all four “shape elements,”) and then Cleric Knowledge Domain. For the first level, maybe two.
With regards to Arcana, yes I could pick that as one of the options but I already had it. And regardless of whether or not you’re trained in it in this particular campaign you can still make the roll and the DC for those rolls is base 10...always. So double proficiency in those is of no use.
Identify, the spell, was the question I posed yes, and it’s use is of concern. But the wider point is that, as the knowledge “person” I’m ultimately maybe 2/3 points in a skill more likely than someone not trained. Because everyone can roll regardless of whether they’re trained or not, or what there character is.
so factor that in, alongside the Identify issue, and you have the reason I have switched to Grave Domain and focused on the Exorcism of spirits as the wisdom here. After all, ranged spare the dying and max hit points to a 0 hit point character is useful in the game. As discussed with the DM.
DMs invalidating a character concept. For no legitimate justifiable reason....
and read through and note in nowhere by the OP was it stated players were just using short rests to identify things.
so, yeah. That’s lazy/bad DMing. If it wasn’t. And if there weren’t other factors of lazy DMing. OP would not have felt it necessary to change domains from Knowledge to Grave, because the DM invalidated the knowledge domain for the players concept and play style.
please don’t post on threads just to post a hot take and try and stir things up. That’s what private messages are for.
bad DMs, do in fact exist.
Watch me on twitch
The DM isn't invalidating his concept. One spell does not a concept make, especially one like identify. Second, even if the DM didn't use Arcana checks, the group could learn the same information on a short rest is the point. The fact is, Identify is a useless spell, taking up a prep slot better used for something...useful, and knowledge clerics are stuck with it regardless. That's not a hot take or trying to stir stuff up. That is simply calling the spade a shovel.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Additionally, it is a not uncommon house rule that identifying an item during a short rest requires actually using the item (experiementing with it, trying it out, trying to activate its powers). This activates any curses on the item.
Casting identify does not curse the caster. usually…
On the other hand, the identify spell usually does not reveal any curses on the item.
Completely agree that this is bad DMing. They're probably just carrying over bad information from 3.5e or pathfinder and never did more than skim the 5e rulebook, assuming skills and other rules are all still the same just because the core concept of the game hasn't changed.
Yeah exactly, the issue here isn't the identify spell itself because other characters can just spend some time with an item anyway. The comparison made earlier between ninjas/stealth, and survival/rangers and fighters/combat are not valid comparisons here. If the DM were changing up how all spellcasting works then yeah, that would be comparable. But a singular spell not being as useful as it would otherwise be? C'mon.
If your whole character idea was built around the Identify spell and not the tons of other awesome stuff knowledge clerics can do then thats not a DM issue. The identify spell is just the ability to read a magic item's instruction manual. Assuming that the other characters can't figure out how an item works without reading the instructions isn't fair to them and just because they can doesn't make the whole character idea invalid. That character can still provide a ton of info that the party wouldn't have otherwise.
A knowledge cleric gets augury, arcane eye, expertise in two knowledge skills, at will proficiency and mind reading and every other spell on the cleric's spell list. That character can still provide so much knowledge to the party that they don't already have and Identify was never that valuable to the idea to start with anyway. Don't give up on a character idea so easily.
Arcana is described as: Your Intelligence (Arcana) check measures your ability to recall lore about spells, magic items, eldritch symbols, magical traditions, the planes of existence, and the inhabitants of those planes.
Meaning you can't discern if something is magical by making an Arcana check, only recall lore about magical items.
You need only touch a magic item to know that it is magical, though you gain no understanding of these properties by merely handling the item.
There is a section in the DMG that clearly adjudicates this:
Some magic items are indistinguishable from their nonmagical counterparts, whereas other magic items display their magical nature conspicuously. Whatever a magic item’s appearance, handling the item is enough to give a character a sense that something is extraordinary about it. Discovering a magic item’s properties isn’t automatic, however.
The identify spell is the fastest way to reveal an item’s properties. Alternatively, a character can focus on one magic item during a short rest, while being in physical contact with the item. At the end of the rest, the character learns the item’s properties, as well as how to use them. Potions are an exception; a little taste is enough to tell the taster what the potion does.
I know, I know, it’s literally four years after you posted this, but I wanted to offer some corrections to things I noticed in this thread in case you haven’t found this out in you last four years of play.
1. Identify doesn’t cost anything except a spell slot to cast; that 100 gold value of the pearl is solely an upfront cost, and you don’t need to spend it each time to cast the spell.
2. Clerics can also ritual cast; you don’t need to be a wizard in order to do that. Bards and Druids can as well, or anyone with the Ritual Caster feat.
As for your issue, it sucks that the other group members are doing that to you. I generally wouldn’t let a character roll Arcana to identify a magic item unless they had 16+ intelligence or proficiency in Arcana, and even still wouldn’t be as good or thorough as Identify.
DMG: Identifying a Magic Item, Chapter 7, Treasure
Some magic items are indistinguishable from their nonmagical counterparts, whereas other magic items display their magical nature conspicuously. Whatever a magic item’s appearance, handling the item is enough to give a character a sense that something is extraordinary about it. Discovering a magic item’s properties isn’t automatic, however.
The identify spell is the fastest way to reveal an item’s properties. Alternatively, a character can focus on one magic item during a short rest, while being in physical contact with the item. At the end of the rest, the character learns the item’s properties, as well as how to use them. Potions are an exception; a little taste is enough to tell the taster what the potion does.
Sometimes a magic item carries a clue to its properties. The command word to activate a ring might be etched in tiny letters inside it, or a feathered design might suggest that it’s a ring of feather falling.
Wearing or experimenting with an item can also offer hints about its properties. For example, if a character puts on a ring of jumping, you could say, “Your steps feel strangely springy.” Perhaps the character then jumps up and down to see what happens. You then say the character jumps unexpectedly high.
Variant: More Difficult Identification
If you prefer magic items to have a greater mystique, consider removing the ability to identify the properties of a magic item during a short rest, and require the identify spell, experimentation, or both to reveal what a magic item does.
RAW aside, DM's I've played with and how I rule it, Arcana to do a general/first connection of recognizing the magic, this might be an instant/no check needed, or arcana check to find out general nature. If it has or grants mechanical actions, the studying/learning/training with it is where those come out, *if* the PC does that. I've had items for sessions without ever knowing it had these, and I've granted weapons that were never tapped into until I talked to the PC (who didn't know the concept was available to train with it).
I wouldn't say the DM is wrong, if you want this to be your play style and burn up your own gold, or worse, party resources, ask the DM to accommodate.
Perhaps a moot point in view of the homebrew, but you mentioned that identify costs 100GP. That's not each time you cast it. The 100GP pearl is not consumed by the casting. Just buy it once and reuse it endlessly.