I had a situation this weekend where a player was in a jail cell, and wanted to cast Mage Hand, and use the hand to pickpocket the jail keeper.
Now, I totally realize in retrospect that using Mage Hand for that purpose (unless the character is a rogue with Mage Hand Legerdemain) should not be allowed. Regardless, the question remains, what kind of actions should induce combat? What if the player was a rogue and could try to pick the jail keeper's pocket? Should combat begin? It's confusing because a player that wants to pick the pocket of someone in the middle of a busy marketplace only needs to make a Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) check. Pickpocketing a random person does NOT mean initiative should be rolled. It's just a skill check.
There are other spells that aren't necessarily "hostile" like Charm Person. Every time a player casts Charm Person, should that trigger combat?
Roll initiative whenever timing matters. For example, if the character needs to get a spell off before the guard can react and ring the alarm bell, roll initiative (for everyone).
If timing doesn't matter, don't worry about it, just narrate results.
I'm kind of a mix of the 2 above answers. Since they are not in combat and if the rolls go well and the keys could be taken with no one the wiser then there's no need to roll initiative. However, if the rolls go poorly I would then roll initiative for everyone as it could trigger combat.
So I'd say use your judgment. If anything about the spell, or the results of the spell effects could lead to combat then roll initiative. It just makes it easier than everyone trying to jump in with actions before initiative starts.
I'm kind of a mix of the 2 above answers. Since they are not in combat and if the rolls go well and the keys could be taken with no one the wiser then there's no need to roll initiative. However, if the rolls go poorly I would then roll initiative for everyone as it could trigger combat.
So I'd say use your judgment. If anything about the spell, or the results of the spell effects could lead to combat then roll initiative. It just makes it easier than everyone trying to jump in with actions before initiative starts.
If you find that your party goes Murder Hobo whenever you say the magical incantation "Roll Initiative", you can balance this by having everyone roll 3 d20s at the beginning of every session. Write down the results and have these be the initiatives in scenarios like this. You could even potentially save the unused ones for the next session. Just explain to the party what you are doing and you should be good. This will allow them to try to sort things out in ways that could lead to combat without them automatically getting the bloodlust that seems to follow "Roll Initiative".
I don't think Initiative would be required in this case, just a skill check. The person trying to pick the pocket makes a Sleight Of Hand check vs the guard's Passive Perception to see if they notice the attempt. This is exactly the sort of thing Passive Perception is meant for, to see if they notice something they aren't actively trying to perceive. Now, that would be for the actual pickpocket attempt. Depending on the circumstances, separate checks may be appropriate to see if the guard notices a) the spell being cast, and b) the hand trying to pick his pocket. In the end, it's up to the DM how granular they want to get with the rolls.
This is exactly the sort of thing Passive Perception is meant for, to see if they notice something they aren't actively trying to perceive.
I need to stop you there. Passive rolls in 5E have nothing to do with anything a character in the game is doing or not doing. They are for when the players of the game don't want to roll dice, usually for one of two reasons - reducing metagaming and saving time.
The GM could use passive rolls for the guard's WIS (Perception) against the character's DEX (Sleight of Hand); they could also call for rolls for one or both of the ability checks. Personally, I like rolling dice so I'd call for a roll from the player and I'd make a roll for the guard.
This is exactly the sort of thing Passive Perception is meant for, to see if they notice something they aren't actively trying to perceive.
I need to stop you there. Passive rolls in 5E have nothing to do with anything a character in the game is doing or not doing. They are for when the players of the game don't want to roll dice, usually for one of two reasons - reducing metagaming and saving time.
...no.
So this is from the PHB: A passive check is a special kind of ability check that doesn't involve any die rolls. Such a check can represent the average result for a task done repeatedly, such as searching for secret doors over and over again, or can be used when the DM wants to secretly determine whether the characters succeed at something without rolling dice, such as noticing a hidden monster.
10+modifier and either plus or minus 5 depending on advantage or disadvantage.
Yes, DM discretion for when they want to use passives or if to use them at all but considering certain feats revolve around passive perception/investigation scores(observant) and traveling at a fast pace imposes a -5 penalty on passive perception there is 100% a reason for why they exist.
Typical fashion is "My character is actively looking for a blue gem on this floor" - Ok, now their passive perception is on. If they just walk by anything in the room their passive perception would beat, hey congrats you find it.
"Hey, I want to search that corner of the room there". Player has now described something more specific, alright roll those dice and lets see where it falls.
To contribute to the OP. To me, the guard would be on alert at least from a passive point of view from threats. He's a guard! It's literally their job to keep you in the jail cell. I'd give him a passive perception to notice the mage hand but I'd also ask the player to describe how they were trying to cast the spell. Mage Hand requires verbal and somatic components so the caster is at the very least speaking and to me using their hand to mimic the actions of the mage hand. I might give the guard advantage on the check(so a +5) if the key is in a pocket or pouch or something. The moment the guard notices he is being pickpocketed I'd ask for the imitative roll. Guards might not be magical but they aren't magically stupid. If the person in the cell just cast a spell successfully they are obviously dangerous and would take appropriate actions.
This is exactly the sort of thing Passive Perception is meant for, to see if they notice something they aren't actively trying to perceive.
I need to stop you there. Passive rolls in 5E have nothing to do with anything a character in the game is doing or not doing. They are for when the players of the game don't want to roll dice, usually for one of two reasons - reducing metagaming and saving time.
The GM could use passive rolls for the guard's WIS (Perception) against the character's DEX (Sleight of Hand); they could also call for rolls for one or both of the ability checks. Personally, I like rolling dice so I'd call for a roll from the player and I'd make a roll for the guard.
Though that may be in addition to, it says explicitly unless 2 (or more) parties are actively looking for one another, you roll stealth against another's passive perception. It's why EVERY monster stat block has passive perception, not passive insight or investigation like PCs do. It's meant to be 'passive' something you may or may not notice without actively putting effort into looking. How observant you are at a glance.
Even a few published adventures say specific times to specifically go against a player's passive perception score when having something/someone surprise them.
I'm not sure how this turned into an active vs. passive skill thread but now that it has I'd like to weigh in. Passive is just what it says. No effort required. So in the example that SPideycloned gave of "My character is actively looking for..." isn't passive, that's a roll because you are actively looking in my opinion.
Here's how I view passive. It's like peripheral vision. It's always there but you don't really think about it. It's also where some planning has to come in on the Dm's side.
Say as a DM I know there's 2 secret doors. One is a DC15 to detect, the other is DC20. As the party walks by someone has a passive of 16. They would notice something without even knowing they were looking for something. I would say something along the lines of "Tom, most of this passageway has been covered with cobwebs but you notice a 3' section that seems clear of them" (or something along those lines to hint that it's been seen in the peripheral)
No one in the group has a passive over 20 so unless someone says "I'm going to take a look for other passageways" and rolls over a 20, they have no chance of finding them.
I'm not sure how this turned into an active vs. passive skill thread but now that it has I'd like to weigh in. Passive is just what it says. No effort required. So in the example that SPideycloned gave of "My character is actively looking for..." isn't passive, that's a roll because you are actively looking in my opinion.
Here's how I view passive. It's like peripheral vision. It's always there but you don't really think about it. It's also where some planning has to come in on the Dm's side.
Say as a DM I know there's 2 secret doors. One is a DC15 to detect, the other is DC20. As the party walks by someone has a passive of 16. They would notice something without even knowing they were looking for something. I would say something along the lines of "Tom, most of this passageway has been covered with cobwebs but you notice a 3' section that seems clear of them" (or something along those lines to hint that it's been seen in the peripheral)
No one in the group has a passive over 20 so unless someone says "I'm going to take a look for other passageways" and rolls over a 20, they have no chance of finding them.
Right, I agree with most of this but you also took half the words out of that sentence which makes it why its a passive. Passives are used in a general sense(the entire floor of a dungeon), where rolls are used in specifics. "Hey, keep an eye out for X item we're looking for" to me triggers passives. The party wouldn't normally be looking for that thing, but now they are keeping an eye out. They aren't actively searching every nook and cranny, but as they go through rooms they are being mindful. The second someone goes "Search that desk for it", now it's roll based. Even without it I will probably give out in the open stuff away because its out in the open. The player with a lower perception who says hey I was looking for blue gem might instantly notice it sitting on the table versus the guy who normally has a higher perception since he was actively looking for it. The player with the higher perception might have had their attention diverted elsewhere.
I get what you're saying. I agree that saying looking for X while looking for Y would trigger a passive if you stumble over X. Totally. I'm just taking it further that you don't even have to be looking for X at all to notice X if it's within your passive range. For instance, as pointed out in the passive description, noticing a hidden monster. You don't have to be walking through a dungeon saying I'm looking for a hidden monster if that monster is only hiding on a 12 and your passive is 14. You'll sense it. No keep an eye out necessary.
I also agree that actively searching for something can cloud a passive ability, like your blue gem example. I know it's kind of a slippery slope but using my vision example, when you're focused on something you loose your peripheral. Like most things in D&D it's about where the DM draws the lines.
I appreciate everyone's input. Regarding passive perception, I think the one thing I would sort of disagree with is the concept that passive perception is something that is "triggered". Passive perception is always on. It is meant to be an average result if you were to roll a bunch of times. Jeremy Crawford has actually said that it can be considered a floor or minimum. I can understand where that would makes sense and I can also see certain instances where the chance of failing an active check should feel real, and therefore, using a perception floor makes things too automatic/easy.
Back to the original question, I think I should have handled it this way.
1. Allowing the player to use mage hand in that way was probably not really RAW or RAI I unless the guard's pocket was really baggy/wide (resembling an open container). Using it in a stealthy way is a feature that an Arcane Trickster gets so I feel that implies that the spell cannot be used in a stealthy way right out of the box. But I just wanted my player to succeed, so no big deal, it was a fun encounter.
2. I should have then set a DC and then made a passive perception check for the guard. I wouldn't have the player make a Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) check because I don't think Mage Hand can be used in a stealthy manner. The spell caster just has no chance to be stealthy.
3. Whatever happens next should depend on initiative.
So probably the end result is the guard notices in this situation. And that kinda makes sense (to me).
2. I should have then set a DC and then made a passive perception check for the guard. I wouldn't have the player make a Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) check because I don't think Mage Hand can be used in a stealthy manner. The spell caster just has no chance to be stealthy..
Just pointing out something with this point in particular:
There is a variant rule that skills can be governed by other stats. like intimidation can be governed by strength or if you're swimming through choppy waves you'd make a Con (athletics).. or like tying/untying a knot is recommended to go INT (sleight of hands), I personally like to ask my DMs if I can go CHA (arcana) when deducing magic things.
... going that route, you may want to possibly do Wis/Int/Cha (sleight of hands) (depending on the casters spell stat) or possibly DEX (arcana) since you're trying to be dexterous but with your magic?
Yurei (I think you've read some of her posts around the forums) brought up a very valid point. Whenever a player wants to do something, the DM looks at the skill list then asks the player for the most appropriate skill then stat (if you do the variant rule)... Instead consider the correct stat is used, then what skill it would apply to
Back to the question of what triggers combat, the DM decides what makes the npc's trigger combat. If you cast charm person and the person isn't going to assault you if you fail, it doesn't trigger combat. You just cast the spell and see how the npc reacts.
As far as the mage hand, I don't think it would trigger combat unless you were caught. I don't see how rolling initiative and having a turn order is going to affect the outcome of either you getting caught or successfully opening the lock.
It's much like speaking with the npc's. Combat is triggered when the players or the npc's are tired of talking and ready to fight.
Back to the question of what triggers combat, the DM decides what makes the npc's trigger combat. If you cast charm person and the person isn't going to assault you if you fail, it doesn't trigger combat. You just cast the spell and see how the npc reacts.
As far as the mage hand, I don't think it would trigger combat unless you were caught. I don't see how rolling initiative and having a turn order is going to affect the outcome of either you getting caught or successfully opening the lock.
It's much like speaking with the npc's. Combat is triggered when the players or the npc's are tired of talking and ready to fight.
I agree with this wholeheartedly, but there are players that hear "Roll Initiative" as if you're saying "Round 1. Fight!" Knowing your players will help you know what to expect and help them approach the scenario in a way that will help them be the most open about the outcome.
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Hi there,
I had a situation this weekend where a player was in a jail cell, and wanted to cast Mage Hand, and use the hand to pickpocket the jail keeper.
Now, I totally realize in retrospect that using Mage Hand for that purpose (unless the character is a rogue with Mage Hand Legerdemain) should not be allowed. Regardless, the question remains, what kind of actions should induce combat? What if the player was a rogue and could try to pick the jail keeper's pocket? Should combat begin? It's confusing because a player that wants to pick the pocket of someone in the middle of a busy marketplace only needs to make a Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) check. Pickpocketing a random person does NOT mean initiative should be rolled. It's just a skill check.
There are other spells that aren't necessarily "hostile" like Charm Person. Every time a player casts Charm Person, should that trigger combat?
Thanks
Roll initiative whenever timing matters. For example, if the character needs to get a spell off before the guard can react and ring the alarm bell, roll initiative (for everyone).
If timing doesn't matter, don't worry about it, just narrate results.
I don't consider it combat, but creative use of a spell.
Cedo nulli, Calcanda semel via leti.
Parvi sed magni.
I'm kind of a mix of the 2 above answers. Since they are not in combat and if the rolls go well and the keys could be taken with no one the wiser then there's no need to roll initiative. However, if the rolls go poorly I would then roll initiative for everyone as it could trigger combat.
So I'd say use your judgment. If anything about the spell, or the results of the spell effects could lead to combat then roll initiative. It just makes it easier than everyone trying to jump in with actions before initiative starts.
That's what happens when you wear a helmet your whole life!
My house rules
If you find that your party goes Murder Hobo whenever you say the magical incantation "Roll Initiative", you can balance this by having everyone roll 3 d20s at the beginning of every session. Write down the results and have these be the initiatives in scenarios like this. You could even potentially save the unused ones for the next session. Just explain to the party what you are doing and you should be good. This will allow them to try to sort things out in ways that could lead to combat without them automatically getting the bloodlust that seems to follow "Roll Initiative".
I don't think Initiative would be required in this case, just a skill check. The person trying to pick the pocket makes a Sleight Of Hand check vs the guard's Passive Perception to see if they notice the attempt. This is exactly the sort of thing Passive Perception is meant for, to see if they notice something they aren't actively trying to perceive. Now, that would be for the actual pickpocket attempt. Depending on the circumstances, separate checks may be appropriate to see if the guard notices a) the spell being cast, and b) the hand trying to pick his pocket. In the end, it's up to the DM how granular they want to get with the rolls.
I need to stop you there. Passive rolls in 5E have nothing to do with anything a character in the game is doing or not doing. They are for when the players of the game don't want to roll dice, usually for one of two reasons - reducing metagaming and saving time.
The GM could use passive rolls for the guard's WIS (Perception) against the character's DEX (Sleight of Hand); they could also call for rolls for one or both of the ability checks. Personally, I like rolling dice so I'd call for a roll from the player and I'd make a roll for the guard.
...no.
So this is from the PHB: A passive check is a special kind of ability check that doesn't involve any die rolls. Such a check can represent the average result for a task done repeatedly, such as searching for secret doors over and over again, or can be used when the DM wants to secretly determine whether the characters succeed at something without rolling dice, such as noticing a hidden monster.
10+modifier and either plus or minus 5 depending on advantage or disadvantage.
Yes, DM discretion for when they want to use passives or if to use them at all but considering certain feats revolve around passive perception/investigation scores(observant) and traveling at a fast pace imposes a -5 penalty on passive perception there is 100% a reason for why they exist.
Typical fashion is "My character is actively looking for a blue gem on this floor" - Ok, now their passive perception is on. If they just walk by anything in the room their passive perception would beat, hey congrats you find it.
"Hey, I want to search that corner of the room there". Player has now described something more specific, alright roll those dice and lets see where it falls.
To contribute to the OP. To me, the guard would be on alert at least from a passive point of view from threats. He's a guard! It's literally their job to keep you in the jail cell. I'd give him a passive perception to notice the mage hand but I'd also ask the player to describe how they were trying to cast the spell. Mage Hand requires verbal and somatic components so the caster is at the very least speaking and to me using their hand to mimic the actions of the mage hand. I might give the guard advantage on the check(so a +5) if the key is in a pocket or pouch or something. The moment the guard notices he is being pickpocketed I'd ask for the imitative roll. Guards might not be magical but they aren't magically stupid. If the person in the cell just cast a spell successfully they are obviously dangerous and would take appropriate actions.
Though that may be in addition to, it says explicitly unless 2 (or more) parties are actively looking for one another, you roll stealth against another's passive perception. It's why EVERY monster stat block has passive perception, not passive insight or investigation like PCs do. It's meant to be 'passive' something you may or may not notice without actively putting effort into looking. How observant you are at a glance.
Even a few published adventures say specific times to specifically go against a player's passive perception score when having something/someone surprise them.
I'm not sure how this turned into an active vs. passive skill thread but now that it has I'd like to weigh in. Passive is just what it says. No effort required. So in the example that SPideycloned gave of "My character is actively looking for..." isn't passive, that's a roll because you are actively looking in my opinion.
Here's how I view passive. It's like peripheral vision. It's always there but you don't really think about it. It's also where some planning has to come in on the Dm's side.
Say as a DM I know there's 2 secret doors. One is a DC15 to detect, the other is DC20. As the party walks by someone has a passive of 16. They would notice something without even knowing they were looking for something. I would say something along the lines of "Tom, most of this passageway has been covered with cobwebs but you notice a 3' section that seems clear of them" (or something along those lines to hint that it's been seen in the peripheral)
No one in the group has a passive over 20 so unless someone says "I'm going to take a look for other passageways" and rolls over a 20, they have no chance of finding them.
That's what happens when you wear a helmet your whole life!
My house rules
Right, I agree with most of this but you also took half the words out of that sentence which makes it why its a passive. Passives are used in a general sense(the entire floor of a dungeon), where rolls are used in specifics. "Hey, keep an eye out for X item we're looking for" to me triggers passives. The party wouldn't normally be looking for that thing, but now they are keeping an eye out. They aren't actively searching every nook and cranny, but as they go through rooms they are being mindful. The second someone goes "Search that desk for it", now it's roll based. Even without it I will probably give out in the open stuff away because its out in the open. The player with a lower perception who says hey I was looking for blue gem might instantly notice it sitting on the table versus the guy who normally has a higher perception since he was actively looking for it. The player with the higher perception might have had their attention diverted elsewhere.
I get what you're saying. I agree that saying looking for X while looking for Y would trigger a passive if you stumble over X. Totally. I'm just taking it further that you don't even have to be looking for X at all to notice X if it's within your passive range. For instance, as pointed out in the passive description, noticing a hidden monster. You don't have to be walking through a dungeon saying I'm looking for a hidden monster if that monster is only hiding on a 12 and your passive is 14. You'll sense it. No keep an eye out necessary.
I also agree that actively searching for something can cloud a passive ability, like your blue gem example. I know it's kind of a slippery slope but using my vision example, when you're focused on something you loose your peripheral. Like most things in D&D it's about where the DM draws the lines.
That's what happens when you wear a helmet your whole life!
My house rules
I appreciate everyone's input. Regarding passive perception, I think the one thing I would sort of disagree with is the concept that passive perception is something that is "triggered". Passive perception is always on. It is meant to be an average result if you were to roll a bunch of times. Jeremy Crawford has actually said that it can be considered a floor or minimum. I can understand where that would makes sense and I can also see certain instances where the chance of failing an active check should feel real, and therefore, using a perception floor makes things too automatic/easy.
Back to the original question, I think I should have handled it this way.
1. Allowing the player to use mage hand in that way was probably not really RAW or RAI I unless the guard's pocket was really baggy/wide (resembling an open container). Using it in a stealthy way is a feature that an Arcane Trickster gets so I feel that implies that the spell cannot be used in a stealthy way right out of the box. But I just wanted my player to succeed, so no big deal, it was a fun encounter.
2. I should have then set a DC and then made a passive perception check for the guard. I wouldn't have the player make a Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) check because I don't think Mage Hand can be used in a stealthy manner. The spell caster just has no chance to be stealthy.
3. Whatever happens next should depend on initiative.
So probably the end result is the guard notices in this situation. And that kinda makes sense (to me).
Just pointing out something with this point in particular:
There is a variant rule that skills can be governed by other stats. like intimidation can be governed by strength or if you're swimming through choppy waves you'd make a Con (athletics).. or like tying/untying a knot is recommended to go INT (sleight of hands), I personally like to ask my DMs if I can go CHA (arcana) when deducing magic things.
... going that route, you may want to possibly do Wis/Int/Cha (sleight of hands) (depending on the casters spell stat) or possibly DEX (arcana) since you're trying to be dexterous but with your magic?
Yurei (I think you've read some of her posts around the forums) brought up a very valid point. Whenever a player wants to do something, the DM looks at the skill list then asks the player for the most appropriate skill then stat (if you do the variant rule)... Instead consider the correct stat is used, then what skill it would apply to
Back to the question of what triggers combat, the DM decides what makes the npc's trigger combat. If you cast charm person and the person isn't going to assault you if you fail, it doesn't trigger combat. You just cast the spell and see how the npc reacts.
As far as the mage hand, I don't think it would trigger combat unless you were caught. I don't see how rolling initiative and having a turn order is going to affect the outcome of either you getting caught or successfully opening the lock.
It's much like speaking with the npc's. Combat is triggered when the players or the npc's are tired of talking and ready to fight.
I agree with this wholeheartedly, but there are players that hear "Roll Initiative" as if you're saying "Round 1. Fight!" Knowing your players will help you know what to expect and help them approach the scenario in a way that will help them be the most open about the outcome.