My player has 2 Hand Crossbows as a ranger and is wanting to dual wield them. Another issue is that he has the multi attack feature from his ranger but doesn't have the Crossbow Master feat. What can he do in one turn?
Dual wieilding hand crossbows is actually feasible since the player's handbook states that it has the "light" property. However there is absolutely no point in dual wieilding because it it cannot be used for two-weapon fighting, the player's handbook specifically stating "light melee weapon" meaning that ranged attacks cannot benefit from this feature. Also, he will not be able to use extra attack with the crossbow because of the loading property which states "because of the time required to load this weapon, you can fire only one piece of ammunition from it when you use an action, bonus action or reaction to fire it, regardless of the number of attacks you can normally make". This means that even though he has the extra attack feature, he may only use the crossbow for one of his attacks. Currently, without the crossbow expert feat, he will only be able to make one attack with the crossbow per turn. However if he was able to get the crossbow expert feat, this would allow for 2 additional attacks with the crossbow, 1 for a bonus action attack and another because the loading property is ignored meaning that he can now use extra attack with the crossbow.
You can hold a hand crossbow one-handed. You can fire a hand crossbow one-handed. But you can't reload either of them with a crossbow in each hand. Kind of takes the cool out of it, eh?
The biggest problem with trying to wield two Hand-Crossbows at the same time (even with the Crossbow Expert Feat) is the ammunition property (which the feat does NOT remove). It requires a free hand to reload them. This means if you wield two Hand-Crossbows and fire them both - they will now be empty and you can't reload them without putting one of them away.
The issue is - even if you could reload them while holding them both - you won't get any more attacks than you would just holding one. With the Crossbow Expert Feat you make all of your attacks with your action including the extra attacks - and then one with the bonus action. This would be the same if you use two or if you use one.
Basically what they want to do would only be possible if you let them reload the crossbows without a free hand - AND if they had the Crossbow Expert Feat.
If they don't have the Crossbow Expert Feat then their option is to attack once (per loaded crossbow) and no more than that. Crossbow Expert Feat is required to remove the loading property.
The only possible way to dual wield crossbows would be to pre-load them first. There are no official rules for this, but as DM you could try to work something out with your player. Since hand crossbows actually have the "light" property, the problem is not holding and firing them both at the same time, but as Emmber mentioned, the ammunition property. So, you could technically fire them both on your first turn, but after that it would be pretty much impossible to use both.
The only possible way I know of using RAW would be to have two Artificers in the player's group. Each one can infuse one of the player's Hand-Crossbows with the Repeating Shot infusion. This would remove the ammunition property - and combined with the Crossbow Expert Feat to remove the loading property - it would work.
But it would be a complete waste - as I said before - because the player would have no more attacks than the same character just using one Hand-Crossbow and the Crossbow Expert feat would.
The biggest problem with trying to wield two Hand-Crossbows at the same time (even with the Crossbow Expert Feat) is the ammunition property (which the feat does NOT remove). It requires a free hand to reload them. This means if you wield two Hand-Crossbows and fire them both - they will now be empty and you can't reload them without putting one of them away.
The issue is - even if you could reload them while holding them both - you won't get any more attacks than you would just holding one. With the Crossbow Expert Feat you make all of your attacks with your action including the extra attacks - and then one with the bonus action. This would be the same if you use two or if you use one.
Basically what they want to do would only be possible if you let them reload the crossbows without a free hand - AND if they had the Crossbow Expert Feat.
If they don't have the Crossbow Expert Feat then their option is to attack once (per loaded crossbow) and no more than that. Crossbow Expert Feat is required to remove the loading property.
So if they were able to fire both in one round, how long would you say it takes to reload both crossbows.
Well - they would need to free up one hand to be able to reload them. Freeing up a hand requires the character either drop or otherwise stow one of the crossbows. Stowing requires an object interaction - and characters only get 1 of those free per turn. So they could stow one and reload the other in one turn. The following turn they would have to swap - but that would take 2 interactions - so they'd either have to use their action to swap both - or stow / unstow one and do the other the following turn.
Basically it's not feasible. They would spend far more time reloading their crossbows than they would firing them. 2-3 turns to reload for one turn of firing.
When it offers absolutely no benefits over using a single hand-crossbow with the Feat - it's not even pointless - it's chocolate teapot levels of useless.
Edit: They could have a whole load of loaded crossbows on their person (which would realistically be really tricky) - and after firing just drop them both - then next turn draw two more preloaded ones. To do this though they would need the Dual Wielder feat purely for the ability to draw two weapons in one turn. They wouldn't be able to do that otherwise. This is basically what pirates used to do with single shot pistols. Instead of taking time to reload them - they'd just draw another.
also as a side note: Using two Artificers to use Repeating Shot also lets you ignore the loading property. "This magic weapon grants a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls made with it when it’s used to make a ranged attack, and it ignores the loading property if it has it."
so, theoretically, if you have two Artificers who let you use one of their infusion slots to have two Repeating Hand Crossbows, you would be able to dual wield them... except for the fact that you still couldn't use Two-Weapon Fighting with them since that specifies a melee attack.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
Two hand crossbow means, assuming you start with them both loaded, you can fire 1, drop it, then fire the other in thee same round, allowing someone with the extra attack feature to fire two handcrossbows in the very first round of combat. That's it. Not much of a benefit, but reasonable for a drow fighter type to do before they draw their sword and attack
also as a side note: Using two Artificers to use Repeating Shot also lets you ignore the loading property. "This magic weapon grants a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls made with it when it’s used to make a ranged attack, and it ignores the loading property if it has it."
so, theoretically, if you have two Artificers who let you use one of their infusion slots to have two Repeating Hand Crossbows, you would be able to dual wield them... except for the fact that you still couldn't use Two-Weapon Fighting with them since that specifies a melee attack.
Repeating shot allows you to ignore the loading property, it does not allow you to ignore the ammunition property. (though it does let you ignore the ammunition itself) This means that while you can fire multiple times with a single crossbow, you still need a free hand to properly load the bolt.
also as a side note: Using two Artificers to use Repeating Shot also lets you ignore the loading property. "This magic weapon grants a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls made with it when it’s used to make a ranged attack, and it ignores the loading property if it has it."
so, theoretically, if you have two Artificers who let you use one of their infusion slots to have two Repeating Hand Crossbows, you would be able to dual wield them... except for the fact that you still couldn't use Two-Weapon Fighting with them since that specifies a melee attack.
Repeating shot allows you to ignore the loading property, it does not allow you to ignore the ammunition property. (though it does let you ignore the ammunition itself) This means that while you can fire multiple times with a single crossbow, you still need a free hand to properly load the bolt.
It literally generates its own ammunition and ignores the loading property.
"If you load no ammunition in the weapon, it produces its own, automatically creating one piece of magic ammunition when you make a ranged attack with it. The ammunition created by the weapon vanishes the instant after it hits or misses a target." You don't literally don't need ammo at all, and you don't need the free hand to load the bolt because it ignores the loading property, and it creates its own ammo. I don't see where you still need a free hand??
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Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
It literally generates its own ammunition and ignores the loading property.
"If you load no ammunition in the weapon, it produces its own, automatically creating one piece of magic ammunition when you make a ranged attack with it. The ammunition created by the weapon vanishes the instant after it hits or misses a target." You don't literally don't need ammo at all, and you don't need the free hand to load the bolt because it ignores the loading property, and it creates its own ammo. I don't see where you still need a free hand??
It generates its own ammunition, which means you don't need to carry ammo. It ignores the loading property, which means you can fire multiple shots with a single action. (provided you are able to do so) It does not remove the ammunition property so you are still required to use your other hand to ready the weapon to fire. It might be easy to convince your DM to go along with you, but by the rules you still need a free hand.
It does not remove the ammunition property so you are still required to use your other hand to ready the weapon to fire. It might be easy to convince your DM to go along with you, but by the rules you still need a free hand.
It doesn't remove the ammunition property wholesale because the weapon still uses ammo and they want to give you the option to load it the old-fashioned way. However, this part of the ammunition rules...
Drawing the ammunition from a quiver, case, or other container is part of the attack (you need a free hand to load a one-handed weapon).
...clearly no longer applies if you're choosing not to load your own ammo and let the weapon generate its own.
Seriously there is so much contradiction in this thread. It literally says ignore reload property? How do you get that the PC still needs a free hand? And the main benefit would be to shoot 2 different crossbows,
I do agree with a lot being said. Here's how. I DM'd it.
My player has 2 hand crossbows with all the crossbow feats he can get. Inorder to attack 3 times, he must forgo half his movement speed to take a knee and reload his crossbows. He also had fashioned leather straps attached to the handles of his crossbows so when he drops them they hang at his wrists.
Seriously there is so much contradiction in this thread. It literally says ignore reload property? How do you get that the PC still needs a free hand?
Crossbow Expert allows you to ignore the Loading property - but not the Ammunition property - and it's the Ammunition property that requires you to have a free hand to reload.
My player has 2 Hand Crossbows as a ranger and is wanting to dual wield them. Another issue is that he has the multi attack (you mean Extra Attack?) feature from his ranger but doesn't have the Crossbow Master feat. What can he do in one turn?
Back to the OP's question... your player can load a single Crossbow, Hand & fire it once. Loading happens at the time you make an attack, not before, per the Ammunition property. There is no "pre-loading" of ranged weapons.
Your player could (don't.. just don't.) drop (not stow... drop on the ground) their first crossbow, draw their second crossbow, and load/fire it once. Don't do this.
Just have them take the Crossbow Expert feat, tell them to just use one Crossbow, Hand, and be done with it. If you want to deep-dive into why you shouldn't ever bother attempting to wield two crossbows, read this thread. The synopsis is: even if you can fulfill all of the prerequisites for being able to operate two Crossbow, Hand (which requires a minimum of two Artificers and the Crossbow Expert feat) without juggling shenanigans, it's not worth it. You will never be able to achieve more crossbow attacks per round than you can with a single Crossbow, Hand.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Wrong link, Sigred, that's the Ranger class entry. But while there's a million hairs to split along the way, the conclusion (just wield a hand crossbow, dual wielding adds nothing) is sound.
I'm basically of the opinion that I will let my players have the things they want as long as it doesn't break the game.
Someone wants to dual wield hand crossbows with the Crossbow Expert Feat?
Fine by me. We'll get around the "ammunition" part by saying they've got little gnomish mechanical crossbows that can fire from a "magazine" (like a Chu Ko Nu or whatever). Pew pew pew. Fire all the crossbow bolts. The "needing one free hand to load" part is the only conflict here.
They want a cool thing for their character concept, and it doesn't present any real sort of balance issue. Let 'em have it. I know this part of the forum is overflowing with finicky and pedantic rules lawyers, but I personally don't see the problem.
If you want to boil it down to some actual rules/balance reasons ANYWAY:
Crossbow Expert allows you to shoot from the same hand crossbow twice anyway. If you have extra attack, that becomes 3 times.
So holding one or two crossbows makes absolutely no difference here, mechanically speaking.
Therefore, having two crossbows is just flavour for your player. Saying no to your player's flavour for their character, which has precisely zero mechanical impact on your game, just makes you an arsehole DM.
Now, as to the OP's question about doing this without the feat:
I'm still saying yes. It's pure flavour, and actually a bit weaker than simply using a shortbow (due to the range restrictions). One in each hand because s/he thinks that's cool and wants to pew pew people with double hand crossbows? Sure. Why the hell not. Zero mechanical impact on the game. No balance issues. Justify the loading and firing part however your player wants to explain it.
The bottom line is, as long as it doesn't present a balance issue: let your players have nice things and don't take them away for arbitrary rules reasons!
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My player has 2 Hand Crossbows as a ranger and is wanting to dual wield them. Another issue is that he has the multi attack feature from his ranger but doesn't have the Crossbow Master feat. What can he do in one turn?
Dual wieilding hand crossbows is actually feasible since the player's handbook states that it has the "light" property. However there is absolutely no point in dual wieilding because it it cannot be used for two-weapon fighting, the player's handbook specifically stating "light melee weapon" meaning that ranged attacks cannot benefit from this feature. Also, he will not be able to use extra attack with the crossbow because of the loading property which states "because of the time required to load this weapon, you can fire only one piece of ammunition from it when you use an action, bonus action or reaction to fire it, regardless of the number of attacks you can normally make". This means that even though he has the extra attack feature, he may only use the crossbow for one of his attacks. Currently, without the crossbow expert feat, he will only be able to make one attack with the crossbow per turn. However if he was able to get the crossbow expert feat, this would allow for 2 additional attacks with the crossbow, 1 for a bonus action attack and another because the loading property is ignored meaning that he can now use extra attack with the crossbow.
You can hold a hand crossbow one-handed. You can fire a hand crossbow one-handed. But you can't reload either of them with a crossbow in each hand. Kind of takes the cool out of it, eh?
"Not all those who wander are lost"
The biggest problem with trying to wield two Hand-Crossbows at the same time (even with the Crossbow Expert Feat) is the ammunition property (which the feat does NOT remove). It requires a free hand to reload them. This means if you wield two Hand-Crossbows and fire them both - they will now be empty and you can't reload them without putting one of them away.
The issue is - even if you could reload them while holding them both - you won't get any more attacks than you would just holding one. With the Crossbow Expert Feat you make all of your attacks with your action including the extra attacks - and then one with the bonus action. This would be the same if you use two or if you use one.
Basically what they want to do would only be possible if you let them reload the crossbows without a free hand - AND if they had the Crossbow Expert Feat.
If they don't have the Crossbow Expert Feat then their option is to attack once (per loaded crossbow) and no more than that. Crossbow Expert Feat is required to remove the loading property.
Mega Yahtzee Thread:
Highest 41: brocker2001 (#11,285).
Yahtzee of 2's: Emmber (#36,161).
Lowest 9: JoeltheWalrus (#312), Emmber (#12,505) and Dertinus (#20,953).
What everyone else said unfortunately...but as DM you can rule as you see fit. It's your game.
The only possible way to dual wield crossbows would be to pre-load them first. There are no official rules for this, but as DM you could try to work something out with your player. Since hand crossbows actually have the "light" property, the problem is not holding and firing them both at the same time, but as Emmber mentioned, the ammunition property. So, you could technically fire them both on your first turn, but after that it would be pretty much impossible to use both.
The only possible way I know of using RAW would be to have two Artificers in the player's group. Each one can infuse one of the player's Hand-Crossbows with the Repeating Shot infusion. This would remove the ammunition property - and combined with the Crossbow Expert Feat to remove the loading property - it would work.
But it would be a complete waste - as I said before - because the player would have no more attacks than the same character just using one Hand-Crossbow and the Crossbow Expert feat would.
Mega Yahtzee Thread:
Highest 41: brocker2001 (#11,285).
Yahtzee of 2's: Emmber (#36,161).
Lowest 9: JoeltheWalrus (#312), Emmber (#12,505) and Dertinus (#20,953).
So if they were able to fire both in one round, how long would you say it takes to reload both crossbows.
Well - they would need to free up one hand to be able to reload them. Freeing up a hand requires the character either drop or otherwise stow one of the crossbows. Stowing requires an object interaction - and characters only get 1 of those free per turn. So they could stow one and reload the other in one turn. The following turn they would have to swap - but that would take 2 interactions - so they'd either have to use their action to swap both - or stow / unstow one and do the other the following turn.
Basically it's not feasible. They would spend far more time reloading their crossbows than they would firing them. 2-3 turns to reload for one turn of firing.
When it offers absolutely no benefits over using a single hand-crossbow with the Feat - it's not even pointless - it's chocolate teapot levels of useless.
Edit:
They could have a whole load of loaded crossbows on their person (which would realistically be really tricky) - and after firing just drop them both - then next turn draw two more preloaded ones. To do this though they would need the Dual Wielder feat purely for the ability to draw two weapons in one turn. They wouldn't be able to do that otherwise.
This is basically what pirates used to do with single shot pistols. Instead of taking time to reload them - they'd just draw another.
Mega Yahtzee Thread:
Highest 41: brocker2001 (#11,285).
Yahtzee of 2's: Emmber (#36,161).
Lowest 9: JoeltheWalrus (#312), Emmber (#12,505) and Dertinus (#20,953).
also as a side note: Using two Artificers to use Repeating Shot also lets you ignore the loading property. "This magic weapon grants a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls made with it when it’s used to make a ranged attack, and it ignores the loading property if it has it."
so, theoretically, if you have two Artificers who let you use one of their infusion slots to have two Repeating Hand Crossbows, you would be able to dual wield them... except for the fact that you still couldn't use Two-Weapon Fighting with them since that specifies a melee attack.
Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
People think hands = attacks. Nope. AIMING = attacks. Hands = reloads.
Two hand crossbow means, assuming you start with them both loaded, you can fire 1, drop it, then fire the other in thee same round, allowing someone with the extra attack feature to fire two handcrossbows in the very first round of combat. That's it. Not much of a benefit, but reasonable for a drow fighter type to do before they draw their sword and attack
Repeating shot allows you to ignore the loading property, it does not allow you to ignore the ammunition property. (though it does let you ignore the ammunition itself) This means that while you can fire multiple times with a single crossbow, you still need a free hand to properly load the bolt.
It literally generates its own ammunition and ignores the loading property.
"If you load no ammunition in the weapon, it produces its own, automatically creating one piece of magic ammunition when you make a ranged attack with it. The ammunition created by the weapon vanishes the instant after it hits or misses a target." You don't literally don't need ammo at all, and you don't need the free hand to load the bolt because it ignores the loading property, and it creates its own ammo. I don't see where you still need a free hand??
Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
It generates its own ammunition, which means you don't need to carry ammo. It ignores the loading property, which means you can fire multiple shots with a single action. (provided you are able to do so) It does not remove the ammunition property so you are still required to use your other hand to ready the weapon to fire. It might be easy to convince your DM to go along with you, but by the rules you still need a free hand.
It doesn't remove the ammunition property wholesale because the weapon still uses ammo and they want to give you the option to load it the old-fashioned way. However, this part of the ammunition rules...
...clearly no longer applies if you're choosing not to load your own ammo and let the weapon generate its own.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
Seriously there is so much contradiction in this thread. It literally says ignore reload property? How do you get that the PC still needs a free hand? And the main benefit would be to shoot 2 different crossbows,
I do agree with a lot being said. Here's how. I DM'd it.
My player has 2 hand crossbows with all the crossbow feats he can get. Inorder to attack 3 times, he must forgo half his movement speed to take a knee and reload his crossbows. He also had fashioned leather straps attached to the handles of his crossbows so when he drops them they hang at his wrists.
Crossbow Expert allows you to ignore the Loading property - but not the Ammunition property - and it's the Ammunition property that requires you to have a free hand to reload.
Mega Yahtzee Thread:
Highest 41: brocker2001 (#11,285).
Yahtzee of 2's: Emmber (#36,161).
Lowest 9: JoeltheWalrus (#312), Emmber (#12,505) and Dertinus (#20,953).
Back to the OP's question... your player can load a single Crossbow, Hand & fire it once. Loading happens at the time you make an attack, not before, per the Ammunition property. There is no "pre-loading" of ranged weapons.
Your player could (don't.. just don't.) drop (not stow... drop on the ground) their first crossbow, draw their second crossbow, and load/fire it once. Don't do this.
Just have them take the Crossbow Expert feat, tell them to just use one Crossbow, Hand, and be done with it. If you want to deep-dive into why you shouldn't ever bother attempting to wield two crossbows, read this thread. The synopsis is: even if you can fulfill all of the prerequisites for being able to operate two Crossbow, Hand (which requires a minimum of two Artificers and the Crossbow Expert feat) without juggling shenanigans, it's not worth it. You will never be able to achieve more crossbow attacks per round than you can with a single Crossbow, Hand.
[edit] Whoops, fixed the link. Thanks CC.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Wrong link, Sigred, that's the Ranger class entry. But while there's a million hairs to split along the way, the conclusion (just wield a hand crossbow, dual wielding adds nothing) is sound.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
I'm basically of the opinion that I will let my players have the things they want as long as it doesn't break the game.
Someone wants to dual wield hand crossbows with the Crossbow Expert Feat?
Fine by me. We'll get around the "ammunition" part by saying they've got little gnomish mechanical crossbows that can fire from a "magazine" (like a Chu Ko Nu or whatever). Pew pew pew. Fire all the crossbow bolts. The "needing one free hand to load" part is the only conflict here.
They want a cool thing for their character concept, and it doesn't present any real sort of balance issue. Let 'em have it. I know this part of the forum is overflowing with finicky and pedantic rules lawyers, but I personally don't see the problem.
If you want to boil it down to some actual rules/balance reasons ANYWAY:
Crossbow Expert allows you to shoot from the same hand crossbow twice anyway. If you have extra attack, that becomes 3 times.
So holding one or two crossbows makes absolutely no difference here, mechanically speaking.
Therefore, having two crossbows is just flavour for your player. Saying no to your player's flavour for their character, which has precisely zero mechanical impact on your game, just makes you an arsehole DM.
Now, as to the OP's question about doing this without the feat:
I'm still saying yes. It's pure flavour, and actually a bit weaker than simply using a shortbow (due to the range restrictions). One in each hand because s/he thinks that's cool and wants to pew pew people with double hand crossbows? Sure. Why the hell not. Zero mechanical impact on the game. No balance issues. Justify the loading and firing part however your player wants to explain it.
The bottom line is, as long as it doesn't present a balance issue: let your players have nice things and don't take them away for arbitrary rules reasons!