Hi, my build is mostly working around the beautiful synergy of Thunderous Smite & Booming Blade, however as the smite has a strength save (thus can fail) I was wondering about adding some redundancy in with Superiority Dice, namely Menacing Attack, as if both succeed it’s not a problem, but either should get the job done.
My question: Do I know if Thunderous Smite will successfully knock-back, before or after choosing to add the Menacing Attack die (‘On-Hit’)?
Alternatively, would Eldritch Knight’s Eldritch Strike work? Hit the target, then the next saving throw would by Thunderous Smite (seems to be the opposite order)?
You choose to add the Menacing attack when you hit. Thunderous smite has a Strength save to avoid moving back. To me, that means it happens a fraction of a second later as the victim tries to withstand it via his muscles.
Eldritch knight did not use proper commas (Number = where the comma should go if they meant that option). As such, I can not answer the question. Depends on which of the following is true:
When you hit a creature with a weapon attack, that creature has disadvantage on the next saving throw it makes 1 (against a spell you cast before the end of your next turn.)
When you hit a creature with a weapon attack, that creature has (disadvantage on the next saving throw it makes against a spell you cast)2 before the end of your next turn.
You talk about the synergy of thunderous smite and booming blade. While they do compliment each other well, are you counting the knock back from thunderous smite as an activator for booming blade's movement damage? Because I'm pretty sure it's not supposed to work that way.
Menacing Attack does cause the frightened status but doesn't force movement. Using it as a quasi-disengage is interesting. Maybe consider the Mobile feat or a three level dip in rogue for Swashbuckler's Fancy Footwork or 2 for Cunning Action. Sneak attack doesn't work with Polearms, but carrying daggers to throw as ranged weapons could give a use for that and use strength as the attack stat. That's still a heavy investment. Mobile feat would probably be better, especially if you're eventually thinking of going fighter to at least 8 to ensure an extra ASI (Six gets you the extra one, but depending on what your other levels are, it just speeds up the ASI and doesn't give an extra).
No, I’m counting it as extra damage and a free disengage so that they have to move if they want to do anything.
Menacing Attack does cause the frightened status but doesn't force movement. Using it as a quasi-disengage is interesting.
I was talking about Thunderous Smite there but it is a good point, though I am aware that Menacing Attack is only a quasi-disengage, the positive is that is stacks with Thunderous Smite rather than conflicts. Therefore, I could use both to reduce my own vulnerability and increase the chance of enemy movement and opportunity attacks.
If I impose the Frightened and I have knocked the creature back and prone, I can use my movement and Action Surge to follow up with another attack at advantage. If they don’t run from me in their turn, and take significant damage from my Opportunity Attack, their attacks will still be at disadvantage anyway.
But if I have only used Menacing Attack by itself or only that was successful - I do have the option of walking away and their Opportunity Attack will be at disadvantage (they also will not be able to follow me) which can be useful if my health is low.
I also have Action Surge, I can simply Shove a creature with that (or use Command: Flee).
Edit: I could go Pushing Attack to essentially give disadvantage on the save against being pushed... But if both do succeed then the target would be prone and pushed 25ft away, which is pretty cool (Pushing Attack has a max of 15ft, but Thunderous Smite doesn’t).
I’d imagine it would be quite cinematic to literally send someone flying like that, and have tactical applications as well... at lv11 (Monk 1 / Cleric 6 / Fighter 4) I’d get an additional 10ft knock-back, from the Zeal Domain (3rd party) ability Resounding Strike (same as Tempest Domain, but a knock-back with Thunder damage instead).
Thunderous Smite (10ft & prone), Booming Blade, Pushing Attack (15ft), Resounding Strike (10ft no save). Then a 30ft Move. Finally, Action Surge, Thunderwave (10ft) and Resounding Strike (10ft). I’d imagine I could do a lot with a 55ft knock-back.
As per Jeremy Crawford, a shove can also be diagonally upward... so a 35ft knockback diagonally upward would add 3d6 bludgeoning damage?
I think yours is a pretty generous interpretation of JC's tweet :) I read his words as saying you can push diagonally away as long as it is not upward.
As an aside, I had to spend some time working on your build to make it work. It's pretty impressive that you can pull off so much at level 7. You put a lot of eggs into the "I'm going to build up and then have one kick ass round!" basket, but if you roll well and the enemy does not, then yeah, you are going to produce some fireworks.
As per Jeremy Crawford, a shove can also be diagonally upward... so a 35ft knockback diagonally upward would add 3d6 bludgeoning damage?
I think yours is a pretty generous interpretation of JC's tweet :) I read his words as saying you can push diagonally away as long as it is not upward.
As an aside, I had to spend some time working on your build to make it work. It's pretty impressive that you can pull off so much at level 7. You put a lot of eggs into the "I'm going to build up and then have one kick ass round!" basket, but if you roll well and the enemy does not, then yeah, you are going to produce some fireworks.
Yeah to be honest, I’m aware it is, but linguistically as a response to a question about height specifying that the problem is not rules, but that you are not underneath the enemy then saying that diagonals are fine... I think there is credit (not that I’d use that much, because just adding free damage would be too strong... and also I suppose you should only add half the height as the enemy still needs to come back down.
Yeah it is fully possible to blow everything in one round, but that would be unadvisable... also since I have a familiar I can use that for advantage to help mitigate some of the risk.
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D&D, Youth Work and the Priesthood sadly do not typically interact... I do what I can!
Yeah , I think you are misunderstanding what is meant by diagonal in this case. Instead of being pushed straight back, you could shove it to the left or right diagonally away from you. Perhaps into a burning brazier or off a tower, for example. I'm pretty sure no one means launching your enemy up in the air to cause falling damage.
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Hi, my build is mostly working around the beautiful synergy of Thunderous Smite & Booming Blade, however as the smite has a strength save (thus can fail) I was wondering about adding some redundancy in with Superiority Dice, namely Menacing Attack, as if both succeed it’s not a problem, but either should get the job done.
My question: Do I know if Thunderous Smite will successfully knock-back, before or after choosing to add the Menacing Attack die (‘On-Hit’)?
Alternatively, would Eldritch Knight’s Eldritch Strike work? Hit the target, then the next saving throw would by Thunderous Smite (seems to be the opposite order)?
You choose to add the Menacing attack when you hit. Thunderous smite has a Strength save to avoid moving back. To me, that means it happens a fraction of a second later as the victim tries to withstand it via his muscles.
Eldritch knight did not use proper commas (Number = where the comma should go if they meant that option). As such, I can not answer the question. Depends on which of the following is true:
Hmmm, I agree with the first and thus saving Menacing Attack for when I really can’t take the chance that the knock-back will fail.
I don’t like it when rules are ambiguous, because even of they do end up being ruled in your favour... it just feels like home-brew
You talk about the synergy of thunderous smite and booming blade. While they do compliment each other well, are you counting the knock back from thunderous smite as an activator for booming blade's movement damage? Because I'm pretty sure it's not supposed to work that way.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
No, I’m counting it as extra damage and a free disengage so that they are have to move if they want to do anything.
My character also has Polearm Master and Warcaster, so if they reengage me, they’ll take 6d8+3 damage (at level 6).
My character is a convoluted multi-class, but this is possible, and more effective, as a Half Elf (High) Paladin... which could multi-class...
Conquest Paladin 5 Fighter 2
18str 12dex 14con 8int 10wis 16cha (standard array)
Action Surge: Hold Person (Auto-Crit)
Thunderous Smite 4d6
Booming Blade 2d8
Greatsword 4d6+4
Divine Smite 6d8
Average of 68 damage
Menacing Attack does cause the frightened status but doesn't force movement. Using it as a quasi-disengage is interesting. Maybe consider the Mobile feat or a three level dip in rogue for Swashbuckler's Fancy Footwork or 2 for Cunning Action. Sneak attack doesn't work with Polearms, but carrying daggers to throw as ranged weapons could give a use for that and use strength as the attack stat. That's still a heavy investment. Mobile feat would probably be better, especially if you're eventually thinking of going fighter to at least 8 to ensure an extra ASI (Six gets you the extra one, but depending on what your other levels are, it just speeds up the ASI and doesn't give an extra).
I was talking about Thunderous Smite there but it is a good point, though I am aware that Menacing Attack is only a quasi-disengage, the positive is that is stacks with Thunderous Smite rather than conflicts. Therefore, I could use both to reduce my own vulnerability and increase the chance of enemy movement and opportunity attacks.
If I impose the Frightened and I have knocked the creature back and prone, I can use my movement and Action Surge to follow up with another attack at advantage. If they don’t run from me in their turn, and take significant damage from my Opportunity Attack, their attacks will still be at disadvantage anyway.
But if I have only used Menacing Attack by itself or only that was successful - I do have the option of walking away and their Opportunity Attack will be at disadvantage (they also will not be able to follow me) which can be useful if my health is low.
I also have Action Surge, I can simply Shove a creature with that (or use Command: Flee).
Edit: I could go Pushing Attack to essentially give disadvantage on the save against being pushed... But if both do succeed then the target would be prone and pushed 25ft away, which is pretty cool (Pushing Attack has a max of 15ft, but Thunderous Smite doesn’t).
I’d imagine it would be quite cinematic to literally send someone flying like that, and have tactical applications as well... at lv11 (Monk 1 / Cleric 6 / Fighter 4) I’d get an additional 10ft knock-back, from the Zeal Domain (3rd party) ability Resounding Strike (same as Tempest Domain, but a knock-back with Thunder damage instead).
Thunderous Smite (10ft & prone), Booming Blade, Pushing Attack (15ft), Resounding Strike (10ft no save). Then a 30ft Move. Finally, Action Surge, Thunderwave (10ft) and Resounding Strike (10ft). I’d imagine I could do a lot with a 55ft knock-back.
https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/768500726955806720?s=20
As per Jeremy Crawford, a shove can also be diagonally upward... so a 35ft knockback diagonally upward would add 3d6 bludgeoning damage?
I think yours is a pretty generous interpretation of JC's tweet :) I read his words as saying you can push diagonally away as long as it is not upward.
As an aside, I had to spend some time working on your build to make it work. It's pretty impressive that you can pull off so much at level 7. You put a lot of eggs into the "I'm going to build up and then have one kick ass round!" basket, but if you roll well and the enemy does not, then yeah, you are going to produce some fireworks.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Yeah to be honest, I’m aware it is, but linguistically as a response to a question about height specifying that the problem is not rules, but that you are not underneath the enemy then saying that diagonals are fine... I think there is credit (not that I’d use that much, because just adding free damage would be too strong... and also I suppose you should only add half the height as the enemy still needs to come back down.
Thanks! (I think), here is a link: https://ddb.ac/characters/28153263/UyEje1
Yeah it is fully possible to blow everything in one round, but that would be unadvisable... also since I have a familiar I can use that for advantage to help mitigate some of the risk.
Yeah , I think you are misunderstanding what is meant by diagonal in this case. Instead of being pushed straight back, you could shove it to the left or right diagonally away from you. Perhaps into a burning brazier or off a tower, for example. I'm pretty sure no one means launching your enemy up in the air to cause falling damage.