I get using it if you find a sword or something and want to see if it is magical and what it does...But does this work on ALL magical objects? What about a magical door you placed in a dungeon as an obstacle/puzzle? Do they just get the answer without having to try and figure anything out?
It does work on all objects, but that doesn't mean there's nothing to figure out. Just because you know how to operate something doesn't mean that you have the materials or ability. Think of a Rubik's cube. Just because you know how to turn the sides doesn't mean that you can solve it. Or just because you know how to operate a lock, doesn't mean you have the key.
I have such a situation where someone casting identify can learn all 3 functions of a powerful item. However, they already have the information on all 3, but it's been divided among them.
There's a catch if they do cast identify, though. They'll be doomed... because knowledge can be dangerous. Unfortunately I can't explain how here because one of the players might see it, but use your imagination how knowing everything about an item might be a hazard.
Here's an idea: "This sword is incomplete from a battle with a demon an age ago. It is said that when the two are rejoined, the sword will regain it's true power..." Get my drift?
*Don't just jump that on a player without advance warning that something like that can happen though. It just puts identify on the same level as other divinations; it isn't 100% reliable.
I have such a situation where someone casting identify can learn all 3 functions of a powerful item. However, they already have the information on all 3, but it's been divided among them.
There's a catch if they do cast identify, though. They'll be doomed... because knowledge can be dangerous. Unfortunately I can't explain how here because one of the players might see it, but use your imagination how knowing everything about an item might be a hazard.
Here's an idea: "This sword is incomplete from a battle with a demon an age ago. It is said that when the two are rejoined, the sword will regain it's true power..." Get my drift?
*Don't just jump that on a player without advance warning that something like that can happen though. It just puts identify on the same level as other divinations; it isn't 100% reliable.
Just because the player/character may not want to know the information doesn't mean the spell is unreliable. Identify does exactly what it says 100% of the time.
What part of the text of Identify makes you think it doesn't reveal if an item is cursed? That's one of the primary benefits of the spell.
Cursed items have their own rules since they also mess with attunement.
Cursed Items
Some magic items bear curses that bedevil their users, sometimes long after a user has stopped using an item. A magic item’s description specifies whether the item is cursed. Most methods of identifying items, including the identify spell, fail to reveal such a curse, although lore might hint at it. A curse should be a surprise to the item’s user when the curse’s effects are revealed.
Attunement to a cursed item can’t be ended voluntarily unless the curse is broken first, such as with the remove curse spell.
EDIT: I'd also add that there's enough wiggle room in the wording for the spell to say it doesn't necessarily reveal passwords and command words. Telling you that such-and-such ring lets you cast a spell when the command word is spoken doesn't imply you get the command word too. Needless to say I think both players and DMs should put some thought into how they want Identify to fit into the gameplay and setting.
So I’ll try to give an example of why this spell is upsetting me, hopefully none of my players read this. If you are, look away now. The example I’m going to give is not the reason I made this post but it should hopefully make my point.
I’m going to have my players, at some point in the current adventure, come across a large gem that is pulsing an orange glow. It will actually be a dragon egg belonging to a new/undiscovered type of dragon (Gem Dragons - sapphire, jade, ruby, etc. that I’m going to homebrew with only slight differences to normal dragons, neutral alignments, etc..). It will appear to be just a regular ol “gem” that they can get a daily boon from, and I have no problem offering that info as part of the identify spell and how to use it, and that’s what I’ll do in this particular case. But if I Abided exactly by what the spell does I’d have to tell them it’s actually a dragon egg and ruin the surprise of them finding out naturally when either it hatches, or people/dragons start coming after it, they’d have nothing to speculate about as they carry this mystery item around the world that they’ll have no idea will eventually be world-changing, no mystery no wonder...It’s going to start a story arc where chromatic and metallic dragons start fighting over which side it belongs to, blah blah...
the actual item that spurred this post is a little more difficult to explain in regards to our current adventure but hopefully I made a decent point. And also it’s not like I’d be withholding information they NEED.
and I have a simple idea for a magical door, just cast ANY spell on it and it opens, funny enough casting identify on it would actually open the door. But once again, hopefully made my point...woo, good job you figured it out without having to do anything at all, or roll a single die, or even use a spell slot cuz ritual....yaaaaaaay.....
I despise the command word crap. Identify should obviously give you the command word, it's core to the concept. When you use an item you should be able to tell fairly quickly what it does, and as Identify does not tell about curses, what else is it supposed to do except give you the command words? Command words should not be treated as some big secret, everyone hears them when you use the item.
But back to the original question. It's not hard to defeat identify, it just takes a curse. So it is totally reasonable for a large, immobile object that clearly is high level magic designed to act as some kind of lock should easily be immune to Identify.
But hand held items that are not Very Rare or greater in power? No reason for a crafter to make it defeat Identify. It takes work to add on extra magic effects and the crafter is not going to do that unless it is worth it.
I despise the command word crap. Identify should obviously give you the command word, it's core to the concept. When you use an item you should be able to tell fairly quickly what it does, and as Identify does not tell about curses, what else is it supposed to do except give you the command words? Command words should not be treated as some big secret, everyone hears them when you use the item.
To be fair most magic items are found, not looted off of enemies.
I'm not saying the DM should force the players to work their ass off for every single magic item they find but I can also see why it would be nice if occasionally a 1st level ritual spell couldn't give you every bit of info you need to use a powerful item or deactivate an ad-hoc magic trap. No spell is infallible - even Dispel Magic has exceptions (e.g. Wall of Force). And won't someone please think of the poor Legend Lore spell?
In practice the DM will probably want to make an exception here and there and I'm just pointing out that there's a bit of wiggle room built into the spell for them to do that.
Yeah, I have no issue using it for your run of the mill magic items., I encourage it. But when it’s something involving the narrative or bigger picture I really don’t want to give that information up for free.
I guess my point is that I don’t see anything in the description of identify that says you have to say it’s a dragon egg, only what the boon is and how it works. Similarly I’d also say that detect magic wouldn’t identify a regular dragon egg as magical. If anything the second paragraph of identify is more appropriate: "If you instead touch a creature throughout the casting, you learn what spells, if any, are currently affecting it."
This is true, and the example I used isn’t an issue in itself, just an example of the bigger underlying problem I have with the spell in general. But the issue that prompted my initial post is an object that is holding a curse on the land at bay, that I guess I can explain away as the actual item diverting the curse is cursed itself? I dunno
If the egg passively holds a country-wide curse at bay, you don't really need to give that information away. Identify should tell the players what they can do with the egg.
"Can I use it? I'll cast a spell that tells me how to use it."
"Okay, you know how to use it, but there's no ammunition/the gun is jammed and your character doesn't know how to make ammo/fix it. Otherwise it's in good condition."
Case with dragon eggs? "Possessing this gem grants an unforeseeable boon at unforeseeable time once per day." Or describe it as a permanent effect: "This gem gradually manifests boons simply by possessing it." If they ask how to use it, repeat yourself. "Possess it."
This is a conversation that needs to happen between DM and players. Some players take the identify spell b/c they dont like surprises. If thats the case, dont put items that cant be identified in your campaign. Some players take it for the convince. If thats the case, feel free to decide as the DM that some items dont give full info when identify is cast. Just make sure that the table is OK with this by having a short conversation about this out of game.
The situation in which your players are trying to analyze a magic door, I don't even think Identify directly applies. There's a subtle difference between a magic item and an item that is magical. This is not a Door of Jamming found in X book on pg YZ and here are the stats.
Rather, I would say the situation calls more for Detect Magic, where players can ascertain the school of magic the door is imbued with that might hint at its function, but doesn't give them the whole picture.
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I get using it if you find a sword or something and want to see if it is magical and what it does...But does this work on ALL magical objects? What about a magical door you placed in a dungeon as an obstacle/puzzle? Do they just get the answer without having to try and figure anything out?
It does work on all objects, but that doesn't mean there's nothing to figure out. Just because you know how to operate something doesn't mean that you have the materials or ability. Think of a Rubik's cube. Just because you know how to turn the sides doesn't mean that you can solve it. Or just because you know how to operate a lock, doesn't mean you have the key.
Hmmmm, I don’t like it, lol.
thanks for the response though.
I have such a situation where someone casting identify can learn all 3 functions of a powerful item. However, they already have the information on all 3, but it's been divided among them.
There's a catch if they do cast identify, though. They'll be doomed... because knowledge can be dangerous. Unfortunately I can't explain how here because one of the players might see it, but use your imagination how knowing everything about an item might be a hazard.
Here's an idea: "This sword is incomplete from a battle with a demon an age ago. It is said that when the two are rejoined, the sword will regain it's true power..." Get my drift?
*Don't just jump that on a player without advance warning that something like that can happen though. It just puts identify on the same level as other divinations; it isn't 100% reliable.
Remember that Identify may not reveal a curse if the item in question is cursed.
Its essentially magical Google...
Just because the player/character may not want to know the information doesn't mean the spell is unreliable. Identify does exactly what it says 100% of the time.
What part of the text of Identify makes you think it doesn't reveal if an item is cursed? That's one of the primary benefits of the spell.
True, I should have said desirable.
Cursed items have their own rules since they also mess with attunement.
EDIT: I'd also add that there's enough wiggle room in the wording for the spell to say it doesn't necessarily reveal passwords and command words. Telling you that such-and-such ring lets you cast a spell when the command word is spoken doesn't imply you get the command word too. Needless to say I think both players and DMs should put some thought into how they want Identify to fit into the gameplay and setting.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
So I’ll try to give an example of why this spell is upsetting me, hopefully none of my players read this. If you are, look away now. The example I’m going to give is not the reason I made this post but it should hopefully make my point.
I’m going to have my players, at some point in the current adventure, come across a large gem that is pulsing an orange glow. It will actually be a dragon egg belonging to a new/undiscovered type of dragon (Gem Dragons - sapphire, jade, ruby, etc. that I’m going to homebrew with only slight differences to normal dragons, neutral alignments, etc..). It will appear to be just a regular ol “gem” that they can get a daily boon from, and I have no problem offering that info as part of the identify spell and how to use it, and that’s what I’ll do in this particular case. But if I Abided exactly by what the spell does I’d have to tell them it’s actually a dragon egg and ruin the surprise of them finding out naturally when either it hatches, or people/dragons start coming after it, they’d have nothing to speculate about as they carry this mystery item around the world that they’ll have no idea will eventually be world-changing, no mystery no wonder...It’s going to start a story arc where chromatic and metallic dragons start fighting over which side it belongs to, blah blah...
the actual item that spurred this post is a little more difficult to explain in regards to our current adventure but hopefully I made a decent point. And also it’s not like I’d be withholding information they NEED.
and I have a simple idea for a magical door, just cast ANY spell on it and it opens, funny enough casting identify on it would actually open the door. But once again, hopefully made my point...woo, good job you figured it out without having to do anything at all, or roll a single die, or even use a spell slot cuz ritual....yaaaaaaay.....
I despise the command word crap. Identify should obviously give you the command word, it's core to the concept. When you use an item you should be able to tell fairly quickly what it does, and as Identify does not tell about curses, what else is it supposed to do except give you the command words? Command words should not be treated as some big secret, everyone hears them when you use the item.
But back to the original question. It's not hard to defeat identify, it just takes a curse. So it is totally reasonable for a large, immobile object that clearly is high level magic designed to act as some kind of lock should easily be immune to Identify.
But hand held items that are not Very Rare or greater in power? No reason for a crafter to make it defeat Identify. It takes work to add on extra magic effects and the crafter is not going to do that unless it is worth it.
To be fair most magic items are found, not looted off of enemies.
I'm not saying the DM should force the players to work their ass off for every single magic item they find but I can also see why it would be nice if occasionally a 1st level ritual spell couldn't give you every bit of info you need to use a powerful item or deactivate an ad-hoc magic trap. No spell is infallible - even Dispel Magic has exceptions (e.g. Wall of Force). And won't someone please think of the poor Legend Lore spell?
In practice the DM will probably want to make an exception here and there and I'm just pointing out that there's a bit of wiggle room built into the spell for them to do that.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
Arguably identify doesn’t necessarily identify what the item is/is made of, only it’s magical properties and how to use them.
Yeah, I have no issue using it for your run of the mill magic items., I encourage it. But when it’s something involving the narrative or bigger picture I really don’t want to give that information up for free.
I guess my point is that I don’t see anything in the description of identify that says you have to say it’s a dragon egg, only what the boon is and how it works. Similarly I’d also say that detect magic wouldn’t identify a regular dragon egg as magical. If anything the second paragraph of identify is more appropriate: "If you instead touch a creature throughout the casting, you learn what spells, if any, are currently affecting it."
This is true, and the example I used isn’t an issue in itself, just an example of the bigger underlying problem I have with the spell in general. But the issue that prompted my initial post is an object that is holding a curse on the land at bay, that I guess I can explain away as the actual item diverting the curse is cursed itself? I dunno
If the egg passively holds a country-wide curse at bay, you don't really need to give that information away. Identify should tell the players what they can do with the egg.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
"You find a gun..."
"Can I use it? I'll cast a spell that tells me how to use it."
"Okay, you know how to use it, but there's no ammunition/the gun is jammed and your character doesn't know how to make ammo/fix it. Otherwise it's in good condition."
Case with dragon eggs? "Possessing this gem grants an unforeseeable boon at unforeseeable time once per day." Or describe it as a permanent effect: "This gem gradually manifests boons simply by possessing it." If they ask how to use it, repeat yourself. "Possess it."
This is a conversation that needs to happen between DM and players. Some players take the identify spell b/c they dont like surprises. If thats the case, dont put items that cant be identified in your campaign. Some players take it for the convince. If thats the case, feel free to decide as the DM that some items dont give full info when identify is cast. Just make sure that the table is OK with this by having a short conversation about this out of game.
The situation in which your players are trying to analyze a magic door, I don't even think Identify directly applies. There's a subtle difference between a magic item and an item that is magical. This is not a Door of Jamming found in X book on pg YZ and here are the stats.
Rather, I would say the situation calls more for Detect Magic, where players can ascertain the school of magic the door is imbued with that might hint at its function, but doesn't give them the whole picture.