Once I achieve my dream of having a moose as my trusted mount, I'm going to start building as a monk in order to fight up close dual wielding two 'fighting sticks' a la Filipino martial arts. What's not clear after reading many threads is how, with these light finesse weapons in each hand I should go about things. Three seems to be limits on monks' two weapon fighting but not the rangers.... any tips there? Thanks, I'm pretty new.
Ranger and monk I would say is a bad combo for two weapon fighting. Both are classes that rely heavily on the bonus action for unarmed strikes, spellcasting (Hunter's Mark especially, as it takes a bonus action to transfer to a new target so you're not just burning a bonus action to cast), marking (some ranger subclasses have additional features that allow them to burn a bonus action to deal additional damage to a target), etc. Many of these are things you want to be doing nearly every turn, so that off-hand weapon is not going to really see a lot use, competing with all those other abilities.
I'm not sure what you mean about limits to monk 2WF, other than monk not needing a second weapon to BA attack...
Ranger/monk has its merits, but the second weapon is largely unnecessary for it. If you just want to build it for the theme of it, the character will not be underpowered or unviable.
Im mostly referring to the Monk more often using their bonus action for martial arts, and while I suppose early on in levels it's better to use an offhand weapon for the bonus action attack vs unarmed, Flury of Blows can only be used with unarmed attacks so they may find themselves more often skipping the offhand in favor of double unarmed attacks as the monk levels and ki points increase.
Flurry uses the unarmed attacks, but you can still make it even if you have two weapons in your hands. You have seen karate kicks, right?
Monks start off doing 1 attack with a monk weapon + a free unarmed attack via Bonus action, no ki point spent.
When they get the ki points they can change that to :
Flurry: Monks start off does 1 attack with a monk weapon + a 2 free unarmed attacks via Bonus action, 1 ki point spent.
This is done with full stat, even without a feat. As you go up in level, the damage goes up to better than light weapons, and eventually better than one handed weapons.
The main limit is the loss of magic weapons. That is your quarterstaff can be a Frostbrand but your unarmed do not get that. There are magic tattoos and a couple of other ways to get the equivalent
When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you're holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you're holding in the other hand. You don't add your ability modifier to the damage of the bonus attack, unless that modifier is negative.
It does not have to be a finesse weapon, both weapons just have to have the light property. This is the rule all classes have to follow when two-weapon fighting, to apply your strength or dexterity to the damage of the second weapon damage modifier from a stat would require the two-weapon fighting style.
The specific rule for monks and two-weapon fighting is martial arts:
At 1st level, your practice of martial arts gives you mastery of combat styles that use unarmed strikes and monk weapons, which are shortswords and any simple melee weapons that don’t have the two-handed or heavy property.
You gain the following benefits while you are unarmed or wielding only monk weapons and you aren’t wearing armor or wielding a shield:
You can use Dexterity instead of Strength for the attack and damage rolls of your unarmed strikes and monk weapons.
You can roll a d4 in place of the normal damage of your unarmed strike or monk weapon. This die changes as you gain monk levels, as shown in the Martial Arts column of the Monk table.
When you use the Attack action with an unarmed strike or a monk weapon on your turn, you can make one unarmed strike as a bonus action. For example, if you take the Attack action and attack with a quarterstaff, you can also make an unarmed strike as a bonus action, assuming you haven’t already taken a bonus action this turn.
(Specifically 3rd bullet point). The weapon you are wielding in your main hand needs to be a monk weapon or you need to be making an unarmed strike and your bonus action attack needs to be an unarmed strike. The bonus action attack for the monk has to be an unarmed strike but does not need to be a fist, it can be forehead strike, knee, elbow, kick, whatever you want to describe it as.
Now wielding two weapons, yes you can hold two weapons in your hands and attack with both weapons, but you will not be subject to the specific rules of martial arts if you attack with that weapon in your off-hand since you would not meet the requirements, you would fall under the general rule of two-weapon fighting and would not be able to apply your dexterity or strength modifier to the damage unless you had the two-weapon fighting style even if both weapons were considered monk weapons. Also, since an unarmed strike is not considered a light weapon you cannot make a bonus action attack with an unarmed strike unless you are a monk(this is overlooked by many people), even Dual-Wielder feat would not allow it.
Now how to go about it, you can wield both the weapons as long as they are monk or light weapons. You can attack with the weapon in your off-hand you would follow the general rules for two-weapon fighting but the monk weapon would increase in damage based on monk level (not total level). If you want to use flurry of blows the attacks would have to be unarmed strikes. If either weapon is a martial weapon then you could not use the scaling damage for any monk weapon or unarmed strike(martial arts specific rule) but would be able to do a flurry of blows with 2 unarmed strikes as a bonus action for 1Ki (specifies attack action only). You cannot use two-weapon fighting, martial arts, or a flurry of blows on the same turn since they use the same bonus action. The monk weapons and unarmed strikes would be considered magical once you reach 6th level as a monk.
I would just talk to your DM and see what their ruling will be, they may or may not have issues with how the rules are applied and ultimately comes down to their decision.
Thanks for all the responses, all. I really appreciate it. I guess I stand a bit amazed there isn't a rules method in place for what I'm imagining. After all, what if a monk wanted to be a dual wielding nunchaku wielder? That doesn't seem obscure. Check out these guys! https://youtu.be/z-Oz1aPolTA
This kind of light-damage, multi hit flurry stuff, hell it could even be an AC bonus. Thanks to all who have replied. We dream of things and hope to find the rules to make it fit!
Yes I know you can use an unarmed attack while still holding two weapons, my point is however, that a bonus action off-hand attack and a bonus action unarmed attack are mutually exclusive because you only have 1 bonus action. So, yes, you can hold your off-hand weapon and still use unarmed attacks, but then your off-hand weapon serves no purpose unless you forgo your unarmed strike in order to use it. You cannot both unarmed strike and off-hand attack in the same turn, so you'll always have to choose between them. And, because Flurry can take your 1-3 attacks and turn them into 2-4 per turn, I'm assuming they'll favor unarmed attacks vs off-hand attacks most of the time, so not only is your off-hand weapon doing very little most of the time, it also takes up your Fighting Style to use Two-Weapon Fighting when you could have taken something you'd actually use like Duelling or Defense that doesn't clash with martial arts.
You *can* use both, the abilities just don't play nice together.
Yes I know you can use an unarmed attack while still holding two weapons, my point is however, that a bonus action off-hand attack and a bonus action unarmed attack are mutually exclusive because you only have 1 bonus action. So, yes, you can hold your off-hand weapon and still use unarmed attacks, but then your off-hand weapon serves no purpose unless you forgo your unarmed strike in order to use it. You cannot both unarmed strike and off-hand attack in the same turn, so you'll always have to choose between them. And, because Flurry can take your 1-3 attacks and turn them into 2-4 per turn, I'm assuming they'll favor unarmed attacks vs off-hand attacks most of the time, so not only is your off-hand weapon doing very little most of the time, it also takes up your Fighting Style to use Two-Weapon Fighting when you could have taken something you'd actually use like Duelling or Defense that doesn't clash with martial arts.
You *can* use both, the abilities just don't play nice together.
You could still flurry even with a weapon in each hand, but it costs a Ki point. But anyone can make a bonus off hand attack regardless. Thus I would say that the bigger thing would be that there is no extra benefit for using a monk weapon as your off hand, since the fighting style only allows you to use your ability score on your off hand damage. However you get that anyway with monk weapons and it being the same modifier for both, it would not stack.
Defence does clash with martial arts since it requires you be wearing armor.
Ranged or dueling would stack though.....
Yes I agree with you, but my point is while you absolutely *can* Flurry while dual wielding, you cannot attack with the off-hand weapon since Flurry requires you first use your 1 bonus action to take the unarmed attack, spending a ki point to initiate Flurry to add a second unarmed attack.
So you can either do Main Attack + Bonus Action Off-Hand Attack, OR you can do Main Attack +Bonus Action Unarmed Strike, OR Main Attack +Bonus Action Attack Unarmed Strike+ Ki Point for Flurry, but you CANNOT do Main Action Attack +Bonus Action Off-Hand Attack + Flurry.
Again, I'm not arguing that Dual Weilding is incompatible with Martial Arts, just that you can't gain the benefits of both on the same turn, and therefore you'll always be having to choose between them and only getting the benefits of each about half the time.
So you can either do Main Attack + Bonus Action Off-Hand Attack, OR you can do Main Attack +Bonus Action Unarmed Strike, OR Main Attack +Bonus Action Attack Unarmed Strike+ Ki Point for Flurry, but you CANNOT do Main Action Attack +Bonus Action Off-Hand Attack + Flurry.
This isn't accurate (though your point is still valid). You don't bonus action unarmed strike, then spend a ki point to do flurry of blows for 1 more unarmed strike. You spend your bonus action and 1 ki to flurry of blows and make 2 unarmed strikes with the full BA.
You are making it more complicated than it needs to be.
So you can either do Main Attack + Bonus Action Off-Hand Attack, OR you can do Main Attack +Bonus Action Unarmed Strike, OR Main Attack +Bonus Action Attack Unarmed Strike+ Ki Point for Flurry, but you CANNOT do Main Action Attack +Bonus Action Off-Hand Attack + Flurry.
This isn't accurate (though your point is still valid). You don't bonus action unarmed strike, then spend a ki point to do flurry of blows for 1 more unarmed strike. You spend your bonus action and 1 ki to flurry of blows and make 2 unarmed strikes with the full BA.
You are making it more complicated than it needs to be.
Still can't flurry with a weapon though.
No, but you can flurry with your feet while holding two weapons. Yes, they do seem to be making it more complicated than it needs to be.
However, if they Kensei Monk, and are holding two light Kensei weapons, once they hit 5th level they can weapon attack, unarmed strike, (offhand attack OR bonus attack OR flurry of blows), and still get the defense bonus. Options, right.
So you can either do Main Attack + Bonus Action Off-Hand Attack, OR you can do Main Attack +Bonus Action Unarmed Strike, OR Main Attack +Bonus Action Attack Unarmed Strike+ Ki Point for Flurry, but you CANNOT do Main Action Attack +Bonus Action Off-Hand Attack + Flurry.
This isn't accurate (though your point is still valid). You don't bonus action unarmed strike, then spend a ki point to do flurry of blows for 1 more unarmed strike. You spend your bonus action and 1 ki to flurry of blows and make 2 unarmed strikes with the full BA.
You are making it more complicated than it needs to be.
Still can't flurry with a weapon though.
No, but you can flurry with your feet while holding two weapons.
I have literally never said that you cannot. All im saying is you can't both offhand attack and unharmed attack with the same bonus action so you have to choose, and all 3 times I've specified it, someone has replied "But you can Flurry with your feet."
Not trying to be snippy with anyone but at this point it's getting frustrating that no matter how clearly I state and re-state my point people's response is only tangentially related to what I actually said.
Once more, all I'm saying is that an off-hand attack costs a bonus action, an unarmed attack costs a bonus action, and you only have 1 bonus action on your turn. I'm saying nothing about the feasibility of holding two weapons and still being able to unarmed attack. You can use your feet.
So you can either do Main Attack + Bonus Action Off-Hand Attack, OR you can do Main Attack +Bonus Action Unarmed Strike, OR Main Attack +Bonus Action Attack Unarmed Strike+ Ki Point for Flurry, but you CANNOT do Main Action Attack +Bonus Action Off-Hand Attack + Flurry.
This isn't accurate (though your point is still valid). You don't bonus action unarmed strike, then spend a ki point to do flurry of blows for 1 more unarmed strike. You spend your bonus action and 1 ki to flurry of blows and make 2 unarmed strikes with the full BA.
You are making it more complicated than it needs to be.
Still can't flurry with a weapon though.
No, but you can flurry with your feet while holding two weapons.
I have literally never said that you cannot. All im saying is you can't both offhand attack and unharmed attack with the same bonus action so you have to choose, and all 3 times I've specified it, someone has replied "But you can Flurry with your feet."
Not trying to be snippy with anyone but at this point it's getting frustrating that no matter how clearly I state and re-state my point people's response is only tangentially related to what I actually said.
Once more, all I'm saying is that an off-hand attack costs a bonus action, an unarmed attack costs a bonus action, and you only have 1 bonus action on your turn. I'm saying nothing about the feasibility of holding two weapons and still being able to unarmed attack. You can use your feet.
I get that. But since only having 1 bonus action is a universal rule, pointing it out doesn’t really add anything to the discussion.
And if you had included the rest of my post, you would have been able to respond to the important part:
However, if they Kensei Monk, and are holding two light Kensei weapons, once they hit 5th level they can weapon attack, unarmed strike, (offhand attack OR bonus attack OR flurry of blows), and still get the defense bonus. Options, right.
So you can either do Main Attack + Bonus Action Off-Hand Attack, OR you can do Main Attack +Bonus Action Unarmed Strike, OR Main Attack +Bonus Action Attack Unarmed Strike+ Ki Point for Flurry, but you CANNOT do Main Action Attack +Bonus Action Off-Hand Attack + Flurry.
This isn't accurate (though your point is still valid). You don't bonus action unarmed strike, then spend a ki point to do flurry of blows for 1 more unarmed strike. You spend your bonus action and 1 ki to flurry of blows and make 2 unarmed strikes with the full BA.
You are making it more complicated than it needs to be.
Still can't flurry with a weapon though.
No, but you can flurry with your feet while holding two weapons.
I have literally never said that you cannot. All im saying is you can't both offhand attack and unharmed attack with the same bonus action so you have to choose, and all 3 times I've specified it, someone has replied "But you can Flurry with your feet."
Not trying to be snippy with anyone but at this point it's getting frustrating that no matter how clearly I state and re-state my point people's response is only tangentially related to what I actually said.
Once more, all I'm saying is that an off-hand attack costs a bonus action, an unarmed attack costs a bonus action, and you only have 1 bonus action on your turn. I'm saying nothing about the feasibility of holding two weapons and still being able to unarmed attack. You can use your feet.
I get that. But since only having 1 bonus action is a universal rule, pointing it out doesn’t really add anything to the discussion.
And if you had included the rest of my post, you would have been able to respond to the important part:
However, if they Kensei Monk, and are holding two light Kensei weapons, once they hit 5th level they can weapon attack, unarmed strike, (offhand attack OR bonus attack OR flurry of blows), and still get the defense bonus. Options, right.
Admittedly the bonus action thing is more relevant to my original point, I only continued to bring it up because it keeps being sidestepped by the feet thing. My original point is that martial arts and dual wielding tend to clash.
About your point with the Kensei, I suppose it depends on the spread, since this is a multiclass character. I'm assuming from the OP that their main class is ranger, they might not make it all the way to level 5 monk. Assuming they started the campaign around level 2 or 3, and they put the rest of their levels into monk going forwards, it won't be till around level 7 or 8 that the combo works, and that's around when a lot of campaigns tend to end.
Also with the Kensei combo, you still wouldn't be able to trigger flurry with your off-hand, and would need to replace it with an unarmed strike anyways, rendering it the same as if you were attacking with 1 weapon. But yes, it can work provided you're playing a higher level campaign, but you can't Attack/Unarmed Attack, Bonus Action Offhand, AND Flurry of Blows. You would have to Attack/Unarmed Attack, Bonus Action Unarmed Attack/Flurry of Blows, so that does limit the combo. Especially at higher Monk level where you have more ki points to spend and will probably use them to Flurry more often.
Admittedly the bonus action thing is more relevant to my original point, I only continued to bring it up because it keeps being sidestepped by the feet thing. My original point is that martial arts and dual wielding tend to clash.
About your point with the Kensei, I suppose it depends on the spread, since this is a multiclass character. I'm assuming from the OP that their main class is ranger, they might not make it all the way to level 5 monk. Assuming they started the campaign around level 2 or 3, and they put the rest of their levels into monk going forwards, it won't be till around level 7 or 8 that the combo works, and that's around when a lot of campaigns tend to end.
Also with the Kensei combo, you still wouldn't be able to trigger flurry with your off-hand, and would need to replace it with an unarmed strike anyways, rendering it the same as if you were attacking with 1 weapon. But yes, it can work provided you're playing a higher level campaign, but you can't Attack/Unarmed Attack, Bonus Action Offhand, AND Flurry of Blows. You would have to Attack/Unarmed Attack, Bonus Action Unarmed Attack/Flurry of Blows, so that does limit the combo. Especially at higher Monk level where you have more ki points to spend and will probably use them to Flurry more often.
To Flurry of blows only one of the initial attacks needs to be unarmed. If the Monk has Extra Attack and uses one to weapon attack and the other to unarmed strike then they would have to option to use either their Offhand Attack OR their bonus Unarmed Strike OR their Flurry of Blows as their bonus action.
Nobody is saying AND except for you. Everybody knows that a PC only gets 1 Bonus Action/turn. That’s 5e 101. I don’t know why you keep returning to that point like you’re informing people of something.
And often times, Ki is better spent for Stunning Strike than Flury of Blows because Flurry requires that one of the initial two attacks AND both flury attacks hit the same creature. The same goes for Offhand Attacks when TWF, that extra attack has to be directed against the initial target of one of the regular attacks. When not using Flury of Blows (or offhand attack) the two initial attacks and the bonus Unarmed Strike can all hit different targets and all three targets could be stunned.
It’s not about stacking everything together, it’s about having options.
Admittedly the bonus action thing is more relevant to my original point, I only continued to bring it up because it keeps being sidestepped by the feet thing. My original point is that martial arts and dual wielding tend to clash.
About your point with the Kensei, I suppose it depends on the spread, since this is a multiclass character. I'm assuming from the OP that their main class is ranger, they might not make it all the way to level 5 monk. Assuming they started the campaign around level 2 or 3, and they put the rest of their levels into monk going forwards, it won't be till around level 7 or 8 that the combo works, and that's around when a lot of campaigns tend to end.
Also with the Kensei combo, you still wouldn't be able to trigger flurry with your off-hand, and would need to replace it with an unarmed strike anyways, rendering it the same as if you were attacking with 1 weapon. But yes, it can work provided you're playing a higher level campaign, but you can't Attack/Unarmed Attack, Bonus Action Offhand, AND Flurry of Blows. You would have to Attack/Unarmed Attack, Bonus Action Unarmed Attack/Flurry of Blows, so that does limit the combo. Especially at higher Monk level where you have more ki points to spend and will probably use them to Flurry more often.
To Flurry of blows only one of the initial attacks needs to be unarmed. If the Monk has Extra Attack and uses one to weapon attack and the other to unarmed strike then they would have to option to use either their Offhand Attack OR their bonus Unarmed Strike OR their Flurry of Blows as their bonus action.
Nobody is saying AND except for you. Everybody knows that a PC only gets 1 Bonus Action/turn. That’s 5e 101. I don’t know why you keep returning to that point like you’re informing people of something.
And often times, Ki is better spent for Stunning Strike than Flury of Blows because Flurry requires that one of the initial two attacks AND both flury attacks hit the same creature. The same goes for Offhand Attacks when TWF, that extra attack has to be directed against the initial target of one of the regular attacks. When not using Flury of Blows (or offhand attack) the two initial attacks and the bonus Unarmed Strike can all hit different targets and all three targets could be stunned.
It’s not about stacking everything together, it’s about having options.
Ok, I can see all of that working with dual wielding still bringing something to the table, it just seemed to me that rather than giving a choice it was more halving your choice, but I can see it the way you say.
The people responding about being able to use feet seemed to be implying "and" which is why I specified.
So there's no system in place to fight with 2 monk weapons, even if I'm playing Bruce Lee with two nunchucks. I'll have to work w my DM and come up with something and let you know what we rule.
There is, it’s the same system for fighting with any two weapons:
Two-Weapon Fighting
When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you're holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you're holding in the other hand. You don't add your ability modifier to the damage of the bonus attack, unless that modifier is negative.
If either weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon, instead of making a melee attack with it.
And according to the book, Nunchucks follow the stats for a club. Maybe a club with light and finesse if your DM is feeling generous.
There is, it’s the same system for fighting with any two weapons:
Two-Weapon Fighting
When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you're holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you're holding in the other hand. You don't add your ability modifier to the damage of the bonus attack, unless that modifier is negative.
If either weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon, instead of making a melee attack with it.
And according to the book, Nunchucks follow the stats for a club. Maybe a club with light and finesse if your DM is feeling generous.
You also said "The same goes for Offhand Attacks when TWF, that extra attack has to be directed against the initial target of one of the regular attacks."
I'm curious where that comes from? The rule you cited for two weapon fighting indicates that after taking the attack action you have the option to use a bonus action to make a two weapon fighting attack. The rules for bonus actions indicate that if you have one available you can take it at any time during the turn. The rules under attacks indicate that you can move between attacks. So I don't see any constraint on two weapon fighting requiring it to be against a target you have already attacked. The same goes for the basic monk unarmed strike bonus action "When you usc the Attack action with an unarmed strike or a monk weapon on your turn, you can make one unarmed strike as a bonus action."
Timing of the bonus action is not specified.
However, you are correct about flurry of blows since it specifically states:
"Immediately after you take the Attack action on your turn, you can spend 1 ki point to make two unarmed strikes as a bonus action."
Only flurry of blows specifies "immediately" .. this could be interpreted as spending the ki to obtain the bonus action or it could apply to both spending the ki and making the attacks as a bonus action. It could be interpreted either way though I usually interpret it as spending the ki to take the two attacks immediately (however, immediately spending the ki to obtain two attacks as a bonus action which could be taken at any subsequent point in the turn would be more consistent with the rest of the bonus action attack rules which can be taken at any time)
There is, it’s the same system for fighting with any two weapons:
Two-Weapon Fighting
When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you're holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you're holding in the other hand. You don't add your ability modifier to the damage of the bonus attack, unless that modifier is negative.
If either weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon, instead of making a melee attack with it.
And according to the book, Nunchucks follow the stats for a club. Maybe a club with light and finesse if your DM is feeling generous.
You also said "The same goes for Offhand Attacks when TWF, that extra attack has to be directed against the initial target of one of the regular attacks."
I'm curious where that comes from? The rule you cited for two weapon fighting indicates that after taking the attack action you have the option to use a bonus action to make a two weapon fighting attack. The rules for bonus actions indicate that if you have one available you can take it at any time during the turn. The rules under attacks indicate that you can move between attacks. So I don't see any constraint on two weapon fighting requiring it to be against a target you have already attacked. The same goes for the basic monk unarmed strike bonus action "When you usc the Attack action with an unarmed strike or a monk weapon on your turn, you can make one unarmed strike as a bonus action."
Timing of the bonus action is not specified.
However, you are correct about flurry of blows since it specifically states:
"Immediately after you take the Attack action on your turn, you can spend 1 ki point to make two unarmed strikes as a bonus action."
Only flurry of blows specifies "immediately" .. this could be interpreted as spending the ki to obtain the bonus action or it could apply to both spending the ki and making the attacks as a bonus action. It could be interpreted either way though I usually interpret it as spending the ki to take the two attacks immediately (however, immediately spending the ki to obtain two attacks as a bonus action which could be taken at any subsequent point in the turn would be more consistent with the rest of the bonus action attack rules which can be taken at any time)
Ah. I must have misremembered. I’m only human after all.
Once I achieve my dream of having a moose as my trusted mount, I'm going to start building as a monk in order to fight up close dual wielding two 'fighting sticks' a la Filipino martial arts. What's not clear after reading many threads is how, with these light finesse weapons in each hand I should go about things. Three seems to be limits on monks' two weapon fighting but not the rangers.... any tips there? Thanks, I'm pretty new.
Ranger and monk I would say is a bad combo for two weapon fighting. Both are classes that rely heavily on the bonus action for unarmed strikes, spellcasting (Hunter's Mark especially, as it takes a bonus action to transfer to a new target so you're not just burning a bonus action to cast), marking (some ranger subclasses have additional features that allow them to burn a bonus action to deal additional damage to a target), etc. Many of these are things you want to be doing nearly every turn, so that off-hand weapon is not going to really see a lot use, competing with all those other abilities.
I'm not sure what you mean about limits to monk 2WF, other than monk not needing a second weapon to BA attack...
Ranger/monk has its merits, but the second weapon is largely unnecessary for it. If you just want to build it for the theme of it, the character will not be underpowered or unviable.
Im mostly referring to the Monk more often using their bonus action for martial arts, and while I suppose early on in levels it's better to use an offhand weapon for the bonus action attack vs unarmed, Flury of Blows can only be used with unarmed attacks so they may find themselves more often skipping the offhand in favor of double unarmed attacks as the monk levels and ki points increase.
It's just a very bonus- action- heavy combo.
Flurry uses the unarmed attacks, but you can still make it even if you have two weapons in your hands. You have seen karate kicks, right?
Monks start off doing 1 attack with a monk weapon + a free unarmed attack via Bonus action, no ki point spent.
When they get the ki points they can change that to :
Flurry: Monks start off does 1 attack with a monk weapon + a 2 free unarmed attacks via Bonus action, 1 ki point spent.
This is done with full stat, even without a feat. As you go up in level, the damage goes up to better than light weapons, and eventually better than one handed weapons.
The main limit is the loss of magic weapons. That is your quarterstaff can be a Frostbrand but your unarmed do not get that. There are magic tattoos and a couple of other ways to get the equivalent
The general rule for two-weapon fighting is:
It does not have to be a finesse weapon, both weapons just have to have the light property. This is the rule all classes have to follow when two-weapon fighting, to apply your strength or dexterity to the damage of the second weapon damage modifier from a stat would require the two-weapon fighting style.
The specific rule for monks and two-weapon fighting is martial arts:
At 1st level, your practice of martial arts gives you mastery of combat styles that use unarmed strikes and monk weapons, which are shortswords and any simple melee weapons that don’t have the two-handed or heavy property.
You gain the following benefits while you are unarmed or wielding only monk weapons and you aren’t wearing armor or wielding a shield:
(Specifically 3rd bullet point). The weapon you are wielding in your main hand needs to be a monk weapon or you need to be making an unarmed strike and your bonus action attack needs to be an unarmed strike. The bonus action attack for the monk has to be an unarmed strike but does not need to be a fist, it can be forehead strike, knee, elbow, kick, whatever you want to describe it as.
Now wielding two weapons, yes you can hold two weapons in your hands and attack with both weapons, but you will not be subject to the specific rules of martial arts if you attack with that weapon in your off-hand since you would not meet the requirements, you would fall under the general rule of two-weapon fighting and would not be able to apply your dexterity or strength modifier to the damage unless you had the two-weapon fighting style even if both weapons were considered monk weapons. Also, since an unarmed strike is not considered a light weapon you cannot make a bonus action attack with an unarmed strike unless you are a monk(this is overlooked by many people), even Dual-Wielder feat would not allow it.
Now how to go about it, you can wield both the weapons as long as they are monk or light weapons. You can attack with the weapon in your off-hand you would follow the general rules for two-weapon fighting but the monk weapon would increase in damage based on monk level (not total level). If you want to use flurry of blows the attacks would have to be unarmed strikes. If either weapon is a martial weapon then you could not use the scaling damage for any monk weapon or unarmed strike(martial arts specific rule) but would be able to do a flurry of blows with 2 unarmed strikes as a bonus action for 1Ki (specifies attack action only). You cannot use two-weapon fighting, martial arts, or a flurry of blows on the same turn since they use the same bonus action. The monk weapons and unarmed strikes would be considered magical once you reach 6th level as a monk.
I would just talk to your DM and see what their ruling will be, they may or may not have issues with how the rules are applied and ultimately comes down to their decision.
Thanks for all the responses, all. I really appreciate it. I guess I stand a bit amazed there isn't a rules method in place for what I'm imagining. After all, what if a monk wanted to be a dual wielding nunchaku wielder? That doesn't seem obscure. Check out these guys! https://youtu.be/z-Oz1aPolTA
This kind of light-damage, multi hit flurry stuff, hell it could even be an AC bonus. Thanks to all who have replied. We dream of things and hope to find the rules to make it fit!
Yes I know you can use an unarmed attack while still holding two weapons, my point is however, that a bonus action off-hand attack and a bonus action unarmed attack are mutually exclusive because you only have 1 bonus action. So, yes, you can hold your off-hand weapon and still use unarmed attacks, but then your off-hand weapon serves no purpose unless you forgo your unarmed strike in order to use it. You cannot both unarmed strike and off-hand attack in the same turn, so you'll always have to choose between them. And, because Flurry can take your 1-3 attacks and turn them into 2-4 per turn, I'm assuming they'll favor unarmed attacks vs off-hand attacks most of the time, so not only is your off-hand weapon doing very little most of the time, it also takes up your Fighting Style to use Two-Weapon Fighting when you could have taken something you'd actually use like Duelling or Defense that doesn't clash with martial arts.
You *can* use both, the abilities just don't play nice together.
Yes I agree with you, but my point is while you absolutely *can* Flurry while dual wielding, you cannot attack with the off-hand weapon since Flurry requires you first use your 1 bonus action to take the unarmed attack, spending a ki point to initiate Flurry to add a second unarmed attack.
So you can either do Main Attack + Bonus Action Off-Hand Attack, OR you can do Main Attack +Bonus Action Unarmed Strike, OR Main Attack +Bonus Action Attack Unarmed Strike+ Ki Point for Flurry, but you CANNOT do Main Action Attack +Bonus Action Off-Hand Attack + Flurry.
Again, I'm not arguing that Dual Weilding is incompatible with Martial Arts, just that you can't gain the benefits of both on the same turn, and therefore you'll always be having to choose between them and only getting the benefits of each about half the time.
You guys are literally arguing the same thing...
Also,
This isn't accurate (though your point is still valid). You don't bonus action unarmed strike, then spend a ki point to do flurry of blows for 1 more unarmed strike. You spend your bonus action and 1 ki to flurry of blows and make 2 unarmed strikes with the full BA.
You are making it more complicated than it needs to be.
Still can't flurry with a weapon though.
No, but you can flurry with your feet while holding two weapons. Yes, they do seem to be making it more complicated than it needs to be.
However, if they Kensei Monk, and are holding two light Kensei weapons, once they hit 5th level they can weapon attack, unarmed strike, (offhand attack OR bonus attack OR flurry of blows), and still get the defense bonus. Options, right.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
I have literally never said that you cannot. All im saying is you can't both offhand attack and unharmed attack with the same bonus action so you have to choose, and all 3 times I've specified it, someone has replied "But you can Flurry with your feet."
Not trying to be snippy with anyone but at this point it's getting frustrating that no matter how clearly I state and re-state my point people's response is only tangentially related to what I actually said.
Once more, all I'm saying is that an off-hand attack costs a bonus action, an unarmed attack costs a bonus action, and you only have 1 bonus action on your turn. I'm saying nothing about the feasibility of holding two weapons and still being able to unarmed attack. You can use your feet.
I get that. But since only having 1 bonus action is a universal rule, pointing it out doesn’t really add anything to the discussion.
And if you had included the rest of my post, you would have been able to respond to the important part:
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
Admittedly the bonus action thing is more relevant to my original point, I only continued to bring it up because it keeps being sidestepped by the feet thing. My original point is that martial arts and dual wielding tend to clash.
About your point with the Kensei, I suppose it depends on the spread, since this is a multiclass character. I'm assuming from the OP that their main class is ranger, they might not make it all the way to level 5 monk. Assuming they started the campaign around level 2 or 3, and they put the rest of their levels into monk going forwards, it won't be till around level 7 or 8 that the combo works, and that's around when a lot of campaigns tend to end.
Also with the Kensei combo, you still wouldn't be able to trigger flurry with your off-hand, and would need to replace it with an unarmed strike anyways, rendering it the same as if you were attacking with 1 weapon. But yes, it can work provided you're playing a higher level campaign, but you can't Attack/Unarmed Attack, Bonus Action Offhand, AND Flurry of Blows. You would have to Attack/Unarmed Attack, Bonus Action Unarmed Attack/Flurry of Blows, so that does limit the combo. Especially at higher Monk level where you have more ki points to spend and will probably use them to Flurry more often.
To Flurry of blows only one of the initial attacks needs to be unarmed. If the Monk has Extra Attack and uses one to weapon attack and the other to unarmed strike then they would have to option to use either their Offhand Attack OR their bonus Unarmed Strike OR their Flurry of Blows as their bonus action.
Nobody is saying AND except for you. Everybody knows that a PC only gets 1 Bonus Action/turn. That’s 5e 101. I don’t know why you keep returning to that point like you’re informing people of something.
And often times, Ki is better spent for Stunning Strike than Flury of Blows because Flurry requires that one of the initial two attacks AND both flury attacks hit the same creature. The same goes for Offhand Attacks when TWF, that extra attack has to be directed against the initial target of one of the regular attacks. When not using Flury of Blows (or offhand attack) the two initial attacks and the bonus Unarmed Strike can all hit different targets and all three targets could be stunned.
It’s not about stacking everything together, it’s about having options.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
Ok, I can see all of that working with dual wielding still bringing something to the table, it just seemed to me that rather than giving a choice it was more halving your choice, but I can see it the way you say.
The people responding about being able to use feet seemed to be implying "and" which is why I specified.
So there's no system in place to fight with 2 monk weapons, even if I'm playing Bruce Lee with two nunchucks. I'll have to work w my DM and come up with something and let you know what we rule.
There is, it’s the same system for fighting with any two weapons:
And according to the book, Nunchucks follow the stats for a club. Maybe a club with light and finesse if your DM is feeling generous.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
You also said "The same goes for Offhand Attacks when TWF, that extra attack has to be directed against the initial target of one of the regular attacks."
I'm curious where that comes from? The rule you cited for two weapon fighting indicates that after taking the attack action you have the option to use a bonus action to make a two weapon fighting attack. The rules for bonus actions indicate that if you have one available you can take it at any time during the turn. The rules under attacks indicate that you can move between attacks. So I don't see any constraint on two weapon fighting requiring it to be against a target you have already attacked. The same goes for the basic monk unarmed strike bonus action "When you usc the Attack action with an unarmed strike or a monk weapon on your turn, you can make one unarmed strike as a bonus action."
Timing of the bonus action is not specified.
However, you are correct about flurry of blows since it specifically states:
"Immediately after you take the Attack action on your turn, you can spend 1 ki point to make two unarmed strikes as a bonus action."
Only flurry of blows specifies "immediately" .. this could be interpreted as spending the ki to obtain the bonus action or it could apply to both spending the ki and making the attacks as a bonus action. It could be interpreted either way though I usually interpret it as spending the ki to take the two attacks immediately (however, immediately spending the ki to obtain two attacks as a bonus action which could be taken at any subsequent point in the turn would be more consistent with the rest of the bonus action attack rules which can be taken at any time)
Ah. I must have misremembered. I’m only human after all.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting