I had some rules questions come up on the issue of hiding, so I decided to outline all the conditions where hiding might be applicable in an effort to be more transparent with my players. In addition, one of my players revealed a novel way to detect a hidden creature using movement, which I had never really considered before (i.e. walking around until you bump into something.)
I posted this elsewhere but I didn't get too many responses, and I'm really looking for feedback. I was hoping the rest of you might take a look and let me know what you think?
I would appreciate any feedback you may have, including features that allow hiding that I may have overlooked, or anything else, really.
(The table formatting on the site isn't that great, so I am just posting the google docs link for now.)
I would suggest NOT giving them that. I looked at it, and would disagree with some things. For example, invisibility. Normally can't just sense them using hearing. If a creature is invisible, either the creature must do something to give themselves away (opening a door, speaking) or an observer needs a special way to "see" them (tremorsense).
The rules are specific enough that trying to define every way to notice a hidden creature WILL work against you. Let the player tell you how they try to notice something, then determine if it works or not. Sometimes walking around randomly might work (normally not, an invisible creature who doesn't want to be found can just sidestep that even in a 5 ft square if you're going on a grid), but don't set in stone what works and what doesn't. Just give the rules and some EXAMPLES if they need help understanding.
The main hurdle to get over for my group of new players, was getting them out of the mind frame of video game RPGs, where ‘hiding’ is essentially a combination of invisibility and memory wiping. Looking at you, Elder Scrolls.
Having a reference sheet like you’ve created might be more helpful for DMing than players, to help you make rulings. But for players, having hard and fast rules leaves little space for flexibility, and can lead to confusion or frustration.
Hiding isn’t a switch that players can flip. The conditions have to be right. While your cheat sheet goes some way to suggesting some of those conditions, there’s so much more to think about. Yes, full cover means you can hide - but it doesn’t mean the creatures suddenly forget you’re there. I’d need to assess what else is going on, and understand what my player wants to do, to see if they can make a hide check.
‘As the fighter is making a nuisance of herself, on my turn, I’d like to see if I can make it from behind this wall, to behind that pile of boxes without being seen.’
It would be better to assess each hiding scenario as it happens, taking into account everything that’s going on, and make a ruling accordingly.
‘I walk around until I bump into the invisible creature’ wouldn’t work in my game. Unless the creature was somehow immobile or massive, and the room was tiny. The creature would simply move out of the way.
I would suggest NOT giving them that. I looked at it, and would disagree with some things. For example, invisibility. Normally can't just sense them using hearing. If a creature is invisible, either the creature must do something to give themselves away (opening a door, speaking) or an observer needs a special way to "see" them (tremorsense).
The rules are specific enough that trying to define every way to notice a hidden creature WILL work against you. Let the player tell you how they try to notice something, then determine if it works or not. Sometimes walking around randomly might work (normally not, an invisible creature who doesn't want to be found can just sidestep that even in a 5 ft square if you're going on a grid), but don't set in stone what works and what doesn't. Just give the rules and some EXAMPLES if they need help understanding.
Have experience with that personally. :)
Per the PHB p. 177: "An invisible creature can always try to hide. Signs of its passage might still be noticed, and it does have to stay quiet."
So there are two things mentioned here. "Signs of its passage" could mean footprints, but it could also be smell or the sound of shuffling feet. Wisdom (Perception) represents a combination of all the senses. Some creatures are especially good at smelling things, for instance. Others are good at hearing. All of them use Wisdom (Perception).
The second segment mentions that an invisible creature still has "to stay quiet." So if they don't attempt to be stealthy, they are making just as much noise as they normally would. You just can't see them. Even if an invisible creature is trying to be stealthy, they can still be heard or smelled. It all depends on the rolls.
As for side-stepping, a creature can only move on its turn in combat. Outside of combat is another story.
Ironically, your advice regarding letting the players tell me when they can hide and making a call in the moment is what prompted the creation of this table. :)
The main hurdle to get over for my group of new players, was getting them out of the mind frame of video game RPGs, where ‘hiding’ is essentially a combination of invisibility and memory wiping. Looking at you, Elder Scrolls.
Having a reference sheet like you’ve created might be more helpful for DMing than players, to help you make rulings. But for players, having hard and fast rules leaves little space for flexibility, and can lead to confusion or frustration.
Hiding isn’t a switch that players can flip. The conditions have to be right. While your cheat sheet goes some way to suggesting some of those conditions, there’s so much more to think about. Yes, full cover means you can hide - but it doesn’t mean the creatures suddenly forget you’re there. I’d need to assess what else is going on, and understand what my player wants to do, to see if they can make a hide check.
‘As the fighter is making a nuisance of herself, on my turn, I’d like to see if I can make it from behind this wall, to behind that pile of boxes without being seen.’
It would be better to assess each hiding scenario as it happens, taking into account everything that’s going on, and make a ruling accordingly.
‘I walk around until I bump into the invisible creature’ wouldn’t work in my game. Unless the creature was somehow immobile or massive, and the room was tiny. The creature would simply move out of the way.
I agree that there is much more to think about. That's why the table is only about when a creature can hide and how they can be discovered. As for your scenario, the only thing this table would be used for is to see if any of the methods of hiding are available. Since cover is available, the answer is "yes, an attempt can be made."
I ran the "bump into an invisible creature" past a bunch of other DMs and they disagreed, and said it was smart of the player. Personally, I had never thought to do something like that, so I ruled at the table the same way you did. Unfortunately, in combat a creature can't move when it's not their turn. Furthermore, it's not just invisibility where this technique becomes valid but a whole slew of conditions, such as fog and darkness. Finally, the rules stating that a character can't move through an enemy's square solidified the player's case for me.
Actually, some creatures especially skilled in stealth could move when it's not their turn. Many Rogue types can hide with a bonus action. If staying hidden is the main goal, they ready their action for movement. Condition, if movement is required to stay hidden, the reaction is used for that.
As far as just wandering around to find an invisible creature. Depending on the area to be covered, it could be feasible that a character moving at full speed with no stealth concerns could randomly pressure a creature limited to half movement into a giveaway mistake.
Stealth
While traveling at a slow pace, the characters can move stealthily. As long as they’re not in the open, they can try to surprise or sneak by other creatures they encounter. See the rules for hiding in the Using Ability Scores section.
The second segment mentions that an invisible creature still has "to stay quiet." So if they don't attempt to be stealthy, they are making just as much noise as they normally.
I'm not saying you're explicitly wrong with this part (emphasis mine) but there is a lot more nuance to the situation than this statement would indicate.
Actually, some creatures especially skilled in stealth could move when it's not their turn. Many Rogue types can hide with a bonus action. If staying hidden is the main goal, they ready their action for movement. Condition, if movement is required to stay hidden, the reaction is used for that.
As far as just wandering around to find an invisible creature. Depending on the area to be covered, it could be feasible that a character moving at full speed with no stealth concerns could randomly pressure a creature limited to half movement into a giveaway mistake.
Stealth
While traveling at a slow pace, the characters can move stealthily. As long as they’re not in the open, they can try to surprise or sneak by other creatures they encounter. See the rules for hiding in the Using Ability Scores section.
Right, so readying an action to do something that you normally wouldn't be able to do is an example of specific beating general. It was intended to be inferred that a creature can not normally move outside of their turn. Furthermore, once you move you technically come out of hiding, your position is known. Exceptions to this rule can be made by the DM. (Source) Regardless, none of this changes what is written in the table. :)
The second segment mentions that an invisible creature still has "to stay quiet." So if they don't attempt to be stealthy, they are making just as much noise as they normally.
I'm not saying you're explicitly wrong with this part (emphasis mine) but there is a lot more nuance to the situation than this statement would indicate.
I'm not sure what nuance would really apply here. A creature who is not trying to be stealthy would not fall under either the hiding or stealth rules.
I am specifically referring to the nuance involved in handling a creature that is invisible and unhidden. I'm all for having a conversation about the subtleties of that situation, but that isn't what you asked for in your OP. You did ask for feedback though, so I will say that I found your list to be a good reference and very comprehensive, primarily for a DM (my subjective opinion). I would not give this out as a reference to the players at my table, but your situation is completely different than mine, so play it as you see fit.
I think this has missed the difference between "unseen" and "hidden."
Unseen - I can't see you but I know where you are. Perhaps you are invisible but I know where you are by your footprints or by the sound of your gear . Perhaps you are concealed from me but I still know where you are, because I saw you duck behind that tree.
Hidden - I don't know where you are, or even that you are there at all. Perhaps you are invisible and have taken care to leave no tracks and make no sound (probably by making a DEX (Stealth) check). Perhaps you are camouflaged to be something else (an INT (Stealth) check?). Maybe you are invisible and flying and incorporeal? Maybe you ducked behind a tree and teleported to another tree when I couldn't see you. Maybe you just teleported away and are now several miles from me.
Being "unseen" is certainly important, but the term itself is just one aspect of being hidden, the other half being "unheard." (Source, 36:25) If your contested Dexterity (Stealth) roll is successful, you are both unseen and unheard, regardless of whether a player knows where you are. The player might know the creature is hiding in a specific place, but can't target them because they are unseen and unheard.
I believe I covered all of the examples you listed in your "hidden" description, so that's good.
I found your list to be a good reference and very comprehensive, primarily for a DM (my subjective opinion). I would not give this out as a reference to the players at my table, but your situation is completely different than mine, so play it as you see fit.
Agreed. I felt the same when I saw it. I wouldn't give it to players, who can just refer to their own PHB to understand how hiding works. But it's useful to have behind the DM screen to quickly check how I might want to handle a specific hide check for my players.
I wouldn't give it to players, because I'd rather have them approach encounters with what their characters might be thinking about hiding enemies, rather than going through a checklist of potential hiding criteria and rules to check off.
I'd rather my players let me know that they're suspicious of someone hiding in the thicket of trees, and then let me handle the rules around hiding - that way I can handle all the nuances and additional things that might be going on that would affect any checks I want them to make.
As I mentioned before, having a list of rules to reference can leave players feeling constrained and out-of-character. If your players are querying certain rules around hiding, that's fine, but a good way to handle it is to ask 'What's your character thinking?' If they know there's creatures hiding nearby, then you handle the relevant checks. If they're just feeling a bit nervous that there might be creatures hiding nearby, then again - make a ruling based on everything that's going on, and leave your players to handle what their characters are thinking, feeling, and wanting to do.
Yeah, after sleeping on it I think you might be right. The issue that spurred this at my table was a matter of fairness and consistency, as the vibe I was getting was that I was playing a bit loose with the hiding rules. But perhaps it's best to be used not as a reference for players but something I can refer to behind the screen for my own consistency when adjudicating.
Actually, some creatures especially skilled in stealth could move when it's not their turn. Many Rogue types can hide with a bonus action. If staying hidden is the main goal, they ready their action for movement. Condition, if movement is required to stay hidden, the reaction is used for that.
This is actually a very good point, although I have to point out as well that you do not have to do a stealth check every round anyway. If you are already hidden, you do not need to be a rogue with a bonus action to simply stay hidden. You can always ready an action to move using your normal action.
The trick is that you have to move while not breaking concealement (which is easy if you are invisible but potentially much harder otherwise). And also, being a readied action, ou have to be specific about the trigger although I agree that the rule allow you to move "freely" You do not have to specify in advance where you would be going.
Still, let's say that you ready an action to move if the guard moves towards where you are hidden, as the guard starts his move, it will trigger after the move and you will be bumped into. And if you trigger to move when the guard starts to move, you will have to complete your move without knowing where the guard will actually go.
This is RAW and can actually be a bit stupid because this is why the game has turns, it handles "simultaneous" actions very poorly. I would probably play it in nicer way in my campaign (while still not making it too easy for the skulker either) but there you go...
Thanks for this post. I think it will really help me a lot. I didn't care for the official rules about rolling Stealth and letting it apply multiple rounds until you posted above. I had been forcing too many Stealth rolls to both NPCs and PCs, it was in response to too few being asked for(in my opinion) while I was a player. I think what I got out of the above information is that no new Stealth roll is required if the circumstances haven't significantly changed. If cover becomes sparse or you need to dash from cover to cover, or you are getting closer to an enemy, things like this might require a new check. In some cases, changing circumstances might even be in favor of the Stealther, like being allowed a new check with advantage due to a nearby commotion.
I would appreciate any feedback you may have, including features that allow hiding that I may have overlooked, or anything else, really.
Hi, In a sense, I really like your table, it is complete as far as I can see with a quick scan, and goes a good job of summarizing rules that can be fairly complex.
But I must say that, in 5E, I would not use it. Let me try to explain why. 3(.5)e and 4e tried to be exhaustive and complete exactly like your table is and as a result generated a very, very complex environment of rule lawyers, i.e. situations where the players were always arguing between themselves and with the DM about interpretations of rules. While I really liked 3(.5), I grew tired of it exactly for that reason, people did not think about a situation and how logical or cool it could be, they would mostly think about a way to use the rules to be proven right.
5e took a very different tack, which is "the DM is always right, and rules are therefore left purposefully a bit vague” to avoid this rule-lawyering effect. I would not make it that clear to the players. Simply describe what happens and let them figure out the best way to find hidden adversaries, based on the situation as you describe it. Perhaps there is water on the floor, or dust, and that can be used. Perhaps someone has a familiar who can track people by scent, perhaps there is wind or whatever. Do not railroad situations into given answers, it stifles inventiveness and removes surprise and flavor from your campaign. All in all, it generates boredom rather than renewal and creativity.
You can only have a look at the answers and the debates around your table to see how perverse it could be. Even if people are using the right rules (and actually a fair number of them are not, see other answers including mine), the mindset that is generated is for me destructive to roleplaying and trying to be inventive.
It looks to me like your players are trying to (and my apologies if it is not the case) force you to come out with rules so that they can actually start using them against the situations, and trying to solve them with these instead of using their brains and trying to get a feel for the situation. Instead of creating table and rules, use that brainpower to surprise them with new situations that force them to act in character and find roleplaying situations rather than technical ones…
Yes I think I'm going to keep the table but not have it guide every hiding decision. I'm certainly on the side of keeping it from players for the very reasons you describe. Stifling creativity is the last thing I want to do.
And in a way, the table was made as a sort of study, a bit of self signed homework if you will. In that sense, it was largely a success. I feel like I have an even deeper understanding of the rules and how to run hiding.
Since we are discussing the ins and outs of being seen both with and without being hidden, let me elaborate on what I said earlier about the nuance of invisibility in the absence of being hidden. It is generally accepted that people are aware of the presence of an invisible creature who is not hidden, but as to whether their exact location is known, one could make a case both ways.
The case for:
Invisible is not the same thing as invisible and hidden and we must be careful not to apply the benefits of the hidden condition when a creature is not hidden.
The invisible condition in PHB Appendix A explains, “The [invisible] creature's location can be detected by any noise it makes or any tracks it leaves.”
PHB p177 says, “Signs of [an invisible creature] might still be noticed, and it does have to stay quiet.” Trying to avoid giving away tell-tale non-visual indicators of your location is done by taking the hide action.
In discussing stealth, Jeremy Crawford says, “It’s also perfectly in keeping with the rules for a group to assume that unless a person hides, people generally know where invisible people are in combat because of their movements, their sword swings, they are seeing the effect in the environment either because their weapon is clipping through bushes or they bumped up against a table as they walked by and they see the drinks wobble.” (starts 29:38)
The advantages of the invisible condition are the effects of the condition itself. The biggest benefit of being invisible is that it provides you with the conditions to hide continuously instead of having to find cover all the time. And when you do attempt to hide, the stealth check is often made at advantage due to being invisible.
If a creature is required to take the search action to perceive an invisible creature who is not hidden, then that invisible creature may as well be considered hidden as well.
The case against:
The rules use verbiage that is intentionally noncommittal when describing invisible creatures. Nothing in the rules or in JC’s interview explicitly states that invisible and unhidden creatures passively give away their position—only that it can or might happen.
PHB p177 says, “Signs of [an invisible creature] might still be noticed, and it does have to stay quiet,” but staying quiet can often be done simply by not doing things that make noise.
In the same discussion on stealth referenced above, Jeremy Crawford explains, “In some cases, a DM will decide that even an invisible [but not hidden] person's location is unknown to combatants because of the environment or the character's attentiveness... The DM might decide that the wizard who cast invisibility on herself, the orcs may have lost track of where she is.” (starts 28:42)
The Unseen Attackers section of chapter 9 of the Basic rules states, “When you attack a target that you can't see, you have disadvantage on the attack roll. This is true whether you're guessing the target's location or you're targeting a creature you can hear but not see. If the target isn't in the location you targeted, you automatically miss,” but how would you guess the wrong location if you knew exactly where the unseen attacker was?
The rogue Blindsense feature states, “Starting at 14th level, if you are able to hear, you are aware of the location of any hidden or invisible creature within 10 feet of you.”
The 18 level ranger Feral Senses feature states in part, “You are also aware of the location of any invisible creature within 30 feet of you, provided that the creature isn’t hidden from you and you aren’t blinded or deafened.” If creatures know the location of invisible creatures automatically, then these features would not need to specify the ability to locate invisible creatures, and the usefulness of that aspect of those features would be negated.
The Rod of Alertness’ ability to “sense the location of any invisible hostile creature that is also in the bright light,” would not need to be pointed out if the location of invisible creatures was known by default.
How I run it at my table:
An invisible creature who is not hidden does not automatically give away their position, but they might do so through their actions. Any character who wishes to know the invisible creature’s position can take the search action and attempt to perceive the invisible creature. This skill check is not made against the invisible creature’s stealth, but against a DC that I assign on the spot based on factors such as distance between the two creatures, whether the invisible creature has moved or taken any actions recently that would make noise, whether the perceiving creature has sensory advantages that go beyond sight, whether the invisible creature has cast any spells that have verbal components or create effects that would indicate the caster’s position, other environmental distractions, etc. And once the invisible creature’s position has been pinpointed, the perceiving creature is able to maintain the target’s position even as it moves until the invisible target goes behind cover or hides. If the passive perception of the perceiving creature is higher than the DC at a given time, I do not require the search action. That creature just knows where the target is. This does not end the invisible condition of course, so attacks against the target still have disadvantage even if the invisible creature’s position is pinpointed.
Being "unseen" is certainly important, but the term itself is just one aspect of being hidden, the other half being "unheard."
Mostly true (depending on whether you consider "disguised" or "camouflaged" to come under the game term "hidden"), but you can still be unseen and not hidden, so we do need to distinguish between them.
There are also situations where you can be hidden but seen (or at least partly seen), for example wood elf mask of the wild feature.
Lyxen, as you can see, perhaps you were out of place to say "dead wrong." I appreciate the otherwise non-combative tone.
It appears we disagree on the potency of a visual-dependent creature against a creature that can't be seen. Texas did cover it pretty well, but I believe you're severely gimping invisibility. As you can probably surmise, I put heavy stock in a creature's primary sense(s) in regard to fighting. I'm a combat veteran and also have dozens of years of experience with role playing. I'll re-emphasize my earlier points.
First, we ARE talking about optional grid rules, but it's the same with regard to space. A character moves within a 5-foot space they control in combat.
Within that space is room to allow another creature to pass through. This can be done as though the invisible creature and the one walking around were friendly. When allies move through an invisible ally's square, there is conventionally no chance they'll bump into each other. It is the invisible ally doing the permitting for the moving ally to pass through. Creatures don't have to stop enemies from moving through their square. First, the creature can simply be declared that it is neutral to all targets while invisible (which could have consequences- whatever an neutral target might suffer from an unknown hostile 'neutral' suddenly attacking them and not just their square). Then, pg 191 phb, Moving Around Other Creatures: "Whether a creature is a friend or an enemy, you can't willingly end your move in its space." So you can unwillingly end your move in a hostile creature's space- which more than implies a creature can move into enemy space in certain circumstances. This movement is not the kind of movement that changes the space the creature occupies. "A creature's space is the area in feet that it effectively controls in combat, not an expression of its physical dimensions... A creature's space also reflects the area it needs to fight effectively." So as long as the invisible creature is not taking fighting actions, they can occupy the same space, but the invisible creature cannot willingly end their movement in a hostile's space, even if invisible.
Avoid making sound that gives them away without having to make a stealth check It does not say that a creature has to make a stealth check to avoid making sound. It should require a check if they do something that would require a stealth check: opening a door enough for them to slip through or something that makes significant sound, depending on the situation. Your counter argument "...the problem is that ignoring those gives too much power to invisibility and really lowers the interest of being stealthy" is irrelevant, it doesn't apply to rules at all. I agree that it is quite effective as intended, so much so that it is practical to have counters to invisibility. It would be most unwise to be adventuring at mid to high levels without invisibility counters. Just as it would be unwise to be adventuring without ways to see in the dark at low level. So, as said originally, the invisible creature has to do something that gives themselves away for hearing to apply, as per RAW. If they're not doing something that makes noise ("a sound, especially one that is loud or unpleasant or that causes disturbance") then a creature can't locate them just by using hearing.
NightskyPirate, I want to remind you of 2 things quick. Moving through another creature's space is always difficult terrain as a general rule. Stealth always requires half speed movement of full walk as a general rule.
So, while it is possible to move as you suggest, an average 30 move becomes 7.5. That's not going to allow you much leeway, maybe a lucky sidestep, once.
Oh, I didn't pick up on allied creatures being difficult terrain and haven't been using that rule (that's one of the reasons I come here, to pick up on those things). That changes the one for walking around to find creatures, with that rule, is totally doable. I had thought it was saying that moving through large hostile creature space was difficult terrain when it mentioned it in "Moving Around Other Creatures". Heh heh...
About sidestepping, my argument on that is completely negated by creature's space being difficult terrain for others. I see now why the mention of prepared action to change space was the logical continuation.
Now have the absurd idea of invisible zombies with no other purpose than to provide a movable, on-command permeable wall...
Oh, I didn't pick up on allied creatures being difficult terrain and haven't been using that rule (that's one of the reasons I come here, to pick up on those things). That changes the one for walking around to find creatures, with that rule, is totally doable.
About sidestepping, my argument on that is completely negated by creature's space being difficult terrain for others. I see now why the mention of prepared action to change space was the logical continuation.
Glad to help. Now to the defense of your idea you have these options(among others I'm sure):
Halfling Nimbleness
You can move through the space of any creature that is of a size larger than yours.
Cunning Action
Starting at 2nd level, your quick thinking and agility allow you to move and act quickly. You can take a bonus action on each of your turns in combat. This action can be used only to take the Dash, Disengage, or Hide action.
This is a great combo to do what you mention above.
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Hey there!
I had some rules questions come up on the issue of hiding, so I decided to outline all the conditions where hiding might be applicable in an effort to be more transparent with my players. In addition, one of my players revealed a novel way to detect a hidden creature using movement, which I had never really considered before (i.e. walking around until you bump into something.)
I posted this elsewhere but I didn't get too many responses, and I'm really looking for feedback. I was hoping the rest of you might take a look and let me know what you think?
I would appreciate any feedback you may have, including features that allow hiding that I may have overlooked, or anything else, really.
(The table formatting on the site isn't that great, so I am just posting the google docs link for now.)
Google sheets link here.
I would suggest NOT giving them that. I looked at it, and would disagree with some things. For example, invisibility. Normally can't just sense them using hearing. If a creature is invisible, either the creature must do something to give themselves away (opening a door, speaking) or an observer needs a special way to "see" them (tremorsense).
The rules are specific enough that trying to define every way to notice a hidden creature WILL work against you. Let the player tell you how they try to notice something, then determine if it works or not. Sometimes walking around randomly might work (normally not, an invisible creature who doesn't want to be found can just sidestep that even in a 5 ft square if you're going on a grid), but don't set in stone what works and what doesn't. Just give the rules and some EXAMPLES if they need help understanding.
Have experience with that personally. :)
The main hurdle to get over for my group of new players, was getting them out of the mind frame of video game RPGs, where ‘hiding’ is essentially a combination of invisibility and memory wiping. Looking at you, Elder Scrolls.
Having a reference sheet like you’ve created might be more helpful for DMing than players, to help you make rulings. But for players, having hard and fast rules leaves little space for flexibility, and can lead to confusion or frustration.
Hiding isn’t a switch that players can flip. The conditions have to be right. While your cheat sheet goes some way to suggesting some of those conditions, there’s so much more to think about. Yes, full cover means you can hide - but it doesn’t mean the creatures suddenly forget you’re there. I’d need to assess what else is going on, and understand what my player wants to do, to see if they can make a hide check.
‘As the fighter is making a nuisance of herself, on my turn, I’d like to see if I can make it from behind this wall, to behind that pile of boxes without being seen.’
It would be better to assess each hiding scenario as it happens, taking into account everything that’s going on, and make a ruling accordingly.
‘I walk around until I bump into the invisible creature’ wouldn’t work in my game. Unless the creature was somehow immobile or massive, and the room was tiny. The creature would simply move out of the way.
Per the PHB p. 177: "An invisible creature can always try to hide. Signs of its passage might still be noticed, and it does have to stay quiet."
So there are two things mentioned here. "Signs of its passage" could mean footprints, but it could also be smell or the sound of shuffling feet. Wisdom (Perception) represents a combination of all the senses. Some creatures are especially good at smelling things, for instance. Others are good at hearing. All of them use Wisdom (Perception).
The second segment mentions that an invisible creature still has "to stay quiet." So if they don't attempt to be stealthy, they are making just as much noise as they normally would. You just can't see them. Even if an invisible creature is trying to be stealthy, they can still be heard or smelled. It all depends on the rolls.
As for side-stepping, a creature can only move on its turn in combat. Outside of combat is another story.
Ironically, your advice regarding letting the players tell me when they can hide and making a call in the moment is what prompted the creation of this table. :)
I agree that there is much more to think about. That's why the table is only about when a creature can hide and how they can be discovered. As for your scenario, the only thing this table would be used for is to see if any of the methods of hiding are available. Since cover is available, the answer is "yes, an attempt can be made."
I ran the "bump into an invisible creature" past a bunch of other DMs and they disagreed, and said it was smart of the player. Personally, I had never thought to do something like that, so I ruled at the table the same way you did. Unfortunately, in combat a creature can't move when it's not their turn. Furthermore, it's not just invisibility where this technique becomes valid but a whole slew of conditions, such as fog and darkness. Finally, the rules stating that a character can't move through an enemy's square solidified the player's case for me.
Actually, some creatures especially skilled in stealth could move when it's not their turn. Many Rogue types can hide with a bonus action. If staying hidden is the main goal, they ready their action for movement. Condition, if movement is required to stay hidden, the reaction is used for that.
As far as just wandering around to find an invisible creature. Depending on the area to be covered, it could be feasible that a character moving at full speed with no stealth concerns could randomly pressure a creature limited to half movement into a giveaway mistake.
Stealth
While traveling at a slow pace, the characters can move stealthily. As long as they’re not in the open, they can try to surprise or sneak by other creatures they encounter. See the rules for hiding in the Using Ability Scores section.
I'm not saying you're explicitly wrong with this part (emphasis mine) but there is a lot more nuance to the situation than this statement would indicate.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Right, so readying an action to do something that you normally wouldn't be able to do is an example of specific beating general. It was intended to be inferred that a creature can not normally move outside of their turn. Furthermore, once you move you technically come out of hiding, your position is known. Exceptions to this rule can be made by the DM. (Source) Regardless, none of this changes what is written in the table. :)
I'm not sure what nuance would really apply here. A creature who is not trying to be stealthy would not fall under either the hiding or stealth rules.
I am specifically referring to the nuance involved in handling a creature that is invisible and unhidden. I'm all for having a conversation about the subtleties of that situation, but that isn't what you asked for in your OP. You did ask for feedback though, so I will say that I found your list to be a good reference and very comprehensive, primarily for a DM (my subjective opinion). I would not give this out as a reference to the players at my table, but your situation is completely different than mine, so play it as you see fit.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
I think this has missed the difference between "unseen" and "hidden."
Unseen - I can't see you but I know where you are. Perhaps you are invisible but I know where you are by your footprints or by the sound of your gear . Perhaps you are concealed from me but I still know where you are, because I saw you duck behind that tree.
Hidden - I don't know where you are, or even that you are there at all. Perhaps you are invisible and have taken care to leave no tracks and make no sound (probably by making a DEX (Stealth) check). Perhaps you are camouflaged to be something else (an INT (Stealth) check?). Maybe you are invisible and flying and incorporeal? Maybe you ducked behind a tree and teleported to another tree when I couldn't see you. Maybe you just teleported away and are now several miles from me.
Being "unseen" is certainly important, but the term itself is just one aspect of being hidden, the other half being "unheard." (Source, 36:25) If your contested Dexterity (Stealth) roll is successful, you are both unseen and unheard, regardless of whether a player knows where you are. The player might know the creature is hiding in a specific place, but can't target them because they are unseen and unheard.
I believe I covered all of the examples you listed in your "hidden" description, so that's good.
Agreed. I felt the same when I saw it. I wouldn't give it to players, who can just refer to their own PHB to understand how hiding works. But it's useful to have behind the DM screen to quickly check how I might want to handle a specific hide check for my players.
I wouldn't give it to players, because I'd rather have them approach encounters with what their characters might be thinking about hiding enemies, rather than going through a checklist of potential hiding criteria and rules to check off.
I'd rather my players let me know that they're suspicious of someone hiding in the thicket of trees, and then let me handle the rules around hiding - that way I can handle all the nuances and additional things that might be going on that would affect any checks I want them to make.
As I mentioned before, having a list of rules to reference can leave players feeling constrained and out-of-character. If your players are querying certain rules around hiding, that's fine, but a good way to handle it is to ask 'What's your character thinking?' If they know there's creatures hiding nearby, then you handle the relevant checks. If they're just feeling a bit nervous that there might be creatures hiding nearby, then again - make a ruling based on everything that's going on, and leave your players to handle what their characters are thinking, feeling, and wanting to do.
Yeah, after sleeping on it I think you might be right. The issue that spurred this at my table was a matter of fairness and consistency, as the vibe I was getting was that I was playing a bit loose with the hiding rules. But perhaps it's best to be used not as a reference for players but something I can refer to behind the screen for my own consistency when adjudicating.
Thanks for this post. I think it will really help me a lot. I didn't care for the official rules about rolling Stealth and letting it apply multiple rounds until you posted above. I had been forcing too many Stealth rolls to both NPCs and PCs, it was in response to too few being asked for(in my opinion) while I was a player. I think what I got out of the above information is that no new Stealth roll is required if the circumstances haven't significantly changed. If cover becomes sparse or you need to dash from cover to cover, or you are getting closer to an enemy, things like this might require a new check. In some cases, changing circumstances might even be in favor of the Stealther, like being allowed a new check with advantage due to a nearby commotion.
Yes I think I'm going to keep the table but not have it guide every hiding decision. I'm certainly on the side of keeping it from players for the very reasons you describe. Stifling creativity is the last thing I want to do.
And in a way, the table was made as a sort of study, a bit of self signed homework if you will. In that sense, it was largely a success. I feel like I have an even deeper understanding of the rules and how to run hiding.
Since we are discussing the ins and outs of being seen both with and without being hidden, let me elaborate on what I said earlier about the nuance of invisibility in the absence of being hidden. It is generally accepted that people are aware of the presence of an invisible creature who is not hidden, but as to whether their exact location is known, one could make a case both ways.
The case for:
The case against:
How I run it at my table:
An invisible creature who is not hidden does not automatically give away their position, but they might do so through their actions. Any character who wishes to know the invisible creature’s position can take the search action and attempt to perceive the invisible creature. This skill check is not made against the invisible creature’s stealth, but against a DC that I assign on the spot based on factors such as distance between the two creatures, whether the invisible creature has moved or taken any actions recently that would make noise, whether the perceiving creature has sensory advantages that go beyond sight, whether the invisible creature has cast any spells that have verbal components or create effects that would indicate the caster’s position, other environmental distractions, etc. And once the invisible creature’s position has been pinpointed, the perceiving creature is able to maintain the target’s position even as it moves until the invisible target goes behind cover or hides. If the passive perception of the perceiving creature is higher than the DC at a given time, I do not require the search action. That creature just knows where the target is. This does not end the invisible condition of course, so attacks against the target still have disadvantage even if the invisible creature’s position is pinpointed.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Mostly true (depending on whether you consider "disguised" or "camouflaged" to come under the game term "hidden"), but you can still be unseen and not hidden, so we do need to distinguish between them.
There are also situations where you can be hidden but seen (or at least partly seen), for example wood elf mask of the wild feature.
Lyxen, as you can see, perhaps you were out of place to say "dead wrong." I appreciate the otherwise non-combative tone.
It appears we disagree on the potency of a visual-dependent creature against a creature that can't be seen. Texas did cover it pretty well, but I believe you're severely gimping invisibility. As you can probably surmise, I put heavy stock in a creature's primary sense(s) in regard to fighting. I'm a combat veteran and also have dozens of years of experience with role playing. I'll re-emphasize my earlier points.
This can be done as though the invisible creature and the one walking around were friendly. When allies move through an invisible ally's square, there is conventionally no chance they'll bump into each other. It is the invisible ally doing the permitting for the moving ally to pass through. Creatures don't have to stop enemies from moving through their square. First, the creature can simply be declared that it is neutral to all targets while invisible (which could have consequences- whatever an neutral target might suffer from an unknown hostile 'neutral' suddenly attacking them and not just their square). Then, pg 191 phb, Moving Around Other Creatures: "Whether a creature is a friend or an enemy, you can't willingly end your move in its space." So you can unwillingly end your move in a hostile creature's space- which more than implies a creature can move into enemy space in certain circumstances.
This movement is not the kind of movement that changes the space the creature occupies. "A creature's space is the area in feet that it effectively controls in combat, not an expression of its physical dimensions... A creature's space also reflects the area it needs to fight effectively." So as long as the invisible creature is not taking fighting actions, they can occupy the same space, but the invisible creature cannot willingly end their movement in a hostile's space, even if invisible.
It does not say that a creature has to make a stealth check to avoid making sound. It should require a check if they do something that would require a stealth check: opening a door enough for them to slip through or something that makes significant sound, depending on the situation. Your counter argument "...the problem is that ignoring those gives too much power to invisibility and really lowers the interest of being stealthy" is irrelevant, it doesn't apply to rules at all. I agree that it is quite effective as intended, so much so that it is practical to have counters to invisibility. It would be most unwise to be adventuring at mid to high levels without invisibility counters. Just as it would be unwise to be adventuring without ways to see in the dark at low level. So, as said originally, the invisible creature has to do something that gives themselves away for hearing to apply, as per RAW. If they're not doing something that makes noise ("a sound, especially one that is loud or unpleasant or that causes disturbance") then a creature can't locate them just by using hearing.
NightskyPirate, I want to remind you of 2 things quick. Moving through another creature's space is always difficult terrain as a general rule. Stealth always requires half speed movement of full walk as a general rule.
So, while it is possible to move as you suggest, an average 30 move becomes 7.5. That's not going to allow you much leeway, maybe a lucky sidestep, once.
Oh, I didn't pick up on allied creatures being difficult terrain and haven't been using that rule (that's one of the reasons I come here, to pick up on those things). That changes the one for walking around to find creatures, with that rule, is totally doable. I had thought it was saying that moving through large hostile creature space was difficult terrain when it mentioned it in "Moving Around Other Creatures". Heh heh...
About sidestepping, my argument on that is completely negated by creature's space being difficult terrain for others. I see now why the mention of prepared action to change space was the logical continuation.
Now have the absurd idea of invisible zombies with no other purpose than to provide a movable, on-command permeable wall...
Glad to help. Now to the defense of your idea you have these options(among others I'm sure):
Halfling Nimbleness
You can move through the space of any creature that is of a size larger than yours.
Cunning Action
Starting at 2nd level, your quick thinking and agility allow you to move and act quickly. You can take a bonus action on each of your turns in combat. This action can be used only to take the Dash, Disengage, or Hide action.
This is a great combo to do what you mention above.