I was building a Path of Ancestral Guardian Barbarian Javelin build. It loses out on the rage damage modifier but would be a fun way to tank. But I didn't want to go the traditional dump stat intelligence route. I want to have a creative barbarian that forges tools. Specifically, I want to utilize a harpoon, connected to a linked chain, run through or connected to a tether/ground stake. If it is just run through a ring on the tethered ground stake, then the other end of the chain is connected to a belt around the barbarian.
Imagine a dog leash but instead of a collar, its connected to a harpoon thrown through an enemy. Also, the other end is either connected to the tether or connected to the barbarian run through the tether.
The idea would be to throw the javelin and the target will be tethered either:
To the Ground Stake wherein the target could either attempt to break the chain, pull up the ground stake, or remove the harpoon.
To the Barbarian who would essential perform a Grapple at range to pull the chain pulling the target to the center tether... but could also be grappled (pulled)
This question is specific, but also kind of applies to a more broad issue. Casters are able to utilize spells similar to tools. I don't think its unreasonable if your character takes the effort to 1) train in smith tools; 2) haul around tools and materials and make repairs; and 3) has the intelligence to build tools... why you can't be as creative with a martial class as a caster is (as long as it seems balanced).
Action Economy would come into Question:
Action: Setup the Tether/Ground Stake and connect chains
Action: Attack (Harpoon) and Extra Attack (Grapple with Chain)
Repeat
Similar to a Merrow ... it has a Harpoon attack, although its Large (2d6), so I'd use a Javelin stats (1d6)... and there would be a strength contest for a grapple if either the barbarian or the target wanted to move.
Any thoughts on the mechanics of this? I don't see why casters can be the only ones creative when the game has tool's built into it for building things. Thanks!
I don't think there's any problem with running this by your DM and working out the details. But do temper your expectations, because what's good for the Merrow (who only ever gets one encounter to show his stuff, and who is balanced against a team of 4-5 highly competent humanoid player characters) may not necessarily be good for the Player (who goes through hundreds of encounters over his life, agaisnt all sorts of different creatures with wildly different physiologies and combat mechanics).
First thing first... grappling. What's good about it? It prevents movement, can force movement, and taxes the victims action economy by requiring an action to break. Very strong! What balances that? It replaces an attack and does no damage, requires a free hand during the attempt, requires a free hand to maintain, requires melee range, and slows down the grappler while they maintain the grapple. Some signifigant setbacks that balance how good it is. A grapple that does damage, doesn't require a free hand to make or maintain, can be performed from range, and which doesn't restrict the grapplers movement while maintaining..... basically undoes every single balancing factor that grappling has. That isn't to say that a harpoon grapple isn't a doable idea or isn't cool, but you can't just expect to grapple targets you hit with your javelin and call it a day.
What are some ways that we can make the normal grapple limitations apply to the harpoon, or new limitations we can come up with? Maybe:
lower damage compared to a non-harpoon javelin?
lower range compared to a normal javelin?
disadvantage on attack rolls due to the bulky tether?
a static DC for the victim to avoid/break the grapple, which is probably much lower than a traditional grappler's Athletics check would be? (like... 12?)
Requiring a full Attack Action to throw the harpoon, even if the attacker has more attacks?
Requiring an Action be spent to set up the anchor the round before? (you mentioned this one)
Not setting the victim's speed to 0 as normal for a grapple, but instead just requiring them to stay within a X-foot radius of the anchor (or attacker, if it's tied to their belt)?
Giving the victim the ability to drag their attacker if it's tied to them, in the same way a grappler would normally drag their victim?
Letting them make a Strength (Con? Dex?) save at the end of their turn to have the harpoon fall out, instead of (or in addition to) an active Athletics/Acrobatics check to end it?
Some or all of these might be sufficient to balance the new advantages that a ranged Grapple is opening up. Honestly, being "Tethered" sounds like its pretty different from being Grappled, so really I'd suggest you create a new condition or unique effect, and not even try to call it a Grapple.
I get what you're saying about creativity, but these are significant benefits you're asking for here. You keep talking about casters - I think the magic equivalent would be an Artificer asking to fire chains with Catapult that wrap around the target when they hit to restrain it. Which I'm pretty sure most DMs would reply with no. At least after the first time they tried it.
If you want to use your grapple chain to do stuff outside of combat, I'd be all for it. That's typically when spells are used creatively too, but keep in mind that spells are a limited resource.
If one of my players really wanted this, it would probably need to be a full homebrew subclass because that's the power level of this kind of maneuver. A more limited use might take the form of a magic item which would be tethered to the waist and it would likely have... undesired consequences when you tether to something much bigger and stronger than you. But actually this sounds like it could be a really fun mechanic. It just shouldn't be essentially free just because you didn't dump INT.
I'm not sure if it was worded a little differently in D&D 3.5 vs. Pathfinder, but some weapons in both systems had soemthing similar to this Pathfinder trait:
Grapple: On a successful critical hit with a weapon of this type, you can grapple the target of the attack. The wielder can then attempt a combat maneuver check to grapple his opponent as a free action. This grapple attempt does not provoke an attack of opportunity from the creature you are attempting to grapple if that creature is not threatening you. While you grapple the target with a grappling weapon, you can only move or damage the creature on your turn. You are still considered grappled, though you do not have to be adjacent to the creature to continue the grapple. If you move far enough away to be out of the weapon’s reach, you end the grapple with that action.
Obviously, grappling balance is very different in 5E vs prior editions, but limiting the harpoon grapple (or "tether") to critical hits could be a way to justify adding fewer other drawbacks.
Misgivings about balance aside, as a DM I have a problem with telling players "no" to simple concepts that there should be a way to do. Its hard to imagine a fantasy world where someone isn't whaling with harpoons, so why shouldn't there be a way to use them in combat? If I were to give it a stab (ha!), I'd try:
A harpoon is a heavy spear with a barbed head, designed to become lodged in its victim. The butt of the haft is attached to a trailing line 30 feet in length, to control the movement of tethered victims. Proficiency with a Harpoon is required to add your proficiency bonus to the attack roll for any attack you make with it, and to have the chance to inflict its Special "Tethered" condition on attacks.
Special (Tether): A critical hit or any attack that rolls maximum weapon die damage (a 6 on a d6) with a Harpoon lodges the head in the target's body and inflicts the special Tethered condition, for so long as the attacker continues to hold the Harpoon's line with at least one hand or ties off the line to a suitably heavy object using an Action. If the attacker drops the line without tieing it off, or ties it off to an unsuitably light object, the target no longer suffers the negative effects of Tethered, but the weapon remains lodged until they spend an Action to dislodge it (see below). Any creature with a free hand can attempt to grab and hold a loose line and re-Tether the creature by taking the Use an Object action and succeeding a Dexterity (Acrobatics) check opposed by the creature's Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics).
A creature Tethered by a Harpoon moves at half speed, and cannot move beyond 30 feet from the end of the line where it is held or tied, unless it successfully dislodges the Harpoon or breaks the line. After moving at least 5 feet, a creature may normally make one free attempt per turn to break the line with a successful DC 17* strength check (no action required); a creature that Dashes and also moves at least 10 feet may make this attempt a second time in a turn. Additionally, a creature (either the creature Tethered, or another creature within reach) with a free hand may spend an Action attempting to dislodge the Harpoon with a DC 15 Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) or Intelligence (Medicine) check.
While Tethered, both the creature Tethered by a Harpoon or the attacker holding the line may use one or more attacks as part of the Attack Action to attempt a special type of melee attack called a Tug against the other creature(s) on the line: after making a successful Strength (Athletics) check opposed by the other creature(s) Strength (Athletics), the victor may either knock the other prone or pull them up to 10 feet closer.
A creature that is Tethered to a suitably fixed or heavy object instead of to another creature holding the line can attempt to drag the object at the end of the line while moving at no more than half speed, subject to the normal weight restrictions found in Chapter 7. If dragging an object in excess of the creature's carrying capacity, up to twice its carrying capacity, the Tethered creature's speed drops to 5 feet as normal. A creature cannot drag an object that is more than twice its carrying capacity, as normal.
A Tethered creature that is two or more sizes larger than the attacker holding the line may disregard the restriction on moving more than 30 feet from the other end of the line. However, it continues to move at half speed while Tethered, and will pull the attacker holding the line as it moves (subject to the normal weight restrictions found in Chapter 7, as described in the paragraph above).
* Certain specialized Harpoons may be equipped with chain (DC 20 to break), or other magical or exotic rope materials. Chain Harpoons weigh twice the normal amount, and ranged attacks made with Chain Harpoons are always made with Disadvantage.
Woof, that weapon would be a pain in the ass to arbitrate, and there's lots of weird edge cases that will probably cause problems... but if your DM wants to meet you halfway on the concept, I think this could be a start of that conversation? Let me know what you think.
I'm realizing I should rephrase/reorganize/simplify that a bit, so that both the victim and the person holding the line are both Tethered to one another (half speed and movement restrictions, "Tug" enabled, can try to break the line, can drag other party if two or more sizes bigger), but that the victim can only end the condition by breaking the line or removing the Harpoon (and move Harpoon being embedded out of Tethered), while the holder can instead end the condition by breaking, dropping, or tieing off the line. Otherwise, the person holding the line can end up running around willy nilly and set up odd placement conditions that are going to lead to unintended consequences, like the tethered victim being more than 30 feet away. Making Tethered more about being connected by a line, and moving the stuff that is specifically about Harpoon being embedded in flesh to a seperate section, would also open up the possibiity of re-using Tethered for other situations (like being chained together, or ranged web attacks). Hmm.
I really appreciate everyone's input! I think it would be good to draw some distinctions and comparisons. A good comparison is the Fighter Rune Knight (UA) Fire Rune.
Ild (Fire Rune)
This rune’s magic channels the masterful craftsmanship of fire giant smiths. While wearing or carrying an object inscribed with this rune, your proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability check you make that uses your proficiency with a tool.
In addition, when you hit a creature with a weapon attack, you can invoke the rune to summon fiery shackles: the target must succeed on a Strength saving throw or be restrained for 1 minute. While restrained by the shackles, the target takes 2d6 fire damage at the start of each of its turns. The target can repeat the saving throw at the end of each of its turns, banishing the shackles on a success. Once you invoke the rune, you can’t do so again until you finish a short or long rest.
So draw some Comparisons:
Fighter (Fire Rune) v. Harpoon Mechanic
Per Short Rest v. Materials / Carry Capacity / Repair
Cast At Any Time with No Prep v. Requires Preparation / Action
Results in Restrained v. Results in Movement Restriction*
Causes Damage Per Round v. No Damage Per Round
*Movement Restriction:
I think I used Grapple but that is not what I meant. The targets movement is not 0. If tethered to the Ground, the target Creature could move freely within the circumference of the chain to the tether. The target could try to make an ability check to pull out the staked tether; attach the chain; or pull out the harpoon (possibly for additional damage, like Booming Blade)
Where it is more complicated is If the chain ran from the harpoon, through the tether, connected to the Barbarian. The distance between the Barbarian and the Creature cannot exceed the length of the chain. When the distance between the two is going to exceed the Available Chain Length, then the following may apply: 1) Parties roll competing strength/athletic checks to pull the other creature closer to the tether either by a) moving themselves or b) interact with the chain to pull it (disadvantage if with one hand)
The more I write this I believe you all are correct that it requires its own condition "Tethered" that would have to be thought through. Interesting concept. I appreciate all the input!
Nobody mentioned this from what I see but, Path of the Depths already has a simple form of this.
Dredge Line
Starting when you choose this path at 3rd level, you manifest an extra appendage when you enter your rage. This weapon can appear as a kraken tentacle, a giant anchor, preternatural jaws, or something else based on your history.
As a bonus action, you can use this appendage to strike at one creature of your choice that you can see within 15 feet. The target must succeed on a Strength saving throw (DC equal to 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Strength modifier) or be pulled up to 10 feet in a straight line towards you.
A one-time pull (a la Dredge Line, or Thorn Whip, or Lightning Lure), could be a very simple way to nod at a harpoon. I don't think it really captures what they're actually used for (tethering a creature so that it can't escape you and is eventually exhausted), but it's certainly more mechanically straightforward than building something brand new, and could probably be added onto a javelin with very little balancing needed (like, maybe just drop the range a bit from 30/120 to 10/30).
A spring-loaded harpoon gun, fashioned from burnished bronze with iron fittings, is bolted to the forward upper deck. It has a 90-degree arc of fire (side to side, as well as up and down). The gun comes with a winch, a 500-foot coil of rope, and ten steel-tipped harpoons. Although it fires harpoons instead of bolts, the gun is considered a ballista (see the “Siege Equipment” section in chapter 8 of the Dungeon Master ’s Guide).
Tying a rope to a harpoon, if desired, takes an action. In addition to dealing 16 (3d10) piercing damage on a hit, a harpoon impales its target. While impaled, the target can’t take any action on its turn other than trying to free itself from the harpoon, which requires a successful DC 15 Strength check. If the check succeeds, the target takes 5 (1d10) piercing damage as the harpoon is pulled free and is no longer impaled. If a harpoon is attached to the gun by a rope, a creature impaled on that harpoon can’t move farther away from the gun or increase its altitude until it frees itself. A creature within reach of the gun’s winch can use its action to reel in a harpooned creature, pulling it up to 20 feet closer to the gun.
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I was building a Path of Ancestral Guardian Barbarian Javelin build. It loses out on the rage damage modifier but would be a fun way to tank. But I didn't want to go the traditional dump stat intelligence route. I want to have a creative barbarian that forges tools. Specifically, I want to utilize a harpoon, connected to a linked chain, run through or connected to a tether/ground stake. If it is just run through a ring on the tethered ground stake, then the other end of the chain is connected to a belt around the barbarian.
Imagine a dog leash but instead of a collar, its connected to a harpoon thrown through an enemy. Also, the other end is either connected to the tether or connected to the barbarian run through the tether.
The idea would be to throw the javelin and the target will be tethered either:
This question is specific, but also kind of applies to a more broad issue. Casters are able to utilize spells similar to tools. I don't think its unreasonable if your character takes the effort to 1) train in smith tools; 2) haul around tools and materials and make repairs; and 3) has the intelligence to build tools... why you can't be as creative with a martial class as a caster is (as long as it seems balanced).
Action Economy would come into Question:
Similar to a Merrow ... it has a Harpoon attack, although its Large (2d6), so I'd use a Javelin stats (1d6)... and there would be a strength contest for a grapple if either the barbarian or the target wanted to move.
Any thoughts on the mechanics of this? I don't see why casters can be the only ones creative when the game has tool's built into it for building things. Thanks!
I don't think there's any problem with running this by your DM and working out the details. But do temper your expectations, because what's good for the Merrow (who only ever gets one encounter to show his stuff, and who is balanced against a team of 4-5 highly competent humanoid player characters) may not necessarily be good for the Player (who goes through hundreds of encounters over his life, agaisnt all sorts of different creatures with wildly different physiologies and combat mechanics).
First thing first... grappling. What's good about it? It prevents movement, can force movement, and taxes the victims action economy by requiring an action to break. Very strong! What balances that? It replaces an attack and does no damage, requires a free hand during the attempt, requires a free hand to maintain, requires melee range, and slows down the grappler while they maintain the grapple. Some signifigant setbacks that balance how good it is. A grapple that does damage, doesn't require a free hand to make or maintain, can be performed from range, and which doesn't restrict the grapplers movement while maintaining..... basically undoes every single balancing factor that grappling has. That isn't to say that a harpoon grapple isn't a doable idea or isn't cool, but you can't just expect to grapple targets you hit with your javelin and call it a day.
What are some ways that we can make the normal grapple limitations apply to the harpoon, or new limitations we can come up with? Maybe:
Some or all of these might be sufficient to balance the new advantages that a ranged Grapple is opening up. Honestly, being "Tethered" sounds like its pretty different from being Grappled, so really I'd suggest you create a new condition or unique effect, and not even try to call it a Grapple.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
I get what you're saying about creativity, but these are significant benefits you're asking for here. You keep talking about casters - I think the magic equivalent would be an Artificer asking to fire chains with Catapult that wrap around the target when they hit to restrain it. Which I'm pretty sure most DMs would reply with no. At least after the first time they tried it.
If you want to use your grapple chain to do stuff outside of combat, I'd be all for it. That's typically when spells are used creatively too, but keep in mind that spells are a limited resource.
If one of my players really wanted this, it would probably need to be a full homebrew subclass because that's the power level of this kind of maneuver. A more limited use might take the form of a magic item which would be tethered to the waist and it would likely have... undesired consequences when you tether to something much bigger and stronger than you. But actually this sounds like it could be a really fun mechanic. It just shouldn't be essentially free just because you didn't dump INT.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
I agree with Scatterbrain. This is a subclass, with subclass abilities.
Good idea for one.
I'm not sure if it was worded a little differently in D&D 3.5 vs. Pathfinder, but some weapons in both systems had soemthing similar to this Pathfinder trait:
Obviously, grappling balance is very different in 5E vs prior editions, but limiting the harpoon grapple (or "tether") to critical hits could be a way to justify adding fewer other drawbacks.
Misgivings about balance aside, as a DM I have a problem with telling players "no" to simple concepts that there should be a way to do. Its hard to imagine a fantasy world where someone isn't whaling with harpoons, so why shouldn't there be a way to use them in combat? If I were to give it a stab (ha!), I'd try:
Woof, that weapon would be a pain in the ass to arbitrate, and there's lots of weird edge cases that will probably cause problems... but if your DM wants to meet you halfway on the concept, I think this could be a start of that conversation? Let me know what you think.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
I'm realizing I should rephrase/reorganize/simplify that a bit, so that both the victim and the person holding the line are both Tethered to one another (half speed and movement restrictions, "Tug" enabled, can try to break the line, can drag other party if two or more sizes bigger), but that the victim can only end the condition by breaking the line or removing the Harpoon (and move Harpoon being embedded out of Tethered), while the holder can instead end the condition by breaking, dropping, or tieing off the line. Otherwise, the person holding the line can end up running around willy nilly and set up odd placement conditions that are going to lead to unintended consequences, like the tethered victim being more than 30 feet away. Making Tethered more about being connected by a line, and moving the stuff that is specifically about Harpoon being embedded in flesh to a seperate section, would also open up the possibiity of re-using Tethered for other situations (like being chained together, or ranged web attacks). Hmm.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
I really appreciate everyone's input! I think it would be good to draw some distinctions and comparisons. A good comparison is the Fighter Rune Knight (UA) Fire Rune.
So draw some Comparisons:
Fighter (Fire Rune) v. Harpoon Mechanic
Per Short Rest v. Materials / Carry Capacity / Repair
Cast At Any Time with No Prep v. Requires Preparation / Action
Results in Restrained v. Results in Movement Restriction*
Causes Damage Per Round v. No Damage Per Round
*Movement Restriction:
I think I used Grapple but that is not what I meant. The targets movement is not 0. If tethered to the Ground, the target Creature could move freely within the circumference of the chain to the tether. The target could try to make an ability check to pull out the staked tether; attach the chain; or pull out the harpoon (possibly for additional damage, like Booming Blade)
Where it is more complicated is If the chain ran from the harpoon, through the tether, connected to the Barbarian. The distance between the Barbarian and the Creature cannot exceed the length of the chain. When the distance between the two is going to exceed the Available Chain Length, then the following may apply: 1) Parties roll competing strength/athletic checks to pull the other creature closer to the tether either by a) moving themselves or b) interact with the chain to pull it (disadvantage if with one hand)
The more I write this I believe you all are correct that it requires its own condition "Tethered" that would have to be thought through. Interesting concept. I appreciate all the input!
Nobody mentioned this from what I see but, Path of the Depths already has a simple form of this.
Dredge Line
Starting when you choose this path at 3rd level, you manifest an extra appendage when you enter your rage. This weapon can appear as a kraken tentacle, a giant anchor, preternatural jaws, or something else based on your history.
As a bonus action, you can use this appendage to strike at one creature of your choice that you can see within 15 feet. The target must succeed on a Strength saving throw (DC equal to 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Strength modifier) or be pulled up to 10 feet in a straight line towards you.
A one-time pull (a la Dredge Line, or Thorn Whip, or Lightning Lure), could be a very simple way to nod at a harpoon. I don't think it really captures what they're actually used for (tethering a creature so that it can't escape you and is eventually exhausted), but it's certainly more mechanically straightforward than building something brand new, and could probably be added onto a javelin with very little balancing needed (like, maybe just drop the range a bit from 30/120 to 10/30).
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Here are some D&D 5E specific harpoon examples.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/vehicles/battle-balloon
2. Harpoon Gun
A spring-loaded harpoon gun, fashioned from burnished bronze with iron fittings, is bolted to the forward upper deck. It has a 90-degree arc of fire (side to side, as well as up and down). The gun comes with a winch, a 500-foot coil of rope, and ten steel-tipped harpoons. Although it fires harpoons instead of bolts, the gun is considered a ballista (see the “Siege Equipment” section in chapter 8 of the Dungeon Master ’s Guide).
Tying a rope to a harpoon, if desired, takes an action. In addition to dealing 16 (3d10) piercing damage on a hit, a harpoon impales its target. While impaled, the target can’t take any action on its turn other than trying to free itself from the harpoon, which requires a successful DC 15 Strength check. If the check succeeds, the target takes 5 (1d10) piercing damage as the harpoon is pulled free and is no longer impaled. If a harpoon is attached to the gun by a rope, a creature impaled on that harpoon can’t move farther away from the gun or increase its altitude until it frees itself. A creature within reach of the gun’s winch can use its action to reel in a harpooned creature, pulling it up to 20 feet closer to the gun.