Hi, I've searched the forum and haven't found anything that answers this yet...
In combat, if a Wizard player has a familiar that is not close enough to touch on the Wizard's turn, can they use a bonus action to cast dragon's breath through the familiar, then have the familiar touch itself to gain the ability to use the Dragon's breath power on its same turn? I have a player who wants to do this, but two things about that I'm not sure of:
1. Can the dragon's breath ability be conferred on one's self through touch? If so, can a familiar then cast it on itself as well? (on the Wizard's turn, I assume)
2. Can that all happen on the same turn? The Dragon's breath spell says 1 bonus action for the caster, Find Familiar says 1 reaction for the familiar to cast a touch spell from its Wizard or whomever, and the Dragon's breath ability is an action by whatever invokes it, so that implies that all three things can happen in a single round (and would only cost the Wizard one bonus action, so she could cast a cantrip or something else the same round!)
In context this came up when a level 4 Wizard player had a Hawk familiar and wanted to turn it into a flying flamethrower on the same turn as she used a cantrip. I told her at a minimum it should have to fly close enough to her so that she could touch it before it could have this ability, otherwise it would have to wait till the next turn to use the breath weapon. Since she was within the familiar's movement distance of the target and we hadn't established where the familiar was at the start of the battle, it was the same result. Now I'm trying to figure out whether I should let her activate this familiar-mounted breath weapon remotely (when it starts within 100 feet) in the future.
To add complication, we have a house rule that the familiar just goes on her turn rather than rolling its own (I'm a new DM with 6 players and trying to simplify battles.) That means effectively she could do a full non-spell or cantrip action then for just the cost of a bonus action she could also activate this breath weapon anywhere the familiar is within 100 feet all in a single turn.
Dragon's breath + Familiar already seems a little OP to me, so I'm a skeptical that this is how Wizards intended this spell to be used. She found a reference on Reddit of others doing this, but I'd prefer to have something a little bit more official, so I put it to the wisdom of this forum.
In my mind, making the wizard have to touch the familiar first rather than allowing it to activate the spell on itself is a reasonable limitation. Alternatively, making the familiar wait till its next turn to use the breath seems reasonable. It's still a very powerful ability for 4th level either way.
1) You can target yourself with any spell with a range of touch; you are, after all, "a willing creature you touch." In turn, since you can cast touch spells through your familiar (using its reaction), it can target itself as well.
2) It can all certainly happen on the same turn. She uses her bonus action to cast it through the familiar - using up its reaction to do so - and that's that. Both the character and the familiar could very well still have their actions left, and the familiar can use it on its next turn to spew forth some Dragon's Breath. Presumably you have them act either in concert, or the familiar go immediately after. You could make it so the familiar goes before her, but that would be a little mean. Alternatively you could start rolling initiative for it, and leave it up to chance.
Everything she did was perfectly legal, and is honestly one of the classic ways to use a familiar. It really isn't as overpowered as you might think it is. Once a Hawk starts spraying elemental death at some enemies, they're going to target it, and it's a very easy and squishy target. Dragon's Breath requires concentration, so that's taken up so long as it's maintained. You clearly already know that you can't cast two leveled spells in one turn, so there's that for the round that it's cast.
Dragon's Breath can last up to a minute. If applied to a character with some survivability, it can do a lot of damage given a full minute. On a familiar, it shouldn't typically last more than 2-3 rounds; have your enemies prioritize killing it, and then the wizard has just used a 2nd level spell slot for a fifth of it's full potential.
So I am the wizard referred to in the original post. My opinion is this:
The wizard has a telepathic link to her familiar. The find familiar spell states that "when you cast a spell with a range of touch, your familiar can deliver the spell as if it had cast the spell" as long as it is within 100 ft. Therefore, I can cast Dragons Breath through my familiar within range (like any other touch spell) on "any willing creature" with a mouth - in this case, my familiar.
So the familiar casts it on himself as a bonus action (DB is labeled a bonus), then as a reaction spews chosen magical energy.
Yes, this is a powerful effect, but the way I see it, is that I am pretty weak in the HP department (another player keeps calling me squishy, which I find offensive...) so this levels the playing field a bit.
So to sum it up: DM thinks I have to physically touch my familiar, I feel like I can send the spell to my familiar telepathically (within 100 ft.)
just to clarify a couple things (in my eyes anyway)
first, the house rule doesn't work imo. but its largely moot as you can say wizard goes, then the familiar goes right after - still no need to track a separate initiative, but the difference is important when it comes to reactions vs. bonus actions vs. actions. Keep the turns separate and distinct.
On the wizard's turn:
Wizard does whatever is allowed as an action (keep in mind casting a spell is not allowed if it wants to cast a spell in the next step).
Wizard casts dragon's breath through the familiar (this assumes the familiar is within 100 ft) as a bonus action.
Familiar uses its reaction (again, still on the wizard's turn) to deliver the spell to itself.
On the familiar's turn:
Familiar uses its action to breathe awe-inspiring flames
And with pretty close to certainty at my table if there's any mob at all with the ability, on first mob's turn:
Familiar takes 1 pt of damage and dies. Character must now spend 10 gp and huddle in front of a smoking brazier for the next hour to summon another familiar.
Some might say that's harsh as a DM to just kill the familiar outright, but think about it...you're an attractive 1-toothed goblin in a battle against a bunch of gross-looking humans and this super-easy to kill bird flies by, bringing death and destruction - why would you NOT take it out first? Its an expensive 1-shot attack for a low-level character, but could be clutch and worth it.
And as a DM, that right there might be why you might want to make the familiar role its own initiative. If there's a mob's turn between the wizard's turn and the familiar's, the familiar might die before it ever gets to cast dragon's breath at all. Any wizard in the mob's group might very well know exactly what's about to happen...and warn all its buddies to attack the familiar.
Identifying a Spell
Sometimes a character wants to identify a spell that someone else is casting or that was already cast. To do so, a character can use their reaction to identify a spell as it’s being cast, or they can use an action on their turn to identify a spell by its effect after it is cast.
If the character perceived the casting, the spell’s effect, or both, the character can make an Intelligence (Arcana) check with the reaction or action. The DC equals 15 + the spell’s level. If the spell is cast as a class spell and the character is a member of that class, the check is made with advantage. For example, if the spellcaster casts a spell as a cleric, another cleric has advantage on the check to identify the spell. Some spells aren’t associated with any class when they’re cast, such as when a monster uses its Innate Spellcasting trait.
This Intelligence (Arcana) check represents the fact that identifying a spell requires a quick mind and familiarity with the theory and practice of casting. This is true even for a character whose spellcasting ability is Wisdom or Charisma. Being able to cast spells doesn’t by itself make you adept at deducing exactly what others are doing when they cast their spells.
The familiar feature LITERALLY says you can cast spells through your familiar, from their square as the origin, despite you being elsewhere. ”Finally, when you cast a spell with a range of touch, your familiar can deliver the spell as if it had cast the spell. Your familiar must be within 100 feet of you, and it must use its reaction to deliver the spell when you cast it.” If your DM is requiring you to touch the familiar, they are striking that ability explicitly, and nerfing you.
Just keep in mind: it’s you casting the spell, not the familiar. Your bonus action to cast it, your concentration to maintain it. The familiar just uses its reaction to be part of the process of casting.
Then on future rounds (or effectively the same round, depending how your DM is handling Familiar turns in combat), the Familiar is using its OWN action to use the special breath ability the spell grants.
If you’re doing that, you and the DM should have your familiar be properly put in the initiative order at the start of combat, track it’s turn/position/actions. (Also, remember that it too can get hit in AOEs!)
However, the trade off is that at that point, the enemies should treat the familiar as a valid target. It usually won’t last very long!
I’ve seen that often, familiars last a very long time because DMs don’t really have enemies target them. They’re likely to be a lot less useful if they have to be recast after every fight, since it takes just one stray arrow or AOE to take it down.
Yeah, any wizard worth his salt will be using an Owl, so the familiar has fly by.
Expected routine is as follows, assuming the Wizard goes just before the Familiar:
Mage casts a cantrip (legal with a bonus action spell)
Mage casts dragon's breath through the owl as a bonus action, begins to Concentrate.
Owl uses its reaction to deliver the spell to itself, on your turn.
On the Owl's turn, it flies 30 ft so that it is within 15 ft of 1 or more enemies
Owl breathe awe-inspiring flames 15 ft cone, save for 3d6 of your choice of damage
Owl flies 30 ft away using Fly-By to avoid AoO. Owl should end it's turn at least 15 ft in the air, to avoid melee attacks.
The real limitation is the concentration. For the next minute you must concentrate on the Dragon breath to do the extra 3d6 per round. That prevents a ton of the better spells. Once you hit 7th level in particular, concentration becomes very valuable as there are not a lot of non-concentration spells around.
But this is an effective attack method if you have a familiar and Dragon's breath at lower levels.. Great for many other caster types as well, in particular an Eldritch Knight melee fighter.
Yeah, any wizard worth his salt will be using an Owl, so the familiar has fly by.
Eh, the importance of that depends heavily on terrain. The optimal direction to aim a cone is straight down, as it covers about 50% more area that way and doesn't require ever getting within 5' of an enemy. I'm fond of bats because its a source of blindsight that is otherwise rather hard to obtain at low level.
The ability to aim a cone downwards in 3-dimensions to create a diameter effect instead of horizontally in 2D to create the typical fan is somewhat contested. Combat positioning and spellcasting areas are described in a generally 2D fashion, DMs usually conduct them using 2D grids.... just be prepared that introducing an endless parade of geometry pop quizzes for your DM as the familiar flies by from different altitudes and angles of attack may lead to a conclusion other than 15-foot diameter breath bombs once per round.
15 ft long cone = 15 ft diameter circle. Not that hard to figure out doing it from above.
But the Fly by is still key in any situation where your are sending your familiar into battle. Way too many times the ceiliing will be 10 ft tall which means a medium person standing on the ground can still hit a flying creature above them. Even without a low ceiling, the range of the spell is limited and anyone with a polearm + the feats
What if they’re 20 feet up, can they toast the heads of 5’+ creatures? Large creatures? What if they’re aiming down diagonally one square NE from 15’ height, what size effect on the 2D grid? What about two squares away?
D&D is a rather simplified combat system, and what we know about 5’ grids and spell effects doesn’t really equip us to (easily) draw or calculate 3D geometric effects. I’m not saying you’re wrong that a cone is a cone, just that the rules don’t really equip the DM with an elegant way to handle that, any more than they do the arc of arrows, inertia and acceleration, or even simultaneous movement of multiple bodies through space and time.
It’s a game that’s played on a grid, and flying combatants using complex geometric abilities which effect different z-levels differently based on height and angle are awkward.
What if they’re 20 feet up, can they toast the heads of 5’+ creatures? Large creatures? What if they’re aiming down diagonally one square NE from 15’ height, what size effect on the 2D grid? What about two squares away?
D&D is a rather simplified combat system, and what we know about 5’ grids and spell effects doesn’t really equip us to (easily) draw or calculate 3D geometric effects. I’m not saying you’re wrong that a cone is a cone, just that the rules don’t really equip the DM with an elegant way to handle that, any more than they do the arc of arrows, inertia and acceleration, or even simultaneous movement of multiple bodies through space and time.
It’s a game that’s played on a grid, and flying combatants using complex geometric abilities which effect different z-levels differently based on height and angle are awkward.
It would be the same thing as casting it horizontally at a number of creatures that are climbing a wall. The geometry doesn’t change just because the perspective does.
I think a poll to determine what % of tables use a 5-foot grid vs. theater of mind would be illuminating. My suspicion is that a 5-foot grid is "optional" in the same way that feats and multiclassing are (i.e., not actually optional, but rather a given for nearly all tables), but I could be wrong!
It is funny to me that 4E so perfected the precision of grid based combat in D&D, and yet was maligned in part for being too gamey... only for grid combat to continue being the default approach to combat.
It is funny to me that 4E so perfected the precision of grid based combat in D&D, and yet was maligned in part for being too gamey... only for grid combat to continue being the default approach to combat.
4e was a well written system, well designed as board game, and about as balanced as such a thing can practically be. Its problem was that it didn't really fit people's concept of what D&D is.
The ability to aim a cone downwards in 3-dimensions to create a diameter effect instead of horizontally in 2D to create the typical fan is somewhat contested. Combat positioning and spellcasting areas are described in a generally 2D fashion, DMs usually conduct them using 2D grids.... just be prepared that introducing an endless parade of geometry pop quizzes for your DM as the familiar flies by from different altitudes and angles of attack may lead to a conclusion other than 15-foot diameter breath bombs once per round.
If my players try to do that I will let them. And, of course, I will use it against them too!
What, automatically and irrespective of where the familiar is with respect to the mob or if they can even see it at all? And why would the mob automatically know it is a familiar? What if it was just a normal mouse hiding in the corner? Blast it anyway?
Probably because it's breathing fire at you?
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Hi, I've searched the forum and haven't found anything that answers this yet...
In combat, if a Wizard player has a familiar that is not close enough to touch on the Wizard's turn, can they use a bonus action to cast dragon's breath through the familiar, then have the familiar touch itself to gain the ability to use the Dragon's breath power on its same turn? I have a player who wants to do this, but two things about that I'm not sure of:
1. Can the dragon's breath ability be conferred on one's self through touch? If so, can a familiar then cast it on itself as well? (on the Wizard's turn, I assume)
2. Can that all happen on the same turn? The Dragon's breath spell says 1 bonus action for the caster, Find Familiar says 1 reaction for the familiar to cast a touch spell from its Wizard or whomever, and the Dragon's breath ability is an action by whatever invokes it, so that implies that all three things can happen in a single round (and would only cost the Wizard one bonus action, so she could cast a cantrip or something else the same round!)
In context this came up when a level 4 Wizard player had a Hawk familiar and wanted to turn it into a flying flamethrower on the same turn as she used a cantrip. I told her at a minimum it should have to fly close enough to her so that she could touch it before it could have this ability, otherwise it would have to wait till the next turn to use the breath weapon. Since she was within the familiar's movement distance of the target and we hadn't established where the familiar was at the start of the battle, it was the same result. Now I'm trying to figure out whether I should let her activate this familiar-mounted breath weapon remotely (when it starts within 100 feet) in the future.
To add complication, we have a house rule that the familiar just goes on her turn rather than rolling its own (I'm a new DM with 6 players and trying to simplify battles.) That means effectively she could do a full non-spell or cantrip action then for just the cost of a bonus action she could also activate this breath weapon anywhere the familiar is within 100 feet all in a single turn.
Dragon's breath + Familiar already seems a little OP to me, so I'm a skeptical that this is how Wizards intended this spell to be used. She found a reference on Reddit of others doing this, but I'd prefer to have something a little bit more official, so I put it to the wisdom of this forum.
In my mind, making the wizard have to touch the familiar first rather than allowing it to activate the spell on itself is a reasonable limitation. Alternatively, making the familiar wait till its next turn to use the breath seems reasonable. It's still a very powerful ability for 4th level either way.
Quick and easy answer, yes to all of it.
1) You can target yourself with any spell with a range of touch; you are, after all, "a willing creature you touch." In turn, since you can cast touch spells through your familiar (using its reaction), it can target itself as well.
2) It can all certainly happen on the same turn. She uses her bonus action to cast it through the familiar - using up its reaction to do so - and that's that. Both the character and the familiar could very well still have their actions left, and the familiar can use it on its next turn to spew forth some Dragon's Breath. Presumably you have them act either in concert, or the familiar go immediately after. You could make it so the familiar goes before her, but that would be a little mean. Alternatively you could start rolling initiative for it, and leave it up to chance.
Everything she did was perfectly legal, and is honestly one of the classic ways to use a familiar. It really isn't as overpowered as you might think it is. Once a Hawk starts spraying elemental death at some enemies, they're going to target it, and it's a very easy and squishy target. Dragon's Breath requires concentration, so that's taken up so long as it's maintained. You clearly already know that you can't cast two leveled spells in one turn, so there's that for the round that it's cast.
Dragon's Breath can last up to a minute. If applied to a character with some survivability, it can do a lot of damage given a full minute. On a familiar, it shouldn't typically last more than 2-3 rounds; have your enemies prioritize killing it, and then the wizard has just used a 2nd level spell slot for a fifth of it's full potential.
So I am the wizard referred to in the original post. My opinion is this:
The wizard has a telepathic link to her familiar. The find familiar spell states that "when you cast a spell with a range of touch, your familiar can deliver the spell as if it had cast the spell" as long as it is within 100 ft. Therefore, I can cast Dragons Breath through my familiar within range (like any other touch spell) on "any willing creature" with a mouth - in this case, my familiar.
So the familiar casts it on himself as a bonus action (DB is labeled a bonus), then as a reaction spews chosen magical energy.
Yes, this is a powerful effect, but the way I see it, is that I am pretty weak in the HP department (another player keeps calling me squishy, which I find offensive...) so this levels the playing field a bit.
So to sum it up: DM thinks I have to physically touch my familiar, I feel like I can send the spell to my familiar telepathically (within 100 ft.)
Looking for clarity.
just to clarify a couple things (in my eyes anyway)
first, the house rule doesn't work imo. but its largely moot as you can say wizard goes, then the familiar goes right after - still no need to track a separate initiative, but the difference is important when it comes to reactions vs. bonus actions vs. actions. Keep the turns separate and distinct.
On the wizard's turn:
On the familiar's turn:
And with pretty close to certainty at my table if there's any mob at all with the ability, on first mob's turn:
Some might say that's harsh as a DM to just kill the familiar outright, but think about it...you're an attractive 1-toothed goblin in a battle against a bunch of gross-looking humans and this super-easy to kill bird flies by, bringing death and destruction - why would you NOT take it out first? Its an expensive 1-shot attack for a low-level character, but could be clutch and worth it.
And as a DM, that right there might be why you might want to make the familiar role its own initiative. If there's a mob's turn between the wizard's turn and the familiar's, the familiar might die before it ever gets to cast dragon's breath at all. Any wizard in the mob's group might very well know exactly what's about to happen...and warn all its buddies to attack the familiar.
Identifying a Spell
Sometimes a character wants to identify a spell that someone else is casting or that was already cast. To do so, a character can use their reaction to identify a spell as it’s being cast, or they can use an action on their turn to identify a spell by its effect after it is cast.
If the character perceived the casting, the spell’s effect, or both, the character can make an Intelligence (Arcana) check with the reaction or action. The DC equals 15 + the spell’s level. If the spell is cast as a class spell and the character is a member of that class, the check is made with advantage. For example, if the spellcaster casts a spell as a cleric, another cleric has advantage on the check to identify the spell. Some spells aren’t associated with any class when they’re cast, such as when a monster uses its Innate Spellcasting trait.
This Intelligence (Arcana) check represents the fact that identifying a spell requires a quick mind and familiarity with the theory and practice of casting. This is true even for a character whose spellcasting ability is Wisdom or Charisma. Being able to cast spells doesn’t by itself make you adept at deducing exactly what others are doing when they cast their spells.
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The familiar feature LITERALLY says you can cast spells through your familiar, from their square as the origin, despite you being elsewhere. ”Finally, when you cast a spell with a range of touch, your familiar can deliver the spell as if it had cast the spell. Your familiar must be within 100 feet of you, and it must use its reaction to deliver the spell when you cast it.” If your DM is requiring you to touch the familiar, they are striking that ability explicitly, and nerfing you.
Just keep in mind: it’s you casting the spell, not the familiar. Your bonus action to cast it, your concentration to maintain it. The familiar just uses its reaction to be part of the process of casting.
Then on future rounds (or effectively the same round, depending how your DM is handling Familiar turns in combat), the Familiar is using its OWN action to use the special breath ability the spell grants.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Yes, I definitely think you can do that.
If you’re doing that, you and the DM should have your familiar be properly put in the initiative order at the start of combat, track it’s turn/position/actions. (Also, remember that it too can get hit in AOEs!)
However, the trade off is that at that point, the enemies should treat the familiar as a valid target. It usually won’t last very long!
I’ve seen that often, familiars last a very long time because DMs don’t really have enemies target them. They’re likely to be a lot less useful if they have to be recast after every fight, since it takes just one stray arrow or AOE to take it down.
Yeah, any wizard worth his salt will be using an Owl, so the familiar has fly by.
Expected routine is as follows, assuming the Wizard goes just before the Familiar:
The real limitation is the concentration. For the next minute you must concentrate on the Dragon breath to do the extra 3d6 per round. That prevents a ton of the better spells. Once you hit 7th level in particular, concentration becomes very valuable as there are not a lot of non-concentration spells around.
But this is an effective attack method if you have a familiar and Dragon's breath at lower levels.. Great for many other caster types as well, in particular an Eldritch Knight melee fighter.
Eh, the importance of that depends heavily on terrain. The optimal direction to aim a cone is straight down, as it covers about 50% more area that way and doesn't require ever getting within 5' of an enemy. I'm fond of bats because its a source of blindsight that is otherwise rather hard to obtain at low level.
Yeah, the Owl’s flyby is great for the help action, but for dragon’s breath not so much.
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The ability to aim a cone downwards in 3-dimensions to create a diameter effect instead of horizontally in 2D to create the typical fan is somewhat contested. Combat positioning and spellcasting areas are described in a generally 2D fashion, DMs usually conduct them using 2D grids.... just be prepared that introducing an endless parade of geometry pop quizzes for your DM as the familiar flies by from different altitudes and angles of attack may lead to a conclusion other than 15-foot diameter breath bombs once per round.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
15 ft long cone = 15 ft diameter circle. Not that hard to figure out doing it from above.
But the Fly by is still key in any situation where your are sending your familiar into battle. Way too many times the ceiliing will be 10 ft tall which means a medium person standing on the ground can still hit a flying creature above them. Even without a low ceiling, the range of the spell is limited and anyone with a polearm + the feats
What if they’re 20 feet up, can they toast the heads of 5’+ creatures? Large creatures? What if they’re aiming down diagonally one square NE from 15’ height, what size effect on the 2D grid? What about two squares away?
D&D is a rather simplified combat system, and what we know about 5’ grids and spell effects doesn’t really equip us to (easily) draw or calculate 3D geometric effects. I’m not saying you’re wrong that a cone is a cone, just that the rules don’t really equip the DM with an elegant way to handle that, any more than they do the arc of arrows, inertia and acceleration, or even simultaneous movement of multiple bodies through space and time.
It’s a game that’s played on a grid, and flying combatants using complex geometric abilities which effect different z-levels differently based on height and angle are awkward.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
It would be the same thing as casting it horizontally at a number of creatures that are climbing a wall. The geometry doesn’t change just because the perspective does.
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I think a poll to determine what % of tables use a 5-foot grid vs. theater of mind would be illuminating. My suspicion is that a 5-foot grid is "optional" in the same way that feats and multiclassing are (i.e., not actually optional, but rather a given for nearly all tables), but I could be wrong!
It is funny to me that 4E so perfected the precision of grid based combat in D&D, and yet was maligned in part for being too gamey... only for grid combat to continue being the default approach to combat.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
4e was a well written system, well designed as board game, and about as balanced as such a thing can practically be. Its problem was that it didn't really fit people's concept of what D&D is.
If my players try to do that I will let them. And, of course, I will use it against them too!
What the PCs can do their opponents can do too!
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Thank you so much, that's exactly the information that I needed!
I'll be sure to include something that can target a flying familiar in all upcoming encounters :-)
Probably because it's breathing fire at you?