Alright, then what is the difference between Spellcasting and "the ability to cast at least one spell" (like in Spell Sniper). Would Racial Magic work for that case?
You see the confusion I'm having is that I can't find a definition of "Spellcasting". I see "spellcaster" in there. But if the exacting phrasing is "Spellcasting" and a racial trait needs to use components and has a spellcasting modifier, why doesn't it apply?
And, I am not arguing with you, I really do thank you for your answer. I'm just a little confused as to why something so simple isn't defined in black and white or why they just don't use the same terminology.
Here, if you are unfamiliar with basic concepts of the game like named class features, I suggest you check out the basic rules before you worry about optional rules like feats:
Get your feet wet before jumping in the deep end as it were. Lots of stuff should be clearer after you give that a once-over. If you still have questions after that we’ll all be happy to help.
Alright, then what is the difference between Spellcasting and "the ability to cast at least one spell" (like in Spell Sniper). Would Racial Magic work for that case?
You see the confusion I'm having is that I can't find a definition of "Spellcasting". I see "spellcaster" in there. But if the exacting phrasing is "Spellcasting" and a racial trait needs to use components and has a spellcasting modifier, why doesn't it apply?
And, I am not arguing with you, I really do thank you for your answer. I'm just a little confused as to why something so simple isn't defined in black and white or why they just don't use the same terminology.
Here, if you are unfamiliar with basic concepts of the game like named class features, I suggest you check out the basic rules before you worry about optional rules like feats:
Get your feet wet before jumping in the deep end as it were. Lots of stuff should be clearer after you give that a once-over. If you still have questions after that we’ll all be happy to help.
So I can find my answer in the rulebook? Thanks, I didn't think of that...
Alright, then what is the difference between Spellcasting and "the ability to cast at least one spell" (like in Spell Sniper). Would Racial Magic work for that case?
You see the confusion I'm having is that I can't find a definition of "Spellcasting". I see "spellcaster" in there. But if the exacting phrasing is "Spellcasting" and a racial trait needs to use components and has a spellcasting modifier, why doesn't it apply?
And, I am not arguing with you, I really do thank you for your answer. I'm just a little confused as to why something so simple isn't defined in black and white or why they just don't use the same terminology.
Here, if you are unfamiliar with basic concepts of the game like named class features, I suggest you check out the basic rules before you worry about optional rules like feats:
Get your feet wet before jumping in the deep end as it were. Lots of stuff should be clearer after you give that a once-over. If you still have questions after that we’ll all be happy to help.
So I can find my answer in the rulebook? Thanks, I didn't think of that...
Well, at least three different people (including myself) explained it on the last page for you too.
Spellcasting is a class feature given to Artificers, Bards, Clerics, Druids, Sorcerers, and Wizards at 1st level, to Rangers and Paladins at 2nd level, and to Arcane Tricksters and Eldritch Knights at 3rd level. It is defined differently for each class as it works differently for each class. It is the actual name of the class feature, much like Pact Magic is the name of the class feature given to Warlocks at 1st level and to Profane Souls at 3rd level. It is defined as a class feature listed by name. A racial trait that grants spells and uses a spellcasting ability modifier (like a Tiefling’s Infernal Legacy trait) is not the same thing.
Is a Tiefling trait named “Infernal Legacy” a feature named “Spellcasting?” No.
Is a High Elf trait named “Cantrip” a feature named “Spellcasting?” No.
Is a Water Genasi trait named “Call of the Wave” a feature named “Spellcasting?” No.
Is a Sorcerer feature named “Spellcasting” a feature named “Spellcasting?” Yes.
Yes, racial magic works with Spell Sniper because Spell Sniper only requires “the ability to cast at least one spell.” Magic Initiate does not work with racial magic because it requires either the “Spellcasting or Pact Magic feature.”
Spellcasting is the name of a feature that is given to certain classes often, but not always, at level 1. Every class that has spellcasting will have this feature listed in their class features chart.
And classes which cast spells without this feature (such as a Way of Shadows or Four Elements Monk) are not "spellcasters," because they lack that named feature.
Alright, then what is the difference between Spellcasting and "the ability to cast at least one spell" (like in Spell Sniper). Would Racial Magic work for that case?
You see the confusion I'm having is that I can't find a definition of "Spellcasting". I see "spellcaster" in there. But if the exacting phrasing is "Spellcasting" and a racial trait needs to use components and has a spellcasting modifier, why doesn't it apply?
And, I am not arguing with you, I really do thank you for your answer. I'm just a little confused as to why something so simple isn't defined in black and white or why they just don't use the same terminology.
It's a feature named Spellcasting. Every class in the game except for Barbarian, Monk, Fighter, Rogue, Paladin, Ranger, and Warlock gets it at level 1. Paladins and Rangers get it at level 2. Eldritch Knight Fighter and Arcane Trickster Rogue get it at level 3. Barbarians, Monks, and Warlocks never get it, not even with subclasses. In all cases, the class or subclass tells you when you get it, and names it by name.
My issue is that in the rulebook is says "Prerequisite: Spellcasting or Pact Magic feature" it's not "Prerequisite: THE Spellcasting or Pact Magic feature"
or "Prerequisite: Spellcasting feature or Pact Magic feature".
I'm just trying to catch a loophole since spellcasting is a verb, not a noun. And there's no clear definition of the term spellcasting such as "Spellcasting - the act of casting a spell through class features or magical items"
I don't think that it was an unreasonable question to ask. Not all features refer to spellcasting the same way, so sometimes it's a bit of a fuzzy line whether a feature is looking for Spellcasting or ability to cast spells:
Feats like Aberrant Dragonmark, or various racial abilities provide you ways to cast spells, and tell you that "your spellcasting ability [score]" is X. In a vacuum, I wouldn't usually call it unreasonable to say that a "spellcaster" is a creature that has a "spellcasting ability score" and "can cast" spells!
Feats like Elemental Adept and Spell Sniper have a prerequisite of "the ability to cast at least one spell". (minus points to the authors for using "ability" in a way that isn't "ability score", further muddying waters, jeez).
The Magic Initiate, Artificer Initiate, and Ritual Caster feats go even further to associate the newfound ability to cast spells with a specific spellcasting class as "the class you chose"... not unreasonable (in a vacuum) to think that you might for all intents and purposes be a "spellcaster" if a Wizard is a "spellcaster" and you have Magic Initiate (Wizard)!
But feats like Metamagic Adept have a fairly specific prerequisite of capital-S "Spellcasting or Pact Magic feature", which should be read to mean that specific named feature, not just as 'a feature that lets you do spellcasting.' Easy mistake to make there!
Magic Items like the Lamannian Oak Focus provide benefits to "spellcasters" in general. Is that someone with the named feature, or someone who can cast spells.... hmmm!
I think that the decision to word Spell Sniper as "ability to cast at least one spell" (which is confusing with "spellcasting ability [score]"), instead of something more 5E-terminology-correct like "a feature with allows you to cast at least one spell" was probably specifically to creature further distance between that and the "Spellcasting feature". Still definitely room for this jargon to be confusing, even after reading the basic rules.
Rule of thumb: when you see "Spellcasting" capitalized, always read that as the named class feature. If you see "spellcasting" in lowercase... it's probably just the general ability to cast spells in some way or another.
I think that the decision to word Spell Sniper as "ability to cast at least one spell" (which is confusing with "spellcasting ability [score]"), instead of something more 5E-terminology-correct like "a feature with allows you to cast at least one spell" was probably specifically to creature further distance between that and the "Spellcasting feature". Still definitely room for this jargon to be confusing, even after reading the basic rules.
It would have to say “a feature or trait that allows you….”
And for the record, I was being super polite and providing detailed explanations and helpful links until you snarked at me. And even then, I got snarky back but still went out of my way to go fetch you all the relevant links. But I’m the jerk?
You know what, you're right. After re-reading everything you wrote, I realized I was being overly sensitive to the wording and took it the wrong way. I'm sorry I was being an ass.
My issue is that in the rulebook is says "Prerequisite: Spellcasting or Pact Magic feature" it's not "Prerequisite: THE Spellcasting or Pact Magic feature"
or "Prerequisite: Spellcasting feature or Pact Magic feature".
I'm just trying to catch a loophole since spellcasting is a verb, not a noun. And there's no clear definition of the term spellcasting such as "Spellcasting - the act of casting a spell through class features or magical items"
Can a Champion Fighter take Magic initiate at lvl 4 and then take Eldritch Adept later?
Yes, they can take the Feat. Now they are able to cast spells.
Yes, they can take Eldritch Adept later.
The way I look at it, what they are doing is borrowing the abilities to do things, and that's why when they use them, the have the same limitations.
No. It doesn’t matter “that they can cast spells.” The Magic Initiate feat does not give them the Spellcasting class feature. Since they do not have the Spellcasting class feature, and since they do not have the Pact Magic feature, they cannot take the Eldritch Adept feat. An Eldritch Knight could take the Eldritch Adept feat at 4th level. But a Champion could not take the Eldritch Adept feat unles they took at least 1 level in Artificer, Bard, Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer, Warlock, or Wizard, at least two levels in either Paladin or Ranger, or at least three levels in Rogue to get the Arcane Trickster subclass to pick up the Spellcasting feature,, or the Blood Hunter to take the Profane Soul subclass for the Pact Magic feature.
”The ability to cast spells” is absolutely irrelevant. It requires the “Spellcasting or Pact Magic feature.” Without one of those two features, the Eldritch Adept feat cannot be taken.
To extend quindraco’s metaphor, the Eldritch Adept feat says “to draw this feat requires a Red or Blue crayon.” And the champion with the Magic Initiate feat is like: “I got my cousin’s friend’s sister’s berry blush lipgloss, that counts right?” And Eldritch Adept is all like: “no.”
My issue is that in the rulebook is says "Prerequisite: Spellcasting or Pact Magic feature" it's not "Prerequisite: THE Spellcasting or Pact Magic feature"
or "Prerequisite: Spellcasting feature or Pact Magic feature".
I'm just trying to catch a loophole since spellcasting is a verb, not a noun. And there's no clear definition of the term spellcasting such as "Spellcasting - the act of casting a spell through class features or magical items"
Entirely irrelevant to the actual thread, but since this is my jam, it’s actually a bit more complicated (and exciting!) than that.
”Spellcasting” (in this context) is a gerund; that is, a form of the verb being used nominally (as a noun). But, it’s being used as an attributive noun; that is, a noun being used adjectivally to further specify or limit another noun.
The upshot is that it’s not just an adjective. It’s a verb that’s being used as a noun that’s being used as an adjective, and I just love that so much.
Does that provide any insight about what lower-case-"spellcaster" means when its occasionally found on magic items providing special bonuses/restrictions for "spellcasters"? I think at this point we're all on the same page that "Spellcasting feature" means "those class features that are specifically named "Spellasting" ", but I'm still a bit on the fence about whether plain english would dictate that a "spellcaster" is "a character with a Spellcasting feature" (maybe some support for that to be found in PHB Chapter 6 when it talks about "spellcasting classes"?), or just "a character who can cast spells."
Here, if you are unfamiliar with basic concepts of the game like named class features, I suggest you check out the basic rules before you worry about optional rules like feats:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules
Get your feet wet before jumping in the deep end as it were. Lots of stuff should be clearer after you give that a once-over. If you still have questions after that we’ll all be happy to help.
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So I can find my answer in the rulebook? Thanks, I didn't think of that...
Well, at least three different people (including myself) explained it on the last page for you too.
But yeah, you can find it in the rulebook too:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/classes/artificer#Spellcasting-1131501
https://www.dndbeyond.com/classes/bard#Spellcasting-74
https://www.dndbeyond.com/classes/cleric#Spellcasting-108
https://www.dndbeyond.com/classes/druid#Spellcasting-166
https://www.dndbeyond.com/classes/paladin#Spellcasting-263
https://www.dndbeyond.com/classes/ranger#Spellcasting-297
https://www.dndbeyond.com/classes/sorcerer#Spellcasting-369
https://www.dndbeyond.com/classes/wizard#Spellcasting-410
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules/spellcasting
And you can find it by simple search:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/search?q=Spellcasting
I hope that helps.
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[REDACTED]
My issue is that in the rulebook is says "Prerequisite: Spellcasting or Pact Magic feature" it's not "Prerequisite: THE Spellcasting or Pact Magic feature"
or "Prerequisite: Spellcasting feature or Pact Magic feature".
I'm just trying to catch a loophole since spellcasting is a verb, not a noun. And there's no clear definition of the term spellcasting such as "Spellcasting - the act of casting a spell through class features or magical items"
But yeah, I'll find it in the rulebook.
I don't think that it was an unreasonable question to ask. Not all features refer to spellcasting the same way, so sometimes it's a bit of a fuzzy line whether a feature is looking for Spellcasting or ability to cast spells:
I think that the decision to word Spell Sniper as "ability to cast at least one spell" (which is confusing with "spellcasting ability [score]"), instead of something more 5E-terminology-correct like "a feature with allows you to cast at least one spell" was probably specifically to creature further distance between that and the "Spellcasting feature". Still definitely room for this jargon to be confusing, even after reading the basic rules.
Rule of thumb: when you see "Spellcasting" capitalized, always read that as the named class feature. If you see "spellcasting" in lowercase... it's probably just the general ability to cast spells in some way or another.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
In D&D “Spellcasting” is a noun.
And in English, “Prerequisite: Spellcasting or Pact Magic feature.” = “Prerequisite: The Spellcasting feature or the Pact Magic feature.”
What you’re not understanding is four people telling you that there is no loophole.
But good luck with yer struggles chummer. I hope the links I provided for you are helpful.
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It would have to say “a feature or trait that allows you….”
Races give “traits,” not “features.”
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And for the record, I was being super polite and providing detailed explanations and helpful links until you snarked at me. And even then, I got snarky back but still went out of my way to go fetch you all the relevant links. But I’m the jerk?
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You know what, you're right. After re-reading everything you wrote, I realized I was being overly sensitive to the wording and took it the wrong way. I'm sorry I was being an ass.
Spellcasting is a noun in general, not a verb. In this case it's neither - it's an adjective, in the same way "Toyota" is normally a noun, but in "Toyota Camry" it's an adjective modifying Camry. "Spellcasting or Pact Magic feature" is grammatically identical to "red or blue crayon".
No blood no foul.
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It has been brought to my attention that I am in fact a jerk. I apologize for being a jerk. I was wrong.
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Can a Champion Fighter take Magic initiate at lvl 4 and then take Eldritch Adept later?
The way I look at it, what they are doing is borrowing the abilities to do things, and that's why when they use them, the have the same limitations.
<Insert clever signature here>
No. It doesn’t matter “that they can cast spells.” The Magic Initiate feat does not give them the Spellcasting class feature. Since they do not have the Spellcasting class feature, and since they do not have the Pact Magic feature, they cannot take the Eldritch Adept feat. An Eldritch Knight could take the Eldritch Adept feat at 4th level. But a Champion could not take the Eldritch Adept feat unles they took at least 1 level in Artificer, Bard, Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer, Warlock, or Wizard, at least two levels in either Paladin or Ranger, or at least three levels in Rogue to get the Arcane Trickster subclass to pick up the Spellcasting feature,, or the Blood Hunter to take the Profane Soul subclass for the Pact Magic feature.
”The ability to cast spells” is absolutely irrelevant. It requires the “Spellcasting or Pact Magic feature.” Without one of those two features, the Eldritch Adept feat cannot be taken.
To extend quindraco’s metaphor, the Eldritch Adept feat says “to draw this feat requires a Red or Blue crayon.” And the champion with the Magic Initiate feat is like: “I got my cousin’s friend’s sister’s berry blush lipgloss, that counts right?” And Eldritch Adept is all like: “no.”
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RAW? No. As a DM, I’d allow it though.
Entirely irrelevant to the actual thread, but since this is my jam, it’s actually a bit more complicated (and exciting!) than that.
”Spellcasting” (in this context) is a gerund; that is, a form of the verb being used nominally (as a noun). But, it’s being used as an attributive noun; that is, a noun being used adjectivally to further specify or limit another noun.
The upshot is that it’s not just an adjective. It’s a verb that’s being used as a noun that’s being used as an adjective, and I just love that so much.
A lot of that grammar stuff is over my head :)
Does that provide any insight about what lower-case-"spellcaster" means when its occasionally found on magic items providing special bonuses/restrictions for "spellcasters"? I think at this point we're all on the same page that "Spellcasting feature" means "those class features that are specifically named "Spellasting" ", but I'm still a bit on the fence about whether plain english would dictate that a "spellcaster" is "a character with a Spellcasting feature" (maybe some support for that to be found in PHB Chapter 6 when it talks about "spellcasting classes"?), or just "a character who can cast spells."
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.