The Ballista (a large mounted crossbow on a warship) is listed with a +6 to hit. Would you add to that if you character had weapon proficiency? Simple or Martial? Or since it is technically an object and neither a simple or martial weapon, would you never add proficiency?
Perhaps a Siege Weapon proficiency? If not you would run into the problem of your sailor suddenly being unable to shoot a ballista well when it gets moved from the ship and mounted atop a tower. Siege Weapons could include ballista, skorpions, trebuchet, various other types of catapults, and perhaps even archaic mortars or cannons if your world invents them.
There is no siege weapon proficiency. Due to their design, they don't require proficiency to operate. Instead they have a flat +6 to hit, take one action to load, a second action to aim, and a third action to fire.
There is no siege weapon proficiency. Due to their design, they don't require proficiency to operate. Instead they have a flat +6 to hit, take one action to load, a second action to aim, and a third action to fire.
This, bottom line. Others are overthinking the intended interaction. Siege weapons don't exist as a form of weapon that a player character can specialize in. It is not intended for any player in any campaign to treat these kinds of objects as normal-use adventuring weapons like a Shortsword.
These types of objects have specific parameters for usage. +6 to hit, full stop.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Sorry, it doesn't make sense to me that you are required to have proficiency to gain a bonus when using a Club (Simple Weapon Proficiency) but, anyone automatically gains a set bonus when using a ballista, catapult, or trebuchet, which are much, much more complex. Posters understood there is no such Siege Weapon proficiency we were discussing possible homebrew solutions for those that agree it's a problem.
Give the Siege Weapons proficiency to some backgrounds? Soldier, Marine, Pirate, and Sailor are granted the Siege Weapons proficiency?
If you don't like that route and want to use the base +6 of RAW, then I would suggest a Siege Weapons Feat to be able to operate them without automatic Disadvantage.
Sorry, it doesn't make sense to me that you are required to have proficiency to gain a bonus when using a Club (Simple Weapon Proficiency) but, anyone automatically gains a set bonus when using a ballista, catapult, or trebuchet, which are much, much more complex.
To design & construct? Yes. To operate? No. Operating instructions for firing these things are basically just "aim, and pull the lever." These things are all made to be about as straight-forward as possible to operate.
There's no room for flair & skill in operating siege weaponry. You really can't become "proficient" at pulling a lever. The machine is doing all the work; you just point, and set the process in motion.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
To design & construct? Yes. To operate? No. Operating instructions for firing these things are basically just "aim, and pull the lever." These things are all made to be about as straight-forward as possible to operate.
There's no room for flair & skill in operating siege weaponry. You really can't become "proficient" at pulling a lever. The machine is doing all the work; you just point, and set the process in motion.
I do not agree with this. Any weapon system becomes better with practice and training. They can reload faster, know their markers and ranges, anticipate commands, learn how kentucky windage and other environmental factors affect that particular type of ammo, dropoff, flight time for leading targets, fix jams and other malfunctions, proper maintenance. There are dozens of learned skills that will help make a weapon, regardless of the size or complexity, more effective. Even more so for super large weapons like trebuchets and other crewed weapons where teamwork comes into play. Efficient teamwork only comes with training.
There is no siege weapon proficiency. Due to their design, they don't require proficiency to operate. Instead they have a flat +6 to hit, take one action to load, a second action to aim, and a third action to fire.
HeathSmith & Kotath: there is nothing that can be said to alter the fact of this being how siege weapons operate in Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition.
There is an alternate subforums for the discussion of how you would like to homebrew them to work in your campaigns.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Sorry, it doesn't make sense to me that you are required to have proficiency to gain a bonus when using a Club (Simple Weapon Proficiency) but, anyone automatically gains a set bonus when using a ballista, catapult, or trebuchet, which are much, much more complex.
To design & construct? Yes. To operate? No. Operating instructions for firing these things are basically just "aim, and pull the lever." These things are all made to be about as straight-forward as possible to operate.
There's no room for flair & skill in operating siege weaponry. You really can't become "proficient" at pulling a lever. The machine is doing all the work; you just point, and set the process in motion.
Having been in artillery and having lots of personal experience with what is known as indirect fire weapons like grenade launchers I will have to agree with Sturn.
"These things are all made to be about as straight-forward as possible to operate."
- Umm...no. Have you ever operated a catapult? I have. Even the "simple" ones require a skill base much higher than the skill base required to swing a sword around.
"You really can't become "proficient" at pulling a lever. The machine is doing all the work; you just point, and set the process in motion."
- I would really love to see someone say this to a Marine Corps Rifle Expert. Or a Recon Sniper.
Devil's advocate time now:
I understand why they did the flat +6 for things like this in-game. It is just a balance issue.
Time to break that balance:
RAW there is no size limit to what kind of weapon you bond with as an Eldritch Knight. Make one of them a ballista on a tripod platform :)
Even better go Warlock with Improved Pact Weapon. Then you do get to add your proficiency bonus as per the blade pact "You are proficient with it while you wield it."
So yeah gaps like that will have to be homebrewed and hopefully be reasonable or errata added to things like Eldritch Knight and Pact of the Blade.
Can we now get really pedantic about what is a "weapon"? I can't wait for someone to say a ballista is not a weapon.
HeathSmith & Kotath: there is nothing that can be said to alter the fact of this being how siege weapons operate in Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition.
There is an alternate subforums for the discussion of how you would like to homebrew them to work in your campaigns.
pretty sure that's what i said in the first reply. also, your entire reply in #11 starts with your own homebrew with your declaration that designing and constructing requires proficiency - and then you follow it with just a bunch of assumptions and interpretations. when your telling others to stick to rules, you might want to stick to rules....all imo of course.
RAW there is no size limit to what kind of weapon you bond with as an Eldritch Knight. Make one of them a ballista on a tripod platform :)
Even better go Warlock with Improved Pact Weapon. Then you do get to add your proficiency bonus as per the blade pact "You are proficient with it while you wield it."
True, but RAW siege equipment aren't weapons, they're objects that can make attacks. That's why they have a fixed to hit and damage modifier, armor class, and hit points. The attack part is actually a subset of the object called bolt.
This is also part of the reason why you can't, mechanically, have proficiency with siege equipment, they're not a class of item unto themselves. Weapons are, well, weapons. They have a table and classifications, a longsword has three subclasses of item; Marial Melee Weapon. You can have proficiency in vehicles for the same reason, vehicle is a subclass of object, a Galley for example is a gargantuan vehicle.
Siege equipment possesses no subclass of item, they're just 'Large Object' and you can't have proficiency with 'large objects' (in fact, some are huge or even gargantuan objects, so you'd need to have proficiency with 'objects')
An anecdotal description of why the factual game mechanic makes some sense is not home brew. Home brew would be trying to develop a game mechanic out of your perception of how it should work.
Heath, I do apologize for skipping over your initial post. We both agree. That's my bad.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
The Ballista (a large mounted crossbow on a warship) is listed with a +6 to hit. Would you add to that if you character had weapon proficiency? Simple or Martial? Or since it is technically an object and neither a simple or martial weapon, would you never add proficiency?
I believe that +6 to hit is supposed to represent some random red shirt from the crew using the Balista.
An anecdotal description of why the factual game mechanic makes some sense is not home brew. Home brew would be trying to develop a game mechanic out of your perception of how it should work.
Heath, I do apologize for skipping over your initial post. We both agree. That's my bad.
one of the things i really enjoy about this forum is that people actually apologize - me probably as much as anyone.
Thanks. DMG entries say nothing about proficiency either way. They say 'Most... need creatures to move them as well as load, aim and fire' but do not even specify humanoids, lol. Not a word about crew sizes or any such. Not sure that equates to them having only one man crews in 5e that require no actual skill or training.
as far as skill or training, the same rules apply as using any other weapon. (edit: TLDR at bottom)
as far as crew, imo, its pure DM discretion...ballista and mangonel crew sizes are implied in saltmarsh though, but the math is ridiculously inconsistent: look at a galley-
with 80 crew: fire 4 ballistas, fire 2 mangonels, AND move.
with <40 crew: you can do 2 of those 3.
with <20 crew: you can do 1 of those 3.
with <3 crew: can't do anything.
IMO, the design is extra flawed with that first breakpoint going from 80 to 40 and then from 40 to 20...but lets forget about the first bullet assuming that 80 crew capacity is max and includes the deck swabber and all its assistants...just compare bullets 2 and 3. Here, it takes 20 crew to man 4 ballistas or 2 mangonels....so 5 per ballista and 10 per mangonel.
with 30 crew: fire 1 ballista, fire 1 mangonel, AND move.
< 20 crew: do two of those.
< 10 crew, do 1 of those
<3 crew, do nothing
So here it suggests 10 crew per ballista and 10 per mangonel.
A warship its 5 per ballista. For a keelboat, it's only 2 people per ballista.
TLDR: so yeah, ballista crew is somewhere between 1 and 10 people...and yet they all fire at the same rate and do the same damage regardless of the crew size. :) so, imo, you can't really incorporate ballistas without some DM discretion to fill in the blanks.
Wow! Thanks for all the opinions, folks. I was hoping for maybe one or two responses but this is a wealth of perspectives, all so well thought out. I think I will let guys with martial weapons add p bonus only (not dex) onto the flat +6 if for no other reason than they are about to fight a giant sea creature WAAAAY above their level and I need something to even the odds. Also, I kind of agree with the idea that the 5th level fighters in the group would be better shots than the red shirt crew.
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-Andrew Bowler
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The Ballista (a large mounted crossbow on a warship) is listed with a +6 to hit. Would you add to that if you character had weapon proficiency? Simple or Martial? Or since it is technically an object and neither a simple or martial weapon, would you never add proficiency?
-Andrew Bowler
I think RAW you just don’t add a proficiency bonus. homebrew you could:
create a new weapon type and applicable proficiency- siege weapons .
say sailors, pirates, and soldiers can add their proficiency bonus to ballista.
call it a heavy crossbow variant
Guide to the Five Factions (PWYW)
Deck of Decks
Perhaps a Siege Weapon proficiency? If not you would run into the problem of your sailor suddenly being unable to shoot a ballista well when it gets moved from the ship and mounted atop a tower. Siege Weapons could include ballista, skorpions, trebuchet, various other types of catapults, and perhaps even archaic mortars or cannons if your world invents them.
There is no siege weapon proficiency. Due to their design, they don't require proficiency to operate. Instead they have a flat +6 to hit, take one action to load, a second action to aim, and a third action to fire.
Find my D&D Beyond articles here
I'd rather see a Barbarian being proficient with ballistas, whilst in an ambush... what could happen ??
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This, bottom line. Others are overthinking the intended interaction. Siege weapons don't exist as a form of weapon that a player character can specialize in. It is not intended for any player in any campaign to treat these kinds of objects as normal-use adventuring weapons like a Shortsword.
These types of objects have specific parameters for usage. +6 to hit, full stop.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Sorry, it doesn't make sense to me that you are required to have proficiency to gain a bonus when using a Club (Simple Weapon Proficiency) but, anyone automatically gains a set bonus when using a ballista, catapult, or trebuchet, which are much, much more complex. Posters understood there is no such Siege Weapon proficiency we were discussing possible homebrew solutions for those that agree it's a problem.
Give the Siege Weapons proficiency to some backgrounds? Soldier, Marine, Pirate, and Sailor are granted the Siege Weapons proficiency?
If you don't like that route and want to use the base +6 of RAW, then I would suggest a Siege Weapons Feat to be able to operate them without automatic Disadvantage.
To design & construct? Yes. To operate? No. Operating instructions for firing these things are basically just "aim, and pull the lever." These things are all made to be about as straight-forward as possible to operate.
There's no room for flair & skill in operating siege weaponry. You really can't become "proficient" at pulling a lever. The machine is doing all the work; you just point, and set the process in motion.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
I do not agree with this. Any weapon system becomes better with practice and training. They can reload faster, know their markers and ranges, anticipate commands, learn how kentucky windage and other environmental factors affect that particular type of ammo, dropoff, flight time for leading targets, fix jams and other malfunctions, proper maintenance. There are dozens of learned skills that will help make a weapon, regardless of the size or complexity, more effective. Even more so for super large weapons like trebuchets and other crewed weapons where teamwork comes into play. Efficient teamwork only comes with training.
Guide to the Five Factions (PWYW)
Deck of Decks
HeathSmith & Kotath: there is nothing that can be said to alter the fact of this being how siege weapons operate in Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition.
There is an alternate subforums for the discussion of how you would like to homebrew them to work in your campaigns.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Having been in artillery and having lots of personal experience with what is known as indirect fire weapons like grenade launchers I will have to agree with Sturn.
"These things are all made to be about as straight-forward as possible to operate."
- Umm...no. Have you ever operated a catapult? I have. Even the "simple" ones require a skill base much higher than the skill base required to swing a sword around.
"You really can't become "proficient" at pulling a lever. The machine is doing all the work; you just point, and set the process in motion."
- I would really love to see someone say this to a Marine Corps Rifle Expert. Or a Recon Sniper.
Devil's advocate time now:
I understand why they did the flat +6 for things like this in-game. It is just a balance issue.
Time to break that balance:
RAW there is no size limit to what kind of weapon you bond with as an Eldritch Knight. Make one of them a ballista on a tripod platform :)
Even better go Warlock with Improved Pact Weapon. Then you do get to add your proficiency bonus as per the blade pact "You are proficient with it while you wield it."
So yeah gaps like that will have to be homebrewed and hopefully be reasonable or errata added to things like Eldritch Knight and Pact of the Blade.
Can we now get really pedantic about what is a "weapon"? I can't wait for someone to say a ballista is not a weapon.
pretty sure that's what i said in the first reply. also, your entire reply in #11 starts with your own homebrew with your declaration that designing and constructing requires proficiency - and then you follow it with just a bunch of assumptions and interpretations. when your telling others to stick to rules, you might want to stick to rules....all imo of course.
Guide to the Five Factions (PWYW)
Deck of Decks
True, but RAW siege equipment aren't weapons, they're objects that can make attacks. That's why they have a fixed to hit and damage modifier, armor class, and hit points. The attack part is actually a subset of the object called bolt.
This is also part of the reason why you can't, mechanically, have proficiency with siege equipment, they're not a class of item unto themselves. Weapons are, well, weapons. They have a table and classifications, a longsword has three subclasses of item; Marial Melee Weapon. You can have proficiency in vehicles for the same reason, vehicle is a subclass of object, a Galley for example is a gargantuan vehicle.
Siege equipment possesses no subclass of item, they're just 'Large Object' and you can't have proficiency with 'large objects' (in fact, some are huge or even gargantuan objects, so you'd need to have proficiency with 'objects')
Find my D&D Beyond articles here
An anecdotal description of why the factual game mechanic makes some sense is not home brew. Home brew would be trying to develop a game mechanic out of your perception of how it should work.
Heath, I do apologize for skipping over your initial post. We both agree. That's my bad.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
I believe that +6 to hit is supposed to represent some random red shirt from the crew using the Balista.
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Hardcovers, DDB & You
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one of the things i really enjoy about this forum is that people actually apologize - me probably as much as anyone.
cheers and thanks
Guide to the Five Factions (PWYW)
Deck of Decks
page 255 DMG under siege equipment - and in saltmarsh as a lot of boats have them.
Guide to the Five Factions (PWYW)
Deck of Decks
They're in the Dungeon Master's Guide in chapter 8
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/dmg/running-the-game#SiegeEquipment
Find my D&D Beyond articles here
as far as skill or training, the same rules apply as using any other weapon. (edit: TLDR at bottom)
as far as crew, imo, its pure DM discretion...ballista and mangonel crew sizes are implied in saltmarsh though, but the math is ridiculously inconsistent: look at a galley-
IMO, the design is extra flawed with that first breakpoint going from 80 to 40 and then from 40 to 20...but lets forget about the first bullet assuming that 80 crew capacity is max and includes the deck swabber and all its assistants...just compare bullets 2 and 3. Here, it takes 20 crew to man 4 ballistas or 2 mangonels....so 5 per ballista and 10 per mangonel.
Looking at the sailing ship-
So here it suggests 10 crew per ballista and 10 per mangonel.
A warship its 5 per ballista. For a keelboat, it's only 2 people per ballista.
TLDR: so yeah, ballista crew is somewhere between 1 and 10 people...and yet they all fire at the same rate and do the same damage regardless of the crew size. :) so, imo, you can't really incorporate ballistas without some DM discretion to fill in the blanks.
Guide to the Five Factions (PWYW)
Deck of Decks
Wow! Thanks for all the opinions, folks. I was hoping for maybe one or two responses but this is a wealth of perspectives, all so well thought out. I think I will let guys with martial weapons add p bonus only (not dex) onto the flat +6 if for no other reason than they are about to fight a giant sea creature WAAAAY above their level and I need something to even the odds. Also, I kind of agree with the idea that the 5th level fighters in the group would be better shots than the red shirt crew.
-Andrew Bowler