The exhaustion levels for using the Beserker Barbarian's frenzied rage are terribly punishing. This is especially true compared to other Barb subclasses. No other subclass offers a punishment for using a class ability, and certainly not one that can keep hurting after a long rest.
So here is my solution: let your Beserker Barbarian rest off all that exhaustion each long rest.
This will remove the compounding punishment that makes it hard to even use the class ability, while still having some kind of short term drawback thematically.
The fix I came up with for the berserker is to trade the exhaustion penalty for always on reckless attack. attacking recklessly and uncontrollably fits the theme of the berserker. It makes use of the base classes feature while also being a bit detrimental.
the berserker will probably take substantially more damage, but this can be mitigated by party resource management. This is not the case with exhaustion.
I haven’t play-tested it yet, but I think it would work appropriately. It may well be easier to run for both the player AND the DM.
Yeah, every once in a while I look at Berserker and think "A level of exhaustion, huh, that's not so bad..." ... and then I realize, not only are you progressively sabotaging your own usefullness the more often you use it in a day, you're sabotaging your entire party. A reckless Berserker (and is there any other sort?) can easily leave their party effectively a man short unless they knuckle under and take 2 or 3 days off of adventuring to let you catch your breath. That's not fun for you, or for them, and sets up resentment and infighting in the party that no other class risks.
The 10th level feature is useless, the 6th and 14th are ok at best, and the 3rd... can only really be used once per day, and if used, sabotages every non-combat encounter you participate in for the rest of the day, or even actively ends your party's adventuring day at worst?
Absolutely unjustifiable, picking Berserker means not picking a subclass at all.
I also passed on this subclass for these reasons. If you have a buddy with spare spell slots(unlikely) to cast Greater Restoration on you, it's all good. LOL.
Greater Restoration also only does away with one level exhaustion, so even if you work out a deal to get a buddy to give up a spell slot you are still restricted to 2 frenzies a day.
Starting when you choose this path at 3rd level, you can go into a frenzy when you rage. If you do so, for the duration of your rage you gain an additional action on each of your turns. That action can be used only to take the Attack (one melee weapon attack only) action. When your rage ends, you must succeed on a DC 10 Constitution saving throw or suffer one level of exhaustion. Each time you use this feature after the first, the DC increases by 5. When you finish a short or long rest, the DC resets to 10.
I feel the above keeps the overall theme of frenzy (pushing the limits) while not being overly harsh. It also opens up the idea of a frenzied, two-weapon fighting barbarian.
I find the issue with Berserker is not the exhaustion from Frenzy; it is supposed to be punishing, as you always have the option of just using regular Rage. I.e., I see the design intent as forcing the player to think tactically, and not just use Frenzy all day e'ry day.
The problem is that Frenzy isn't good enough. High risk requires high reward. All you get is that BA attack, and it's not like there aren't tons of BAs a Martial character can get which don't run the risk of flat-out killing you for using it... I like the concept of Frenzy providing additional opportunities to make an attack, but why does it have to be a BA? Make it Extra Attack (2). Fighters still go higher.
At minimum, Frenzy should provide a further increase of Rage damage, and suffer 1 level of exhaustion when it ends. At level 11, upgrade to Extra Attack (2) while under the effects of Frenzy.
[edit] I also don't see why Frenzy doesn't have clause stating "You ignore the effects of Exhaustion while under the effect of Frenzy." That's a total no-brainer. Without that, no player in their right mind would ever take the risk of reaching 3 or more levels of exhaustion. There's zero reward involved with Frenzy at that point.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Even if it was well-balanced, there's still no other class that asks its player to make those sorts of sacrifices (let alone sacrifices that affect the whole party). I don't care how well you balanced it, it could say "while raging using Frenzy, you attack four times per attack action, and enemies have vulnerability to all of your attacks" and Frenzy still wouldn't be worth sabotaging your party over.
Berskerker needs a nice consistent bonus that they can receive every time they rage 3-5 times per day, just like every other subclass gets. Something which doesn't involve Exhaustion, or any other negative penalty.
Berskerker needs a nice consistent bonus that they can receive every time they rage 3-5 times per day, just like every other subclass gets. Something which doesn't involve Exhaustion, or any other negative penalty.
Or at least any strong lasting penalty. There is actually another effect that has a built-in "You get tired after doing this" -- Haste -- but its after-effects are quite transitory.
The problem is that an extra attack with no penalties, at level 3, is a bit too strong. Could make it once per rage.
Berskerker needs a nice consistent bonus that they can receive every time they rage 3-5 times per day, just like every other subclass gets. Something which doesn't involve Exhaustion, or any other negative penalty.
Or at least any strong lasting penalty. There is actually another effect that has a built-in "You get tired after doing this" -- Haste -- but its after-effects are quite transitory.
The problem is that an extra attack with no penalties, at level 3, is a bit too strong. Could make it once per rage.
Yeah, but the issue there is that one extra attack per rage won't stack up to the benefits other subclasses get at level 3. Its hard to make it level out. Maybe it could just be for one rage duration, and scale up to 2 or 3 by the late game? That way its a powerful effect for one combat, but then its spent. I think that is what they were originally aiming for with the exhaustion levels, but in a backwards kind of way that kind of left further use on the table.
Berskerker needs a nice consistent bonus that they can receive every time they rage 3-5 times per day, just like every other subclass gets. Something which doesn't involve Exhaustion, or any other negative penalty.
Or at least any strong lasting penalty. There is actually another effect that has a built-in "You get tired after doing this" -- Haste -- but its after-effects are quite transitory.
The problem is that an extra attack with no penalties, at level 3, is a bit too strong. Could make it once per rage.
Yeah, but the issue there is that one extra attack per rage won't stack up to the benefits other subclasses get at level 3. Its hard to make it level out. Maybe it could just be for one rage duration, and scale up to 2 or 3 by the late game? That way its a powerful effect for one combat, but then its spent. I think that is what they were originally aiming for with the exhaustion levels, but in a backwards kind of way that kind of left further use on the table.
Could change its effect with level, similar to storm aura (not that any of those effects are super strong). Maybe 1+level/5 times per rage.
Having a Berserker without any negative effects of Frenzy is no longer a Berserker... that's the whole point of the class concept--when you Frenzy, you're pushing your body to the point of damaging itself. The legacy Frenzied Berserker prestige class used to have an AC penalty and lose HP every round while active. That's in addition to losing the ability to do almost any type of action other than attacking, and severe penalties when it wears off (exhaustion).
A Berserker without negative effects is just a palette swap of other Barbarians.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
I personally see the benefit of Berserker's rage as the immunity to charm/fear effects while raging. To be fair, that turns on at level 6, not at level 3, and it's sad not to want to use Frenzy because of the penalty attached, but the level 6 ability is pretty nice.
To fix Frenzy, I might add a subclass ability allowing Berserkers to decrease their exhaustion level by one any time they take a short rest. I'd need to playtest it though.
I think the problem with Exhaustion is that it's just... not fun. It's an annoyance that makes your character bad at everything for a while. It's more bookkeeping that you have to keep track of, which I feel doesn't wholly work for the kind of person who wants to play as a barbarian. There are so many other ways to get a bonus action attack... I actually went Storm Herald in my latest game because it gives a simple bonus action attack... not a lot of damage, but I can use it comfortably every combat.
I think the problem with Exhaustion is that it's just... not fun.
I'm pretty generally unfond of the Exhaustion rules. Particularly the whole business of recovering only a single level per day (getting stabbed multiple times, sure, you'll be better tomorrow. Get tired, well, you're SOL).
I like the idea of a haste like penalty for one round, followed by a duration where some of the effects of exhaustion are present. There could be a rider that allows the player to forgo the haste penalty in exchange for a level of exhaustion. This leaves much of the penalty intact without it being overly harsh to the point of reducing the Berserker population to next to nothing.
I think the problem with Exhaustion is that it's just... not fun.
I'm pretty generally unfond of the Exhaustion rules. Particularly the whole business of recovering only a single level per day (getting stabbed multiple times, sure, you'll be better tomorrow. Get tired, well, you're SOL).
Your view is absolutely valid. I personally don't find any issues with Exhaustion as is, but that's not to say it can't be infinitely better than it currently is. :/
In general, the most probable scenarios where you gain Exhaustion levels are those where you're travelling (excessively) long distances per day, and where you're in a polluted environment for extended periods of time. That's right in line with the concept--you get exhausted pushing your body harder than normal, and when you are unable to get a peaceful/recuperative night of sleep--and written adventures (that I'm aware of) tend to use Exhaustion as a hazard in that way.
Except homebrew campaigns are what most people end up playing, so it's gonna be a mixed bag of how DMs run it... might never come up... might come up way too often... might come up in a way that doesn't make sense. I wouldn't be opposed to a future revision, should it occur.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
I think the problem with Exhaustion is that it's just... not fun.
I'm pretty generally unfond of the Exhaustion rules. Particularly the whole business of recovering only a single level per day (getting stabbed multiple times, sure, you'll be better tomorrow. Get tired, well, you're SOL).
It isn’t just “tired” though. Severe exhaustion IRL can take several days to recover from.
The exhaustion levels for using the Beserker Barbarian's frenzied rage are terribly punishing. This is especially true compared to other Barb subclasses. No other subclass offers a punishment for using a class ability, and certainly not one that can keep hurting after a long rest.
So here is my solution: let your Beserker Barbarian rest off all that exhaustion each long rest.
This will remove the compounding punishment that makes it hard to even use the class ability, while still having some kind of short term drawback thematically.
The fix I came up with for the berserker is to trade the exhaustion penalty for always on reckless attack. attacking recklessly and uncontrollably fits the theme of the berserker. It makes use of the base classes feature while also being a bit detrimental.
the berserker will probably take substantially more damage, but this can be mitigated by party resource management. This is not the case with exhaustion.
I haven’t play-tested it yet, but I think it would work appropriately. It may well be easier to run for both the player AND the DM.
Yeah, every once in a while I look at Berserker and think "A level of exhaustion, huh, that's not so bad..." ... and then I realize, not only are you progressively sabotaging your own usefullness the more often you use it in a day, you're sabotaging your entire party. A reckless Berserker (and is there any other sort?) can easily leave their party effectively a man short unless they knuckle under and take 2 or 3 days off of adventuring to let you catch your breath. That's not fun for you, or for them, and sets up resentment and infighting in the party that no other class risks.
The 10th level feature is useless, the 6th and 14th are ok at best, and the 3rd... can only really be used once per day, and if used, sabotages every non-combat encounter you participate in for the rest of the day, or even actively ends your party's adventuring day at worst?
Absolutely unjustifiable, picking Berserker means not picking a subclass at all.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
I also passed on this subclass for these reasons. If you have a buddy with spare spell slots(unlikely) to cast Greater Restoration on you, it's all good. LOL.
Greater Restoration also only does away with one level exhaustion, so even if you work out a deal to get a buddy to give up a spell slot you are still restricted to 2 frenzies a day.
I see two issues with Frenzy.
Therefore, I would reword Frenzy as such:
I feel the above keeps the overall theme of frenzy (pushing the limits) while not being overly harsh. It also opens up the idea of a frenzied, two-weapon fighting barbarian.
The easy change is something like "Suffer one level of exhaustion until you complete a short or long rest".
I find the issue with Berserker is not the exhaustion from Frenzy; it is supposed to be punishing, as you always have the option of just using regular Rage. I.e., I see the design intent as forcing the player to think tactically, and not just use Frenzy all day e'ry day.
The problem is that Frenzy isn't good enough. High risk requires high reward. All you get is that BA attack, and it's not like there aren't tons of BAs a Martial character can get which don't run the risk of flat-out killing you for using it... I like the concept of Frenzy providing additional opportunities to make an attack, but why does it have to be a BA? Make it Extra Attack (2). Fighters still go higher.
At minimum, Frenzy should provide a further increase of Rage damage, and suffer 1 level of exhaustion when it ends. At level 11, upgrade to Extra Attack (2) while under the effects of Frenzy.
[edit] I also don't see why Frenzy doesn't have clause stating "You ignore the effects of Exhaustion while under the effect of Frenzy." That's a total no-brainer. Without that, no player in their right mind would ever take the risk of reaching 3 or more levels of exhaustion. There's zero reward involved with Frenzy at that point.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Even if it was well-balanced, there's still no other class that asks its player to make those sorts of sacrifices (let alone sacrifices that affect the whole party). I don't care how well you balanced it, it could say "while raging using Frenzy, you attack four times per attack action, and enemies have vulnerability to all of your attacks" and Frenzy still wouldn't be worth sabotaging your party over.
Berskerker needs a nice consistent bonus that they can receive every time they rage 3-5 times per day, just like every other subclass gets. Something which doesn't involve Exhaustion, or any other negative penalty.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Or at least any strong lasting penalty. There is actually another effect that has a built-in "You get tired after doing this" -- Haste -- but its after-effects are quite transitory.
The problem is that an extra attack with no penalties, at level 3, is a bit too strong. Could make it once per rage.
Yeah, but the issue there is that one extra attack per rage won't stack up to the benefits other subclasses get at level 3. Its hard to make it level out. Maybe it could just be for one rage duration, and scale up to 2 or 3 by the late game? That way its a powerful effect for one combat, but then its spent. I think that is what they were originally aiming for with the exhaustion levels, but in a backwards kind of way that kind of left further use on the table.
Could change its effect with level, similar to storm aura (not that any of those effects are super strong). Maybe 1+level/5 times per rage.
Having a Berserker without any negative effects of Frenzy is no longer a Berserker... that's the whole point of the class concept--when you Frenzy, you're pushing your body to the point of damaging itself. The legacy Frenzied Berserker prestige class used to have an AC penalty and lose HP every round while active. That's in addition to losing the ability to do almost any type of action other than attacking, and severe penalties when it wears off (exhaustion).
A Berserker without negative effects is just a palette swap of other Barbarians.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
I personally see the benefit of Berserker's rage as the immunity to charm/fear effects while raging. To be fair, that turns on at level 6, not at level 3, and it's sad not to want to use Frenzy because of the penalty attached, but the level 6 ability is pretty nice.
To fix Frenzy, I might add a subclass ability allowing Berserkers to decrease their exhaustion level by one any time they take a short rest. I'd need to playtest it though.
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I think the problem with Exhaustion is that it's just... not fun. It's an annoyance that makes your character bad at everything for a while. It's more bookkeeping that you have to keep track of, which I feel doesn't wholly work for the kind of person who wants to play as a barbarian. There are so many other ways to get a bonus action attack... I actually went Storm Herald in my latest game because it gives a simple bonus action attack... not a lot of damage, but I can use it comfortably every combat.
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I'm pretty generally unfond of the Exhaustion rules. Particularly the whole business of recovering only a single level per day (getting stabbed multiple times, sure, you'll be better tomorrow. Get tired, well, you're SOL).
I like the idea of a haste like penalty for one round, followed by a duration where some of the effects of exhaustion are present. There could be a rider that allows the player to forgo the haste penalty in exchange for a level of exhaustion. This leaves much of the penalty intact without it being overly harsh to the point of reducing the Berserker population to next to nothing.
Your view is absolutely valid. I personally don't find any issues with Exhaustion as is, but that's not to say it can't be infinitely better than it currently is. :/
In general, the most probable scenarios where you gain Exhaustion levels are those where you're travelling (excessively) long distances per day, and where you're in a polluted environment for extended periods of time. That's right in line with the concept--you get exhausted pushing your body harder than normal, and when you are unable to get a peaceful/recuperative night of sleep--and written adventures (that I'm aware of) tend to use Exhaustion as a hazard in that way.
Except homebrew campaigns are what most people end up playing, so it's gonna be a mixed bag of how DMs run it... might never come up... might come up way too often... might come up in a way that doesn't make sense. I wouldn't be opposed to a future revision, should it occur.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
It isn’t just “tired” though. Severe exhaustion IRL can take several days to recover from.
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