I hope someone can help me out with an obscure question.
I am looking for a table that shows the Charisma abilities and their contested ability. I could swear there was a table in one of the sourcebooks but I cannot seem to locate it so I'm hoping someone may know what I'm talking about and where it is located.
Yeah, examples the Party was trying to convince the guards no trouble was going on even though the Rogue almost started a fight with five performers, another was a mage trying to convince a vender to lower the price on goods. Each of these had RP elements by the players.
I just keep seeing a table that had the following abilities
Deception
Intimidation
Persuasion
There was a second column core set of (maybe wisdom) abilities that are used as a contest for success. Maybe it is all Insight checks and I've made this table up.
Yeah, I don't have examples but I just keep seeing a table that had the following abilities
Deception
Intimidation
Persuasion
There was a second column core set of (maybe wisdom) abilities that are used as a contest for success. Maybe it is all Insight checks and I've made this table up.
This was actually just recently discussed at length in this thread:
The game doesn’t work like that. The actual abilities and skill proficiencies in play will be determined by the DM according to the situation.
A courtroom argument could be Charisma vs. Charisma, or Charisma vs. Intelligence, or anything else depending on how the characters are making their cases. Charisma (Deception) could be contested by Wisdom (Insight) if the suspicious party is trying to observe behaviors that indicate lying, but it could just as easily be contested by Intelligence (Investigation) if they’re trying to spot logical inconsistencies with someone’s story.
Yeah, examples the Party was trying to convince the guards no trouble was going on even though the Rogue almost started a fight with five performers, another was a mage trying to convince a vender to lower the price on goods. Each of these had RP elements by the players.
I just keep seeing a table that had the following abilities
Deception
Intimidation
Persuasion
There was a second column core set of (maybe wisdom) abilities that are used as a contest for success. Maybe it is all Insight checks and I've made this table up.
First, unless you are having the party try to influence another party member, you don't need to "contest" the rolls at all. In general, it's best to avoid any contested rolls wherever possible. Player actions should revolve around their chances of success.
Deception/Intimidation/Persuasion directed toward NPCs should just be a DC set by the DM. Set the DC according to what the situation is: what the PC is trying to accomplish, the NPCs temperament/disposition to the PC, whether the PC's argument is actually good or not, etc. You should be able to set a fixed DC, and just have the PC roll.
Second, Insight (Wisdom) is the relevant skill for detecting lies/influence. It's the all-around "something's not right here" skill.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Yeah, examples the Party was trying to convince the guards no trouble was going on even though the Rogue almost started a fight with five performers, another was a mage trying to convince a vender to lower the price on goods. Each of these had RP elements by the players.
I just keep seeing a table that had the following abilities
Deception
Intimidation
Persuasion
There was a second column core set of (maybe wisdom) abilities that are used as a contest for success. Maybe it is all Insight checks and I've made this table up.
First, unless you are having the party try to influence another party member, you don't need to "contest" the rolls at all. In general, it's best to avoid any contested rolls wherever possible. Player actions should revolve around their chances of success.
Deception/Intimidation/Persuasion directed toward NPCs should just be a DC set by the DM. Set the DC according to what the situation is: what the PC is trying to accomplish, the NPCs temperament/disposition to the PC, whether the PC's argument is actually good or not, etc. You should be able to set a fixed DC, and just have the PC roll.
Second, Insight (Wisdom) is the relevant skill for detecting lies/influence. It's the all-around "something's not right here" skill.
I disagree with that wholeheartedly which you will see by following the link to that other thread that I provided in my earlier post.
The game doesn’t work like that. The actual abilities and skill proficiencies in play will be determined by the DM according to the situation.
A courtroom argument could be Charisma vs. Charisma, or Charisma vs. Intelligence, or anything else depending on how the characters are making their cases. Charisma (Deception) could be contested by Wisdom (Insight) if the suspicious party is trying to observe behaviors that indicate lying, but it could just as easily be contested by Intelligence (Investigation) if they’re trying to spot logical inconsistencies with someone’s story.
I really like this because, it makes you think about alternative ways to figure out situations and problems.
Some other contests against Deception I could see as reasonable. A Noble is trying to play up the importance of his family in a large city like Waterdeep. The player makes a History check and unravels the lies.
The Vagabond claims no knowledge of your missing money pouch, he was just at the wrong place at the wrong time when you noticed it was missing. The player makes a Perception check and notices the nervous tick in the Vagabond's cheek as he talks, a bead of sweat rolls slowly from his temple, undermining his otherwise winning smile.
Sposta, I'm not sure what your point is? Maybe it's still too early for me, but I don't see how we disagree.
If it's a player v. player scenario, by all means make contested rolls. If it's a NPC v. player scenario, by all means make contested rolls. If it's a player v. NPC scenario? Why bother? Just set a DC for the player to beat based on their circumstances. That's standard.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Remember the scene in The Princess Bride when our hero Will first meets Fezzik when Fezzik threw the rock at him?
Will was running up at first, and then he slowed down and started to be more cautious. The DM determined that Will’s passive Perception (or maybe even insight because of his read on his enemies) tipped him off, so the DM told Will’s player, and Will’s player decided to start to sneak and actively be on the lookout for enemies. The DM calls for a Dexterity (Stealth) check, and either a Wisdom (Perception) check, or an Intelligence (Investigation) check.
Will’s player tells the DM the totals for both rolls and the DM could choose to either use Fezzik’s passive (Perception) and passive (Stealth), or could choose to roll both of those as opposed to Will’s rolls. Either way, Fezzik beat Will on both checks.
The DM determines that Fezzik has surprise on Will. Fezzik throws the big rock missing on purpose, so the DM decides that Fezzik is making an (Intimidation) check, but he’s using Strength instead of Charisma for the check due to the nature of the attempt. The DM tells Will’s player to roll a Wisdom (Insight) check to oppose Fezzik’s Intimidation. Will’s player rolls low, and the DM doesn’t.
Then the DM requires that Fezzik and Will make opposed Charisma checks and tells Will’s player that Fezzik is actually rather likable, and that Will can tell that Fezzik seems to like Will too.
Then we get to that part where Fezzik convinces Will to do a fistfight instead of with weapons. That’s where Fezzik makes a (Persuasion) check but because of the logical approach he is using, that Fezzik is making an Intelligence (Persuasion) check. Will’s player then has to make an Intelligence (Insight) check to see if there is any BS in Fezzik’s logic. Will’s player finally passes a check and determines that he probably has a better shot doing it Fezzik’s way.
Fezzik specifically decides to do nothing on his first turnand Will charges in and throws some unarmed strikes at the big guy. Fezzik just takes the hits and the DM uses that to make a Constitution (Intimidation) check for his second turn. Will then makes a Grapple attempt and fails, so the DM narrates it that Will hugs him and tries super hard but nada so Will releases the Grapple. There were some unarmed strikes from Fezzik, some Dodge actions from Will. There were some more Charisma checks back and forth during the fight. Fezzik tries a Charisma (Persuasion) to get Will to talk about the mask. Will passes a Charisma (Deception) check in opposition to it. Finally Will’s player has an idea.
He has Will make a Dexterity (Acrobatics) check to tumble under Fezzik and rolls a natural 20 + modifiers. Will’s player decides to burn an Action Surge to do another Grapple check. The DM determines that because of the super high (Acrobatics) roll, that Will can make this Grapple check using Dex (Acrobatics) instead of Strength (Athletics). This time it works, and he starts to suffocate Fezzik. Fezzik cannot break free and goes unconscious, but Will’s player makes sure to declare that he makes an Intelligence (Medicine) check to make sure Fezzik is stable before continuing the quest to save Buttercup from the clutches of the Mastermind Rogue, Vizzini.
Not sure what your point is? Maybe it's still too early for me, but I don't see how we disagree.
If it's a player v. player scenario, by all means make contested rolls. If it's a NPC v. player scenario, by all means make contested rolls. If it's a player v. NPC scenario? Why bother? Just set a DC for the player to beat based on their circumstances. That's standard.
It may be standard, but it is not required, and not necessarily how I do things.
Oh, okay. You're going way more in-depth than I was. You've got a major scene with a lot of things going on there, and mixing skills with different abilities than normal. That's 100% fine, and up to the DM.
I'm just saying there's no requirement for every type of skill check to be contested by something else, and more specifically with regard to conversation skills. Unless the DM specifically wants a contest, the default resolution is to just set a DC and go.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Oh, okay. You're going way more in-depth than I was. You've got a major scene with a lot of things going on there, and mixing skills with different abilities than normal. That's 100% fine, and up to the DM.
I'm just saying there's no requirement for every type of skill check to be contested by something else, and more specifically with regard to conversation skills. Unless the DM specifically wants a contest, the default resolution is to just set a DC and go.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
I do like the idea of being able to counter a Deception check with something other than Insight, which is the usual means of resolving these situations.
Wow, that thread IamSposta linked me to did have a lot going on it. I THINK I understand the points expressed and I will have to try applying some of the base logic to my next game.
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I hope someone can help me out with an obscure question.
I am looking for a table that shows the Charisma abilities and their contested ability. I could swear there was a table in one of the sourcebooks but I cannot seem to locate it so I'm hoping someone may know what I'm talking about and where it is located.
It depends entirely on the situation. If you describe exactly what’s happening, we can offer some suggestions about what the contest may be.
Yeah, examples the Party was trying to convince the guards no trouble was going on even though the Rogue almost started a fight with five performers, another was a mage trying to convince a vender to lower the price on goods. Each of these had RP elements by the players.
I just keep seeing a table that had the following abilities
Deception
Intimidation
Persuasion
There was a second column core set of (maybe wisdom) abilities that are used as a contest for success. Maybe it is all Insight checks and I've made this table up.
This was actually just recently discussed at length in this thread:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/dungeons-dragons-discussion/dungeon-masters-only/77804-should-nonmagical-social-skills-like-persuasion
It was discussed among other related things, but you’ll see that there is really no “wrong way” to do it. I hope you find it helpful.
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The game doesn’t work like that. The actual abilities and skill proficiencies in play will be determined by the DM according to the situation.
A courtroom argument could be Charisma vs. Charisma, or Charisma vs. Intelligence, or anything else depending on how the characters are making their cases. Charisma (Deception) could be contested by Wisdom (Insight) if the suspicious party is trying to observe behaviors that indicate lying, but it could just as easily be contested by Intelligence (Investigation) if they’re trying to spot logical inconsistencies with someone’s story.
Thanks for the link! Wow, there is a lot of information to digest I'll have to put up a fresh pot of coffee and dig in.
First, unless you are having the party try to influence another party member, you don't need to "contest" the rolls at all. In general, it's best to avoid any contested rolls wherever possible. Player actions should revolve around their chances of success.
Deception/Intimidation/Persuasion directed toward NPCs should just be a DC set by the DM. Set the DC according to what the situation is: what the PC is trying to accomplish, the NPCs temperament/disposition to the PC, whether the PC's argument is actually good or not, etc. You should be able to set a fixed DC, and just have the PC roll.
Second, Insight (Wisdom) is the relevant skill for detecting lies/influence. It's the all-around "something's not right here" skill.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
I disagree with that wholeheartedly which you will see by following the link to that other thread that I provided in my earlier post.
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I really like this because, it makes you think about alternative ways to figure out situations and problems.
Some other contests against Deception I could see as reasonable. A Noble is trying to play up the importance of his family in a large city like Waterdeep. The player makes a History check and unravels the lies.
The Vagabond claims no knowledge of your missing money pouch, he was just at the wrong place at the wrong time when you noticed it was missing. The player makes a Perception check and notices the nervous tick in the Vagabond's cheek as he talks, a bead of sweat rolls slowly from his temple, undermining his otherwise winning smile.
Sposta, I'm not sure what your point is? Maybe it's still too early for me, but I don't see how we disagree.
If it's a player v. player scenario, by all means make contested rolls. If it's a NPC v. player scenario, by all means make contested rolls. If it's a player v. NPC scenario? Why bother? Just set a DC for the player to beat based on their circumstances. That's standard.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
For convenience’s sake:
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It may be standard, but it is not required, and not necessarily how I do things.
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Oh, okay. You're going way more in-depth than I was. You've got a major scene with a lot of things going on there, and mixing skills with different abilities than normal. That's 100% fine, and up to the DM.
I'm just saying there's no requirement for every type of skill check to be contested by something else, and more specifically with regard to conversation skills. Unless the DM specifically wants a contest, the default resolution is to just set a DC and go.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Oh sure. But it’s not the only way to do it.
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Yeah, there are plenty of ways.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
I do like the idea of being able to counter a Deception check with something other than Insight, which is the usual means of resolving these situations.
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Wow, that thread IamSposta linked me to did have a lot going on it. I THINK I understand the points expressed and I will have to try applying some of the base logic to my next game.