In 5e. Using dual wielder feat to get non light one handed melee weapons and draw or stow two one handed weapons. Combined with Two Weapon Fighting Style to get dual Long Swords with added bonus modifier.
1) Does Rage work on the bonus attack? I think it does, but not sure with the rage wording.
2) Does Great Weapon Master Style work on long sword if not using the versatile damage die by using two hands? The technical wording makes it seem like it works, but the intention could have been otherwise, idk.
2.5) If it works, then does Great Weapon Master work for the bonus attack? (Same wording as question 1, so it should be the same answer given for question 1.)
Now for the main question, Dueling for +2 with dual wielder.
3) Do you have to have both weapons drawn during an attack in order to gain the bonus attack, or can you attack and then draw the second weapon to bonus attack with it?
4) Can you draw or stow at individual times? Such as draw with right hand the right long sword, attack with left short sword, then stow with left hand the left short sword?
4.5) Can you draw one and stow another at the same time?
The idea here is to attack with only one weapon drawn to get the +2 bonus, then draw the second weapon while stowing the first to attack for bonus only drawn to continue in getting +2 bonus.
Hopefully I explained this well enough. Thanks in advance!
1. Rage bonus is added two weapon fighting bonus action attack so long as the attack is made using strength. Rage takes a bonus action to activate so no benefit from the first round of combat.
2. & 2.5 You combined the names of the great weapon master feat and great weapon fighting style. These are two different game features though similar in name. I think your talking about the fighting style.
3. “Two-WEAPON FIGHTING When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you're HOLDING in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you're HOLDING in the other hand. You don't add your ability modifier to the damage of the bonus attack, unless that modifier is negative. If either weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon, instead of making a melee attack with it.”. you need to already be holding both weapons.
4. You can swap weapons at the same time, but as your not actually complying with the two weapon fighting rules of holding two weapons at the same time while attacking, you wouldn’t gain the ability to use your bonus action to attack using that feature.
it seems like your attempting to stack fighting styles and feats whose feature requirements and subsequent benefits are mutually exclusive.
all that being said... polearm master solves most of your issues. It allows the use of the dueling fighting style with a spear/quarterstaff to emulate two weapon fighting mechanically while also allowing the use of a shield. also potentially benefits from rage. Mitigates first bonus action list by giving a potential reaction opportunity attack when creatures enter your reach.
1. Rage bonus is added two weapon fighting bonus action attack so long as the attack is made using strength. Rage takes a bonus action to activate so no benefit from the first round of combat.
2. & 2.5 You combined the names of the great weapon master feat and great weapon fighting style. These are two different game features though similar in name. I think your talking about the fighting style.
3. “Two-WEAPON FIGHTING When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you're HOLDING in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you're HOLDING in the other hand. You don't add your ability modifier to the damage of the bonus attack, unless that modifier is negative. If either weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon, instead of making a melee attack with it.”. you need to already be holding both weapons.
4. You can swap weapons at the same time, but as your not actually complying with the two weapon fighting rules of holding two weapons at the same time while attacking, you wouldn’t gain the ability to use your bonus action to attack using that feature.
it seems like your attempting to stack fighting styles and feats whose feature requirements and subsequent benefits are mutually exclusive.
all that being said... polearm master solves most of your issues. It allows the use of the dueling fighting style with a spear/quarterstaff to emulate two weapon fighting mechanically while also allowing the use of a shield. also potentially benefits from rage. Mitigates first bonus action list by giving a potential reaction opportunity attack when creatures enter your reach.
1) Cool, thought it worked out that way.
2) For great weapon master fighting style, would it work for a long sword using 1d8 for dual wielding? (So not using its versatile 1d10). It says it needs versatile property, but doesn't say that you have to be using the versatile property of the versatile die for two hand fighting.
2.5) Assume its same as 1, which is good. (fighting style)
3) So if you are lvl 11 fighter, couldn't you just attack then bonus attack, stow one of the attack weapons, then extra attack twice with the remaining weapon to get a +2 bonus to the first and second extra attack? So a total of +4 damage from the Dueling Fighting Style.
4) If 3 works, then reverse it by attacking and then 1 extra attack with only one weapon drawn for the +4 total bonus (+2 for each individual attack). Then draw the second weapon. 2nd extra attack and then bonus attack while keeping both weapons out for +1 AC bonus.
4.5) This is a wash... sadly.
Maybe they aren't. Two weapon fighting style with duel wielder feat gets you a versatile weapon of long sword. Great weapon master works with versatile property weapon. Dueling works with a 1 hand weapon with none in other hand.
If this works, then dual wielder feat can be compared to pole arm master since the bonus action weapon has a higher hit die and extra attacks can give +2 damage for each extra attack that hits.
Sounds like the Rage bonus question is satisfied: Rage needs strength-based attacks, but doesn’t care if they’re attack action, bonus action, reaction, or whatever.
Great Weapon Fighting Style REQUIRES that the weapon be wielded with two hands AND that the weapon have Two-Handed or Versatile properties. A one-handed longsword (or two one-handed longswords being dual wielded) don’t satisfy the “wielded with two hands” requirement, so no to 2 and 2.5.
Bobby is correct that at least one attack in your attack action must be made WHILE wielding an offhand weapon, in order to trigger a bonus action attack with THAT offhand weapon. With Extra Attack, nothing stops you from making a first attack with only one main sword (+2 damage), then draw an offhand sword for free, then attack with main sword (no duelist +), then sheathe the main sword, then make a Bonus offhand sword attack (+2 damage). Works in reverse order too. It’s fiddly, and probably not worth the bookkeeping honestly, but technically works. It gets much fuzzier and more controversial if you start thinking about that same gimmick using improvised shield attacks as the offhand weapon ;)
There was someone that posted the other day that they tight Dual Wielder required both weapons be drawn simultaneously, not broken up as two separate free actions. That’s not the usual interpretation, and would seem to render it useless for many of the character builds that take it (dual wielding crossbow experts; multiclass spellcasters or gishes).
Sounds like the Rage bonus question is satisfied: Rage needs strength-based attacks, but doesn’t care if they’re attack action, bonus action, reaction, or whatever.
Great Weapon Fighting Style REQUIRES that the weapon be wielded with two hands AND that the weapon have Two-Handed or Versatile properties. A one-handed longsword (or two one-handed longswords being dual wielded) don’t satisfy the “wielded with two hands” requirement, so no to 2 and 2.5.
Bobby is correct that at least one attack in your attack action must be made WHILE wielding an offhand weapon, in order to trigger a bonus action attack with THAT offhand weapon. With Extra Attack, nothing stops you from making a first attack with only one main sword (+2 damage), then draw an offhand sword for free, then attack with main sword (no duelist +), then sheathe the main sword, then make a Bonus offhand sword attack (+2 damage). Works in reverse order too. It’s fiddly, and probably not worth the bookkeeping honestly, but technically works. It gets much fuzzier and more controversial if you start thinking about that same gimmick using improvised shield attacks as the offhand weapon ;)
There was someone that posted the other day that they tight Dual Wielder required both weapons be drawn simultaneously, not broken up as two separate free actions. That’s not the usual interpretation, and would seem to render it useless for many of the character builds that take it (dual wielding crossbow experts; multiclass spellcasters or gishes).
Wow, totally missed the two hand part with Great Weapon Fighting Style... Another wash, unless I wanted to attack, then stow, then bonus action attack, and then use both extra attacks with two hands. But I think I'll pass on this.
Although the +4 with extra attacks from Dueling Fighting style is nice.
Wow, totally missed the two hand part with Great Weapon Fighting Style... Another wash, unless I wanted to attack, then stow, then bonus action attack, and then use both extra attacks with two hands. But I think I'll pass on this.
Although the +4 with extra attacks from Dueling Fighting style is nice.
I'm not going to get into the whole mess of wrongness with the Two-Handed Style/Feat, but how exactly are you thinking that Dueling Fighting Style would ever apply to anything you're doing here?
Your entire premise is that you're using either two one-handed weapons, or one weapon held two-handed. Dueling is entirely incompatible with any of those setups.
When you are wielding a melee weapon in one hand and no other weapons, you gain a +2 bonus to damage rolls with that weapon.
Dueling only applies when you are wielding a singleone-handed melee weapon. You cannot hold any other weapons for this style to apply (a Shield does not count as a weapon). You cannot apply the damage bonus from this style while you are dual-wielding, nor can you apply it when you are holding a weapon with two hands. It's 100% out of the question.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Wow, totally missed the two hand part with Great Weapon Fighting Style... Another wash, unless I wanted to attack, then stow, then bonus action attack, and then use both extra attacks with two hands. But I think I'll pass on this.
Although the +4 with extra attacks from Dueling Fighting style is nice.
I'm not going to get into the whole mess of wrongness with the Two-Handed Style/Feat, but how exactly are you thinking that Dueling Fighting Style would ever apply to anything you're doing here?
Your entire premise is that you're using either two one-handed weapons, or one weapon held two-handed. Dueling is entirely incompatible with any of those setups.
When you are wielding a melee weapon in one hand and no other weapons, you gain a +2 bonus to damage rolls with that weapon.
Dueling only applies when you are wielding a singleone-handed melee weapon. You cannot hold any other weapons for this style to apply (a Shield does not count as a weapon). You cannot apply the damage bonus from this style while you are dual-wielding, nor can you apply it when you are holding a weapon with two hands. It's 100% out of the question.
Yea I agreed with Chicken Champ that Great Weapon Master Fighting Style was a misread. I saw versatility and not using two hands, so thinking that you could use a versatile weapon one handed; but you can't.
What I meant by the quote you referenced is that you could forget about Dueling Fighting Style and get Great Weapon Master Fighting style instead. So attack with two on handed weapons, stow one, then bonus attack, then do 2 extra attacks as a level 11 Fighter with two handed long sword's versatility damage die since you are using the Duel Wielder Feat and Two Weapon Fighting Style. So 1d8+5, 1d8+5, 1d10+5, and 1d10+5. (Str 20) So you are two weapon fighting and then changing stance to two handed one weapon fighting.
Instead of doing the above, I would rather do Dueling Fighting Style instead of Great Weapon Master Fighting Style since Dueling Fighting Style gives an auto +2 instead of rolling for it as a versatile weapon die with Great Weapon Master Fighting Style. Plus the bonus action can benefit. So 1d8+5, then stow one longsword, 1d8+5+2 bonus, then both extra attacks for 1d8+5+2 and 1d8+5+2. So you are two weapon fighting and then changing stance to one weapon one hand fighting.
Heck add Sneak Attack multiclass into the mix with 1 longsword and 1 short sword. Do short sword first for 1d6+5 which triggers Sneak Attack for Xd6, then stow it and do longsword for 1d8+5+2 for bonus and both extra attacks.
Okay, starting with two one-handed longswords and Extra Attack (1) and Dual Wielder and Two-Weapon Fighting Style and Dueling Fighting Style:
Attack Action: Sword1 for 1d8+5, triggers Two Weapon Fighting bonus action
Free Interaction: Sheathe Sword1
Bonus Action: Sword2 for 1d8+7
Remainder of Attack Action: Sword2 for 1d8+7
Free Ineraction: Re-draw Sword1 to set up next round
That works. It works in reverse as well, starting with only one sword in hand:
Attack Action: Sword1 for 1d8+7
Free Interaction: Draw Sword2
Remainder of Attack Action: Sword1 for 1d8+5, triggers Two Weapon Fighting bonus action
Free Interaction: Sheathe Sword1
Bonus Action: Sword2 for 1d8+7
Or, if you had Great Weapon Fighting Style instead of Dueling, you could blend that with Two-Weapon Fighting Style as well. Starting with two swords:
Attack Action: Sword1 for 1d8+5, triggers Two Weapon Fighting bonus action
Free Interaction: Sheathe Sword1
Bonus Action: Sword2 one-handed for 1d8+5 (probably debateable whether you're allowed to switch it to two-handed yet, may need to keep it one-handed for a moment as the weapon "in your other hand", but if not, make this a 1d10+5 reroll 1's and 2's)
Remainder of Attack Action: grab Sword2 with your free hand, two-handed Versatile attack for 1d10+5 reroll 1's and 2's.
Free Interaction: Draw Sword1 again.
Or in reverse, starting with just one sword in hand:
Attack Action: Sword1 for 1d10+5 reroll 1's and 2's
Free Interaction: let go with one hand, draw Sword2
Remainder of Attack Action: Sword1 for 1d8+5, triggers Two Weapon Fighting bonus action
Bonus Action: Sword2 for 1d8+5 (or arguably, 1d10+5 reroll 1's and 2's by sheathing Sword1 first)
Some people think that a fighting style requires you to stay in that style for the entirety of your turn, or the entirety of your attack action. That clearly is not the case... imagine you have Extra Attack, Dueling, and Archery fighting styles. Is there really an argument that you couldn't attack with the sword for 1d8+[Strength]+2, free action drop it and draw a longbow, and then attack with the longbow with +2 to hit? Nah, people just don't like draw/drop shenanigans.
Instead of doing the above, I would rather do Dueling Fighting Style instead of Great Weapon Master Fighting Style since Dueling Fighting Style gives an auto +2 instead of rolling for it as a versatile weapon die with Great Weapon Master Fighting Style. Plus the bonus action can benefit. So 1d8+5, then stow one longsword, 1d8+5+2 bonus, then both extra attacks for 1d8+5+2 and 1d8+5+2. So you are two weapon fighting and then changing stance to one weapon one hand fighting.
Okay, I see what you're trying to accomplish, but you're still misunderstanding how this works--you cannot benefit from Dueling while Two-Weapon Fighting, nor can you benefit from Two-Weapon Fighting while Dueling. The bonus action does not gain the benefit of Dueling.
Two-Weapon Fighting
When you take the Attack action and attack with a lightmelee weapon that you're holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different lightmelee weaponthat you're holding in the other hand. You don't add your ability modifier to the damage of the bonus attack, unless that modifier is negative.
You can't stow a weapon before taking the bonus action from Two-Weapon Fighting, or else you haven't fulfilled the requirements of TWF. You cannot take that bonus action without explicitly wielding two distinct one-handed weapons (Light weapons if you don't have the Dual Wielder feat). You can change things up after you've completed your bonus action.
A single-classed Fighter only ever learns a single Fighting Style through their level progression (unless you are taking the Champion Martial Archetype, and you only get one additional style at level 10), so let's start there. Which fighting style are you taking? Two-Weapon Style, or Dueling?
If you are taking the Two-Weapon Fighting Style, then (assuming you're also taking the Dual Wielder feat and have Extra Attack (2)) you could do:
1d8+5 mainhand -> 1d8+5 offhand (bonus action) -> stow one weapon -> 1d8+5 mainhand (whichever weapon you didn't stow is now 'mainhand') -> 1d8+5 mainhand
1d8+5 mainhand -> 1d8+5 offhand (bonus action) -> stow one weapon -> 1d10+5 two-handed (whichever Versatile weapon you didn't stow is now held two-handed) -> 1d10+5 two-handed
You don't get any benefit to stowing a weapon, which you cannot do until after taking the bonus action, unless you're swapping over to a two-handed grip for the remainder of your Attack action.
If you are taking the DuelingStyle, then (assuming you're also taking the Dual Wielder feat and have Extra Attack (2)) you could do:
1d8+5 mainhand -> 1d8+0 offhand(bonus action) -> stow one weapon -> 1d8+7 mainhand (whichever weapon you didn't stow is now 'mainhand') -> 1d8+7 mainhand
1d8+5 mainhand -> 1d8+0offhand (bonus action) -> stow one weapon -> 1d10+5 two-handed (whichever Versatile weapon you didn't stow is now held two-handed) -> 1d10+5 two-handed
You don't get to add your Strength Modifer to your offhand attack without the TWF Style, nor do you get to apply the Dueling Style bonus damage until you are actually wielding & attacking with a single weapon. It is entirely incompatible with Two-Weapon Fighting. Last time I checked 5 was still greater than 4, so unless you're a level 20 single-classed Fighter the Dueling Style is a straight loss of 1 damage. If you are a level 20 Fighter with Extra Attack (3), Dueling Style gets you exactly 1 point of (possible--you can still miss)damage for your effort.
If you are a Champion taking the DuelingStyle and the Two-Weapon Fighting Style, then (assuming you're also taking the Dual Wielder feat and have Extra Attack (2)) you could do:
1d8+5 mainhand -> 1d8+5 offhand(bonus action) -> stow one weapon -> 1d8+7 mainhand (whichever weapon you didn't stow is now 'mainhand') -> 1d8+7 mainhand
1d8+5 mainhand -> 1d8+5offhand (bonus action) -> stow one weapon -> 1d10+5 two-handed (whichever Versatile weapon you didn't stow is now held two-handed) -> 1d10+5 two-handed
What this all comes down to is that mixing styles is going to provide very little, if any net benefit, and takes a whole lot of investment. You can only get additional styles from either being a Champion, multiclassing (thereby removing all possibility of gaining Extra Attack (3)), or spending a feat (if your DM will even allow it) on an Unearthed Arcana feat.
Dual-Wielding in 5e is very 'meh' overall. It's not bad by any means, but it is just nowhere as good as other options. I tend to only recommend people dual-wield if they're a Rogue (extra chance to apply Sneak Attack if you miss your 1st swing), or if they're looking to make an area-denial build utilizing a Whip (10' Reach) and any compatible 5' reach melee weapon.
You'll get a lot more bang for your buck by picking a lane and sticking to it. Even if you are getting a second fighting style from your build (as Champion, MC, or feat), I would highly recommend that second style be either Defense or Archery.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Instead of doing the above, I would rather do Dueling Fighting Style instead of Great Weapon Master Fighting Style since Dueling Fighting Style gives an auto +2 instead of rolling for it as a versatile weapon die with Great Weapon Master Fighting Style. Plus the bonus action can benefit. So 1d8+5, then stow one longsword, 1d8+5+2 bonus, then both extra attacks for 1d8+5+2 and 1d8+5+2. So you are two weapon fighting and then changing stance to one weapon one hand fighting.
Okay, I see what you're trying to accomplish, but you're still misunderstanding how this works--you cannot benefit from Dueling while Two-Weapon Fighting, nor can you benefit from Two-Weapon Fighting while Dueling. The bonus action does not gain the benefit of Dueling.
Two-Weapon Fighting
When you take the Attack action and attack with a lightmelee weapon that you're holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different lightmelee weaponthat you're holding in the other hand. You don't add your ability modifier to the damage of the bonus attack, unless that modifier is negative.
You can't stow a weapon before taking the bonus action from Two-Weapon Fighting, or else you haven't fulfilled the requirements of TWF. You cannot take that bonus action without explicitly wielding two distinct one-handed weapons (Light weapons if you don't have the Dual Wielder feat). You can change things up after you've completed your bonus action.
A single-classed Fighter only ever learns a single Fighting Style through their level progression (unless you are taking the Champion Martial Archetype, and you only get one additional style at level 10), so let's start there. Which fighting style are you taking? Two-Weapon Style, or Dueling?
If you are taking the Two-Weapon Fighting Style, then (assuming you're also taking the Dual Wielder feat and have Extra Attack (2)) you could do:
1d8+5 mainhand -> 1d8+5 offhand (bonus action) -> stow one weapon -> 1d8+5 mainhand (whichever weapon you didn't stow is now 'mainhand') -> 1d8+5 mainhand
1d8+5 mainhand -> 1d8+5 offhand (bonus action) -> stow one weapon -> 1d10+5 two-handed (whichever Versatile weapon you didn't stow is now held two-handed) -> 1d10+5 two-handed
You don't get any benefit to stowing a weapon, which you cannot do until after taking the bonus action, unless you're swapping over to a two-handed grip for the remainder of your Attack action.
If you are taking the DuelingStyle, then (assuming you're also taking the Dual Wielder feat and have Extra Attack (2)) you could do:
1d8+5 mainhand -> 1d8+0 offhand(bonus action) -> stow one weapon -> 1d8+7 mainhand (whichever weapon you didn't stow is now 'mainhand') -> 1d8+7 mainhand
1d8+5 mainhand -> 1d8+0offhand (bonus action) -> stow one weapon -> 1d10+5 two-handed (whichever Versatile weapon you didn't stow is now held two-handed) -> 1d10+5 two-handed
You don't get to add your Strength Modifer to your offhand attack without the TWF Style, nor do you get to apply the Dueling Style bonus damage until you are actually wielding & attacking with a single weapon. It is entirely incompatible with Two-Weapon Fighting. Last time I checked 5 was still greater than 4, so unless you're a level 20 single-classed Fighter the Dueling Style is a straight loss of 1 damage. If you are a level 20 Fighter with Extra Attack (3), Dueling Style gets you exactly 1 point of (possible--you can still miss)damage for your effort.
If you are a Champion taking the DuelingStyle and the Two-Weapon Fighting Style, then (assuming you're also taking the Dual Wielder feat and have Extra Attack (2)) you could do:
1d8+5 mainhand -> 1d8+5 offhand(bonus action) -> stow one weapon -> 1d8+7 mainhand (whichever weapon you didn't stow is now 'mainhand') -> 1d8+7 mainhand
1d8+5 mainhand -> 1d8+5offhand (bonus action) -> stow one weapon -> 1d10+5 two-handed (whichever Versatile weapon you didn't stow is now held two-handed) -> 1d10+5 two-handed
What this all comes down to is that mixing styles is going to provide very little, if any net benefit, and takes a whole lot of investment. You can only get additional styles from either being a Champion, multiclassing (thereby removing all possibility of gaining Extra Attack (3)), or spending a feat (if your DM will even allow it) on an Unearthed Arcana feat.
Dual-Wielding in 5e is very 'meh' overall. It's not bad by any means, but it is just nowhere as good as other options. I tend to only recommend people dual-wield if they're a Rogue (extra chance to apply Sneak Attack if you miss your 1st swing), or if they're looking to make an area-denial build utilizing a Whip (10' Reach) and any compatible 5' reach melee weapon.
You'll get a lot more bang for your buck by picking a lane and sticking to it. Even if you are getting a second fighting style from your build (as Champion, MC, or feat), I would highly recommend that second style be either Defense or Archery.
So how about this. Barb Zealot 3, Rogue 3, Fighter Champion 11, and Ranger Hunter 3 with Two Weapon Fighting Style and Dueling Fighting Style also with the Duel Wielder Feat. (I don't see how a pole arm master can top this constant damage without using a temporary buff or potentially hinder ability to miss or something.)
Attack: Shortsword: 1d6+5
Sneak Attack: Reckless Attack: 2d6
Divine Furry: 1d6+1
Bonus Attack: Longsword: 1d8+5
Hunter's Prey: Colossus Slayer: 1d8
(Stow short sword)
Extra Attack 1: Longsword: Dueling Fighting Style: 1d8+5+2
Extra Attack 2: Longsword: Dueling Fighting Style: 1d8+5+2
Max damage: 81 (Not including conditional things like Rage, criticals, or so on since they may not apply due to rolls or uses. Just base damage with no hinderances to hit %.)
If you are a Champion taking the DuelingStyle and the Two-Weapon Fighting Style, then (assuming you're also taking the Dual Wielder feat and have Extra Attack (2)) you could do:
1d8+5 mainhand -> 1d8+5 offhand(bonus action) -> stow one weapon -> 1d8+7 mainhand (whichever weapon you didn't stow is now 'mainhand') -> 1d8+7 mainhand
1d8+5 mainhand -> 1d8+5offhand (bonus action) -> stow one weapon -> 1d10+5 two-handed (whichever Versatile weapon you didn't stow is now held two-handed) -> 1d10+5 two-handed
Pretty long post for this little chunk to be the only part that actually engaged with the setup that Mykel premised this thread on. That is mostly correct, but please note that Two Weapon Fighting is not worded in a way which demands that the mainhand weapon continue to be held after making the qualifying initial attack. There is no "...so long as you continue to wield two weapons while making the attack."
When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you're holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you're holding in the other hand.
So you can stow weapon 1 as soon as your done making your first qualifying attack, if you'd like. In the Dueling version (#1) you are overlooking the ability to stow one weapon after the first mainhand attack but before the bonus action attack, to pick up one more +2 Dueling bonus. And in the Great Weapon Fighting Style version (#2) if you again stow before the bonus action instead of after, it may be possible to make that as a 1d10 versatile attack as well. That depends on how a DM interprets "weapon that you're holding in the other hand." That you were holding in the other hand when the first attack that was made? That you're still holding in the other hand, and only in that hand? A little ambiguous.
If you are a Champion taking the DuelingStyle and the Two-Weapon Fighting Style, then (assuming you're also taking the Dual Wielder feat and have Extra Attack (2)) you could do:
1d8+5 mainhand -> 1d8+5 offhand(bonus action) -> stow one weapon -> 1d8+7 mainhand (whichever weapon you didn't stow is now 'mainhand') -> 1d8+7 mainhand
1d8+5 mainhand -> 1d8+5offhand (bonus action) -> stow one weapon -> 1d10+5 two-handed (whichever Versatile weapon you didn't stow is now held two-handed) -> 1d10+5 two-handed
Pretty long post for this little chunk to be the only part that actually engaged with the setup that Mykel premised this thread on. That is mostly correct, but please note that Two Weapon Fighting is not worded in a way which demands that the mainhand weapon continue to be held after making the qualifying initial attack. There is no "...so long as you continue to wield two weapons while making the attack."
When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you're holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you're holding in the other hand.
So you can stow weapon 1 as soon as your done making your first qualifying attack, if you'd like. In the Dueling version (#1) you are overlooking the ability to stow one weapon after the first mainhand attack but before the bonus action attack, to pick up one more +2 Dueling bonus. And in the Great Weapon Fighting Style version (#2) if you again stow before the bonus action instead of after, it may be possible to make that as a 1d10 versatile attack as well. That depends on how a DM interprets "weapon that you're holding in the other hand." That you were holding in the other hand when the first attack that was made? That you're still holding in the other hand, and only in that hand? A little ambiguous.
See I agree with you on the stowing to gain +2 on bonus attack as well since, "you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you're holding in the other hand." From what I understand, the bonus action doesn't even have to take place after the the main attack. You could extra attack twice, then bonus action. So I agree that Dueling Fighting Style should give a total +6 bonus instead of +4 total bonus if using 1 bonus action and two extra attacks.
Although, Great Weapon Fighting Style is interesting because the bonus action technically only requires that you use the other weapon.
However, I could see the requirement to use the bonus action being limited to a different light melee weapon that is used with the other hand while still holding the other weapon in the other hand; but that seems clunky in design to me. For example, does the bonus action fizzle because a reaction to the main attack blew off the arm using the main attack? Seems weird if so.
The only part that I want to be true but don't see how it can be true, is stowing after main attack and then later drawing the same sword you stowed after all the attacks are completed with the same hand you used to stow it with.
That last part, stowing a weapon and then redrawing it later in the round? You can do that with Dual Wielder, no problemo.
You can draw or stow two one-handed weapons when you would normally be able to draw or stow only one.
Reading that hyper-literally ("it has to be two different weapons, not one weapon two times! it has to be two weapons at once, not at two different times!") is bad and unfun, even if there is an argument that the language could be read that way. It could equally be read more permissively to mean "you can draw/stow weapons for free twice in a turn, instead of once in a turn like normal," and that's the interpretation that's most commonly been seen on these forums in the past until quite recently.
That last part, stowing a weapon and then redrawing it later in the round? You can do that with Dual Wielder, no problemo.
You can draw or stow two one-handed weapons when you would normally be able to draw or stow only one.
Reading that hyper-literally ("it has to be two different weapons, not one weapon two times! it has to be two weapons at once, not at two different times!") is bad and unfun, even if there is an argument that the language could be read that way. It could equally be read more permissively to mean "you can draw/stow weapons for free twice in a turn, instead of once in a turn like normal," and that's the interpretation that's most commonly been seen on these forums in the past until quite recently.
Sweet! I'm going with it! I don't understand why duel wielder feat gets less love compared to pole arm master feat. Pole arm master does 1d4+5 yet duel wielder feat can do 1d8+5 with two weapon fighting style. Pole arm master feat can have great weapon master feat for +10 (more conditional) yet duel wielder feat can have Dueling Fighting Style +2 and trigger Sneak Attack all while not decrease your attack die by 5. I agree that pole arm master with great weapon master can deal more damage, but seems less like especially with higher AC creatures.
Reading that hyper-literally ("it has to be two different weapons, not one weapon two times! it has to be two weapons at once, not at two different times!") is bad and unfun, even if there is an argument that the language could be read that way.
The language is pretty clearly written that way (it does not give two draw actions, it gives the ability to draw two weapons with one draw action) though I probably wouldn't care unless someone was doing something dumb like weapon juggling to get duelist with two weapons.
Sweet! I'm going with it! I don't understand why duel wielder feat gets less love compared to pole arm master feat.
Because PAM is objectively superior. For raw damage on your turn it's about the same:
Level 1 fighter (16 Str, Chainmail, 2 Longswords) with two weapon fighting style and dual wielder: AC 17, Total Damage 2d8+6 (15)
Level 1 fighter (16 Str, Chainmail, Glaive) with defensive fighting style and PAM: AC 17, Total Damage 1d10+1d4+6 (14)
At level 5, damage becomes equal (3d8 vs 2d10+1d4)
but PAM lets you use a reach weapon, gives you a reaction attack with a pretty good chance of triggering, and means a single magic weapon is sufficient. Dual Wielder is better for dex-based builds, but two weapon fighting in general turns a bit lackluster once people have multiple attacks.
Reading that hyper-literally ("it has to be two different weapons, not one weapon two times! it has to be two weapons at once, not at two different times!") is bad and unfun, even if there is an argument that the language could be read that way.
The language is pretty clearly written that way (it does not give two draw actions, it gives the ability to draw two weapons with one draw action) though I probably wouldn't care unless someone was doing something dumb like weapon juggling to get duelist with two weapons.
The wording isn't clear, which gives the multiple interpretations. A google search on this topic gives off multiple forums all trying to figure out what this really means. It's obvious only that the feat is vague to give multiple meanings.
Not sure how changing fighting stances in battle twice to yield two weapon fighting to strike with a blade, then one handed fighting to strike 3 more times, and then two weapon fighting to defend all within 6 seconds is dumb... Skilled talent from rollplaying with swift movement, mechanically interactive with feat and fighting styles, and yields a nice +6 bonus damage with +1 AC still to defend. This sounds like what a player sets out to do when making a character for battle.
Reading that hyper-literally ("it has to be two different weapons, not one weapon two times! it has to be two weapons at once, not at two different times!") is bad and unfun, even if there is an argument that the language could be read that way.
The language is pretty clearly written that way (it does not give two draw actions, it gives the ability to draw two weapons with one draw action) though I probably wouldn't care unless someone was doing something dumb like weapon juggling to get duelist with two weapons.
Sweet! I'm going with it! I don't understand why duel wielder feat gets less love compared to pole arm master feat.
Because PAM is objectively superior. For raw damage on your turn it's about the same:
Level 1 fighter (16 Str, Chainmail, 2 Longswords) with two weapon fighting style and dual wielder: AC 17, Total Damage 2d8+6 (15)
Level 1 fighter (16 Str, Chainmail, Glaive) with defensive fighting style and PAM: AC 17, Total Damage 1d10+1d4+6 (14)
At level 5, damage becomes equal (3d8 vs 2d10+1d4)
but PAM lets you use a reach weapon, gives you a reaction attack with a pretty good chance of triggering, and means a single magic weapon is sufficient. Dual Wielder is better for dex-based builds, but two weapon fighting in general turns a bit lackluster once people have multiple attacks.
My build Max with no conditional damage or hindering attack roll to hit (So no Rage, Action Surge, Improved Critical, Favored Enemy, or Spellcasting) : 5d8+3d6+27 = 85 (Fighter 11, Barbarian Zealot 3, Ranger Hunter 3, Rogue 3) Rage damage increases this max to 93
Pole arm master with fighter 20 gets max with no conditional or hindering attack roll to hit 4d10+1d4+25=69. (78 with reaction even though it is conditional damage.)
A level 20 fighter with duel wielder feat, two weapon fighting style, and dueling fighting style with same peramiters does max damage: 5d8+33 = 73 (Pole Arm Master only does better with the reaction for this build.)
Don't see how Pole Arm Master is better unless you rely on a bonus attack that may not happen (Then still not dealing as much as my build.) or relying on Great Weapon Master Feat which can increase chances of a miss.
My build Max with no conditional damage or hindering attack roll to hit (So no Rage, Action Surge, Improved Critical, Favored Enemy, or Spellcasting) : 5d8+3d6+27 = 85 (Fighter 11, Barbarian Zealot 3, Ranger Hunter 3, Rogue 3) Rage damage increases this max to 93
Pole arm master with fighter 20 gets max with no conditional or hindering attack roll to hit 4d10+1d4+25=69. (78 with reaction even though it is conditional damage.)
You're comparing apples and oranges (and made a mistake because zealot 1d6+1 only applies when raging); single class builds aren't the same as multiclass builds. Also, you're stuck with Champion, which is not a very good archetype. You also only have 4 ASIs because of all those 3 level dips.
Huh. I guess all of this revolves around what the third point of the dual wielder feat actually means:
You can draw or stow two one-handed weapons when you would normally be able to draw or stow only one.
That seems to me to say that you don't get two separate free object interactions, but when you do use your one free object interaction, you can use it to draw orsheath both of your weapons at once. I think under that interpretation, many of the things described above would break.
Huh. I guess all of this revolves around what the third point of the dual wielder feat actually means:
You can draw or stow two one-handed weapons when you would normally be able to draw or stow only one.
That seems to me to say that you don't get two separate free object interactions, but when you do use your one free object interaction, you can use it to draw or sheath both of your weapons at once. I think under that interpretation, many of the things described above would break.
Correct, the feat does not give you an additional free object interaction--it allows you to draw/stow two weapons with your one free object interaction.
If you are a Champion taking the DuelingStyle and the Two-Weapon Fighting Style, then (assuming you're also taking the Dual Wielder feat and have Extra Attack (2)) you could do:
1d8+5 mainhand -> 1d8+5 offhand(bonus action) -> stow one weapon -> 1d8+7 mainhand (whichever weapon you didn't stow is now 'mainhand') -> 1d8+7 mainhand
1d8+5 mainhand -> 1d8+5offhand (bonus action) -> stow one weapon -> 1d10+5 two-handed (whichever Versatile weapon you didn't stow is now held two-handed) -> 1d10+5 two-handed
Pretty long post for this little chunk to be the only part that actually engaged with the setup that Mykel premised this thread on. That is mostly correct, but please note that Two Weapon Fighting is not worded in a way which demands that the mainhand weapon continue to be held after making the qualifying initial attack. There is no "...so long as you continue to wield two weapons while making the attack."
They did not mention they would be taking the Champion Martial Archetype, so the whole thing was actually very important for all of us to get on the same page regarding the requirements to make the build possible.
As far as TWF goes, you must be actually holding two eligible weapons for the bonus action offhand attack. The text block very clearly states that you must attack with two different weapons you are holding in different hands. The entire text block is written in present tense--you are holding two weapons during the entire interaction, and that interaction is only completed after you take the bonus action offhand attack.
If you are not wielding two weapons, you are not dual-wielding. I can't believe I have to point out the tautology.
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In 5e. Using dual wielder feat to get non light one handed melee weapons and draw or stow two one handed weapons. Combined with Two Weapon Fighting Style to get dual Long Swords with added bonus modifier.
1) Does Rage work on the bonus attack? I think it does, but not sure with the rage wording.
2) Does Great Weapon Master Style work on long sword if not using the versatile damage die by using two hands? The technical wording makes it seem like it works, but the intention could have been otherwise, idk.
2.5) If it works, then does Great Weapon Master work for the bonus attack? (Same wording as question 1, so it should be the same answer given for question 1.)
Now for the main question, Dueling for +2 with dual wielder.
3) Do you have to have both weapons drawn during an attack in order to gain the bonus attack, or can you attack and then draw the second weapon to bonus attack with it?
4) Can you draw or stow at individual times? Such as draw with right hand the right long sword, attack with left short sword, then stow with left hand the left short sword?
4.5) Can you draw one and stow another at the same time?
The idea here is to attack with only one weapon drawn to get the +2 bonus, then draw the second weapon while stowing the first to attack for bonus only drawn to continue in getting +2 bonus.
Hopefully I explained this well enough. Thanks in advance!
1. Rage bonus is added two weapon fighting bonus action attack so long as the attack is made using strength. Rage takes a bonus action to activate so no benefit from the first round of combat.
2. & 2.5 You combined the names of the great weapon master feat and great weapon fighting style. These are two different game features though similar in name. I think your talking about the fighting style.
3. “Two-WEAPON FIGHTING
When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you're HOLDING in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you're HOLDING in the other hand. You don't add your ability modifier to the damage of the bonus attack, unless that modifier is negative.
If either weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon, instead of making a melee attack with it.”.
you need to already be holding both weapons.
4. You can swap weapons at the same time, but as your not actually complying with the two weapon fighting rules of holding two weapons at the same time while attacking, you wouldn’t gain the ability to use your bonus action to attack using that feature.
it seems like your attempting to stack fighting styles and feats whose feature requirements and subsequent benefits are mutually exclusive.
all that being said... polearm master solves most of your issues. It allows the use of the dueling fighting style with a spear/quarterstaff to emulate two weapon fighting mechanically while also allowing the use of a shield. also potentially benefits from rage. Mitigates first bonus action list by giving a potential reaction opportunity attack when creatures enter your reach.
1) Cool, thought it worked out that way.
2) For great weapon master fighting style, would it work for a long sword using 1d8 for dual wielding? (So not using its versatile 1d10). It says it needs versatile property, but doesn't say that you have to be using the versatile property of the versatile die for two hand fighting.
2.5) Assume its same as 1, which is good. (fighting style)
3) So if you are lvl 11 fighter, couldn't you just attack then bonus attack, stow one of the attack weapons, then extra attack twice with the remaining weapon to get a +2 bonus to the first and second extra attack? So a total of +4 damage from the Dueling Fighting Style.
4) If 3 works, then reverse it by attacking and then 1 extra attack with only one weapon drawn for the +4 total bonus (+2 for each individual attack). Then draw the second weapon. 2nd extra attack and then bonus attack while keeping both weapons out for +1 AC bonus.
4.5) This is a wash... sadly.
Maybe they aren't. Two weapon fighting style with duel wielder feat gets you a versatile weapon of long sword. Great weapon master works with versatile property weapon. Dueling works with a 1 hand weapon with none in other hand.
If this works, then dual wielder feat can be compared to pole arm master since the bonus action weapon has a higher hit die and extra attacks can give +2 damage for each extra attack that hits.
So many questions, confusing!
Sounds like the Rage bonus question is satisfied: Rage needs strength-based attacks, but doesn’t care if they’re attack action, bonus action, reaction, or whatever.
Great Weapon Fighting Style REQUIRES that the weapon be wielded with two hands AND that the weapon have Two-Handed or Versatile properties. A one-handed longsword (or two one-handed longswords being dual wielded) don’t satisfy the “wielded with two hands” requirement, so no to 2 and 2.5.
Bobby is correct that at least one attack in your attack action must be made WHILE wielding an offhand weapon, in order to trigger a bonus action attack with THAT offhand weapon. With Extra Attack, nothing stops you from making a first attack with only one main sword (+2 damage), then draw an offhand sword for free, then attack with main sword (no duelist +), then sheathe the main sword, then make a Bonus offhand sword attack (+2 damage). Works in reverse order too. It’s fiddly, and probably not worth the bookkeeping honestly, but technically works. It gets much fuzzier and more controversial if you start thinking about that same gimmick using improvised shield attacks as the offhand weapon ;)
There was someone that posted the other day that they tight Dual Wielder required both weapons be drawn simultaneously, not broken up as two separate free actions. That’s not the usual interpretation, and would seem to render it useless for many of the character builds that take it (dual wielding crossbow experts; multiclass spellcasters or gishes).
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Wow, totally missed the two hand part with Great Weapon Fighting Style... Another wash, unless I wanted to attack, then stow, then bonus action attack, and then use both extra attacks with two hands. But I think I'll pass on this.
Although the +4 with extra attacks from Dueling Fighting style is nice.
I'm not going to get into the whole mess of wrongness with the Two-Handed Style/Feat, but how exactly are you thinking that Dueling Fighting Style would ever apply to anything you're doing here?
Your entire premise is that you're using either two one-handed weapons, or one weapon held two-handed. Dueling is entirely incompatible with any of those setups.
Dueling only applies when you are wielding a single one-handed melee weapon. You cannot hold any other weapons for this style to apply (a Shield does not count as a weapon). You cannot apply the damage bonus from this style while you are dual-wielding, nor can you apply it when you are holding a weapon with two hands. It's 100% out of the question.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Yea I agreed with Chicken Champ that Great Weapon Master Fighting Style was a misread. I saw versatility and not using two hands, so thinking that you could use a versatile weapon one handed; but you can't.
What I meant by the quote you referenced is that you could forget about Dueling Fighting Style and get Great Weapon Master Fighting style instead. So attack with two on handed weapons, stow one, then bonus attack, then do 2 extra attacks as a level 11 Fighter with two handed long sword's versatility damage die since you are using the Duel Wielder Feat and Two Weapon Fighting Style. So 1d8+5, 1d8+5, 1d10+5, and 1d10+5. (Str 20) So you are two weapon fighting and then changing stance to two handed one weapon fighting.
Instead of doing the above, I would rather do Dueling Fighting Style instead of Great Weapon Master Fighting Style since Dueling Fighting Style gives an auto +2 instead of rolling for it as a versatile weapon die with Great Weapon Master Fighting Style. Plus the bonus action can benefit. So 1d8+5, then stow one longsword, 1d8+5+2 bonus, then both extra attacks for 1d8+5+2 and 1d8+5+2. So you are two weapon fighting and then changing stance to one weapon one hand fighting.
Heck add Sneak Attack multiclass into the mix with 1 longsword and 1 short sword. Do short sword first for 1d6+5 which triggers Sneak Attack for Xd6, then stow it and do longsword for 1d8+5+2 for bonus and both extra attacks.
Okay, starting with two one-handed longswords and Extra Attack (1) and Dual Wielder and Two-Weapon Fighting Style and Dueling Fighting Style:
That works. It works in reverse as well, starting with only one sword in hand:
Or, if you had Great Weapon Fighting Style instead of Dueling, you could blend that with Two-Weapon Fighting Style as well. Starting with two swords:
Or in reverse, starting with just one sword in hand:
Some people think that a fighting style requires you to stay in that style for the entirety of your turn, or the entirety of your attack action. That clearly is not the case... imagine you have Extra Attack, Dueling, and Archery fighting styles. Is there really an argument that you couldn't attack with the sword for 1d8+[Strength]+2, free action drop it and draw a longbow, and then attack with the longbow with +2 to hit? Nah, people just don't like draw/drop shenanigans.
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Okay, I see what you're trying to accomplish, but you're still misunderstanding how this works--you cannot benefit from Dueling while Two-Weapon Fighting, nor can you benefit from Two-Weapon Fighting while Dueling. The bonus action does not gain the benefit of Dueling.
You can't stow a weapon before taking the bonus action from Two-Weapon Fighting, or else you haven't fulfilled the requirements of TWF. You cannot take that bonus action without explicitly wielding two distinct one-handed weapons (Light weapons if you don't have the Dual Wielder feat). You can change things up after you've completed your bonus action.
A single-classed Fighter only ever learns a single Fighting Style through their level progression (unless you are taking the Champion Martial Archetype, and you only get one additional style at level 10), so let's start there. Which fighting style are you taking? Two-Weapon Style, or Dueling?
If you are taking the Two-Weapon Fighting Style, then (assuming you're also taking the Dual Wielder feat and have Extra Attack (2)) you could do:
You don't get any benefit to stowing a weapon, which you cannot do until after taking the bonus action, unless you're swapping over to a two-handed grip for the remainder of your Attack action.
If you are taking the Dueling Style, then (assuming you're also taking the Dual Wielder feat and have Extra Attack (2)) you could do:
You don't get to add your Strength Modifer to your offhand attack without the TWF Style, nor do you get to apply the Dueling Style bonus damage until you are actually wielding & attacking with a single weapon. It is entirely incompatible with Two-Weapon Fighting. Last time I checked 5 was still greater than 4, so unless you're a level 20 single-classed Fighter the Dueling Style is a straight loss of 1 damage. If you are a level 20 Fighter with Extra Attack (3), Dueling Style gets you exactly 1 point of (possible--you can still miss) damage for your effort.
If you are a Champion taking the Dueling Style and the Two-Weapon Fighting Style, then (assuming you're also taking the Dual Wielder feat and have Extra Attack (2)) you could do:
What this all comes down to is that mixing styles is going to provide very little, if any net benefit, and takes a whole lot of investment. You can only get additional styles from either being a Champion, multiclassing (thereby removing all possibility of gaining Extra Attack (3)), or spending a feat (if your DM will even allow it) on an Unearthed Arcana feat.
Dual-Wielding in 5e is very 'meh' overall. It's not bad by any means, but it is just nowhere as good as other options. I tend to only recommend people dual-wield if they're a Rogue (extra chance to apply Sneak Attack if you miss your 1st swing), or if they're looking to make an area-denial build utilizing a Whip (10' Reach) and any compatible 5' reach melee weapon.
You'll get a lot more bang for your buck by picking a lane and sticking to it. Even if you are getting a second fighting style from your build (as Champion, MC, or feat), I would highly recommend that second style be either Defense or Archery.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
So how about this. Barb Zealot 3, Rogue 3, Fighter Champion 11, and Ranger Hunter 3 with Two Weapon Fighting Style and Dueling Fighting Style also with the Duel Wielder Feat. (I don't see how a pole arm master can top this constant damage without using a temporary buff or potentially hinder ability to miss or something.)
Attack: Shortsword: 1d6+5
Sneak Attack: Reckless Attack: 2d6
Divine Furry: 1d6+1
Bonus Attack: Longsword: 1d8+5
Hunter's Prey: Colossus Slayer: 1d8
(Stow short sword)
Extra Attack 1: Longsword: Dueling Fighting Style: 1d8+5+2
Extra Attack 2: Longsword: Dueling Fighting Style: 1d8+5+2
Max damage: 81 (Not including conditional things like Rage, criticals, or so on since they may not apply due to rolls or uses. Just base damage with no hinderances to hit %.)
Pretty long post for this little chunk to be the only part that actually engaged with the setup that Mykel premised this thread on. That is mostly correct, but please note that Two Weapon Fighting is not worded in a way which demands that the mainhand weapon continue to be held after making the qualifying initial attack. There is no "...so long as you continue to wield two weapons while making the attack."
So you can stow weapon 1 as soon as your done making your first qualifying attack, if you'd like. In the Dueling version (#1) you are overlooking the ability to stow one weapon after the first mainhand attack but before the bonus action attack, to pick up one more +2 Dueling bonus. And in the Great Weapon Fighting Style version (#2) if you again stow before the bonus action instead of after, it may be possible to make that as a 1d10 versatile attack as well. That depends on how a DM interprets "weapon that you're holding in the other hand." That you were holding in the other hand when the first attack that was made? That you're still holding in the other hand, and only in that hand? A little ambiguous.
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See I agree with you on the stowing to gain +2 on bonus attack as well since, "you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you're holding in the other hand." From what I understand, the bonus action doesn't even have to take place after the the main attack. You could extra attack twice, then bonus action. So I agree that Dueling Fighting Style should give a total +6 bonus instead of +4 total bonus if using 1 bonus action and two extra attacks.
Although, Great Weapon Fighting Style is interesting because the bonus action technically only requires that you use the other weapon.
However, I could see the requirement to use the bonus action being limited to a different light melee weapon that is used with the other hand while still holding the other weapon in the other hand; but that seems clunky in design to me. For example, does the bonus action fizzle because a reaction to the main attack blew off the arm using the main attack? Seems weird if so.
The only part that I want to be true but don't see how it can be true, is stowing after main attack and then later drawing the same sword you stowed after all the attacks are completed with the same hand you used to stow it with.
That last part, stowing a weapon and then redrawing it later in the round? You can do that with Dual Wielder, no problemo.
Reading that hyper-literally ("it has to be two different weapons, not one weapon two times! it has to be two weapons at once, not at two different times!") is bad and unfun, even if there is an argument that the language could be read that way. It could equally be read more permissively to mean "you can draw/stow weapons for free twice in a turn, instead of once in a turn like normal," and that's the interpretation that's most commonly been seen on these forums in the past until quite recently.
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Sweet! I'm going with it! I don't understand why duel wielder feat gets less love compared to pole arm master feat. Pole arm master does 1d4+5 yet duel wielder feat can do 1d8+5 with two weapon fighting style. Pole arm master feat can have great weapon master feat for +10 (more conditional) yet duel wielder feat can have Dueling Fighting Style +2 and trigger Sneak Attack all while not decrease your attack die by 5. I agree that pole arm master with great weapon master can deal more damage, but seems less like especially with higher AC creatures.
The language is pretty clearly written that way (it does not give two draw actions, it gives the ability to draw two weapons with one draw action) though I probably wouldn't care unless someone was doing something dumb like weapon juggling to get duelist with two weapons.
Because PAM is objectively superior. For raw damage on your turn it's about the same:
but PAM lets you use a reach weapon, gives you a reaction attack with a pretty good chance of triggering, and means a single magic weapon is sufficient. Dual Wielder is better for dex-based builds, but two weapon fighting in general turns a bit lackluster once people have multiple attacks.
The wording isn't clear, which gives the multiple interpretations. A google search on this topic gives off multiple forums all trying to figure out what this really means. It's obvious only that the feat is vague to give multiple meanings.
Not sure how changing fighting stances in battle twice to yield two weapon fighting to strike with a blade, then one handed fighting to strike 3 more times, and then two weapon fighting to defend all within 6 seconds is dumb... Skilled talent from rollplaying with swift movement, mechanically interactive with feat and fighting styles, and yields a nice +6 bonus damage with +1 AC still to defend. This sounds like what a player sets out to do when making a character for battle.
My build Max with no conditional damage or hindering attack roll to hit (So no Rage, Action Surge, Improved Critical, Favored Enemy, or Spellcasting) : 5d8+3d6+27 = 85 (Fighter 11, Barbarian Zealot 3, Ranger Hunter 3, Rogue 3) Rage damage increases this max to 93
Pole arm master with fighter 20 gets max with no conditional or hindering attack roll to hit 4d10+1d4+25=69. (78 with reaction even though it is conditional damage.)
A level 20 fighter with duel wielder feat, two weapon fighting style, and dueling fighting style with same peramiters does max damage: 5d8+33 = 73 (Pole Arm Master only does better with the reaction for this build.)
Don't see how Pole Arm Master is better unless you rely on a bonus attack that may not happen (Then still not dealing as much as my build.) or relying on Great Weapon Master Feat which can increase chances of a miss.
You're comparing apples and oranges (and made a mistake because zealot 1d6+1 only applies when raging); single class builds aren't the same as multiclass builds. Also, you're stuck with Champion, which is not a very good archetype. You also only have 4 ASIs because of all those 3 level dips.
Huh. I guess all of this revolves around what the third point of the dual wielder feat actually means:
That seems to me to say that you don't get two separate free object interactions, but when you do use your one free object interaction, you can use it to draw or sheath both of your weapons at once. I think under that interpretation, many of the things described above would break.
Correct, the feat does not give you an additional free object interaction--it allows you to draw/stow two weapons with your one free object interaction.
They did not mention they would be taking the Champion Martial Archetype, so the whole thing was actually very important for all of us to get on the same page regarding the requirements to make the build possible.
As far as TWF goes, you must be actually holding two eligible weapons for the bonus action offhand attack. The text block very clearly states that you must attack with two different weapons you are holding in different hands. The entire text block is written in present tense--you are holding two weapons during the entire interaction, and that interaction is only completed after you take the bonus action offhand attack.
If you are not wielding two weapons, you are not dual-wielding. I can't believe I have to point out the tautology.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.