So if I’m jumping a gap that is 40 feet wide and 50 feet deep and I miss jump across. Or if I was pushed off the edge and fell into the gap
based on the conversation two things occur
1) I cannot cast Misty Step to Bamf to the lip of the gap. Because....yeah not clear on why. 2) I fall immediately 500 feet which in this case 50 feet to the ground and taking 5d6 fall damage.
Now, Feather Fall has a trigger of "you or creature within 60' falls", and because it only lasts for 1 minute at 60'/round, if you cast at the instant you fall and the fall is more than 600', it expires before you land, and even if it's a shorter fall, you might not want to be floating down at 60'/round for multiple rounds if there's flying critters that might use the opportunity to harass you. So, can you cast feather fall in the middle of a fall? (because D&D needs HALO jumps...).
While feather falling, cast and drop levitate. Now you will float gently to the ground regardless of how far you fall.
So if I’m jumping a gap that is 40 feet wide and 50 feet deep and I miss jump across. Or if I was pushed off the edge and fell into the gap
based on the conversation two things occur
1) I cannot cast Misty Step to Bamf to the lip of the gap. Because....yeah not clear on why. 2) I fall immediately 500 feet which in this case 50 feet to the ground and taking 5d6 fall damage.
First off, sorry for taking a left turn on your original question! I hope it was okay!
I see it as (after reading what everyone said), if the DM says so, your strength 10 guy can make a running 40 ft jump with a misty step built in (decided ahead of time). A 40 foot jump normally can't be attempted without magic.
However, if you fall unexpectedly, misty step (a bonus action) is too slow to save you.
Feather fall, a "reaction to a fall", is fast enough to save you. (I kinda picture the verbal component as a horrified gasp when someone falls.)
DM discretion as always, though. I imagine if you planned on "I use misty step if I feel a handhold start to give," the DM might allow something like that, if there's a place you could teleport to.
I'd say not with misty step since that takes a bonus action to cast but feather fall is a reaction that you cast when triggered by a fall...
this is subject to the distance fallen of course because if you fall more than 500 feet then on your next turn you can take actions and bonus actions so you could cast misty step then.
Some DMs might go by the 'rule of cool' and allow you to use misty step or other spells to try and save yourself from a very high fall.
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So if I’m jumping a gap that is 40 feet wide and 50 feet deep and I miss jump across. Or if I was pushed off the edge and fell into the gap
based on the conversation two things occur
1) I cannot cast Misty Step to Bamf to the lip of the gap. Because....yeah not clear on why. 2) I fall immediately 500 feet which in this case 50 feet to the ground and taking 5d6 fall damage.
First off, sorry for taking a left turn on your original question! I hope it was okay!
I see it as (after reading what everyone said), if the DM says so, your strength 10 guy can make a running 40 ft jump with a misty step built in (decided ahead of time). A 40 foot jump normally can't be attempted without magic.
However, if you fall unexpectedly, misty step (a bonus action) is too slow to save you.
Feather fall, a "reaction to a fall", is fast enough to save you. (I kinda picture the verbal component as a horrified gasp when someone falls.)
DM discretion as always, though. I imagine if you planned on "I use misty step if I feel a handhold start to give," the DM might allow something like that, if there's a place you could teleport to.
no worries about the left turn I like that a simple Yes/No question was able to grow into something, hopefully, useful in the long run.
So why is the bonus action too slow. That is where I’m failing to connect the reasoning to the rules.
There's a line in the falling description in Xanathar's guide that says when you fall, you fall the first 500 feet immediately. If you believe that immediately means immediately, then you don't have time to take an action or a bonus action. Reactions are a little bit of a different beast because they always depend on what triggers them. In the case of feather fall, when you see someone nearby falling, you can cast the spell. That specific rule beats the general rule that you fall 500 feet immediately and so you have just enough time to cast it as soon as you fall.
The fact that you are falling “immediately” does not preclude that other things may be happening WHILE falling. You won’t find any text in PHB or DMG to support that there is a difference between acting while “moving” or moving before and after an action... so I’m not clear where this insistence is that “immediately” can’t allow for simultaneously with another action. It’s not like a Bonus takes 2 seconds and an Action 4 or anything... they’re just “part of” your messy 6-second turn (which is somehow simultaneous with, but also before/after, every other creatures 6-second turn that round).
The text in DMG and XGTE is explicit in RAW, recognizes that falling takes time, but then proceeds to ignore it takes time to fall.
XGTE on page 77 explicitly references existing pre-XGTE rules that a creature immediately drops the entire distance, before describing the optional rule in XGTE that a creature drops immediately only 500 feet.
That means if the fall is less than 500 feet, no Misty Step.
If fall is over 500 feet, you can use Misty Step on the next turn. BUT, if using XGTE optional rule, it also explicitly states that falling distance on 2nd turn (and beyond) happens AT THE END of the turn. RAW treats the timing of the distance fallen differently on turn 1 and subsequent turns. So in essence, if you follow RAW, char slips on a cliff, or misses the jump on the chasm, or is dropped by a Dragon the char stupidly tried to grapple, or whatever, the char immediately falls 500, and no Misty Step is available, if the fall is less than 500 feet (assuming you are using XGTE rules). Now, IF the distance is more than 500 feet, what happens, per RAW, is the char does his Action, potential Bonus Action (Misty Step), and THEN falls a maximum of 500 feet. It is dumb, since the char is suspended in mid-air on its 2nd turn, and falls after all action economy, but that is RAW.
Now, I know of no rule that talks about momentum. Say a char is looking at a 600 foot drop. The char has accumulated 50d6 of potential falling damage in turn 1. Can the char on turn 2, Misty Step down 30 feet, but in doing so, turn their velocity to 0, kill all the momentum (50d6 of damage) from turn 1, and then fall only 70 feet at end of turn 2, taking only 7d6 of damage? I would say no in my game, but I think it is DM Fiat.
Well as I said - momentum in 5e doesn't exist. So the only thing you would be concerned with is - are you still falling or not - and if you are - how far have you actually fallen. This is why a DM would need to rule whether teleporting resets the fall height (momentum not conserved) or not (momentum conserved).
All that said - I think this is getting a little off-topic from the OP.
This is not true. If something falls a full round (580'), and then and additional 20' the next round, it is treated as a 200+ foot fall, not as a 20 foot fall.
What's not true? The only statements I made were that momentum in 5e doesn't exist and that we're getting a little off-topic.
I proposed that a DM would have to decide if teleporting does or does not conserve our understanding of momentum. That is - there are 2 situations.
It would add or subtract to or from the distance moved (depending on direction of the teleport up or down) to the fall height you've already done and will continue to do. This represents conserving momentum. For example a 600 ft fall with a Misty Step directly down would result in an actual 570 ft fall while a Misty Step directly up would result in a 630 ft fall.
Or it would reset the fall height back to 0 and you would fall as if you'd started from stationary after the teleport. This represents momentum not being conserved. In this case a 600 ft fall with a Misty Step cast directly down at the 500 ft mark would result in a fall of 70 ft - because the teleport would put you 70 ft above the ground and you'd start falling again.
I didn't say which I would use. I said a DM would have to decide which one they plan on using. The rules RAW do not say either way which one would be true.
So why is the bonus action too slow. That is where I’m failing to connect the reasoning to the rules.
It's got nothing to do with a bonus action being too slow, it's just the way that actions work mechanically in 5e. Saying "I'm going to jump over this gap, but if I fail I'm going to cast a spell," would - mechanically - be saying "I'm going to use the Ready action to prepare a spell to cast with my reaction, with the trigger being that I start to fall mid jump." This is certainly something you can do, but the problem in this case is that Misty Step is a bonus action, and per the rules of the Ready action you cannot ready a bonus action, only an action. Thus you wouldn't be able to do this, unfortunately. Saying "I'm going to jump as far as I can and then cast Misty Step" is a different scenario; you're not Readying the spell to trigger when you fall, you're just moving and casting which is well within the rules.
The fact that you are falling “immediately” does not preclude that other things may be happening WHILE falling. You won’t find any text in PHB or DMG to support that there is a difference between acting while “moving” or moving before and after an action... so I’m not clear where this insistence is that “immediately” can’t allow for simultaneously with another action. It’s not like a Bonus takes 2 seconds and an Action 4 or anything... they’re just “part of” your messy 6-second turn (which is somehow simultaneous with, but also before/after, every other creatures 6-second turn that round).
D&D ain’t a simulation, that’s for sure.
Immediately means immediately. It interrupts anything else that is happening, and those things can only resume after you fall. If you fall during your movement (tried to jump a gap and failed), you instantly fall the entire distance and only after the fall can you continue your movement (if you have any left) or perform any other actions you still have available. If you fall as a result of an enemy throwing you off a cliff, then you fall immediately. Their turn is interrupted while you fall, and then they can resume it after the fall. They wouldn't be able to throw you off a cliff and then throw a dagger down after you midair, because you're already (up to) 500 feet down.
You are correct that D&D isn't a simulation; if it were, you'd be able to do things while falling. But once a fall begins, you instantly fall the entire distance - interrupting anything else - so you can't.
As for the debate as to whether your "momentum" (distance fallen) would carry over after a Misty Step (assuming you're using the 500 ft rule and don't just fall the entire way immediately), that's clearly got to be up to DM discretion. If, as a DM, you want the fall distance to carry over, so be it. If not, cool.
This actually reminds me of the book and movie Jumper, if anyone has read or seen either of them. The book is great, while the movie's... not, just an okay action flick, but it's interesting because in the book momentum is not conserved when the character teleports, however in the movie they changed it so that it was, so as to make for better action scenes. The book does a very good job of exploring the mechanics of teleportation, if anyone wants a pretty good read.
The fact that you are falling “immediately” does not preclude that other things may be happening WHILE falling. You won’t find any text in PHB or DMG to support that there is a difference between acting while “moving” or moving before and after an action... so I’m not clear where this insistence is that “immediately” can’t allow for simultaneously with another action. It’s not like a Bonus takes 2 seconds and an Action 4 or anything... they’re just “part of” your messy 6-second turn (which is somehow simultaneous with, but also before/after, every other creatures 6-second turn that round).
D&D ain’t a simulation, that’s for sure.
I think this is a very reasonable take and I agree with you. For comparison, dimension door will let you teleport up to 500 feet. The idea that the time between someone beginning to fall and them hitting the ground 500 feet below is equal to the time it takes someone to cast dimension door and appear on the ground 500 feet below being equal is problematic for verisimilutude. Nobody and nothing falls that fast. You couldn't throw a spear because as soon as it hits its zenith and begins to fall, it's instantly on the ground.
Everything was fine in the basic rules until Xanathar messed things up.
I would second the idea of a simple(and better, in my opinion) house rule. The amount you fall in 6 seconds is 579 ft in a vacuum. You fall at an increasing rate until you reach terminal velocity. To make things MUCH simpler, just round the fall up to 600ft per round so, you end up falling 100ft per second. It's linear and not entirely accurate but, much more so than, falling immediately 500ft.
I would second the idea of a simple(and better, in my opinion) house rule. The amount you fall in 6 seconds is 579 ft in a vacuum. You fall at an increasing rate until you reach terminal velocity. To make things MUCH simpler, just round the fall up to 600ft per round so, you end up falling 100ft per second. It's linear and not entirely accurate but, much more so than, falling immediately 500ft.
I like that idea. Seems like a reasonable house rule.
So why is the bonus action too slow. That is where I’m failing to connect the reasoning to the rules.
It's got nothing to do with a bonus action being too slow, it's just the way that actions work mechanically in 5e. Saying "I'm going to jump over this gap, but if I fail I'm going to cast a spell," would - mechanically - be saying "I'm going to use the Ready action to prepare a spell to cast with my reaction, with the trigger being that I start to fall mid jump." This is certainly something you can do, but the problem in this case is that Misty Step is a bonus action, and per the rules of the Ready action you cannot ready a bonus action, only an action. Thus you wouldn't be able to do this, unfortunately. Saying "I'm going to jump as far as I can and then cast Misty Step" is a different scenario; you're not Readying the spell to trigger when you fall, you're just moving and casting which is well within the rules.
Ok, here me out. What If? What if the play tries to make the movement/jump, assuming he can make the distance and give no indication that Misty Step is used as a backup. For whatever reason, the player is unable to make the distance, would they be able to say "Use Misty Step" since no Action has been used.
So why is the bonus action too slow. That is where I’m failing to connect the reasoning to the rules.
It's got nothing to do with a bonus action being too slow, it's just the way that actions work mechanically in 5e. Saying "I'm going to jump over this gap, but if I fail I'm going to cast a spell," would - mechanically - be saying "I'm going to use the Ready action to prepare a spell to cast with my reaction, with the trigger being that I start to fall mid jump." This is certainly something you can do, but the problem in this case is that Misty Step is a bonus action, and per the rules of the Ready action you cannot ready a bonus action, only an action. Thus you wouldn't be able to do this, unfortunately. Saying "I'm going to jump as far as I can and then cast Misty Step" is a different scenario; you're not Readying the spell to trigger when you fall, you're just moving and casting which is well within the rules.
Ok, here me out. What If? What if the play tries to make the movement/jump, assuming he can make the distance and give no indication that Misty Step is used as a backup. For whatever reason, the player is unable to make the distance, would they be able to say "Use Misty Step" since no Action has been used.
Per the rules, no. Once you've fallen, that's it; you fall immediately. You can't take an action nor a bonus action until after the fall. But that's just what the RAW is; I said in my first post here that I would likely allow it. DMs are free to make whatever rulings they want, particularly when the rules themselves are as silly as the falling ones are.
Edit: Well, I say I would allow it, but I probably wouldn't in that particular case; it would be trying to use Misty Step as a reaction, and that's really just stepping all over the toes of spells that actually allow this, like Feather Fall However, if a player said beforehand that they wanted to ReadyMisty Stepin case they fall - rather than falling and then saying they want to Misty Step - I think I would allow it, even though you're technically not allowed to Ready a bonus action.
Ok, here me out. What If? What if the play tries to make the movement/jump, assuming he can make the distance and give no indication that Misty Step is used as a backup. For whatever reason, the player is unable to make the distance, would they be able to say "Use Misty Step" since no Action has been used.
No, because misty step is not a reaction and only reactions can be used as an interrupt.
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I absolutely think you should be able to cast during a fall - but XGtE's optional rule suggests you can't do that because it says falling is instant.
Mega Yahtzee Thread:
Highest 41: brocker2001 (#11,285).
Yahtzee of 2's: Emmber (#36,161).
Lowest 9: JoeltheWalrus (#312), Emmber (#12,505) and Dertinus (#20,953).
So if I’m jumping a gap that is 40 feet wide and 50 feet deep and I miss jump across. Or if I was pushed off the edge and fell into the gap
based on the conversation two things occur
1) I cannot cast Misty Step to Bamf to the lip of the gap. Because....yeah not clear on why.
2) I fall immediately 500 feet which in this case 50 feet to the ground and taking 5d6 fall damage.
While feather falling, cast and drop levitate. Now you will float gently to the ground regardless of how far you fall.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
First off, sorry for taking a left turn on your original question! I hope it was okay!
I see it as (after reading what everyone said), if the DM says so, your strength 10 guy can make a running 40 ft jump with a misty step built in (decided ahead of time). A 40 foot jump normally can't be attempted without magic.
However, if you fall unexpectedly, misty step (a bonus action) is too slow to save you.
Feather fall, a "reaction to a fall", is fast enough to save you. (I kinda picture the verbal component as a horrified gasp when someone falls.)
DM discretion as always, though. I imagine if you planned on "I use misty step if I feel a handhold start to give," the DM might allow something like that, if there's a place you could teleport to.
I'd say not with misty step since that takes a bonus action to cast but feather fall is a reaction that you cast when triggered by a fall...
this is subject to the distance fallen of course because if you fall more than 500 feet then on your next turn you can take actions and bonus actions so you could cast misty step then.
Some DMs might go by the 'rule of cool' and allow you to use misty step or other spells to try and save yourself from a very high fall.
So why is the bonus action too slow. That is where I’m failing to connect the reasoning to the rules.
no worries about the left turn I like that a simple Yes/No question was able to grow into something, hopefully, useful in the long run.
There's a line in the falling description in Xanathar's guide that says when you fall, you fall the first 500 feet immediately. If you believe that immediately means immediately, then you don't have time to take an action or a bonus action. Reactions are a little bit of a different beast because they always depend on what triggers them. In the case of feather fall, when you see someone nearby falling, you can cast the spell. That specific rule beats the general rule that you fall 500 feet immediately and so you have just enough time to cast it as soon as you fall.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
The fact that you are falling “immediately” does not preclude that other things may be happening WHILE falling. You won’t find any text in PHB or DMG to support that there is a difference between acting while “moving” or moving before and after an action... so I’m not clear where this insistence is that “immediately” can’t allow for simultaneously with another action. It’s not like a Bonus takes 2 seconds and an Action 4 or anything... they’re just “part of” your messy 6-second turn (which is somehow simultaneous with, but also before/after, every other creatures 6-second turn that round).
D&D ain’t a simulation, that’s for sure.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
The text in DMG and XGTE is explicit in RAW, recognizes that falling takes time, but then proceeds to ignore it takes time to fall.
XGTE on page 77 explicitly references existing pre-XGTE rules that a creature immediately drops the entire distance, before describing the optional rule in XGTE that a creature drops immediately only 500 feet.
That means if the fall is less than 500 feet, no Misty Step.
If fall is over 500 feet, you can use Misty Step on the next turn. BUT, if using XGTE optional rule, it also explicitly states that falling distance on 2nd turn (and beyond) happens AT THE END of the turn. RAW treats the timing of the distance fallen differently on turn 1 and subsequent turns. So in essence, if you follow RAW, char slips on a cliff, or misses the jump on the chasm, or is dropped by a Dragon the char stupidly tried to grapple, or whatever, the char immediately falls 500, and no Misty Step is available, if the fall is less than 500 feet (assuming you are using XGTE rules). Now, IF the distance is more than 500 feet, what happens, per RAW, is the char does his Action, potential Bonus Action (Misty Step), and THEN falls a maximum of 500 feet. It is dumb, since the char is suspended in mid-air on its 2nd turn, and falls after all action economy, but that is RAW.
Now, I know of no rule that talks about momentum. Say a char is looking at a 600 foot drop. The char has accumulated 50d6 of potential falling damage in turn 1. Can the char on turn 2, Misty Step down 30 feet, but in doing so, turn their velocity to 0, kill all the momentum (50d6 of damage) from turn 1, and then fall only 70 feet at end of turn 2, taking only 7d6 of damage? I would say no in my game, but I think it is DM Fiat.
What's not true? The only statements I made were that momentum in 5e doesn't exist and that we're getting a little off-topic.
I proposed that a DM would have to decide if teleporting does or does not conserve our understanding of momentum. That is - there are 2 situations.
I didn't say which I would use. I said a DM would have to decide which one they plan on using. The rules RAW do not say either way which one would be true.
Mega Yahtzee Thread:
Highest 41: brocker2001 (#11,285).
Yahtzee of 2's: Emmber (#36,161).
Lowest 9: JoeltheWalrus (#312), Emmber (#12,505) and Dertinus (#20,953).
Don't dogpile on me for this idea.
If anyone has Twitter I think these questions would be a good 'Let's Just See If He'll Respond' to ask @JeremyECrawford
It's got nothing to do with a bonus action being too slow, it's just the way that actions work mechanically in 5e. Saying "I'm going to jump over this gap, but if I fail I'm going to cast a spell," would - mechanically - be saying "I'm going to use the Ready action to prepare a spell to cast with my reaction, with the trigger being that I start to fall mid jump." This is certainly something you can do, but the problem in this case is that Misty Step is a bonus action, and per the rules of the Ready action you cannot ready a bonus action, only an action. Thus you wouldn't be able to do this, unfortunately. Saying "I'm going to jump as far as I can and then cast Misty Step" is a different scenario; you're not Readying the spell to trigger when you fall, you're just moving and casting which is well within the rules.
Immediately means immediately. It interrupts anything else that is happening, and those things can only resume after you fall. If you fall during your movement (tried to jump a gap and failed), you instantly fall the entire distance and only after the fall can you continue your movement (if you have any left) or perform any other actions you still have available. If you fall as a result of an enemy throwing you off a cliff, then you fall immediately. Their turn is interrupted while you fall, and then they can resume it after the fall. They wouldn't be able to throw you off a cliff and then throw a dagger down after you midair, because you're already (up to) 500 feet down.
You are correct that D&D isn't a simulation; if it were, you'd be able to do things while falling. But once a fall begins, you instantly fall the entire distance - interrupting anything else - so you can't.
As for the debate as to whether your "momentum" (distance fallen) would carry over after a Misty Step (assuming you're using the 500 ft rule and don't just fall the entire way immediately), that's clearly got to be up to DM discretion. If, as a DM, you want the fall distance to carry over, so be it. If not, cool.
This actually reminds me of the book and movie Jumper, if anyone has read or seen either of them. The book is great, while the movie's... not, just an okay action flick, but it's interesting because in the book momentum is not conserved when the character teleports, however in the movie they changed it so that it was, so as to make for better action scenes. The book does a very good job of exploring the mechanics of teleportation, if anyone wants a pretty good read.
I think this is a very reasonable take and I agree with you. For comparison, dimension door will let you teleport up to 500 feet. The idea that the time between someone beginning to fall and them hitting the ground 500 feet below is equal to the time it takes someone to cast dimension door and appear on the ground 500 feet below being equal is problematic for verisimilutude. Nobody and nothing falls that fast. You couldn't throw a spear because as soon as it hits its zenith and begins to fall, it's instantly on the ground.
Everything was fine in the basic rules until Xanathar messed things up.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
I would second the idea of a simple(and better, in my opinion) house rule. The amount you fall in 6 seconds is 579 ft in a vacuum. You fall at an increasing rate until you reach terminal velocity. To make things MUCH simpler, just round the fall up to 600ft per round so, you end up falling 100ft per second. It's linear and not entirely accurate but, much more so than, falling immediately 500ft.
I like that idea. Seems like a reasonable house rule.
Ok, here me out. What If? What if the play tries to make the movement/jump, assuming he can make the distance and give no indication that Misty Step is used as a backup. For whatever reason, the player is unable to make the distance, would they be able to say "Use Misty Step" since no Action has been used.
Or why even define it? Just say you fall. Damage is calculated based on the distance. You fall as fast as the DM wants the story to indicate.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Per the rules, no. Once you've fallen, that's it; you fall immediately. You can't take an action nor a bonus action until after the fall. But that's just what the RAW is; I said in my first post here that I would likely allow it. DMs are free to make whatever rulings they want, particularly when the rules themselves are as silly as the falling ones are.
Edit: Well, I say I would allow it, but I probably wouldn't in that particular case; it would be trying to use Misty Step as a reaction, and that's really just stepping all over the toes of spells that actually allow this, like Feather Fall
However, if a player said beforehand that they wanted to Ready Misty Step in case they fall - rather than falling and then saying they want to Misty Step - I think I would allow it, even though you're technically not allowed to Ready a bonus action.
No, because misty step is not a reaction and only reactions can be used as an interrupt.