Being immune to Polymorph due to this technicality might break down the rules, no DM worth their salt would let that stand.
Basically, you are allowing an exploit. If you disagree and WANT to play pure RAW, go ahead. If you want to play what is probably RAI, just assign a damn CR and don't be a PITA.
Being immune to Polymorph due to this technicality might break down the rules, no DM worth their salt would let that stand.
Basically, you are allowing an exploit. If you disagree and WANT to play pure RAW, go ahead. If you want to play what is probably RAI, just assign a damn CR and don't be a PITA.
How do you know what's RAI? IMO, it's RAI to not allow an steel defender be polymorphed. Also, I don't think it's an exploit, and a DM is not a bad DM if they play this rule as written.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
I still think this is an exploit and not a legitimate intent or application of the rules, but after looking, only 3 of the listed creatures are actually valid (the others being UA, so not currently RAW or published). for the others
1)Avatar of Death: This is only summoned by the Skull Card of the Deck of Many Things, and is intended to be a fight to the death, so Polymorph/True Polymorph, whether or not it works, is only delaying the inevitable (and if anyone helps you, they summon their own avatar). Its also the only one with a CR actually listed as "- (0xp)" So I could see it actually not intended to have a CR (and with variable hitpoints and an attack that automatically hits, calculating it would change depending on the PC it was summoned against)
2)Homunculus/Steel Defender: These are creatures created by the Artificer Class, so they likely would not be found alone. The CR for their statblock is just missing, which is most likely due to the fact that the CR of the creature would have to be variable, as its damage, bonus to hit, and hitpoints all change with their associated artificer's level (this is also true of the Avatar of Death, but only for its Hitpoints). Here, I do feel the omission of a CR is an oversight when compared to the rules of Polymorph, as 1) its in a different setting and 2) it was published much much later.
Regardless, and even though I feel that the CR can be calculated or just assigned for these creatures, I could see the need for an errata, as I am almost 100% sure the intent was not to make them immune to Polymorph simply due to the lack of a published CR. Immunity to spells are practically always spelled out either in the spell effect, or in a trait associated with the creature that is immune
It's one thing to play Devil's Advocate to promote critical thinking and quite another to try to employ Murphy's Law to establish likely outcomes. If you don't know what I mean, here you go:
Any creature that doesn't state an immunity to Polymorph(in some direct manner or another), isn't. The Devil's Advocate response = RAW says a creature needs a CR level in order to be a valid Polymorph target.
Murphy's Law, anything that can happen, will. Maybe the lack of a CR is intentional and they specifically wanted the creature in question to be immune to Polymorph.
Is the lack of stated CR because the creatures in question have variable power levels?
Most likely. With such a wide variation in hitpoints, hit bonuses, damage, etc., any printed CR would be unable to capture the actual difficulty of the creature depending on the level and stats of the associated Artificer/card puller (for the avatar)
Doesn't Polymorph tell you exactly what to do if you use it on a creature without a CR? The spell says that you should use the creature's level if it does not have a CR.
The text seemingly implies that each creature should have either a level or a CR, but it doesn't explicitly say that. Nor do the rules.
Now, the question is what happens if the creature has no level listed? Does it have "no levels" or can it be assumed to be "0th level in any particular class"? That is an important and distinct question from the OPs.
I noticed that the wildfire spirit lists n/a for CR, where as avatar of death lists 0 on this website. Is that a new change and oversight or a problem with the supposition of the OP?
An additional question: is having a CR of n/a different from having no CR? If the CR of a creature is n/a can that creature be polymorphed into another creature that has a CR of n/a?
I noticed that the wildfire spirit lists n/a for CR, where as avatar of death lists 0 on this website. Is that a new change and oversight or a problem with the supposition of the OP?
The Avatar of Death on DndBeyond has always had a CR of zero. I've always assumed the intention being that you are not suppose to be able to gain xp from them, as they are supposed to be a punishment from the deck of many things.
That being said, I would rule that if something doesn't specifically say it cant be effected by polymorph, then it can be regardless of the lack of a CR.
If we use the logic 'things that don't have CR's cant be polymorphed nor can they be polymorphed into', then chickens are immune to polymorph because they don't have an created statblock and thusly don't have a CR, and before someone says "They do have a stat block. Its in the Dnd Wiki" Its in the homebrew section of the wiki. If its not published in an official Dnd 5e property/book its homebrew and not RAW. It seems like an oversight and not an intended thing.
Though I do love the idea that all chickens are immune to polymorph because of some innate magical flaw in the structure of the Weave.
I noticed that the wildfire spirit lists n/a for CR, where as avatar of death lists 0 on this website. Is that a new change and oversight or a problem with the supposition of the OP?
The Avatar of Death on DndBeyond has always had a CR of zero. I've always assumed the intention being that you are not suppose to be able to gain xp from them, as they are supposed to be a punishment from the deck of many things.
That being said, I would rule that if something dosnt way it cant be effected by polymorph, then it can be regardless of the lack of a CR.
If we use the logic 'things that don't have CR's cant be polymorphed nor can they be polymorphed into', then chickens are immune to polymorph because they don't have an created statblock and thusly don't have a CR, and before someone says "They do have a stat block. Its in the Dnd Wiki" Its in the homebrew section of the wiki. If its not published in an official Dnd 5e property/book its homebrew and not RAW. It seems like an oversight and not an intended thing.
Though I do love the idea that all chickens are immune to polymorph because of some innate magical flaw in the structure of the Weave.
Meanwhile attacking a chicken summons a swarm of chickens, which has a CR of 30, infinite hitpoints, and a travel speed matching the attacker
I noticed that the wildfire spirit lists n/a for CR, where as avatar of death lists 0 on this website. Is that a new change and oversight or a problem with the supposition of the OP?
The Avatar of Death on DndBeyond has always had a CR of zero. I've always assumed the intention being that you are not suppose to be able to gain xp from them, as they are supposed to be a punishment from the deck of many things.
That being said, I would rule that if something doesn't specifically say it cant be effected by polymorph, then it can be regardless of the lack of a CR.
If we use the logic 'things that don't have CR's cant be polymorphed nor can they be polymorphed into', then chickens are immune to polymorph because they don't have an created statblock and thusly don't have a CR, and before someone says "They do have a stat block. Its in the Dnd Wiki" Its in the homebrew section of the wiki. If its not published in an official Dnd 5e property/book its homebrew and not RAW. It seems like an oversight and not an intended thing.
Though I do love the idea that all chickens are immune to polymorph because of some innate magical flaw in the structure of the Weave.
That brings me to the question that I raised. Apparently now D&DBeyond is technically able to list the CR of a creature as n/a. If that is true, then is it an oversight on D&DBeyond’s part that a creature that has no CR listed within the physical book has a CR of 0 listed on the website? Did they just not go back and fix something that they gave CR 0 to before they had in place the technical solution? Or is there something else going on?
Can you give an example of a non-player created creature that has a CR of N/A on the website?
When i say non-player created, I mean things like the wildfire spirit that wouldn't exist if it wasn't for the players ability, because if it only exists from a player ability and not naturally in the world then there would be nothing to gain from defeating it. No XP or anything like that. I also have a hard time justifying UA stuff because it is still UA and is subject to change anyway.
The point is that placing "Challenge 0" for a creature that doesn't have one was supposed to have been a technical limitation. It clearly isn't anymore because the wildfire spirit has "Challenge n/a". Why has the problem not been addressed?
If that is the only example that exists then its an oversight. An exception, not a rule.
If you are confused about this on a website wide mechanical level then the conversation should be moved into the DndBeyond Feedback or Bugs and Support areas of the thread.
I don't work for WoTC or DDB, so I don't have an answer to the mechanical limitations of the service.
But perhaps I don't understand what point you are trying to make.
The point is that placing "Challenge 0" for a creature that doesn't have one was supposed to have been a technical limitation. It clearly isn't anymore because the wildfire spirit has "Challenge n/a". Why has the problem not been addressed?
As far as I know, the wildfire spirit doesn't actually have an entry in the Monsters section of the site? Its listed as being "Challenge n/a" in the wildfire druid's description; they can format that however they want (and as far as I know, have always been able to).
Compare this to the artificer's homunculus: in the artificer class description, it has no challenge rating, but [Tooltip Not Found] lists its CR as 0.
The point is that placing "Challenge 0" for a creature that doesn't have one was supposed to have been a technical limitation. It clearly isn't anymore because the wildfire spirit has "Challenge n/a". Why has the problem not been addressed?
As far as I know, the wildfire spirit doesn't actually have an entry in the Monsters section of the site? Its listed as being "Challenge n/a" in the wildfire druid's description; they can format that however they want (and as far as I know, have always been able to).
Compare this to the artificer's homunculus: in the artificer class description, it has no challenge rating, but the actual monster entry in the database lists its CR as 0.
That seems to be true, but again, why would one and not the other? UA spells get entries into their areas, why wouldn't creatures introduced by UA?
But then again, D&D beyond often gives non-canonical information to parts of the game. For example, spell tags seem to be completely invented for search functionality, but it seems that you could invent something like that to find creatures who don't have real CRs.
Anyway, it is moot, because the spell says what to do with a creature without a CR. The problem is when a creature doesn't have a level.
I assume that when you have something like an acolyte, the statblock tells you that it has a CR of 1/4, so I guess you must use that rather than its level (since the statement says or level if a creature doesn't have a CR). But the statement "the acolyte is a 1st-level spellcaster" describes the level of that creature. How do you interpret no statement of the level of a creature?
You can polymorph into a creature that is CR 0, but you can't polymorph into a creature without a CR (steel defender, etc).
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Yeah.So you turn the angy adult black dragon into a mouse, then throw it at some bad guys in a small room and have your friend cast dispel magic.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
You can’t polymorph into most of the debated creatures anyway as they aren’t beasts
To quote myself from post #3.
Basically, you are allowing an exploit. If you disagree and WANT to play pure RAW, go ahead. If you want to play what is probably RAI, just assign a damn CR and don't be a PITA.
How do you know what's RAI? IMO, it's RAI to not allow an steel defender be polymorphed. Also, I don't think it's an exploit, and a DM is not a bad DM if they play this rule as written.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
I still think this is an exploit and not a legitimate intent or application of the rules, but after looking, only 3 of the listed creatures are actually valid (the others being UA, so not currently RAW or published). for the others
1)Avatar of Death: This is only summoned by the Skull Card of the Deck of Many Things, and is intended to be a fight to the death, so Polymorph/True Polymorph, whether or not it works, is only delaying the inevitable (and if anyone helps you, they summon their own avatar). Its also the only one with a CR actually listed as "- (0xp)" So I could see it actually not intended to have a CR (and with variable hitpoints and an attack that automatically hits, calculating it would change depending on the PC it was summoned against)
2)Homunculus/Steel Defender: These are creatures created by the Artificer Class, so they likely would not be found alone. The CR for their statblock is just missing, which is most likely due to the fact that the CR of the creature would have to be variable, as its damage, bonus to hit, and hitpoints all change with their associated artificer's level (this is also true of the Avatar of Death, but only for its Hitpoints). Here, I do feel the omission of a CR is an oversight when compared to the rules of Polymorph, as 1) its in a different setting and 2) it was published much much later.
Regardless, and even though I feel that the CR can be calculated or just assigned for these creatures, I could see the need for an errata, as I am almost 100% sure the intent was not to make them immune to Polymorph simply due to the lack of a published CR. Immunity to spells are practically always spelled out either in the spell effect, or in a trait associated with the creature that is immune
It's one thing to play Devil's Advocate to promote critical thinking and quite another to try to employ Murphy's Law to establish likely outcomes. If you don't know what I mean, here you go:
Any creature that doesn't state an immunity to Polymorph(in some direct manner or another), isn't. The Devil's Advocate response = RAW says a creature needs a CR level in order to be a valid Polymorph target.
Murphy's Law, anything that can happen, will. Maybe the lack of a CR is intentional and they specifically wanted the creature in question to be immune to Polymorph.
Nah bro, just...nah.
Is the lack of stated CR because the creatures in question have variable power levels?
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
Most likely. With such a wide variation in hitpoints, hit bonuses, damage, etc., any printed CR would be unable to capture the actual difficulty of the creature depending on the level and stats of the associated Artificer/card puller (for the avatar)
Doesn't Polymorph tell you exactly what to do if you use it on a creature without a CR? The spell says that you should use the creature's level if it does not have a CR.
The text seemingly implies that each creature should have either a level or a CR, but it doesn't explicitly say that. Nor do the rules.
Now, the question is what happens if the creature has no level listed? Does it have "no levels" or can it be assumed to be "0th level in any particular class"? That is an important and distinct question from the OPs.
I noticed that the wildfire spirit lists n/a for CR, where as avatar of death lists 0 on this website. Is that a new change and oversight or a problem with the supposition of the OP?
An additional question: is having a CR of n/a different from having no CR? If the CR of a creature is n/a can that creature be polymorphed into another creature that has a CR of n/a?
The Avatar of Death on DndBeyond has always had a CR of zero. I've always assumed the intention being that you are not suppose to be able to gain xp from them, as they are supposed to be a punishment from the deck of many things.
That being said, I would rule that if something doesn't specifically say it cant be effected by polymorph, then it can be regardless of the lack of a CR.
If we use the logic 'things that don't have CR's cant be polymorphed nor can they be polymorphed into', then chickens are immune to polymorph because they don't have an created statblock and thusly don't have a CR, and before someone says "They do have a stat block. Its in the Dnd Wiki" Its in the homebrew section of the wiki. If its not published in an official Dnd 5e property/book its homebrew and not RAW. It seems like an oversight and not an intended thing.
Though I do love the idea that all chickens are immune to polymorph because of some innate magical flaw in the structure of the Weave.
Buyers Guide for D&D Beyond - Hardcover Books, D&D Beyond and You - How/What is Toggled Content?
Everything you need to know about Homebrew - Homebrew FAQ - Digital Book on D&D Beyond Vs Physical Books
Can't find the content you are supposed to have access to? Read this FAQ.
"Play the game however you want to play the game. After all, your fun doesn't threaten my fun."
Meanwhile attacking a chicken summons a swarm of chickens, which has a CR of 30, infinite hitpoints, and a travel speed matching the attacker
That brings me to the question that I raised. Apparently now D&DBeyond is technically able to list the CR of a creature as n/a. If that is true, then is it an oversight on D&DBeyond’s part that a creature that has no CR listed within the physical book has a CR of 0 listed on the website? Did they just not go back and fix something that they gave CR 0 to before they had in place the technical solution? Or is there something else going on?
Can you give an example of a non-player created creature that has a CR of N/A on the website?
When i say non-player created, I mean things like the wildfire spirit that wouldn't exist if it wasn't for the players ability, because if it only exists from a player ability and not naturally in the world then there would be nothing to gain from defeating it. No XP or anything like that. I also have a hard time justifying UA stuff because it is still UA and is subject to change anyway.
Buyers Guide for D&D Beyond - Hardcover Books, D&D Beyond and You - How/What is Toggled Content?
Everything you need to know about Homebrew - Homebrew FAQ - Digital Book on D&D Beyond Vs Physical Books
Can't find the content you are supposed to have access to? Read this FAQ.
"Play the game however you want to play the game. After all, your fun doesn't threaten my fun."
I don't know if any, and that isn't the point.
The point is that placing "Challenge 0" for a creature that doesn't have one was supposed to have been a technical limitation. It clearly isn't anymore because the wildfire spirit has "Challenge n/a". Why has the problem not been addressed?
If that is the only example that exists then its an oversight. An exception, not a rule.
If you are confused about this on a website wide mechanical level then the conversation should be moved into the DndBeyond Feedback or Bugs and Support areas of the thread.
I don't work for WoTC or DDB, so I don't have an answer to the mechanical limitations of the service.
But perhaps I don't understand what point you are trying to make.
Buyers Guide for D&D Beyond - Hardcover Books, D&D Beyond and You - How/What is Toggled Content?
Everything you need to know about Homebrew - Homebrew FAQ - Digital Book on D&D Beyond Vs Physical Books
Can't find the content you are supposed to have access to? Read this FAQ.
"Play the game however you want to play the game. After all, your fun doesn't threaten my fun."
As far as I know, the wildfire spirit doesn't actually have an entry in the Monsters section of the site? Its listed as being "Challenge n/a" in the wildfire druid's description; they can format that however they want (and as far as I know, have always been able to).
Compare this to the artificer's homunculus: in the artificer class description, it has no challenge rating, but [Tooltip Not Found] lists its CR as 0.
That seems to be true, but again, why would one and not the other? UA spells get entries into their areas, why wouldn't creatures introduced by UA?
But then again, D&D beyond often gives non-canonical information to parts of the game. For example, spell tags seem to be completely invented for search functionality, but it seems that you could invent something like that to find creatures who don't have real CRs.
Anyway, it is moot, because the spell says what to do with a creature without a CR. The problem is when a creature doesn't have a level.
I assume that when you have something like an acolyte, the statblock tells you that it has a CR of 1/4, so I guess you must use that rather than its level (since the statement says or level if a creature doesn't have a CR). But the statement "the acolyte is a 1st-level spellcaster" describes the level of that creature. How do you interpret no statement of the level of a creature?