I am sure many know what I am going to ask and it is ridiculous but I have to. If a Tortle has a natural 17 AC and a Monk has a 10 plus Dex modifier plus wis modifier, shouldn't a monk Tortle have 17 base plus the wisdom and Dex modifier? It could be argued that Dex wouldn't apply because Dex does not affect a Tortle AC but wisdom could...
Unarmored Defense and Natural Armor are both AC calculations, and you can't have more than one AC calculation active at a time. If you want a more detailed response, look for threads from around the time the Tortle Package came out.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Your AC is set by armor, race, or class by a calculation. You use the highest. The only things that modifies that AC are static bonuses that add on top, such as from cover or magic items.
No, the Tortle AC bonus does not stack with any other armor calculation. A Tortle monk's armor is either 17 or 10+Wis+Dex, whichever is higher.
It is with the unarmored Defense Feat from the Monk (Same with Barbarian): "AC equals..."
Take a look at Bladesong from the Bladesinging Subclass from the Wizard. There you can See how a Bonus on AC looks Like. So If your DM allowed a Tortle Bladesinging Wizard (just Imagine...) it should get its Int as a Bonus on top of its Base AC when using Bladesong.
The issue I have with this is that in the tortle package it say their base ac is 17. When did base ac become a calculation?
AC is a variable. If you have no armor, no Unarmored Defense, no Natural Armor, and no bonuses, your AC = 10 + your Dexterity modifier. That equals sign means that it's an equation, as do the word equals and the phrase is equal to.
If you are a tortle, your AC = 17.
If you are a monk and you aren't wearing armor or using a shield, your AC = 10 + your Dexterity modifier + your Wisdom modifier.
If you are under the effects of a mage armor spell, your AC = 13 + your Dexterity modifier.
Things like shields, the shield spell, bracers of defense, and a Bladesinger's Bladesong give a bonus to AC. Bonuses are added to whichever equation you're using.
If you are wearing chain mail and using a shield, your AC = 16 + 2.
If you are wearing studded leather, you have the Dual Wielder feat, and you are wielding two weapons, your AC = 12 + your Dexterity modifier + 1.
If you are an unarmored Draconic Bloodline sorcerer under the effects of the haste spell and you cast shield, your AC = 13 + your Dexterity modifier + 2 + 5.
As has been said many times before, AC bonuses stack, but AC equations (more commonly known as AC calculations) do not.
Matthias I think you missed the question or didn't understand what the question was. It wasn't if AC was a calculation in total but rather when did BASE ac become a calculation?
Although the Tortle package uses the word "base AC", in the rules there is no definition of base AC. The Natural Armor is a AC calculation as the others (unarmored defense, wearing armor...).
I think the more philosophical question would be why the Wisdom Modifier wouldn't be added if it comes from the monks natural training and or connection with his internal energies. I absolutely understand it from a game design aspect (we don't want folks dipping monk just to add their wis mod, and we don't want Tortle Monks to be OP by adding wis mod on top of AC 17), but if a Tortle spends his time training his mind and body (his body which has that hard carapace) why would he not learn to also use his internal energies to sense danger and avoid it.
Although the Tortle package uses the word "base AC", in the rules there is no definition of base AC. The Natural Armor is a AC calculation as the others (unarmored defense, wearing armor...).
That's not entirely correct. The phrase "base AC" isn't called out as clearly as it could be by the rules, but it is defined by them, and not too many steps removed from the first time the game rules present the concept of armor class to the reader.
Specifically, the text on armor class in the step-by-step character creation section tells you how to figure out your AC without armor or shield, and mentions that if multiple sources tell you a different way to figure out your AC that you pick the one to use. It also tells you to see the equipment section for how to figure out your AC with armor and/or shield, and under the armor & shields heading defines base AC, saying "The armor (and shield) you wear determines your base Armor Class."
Matthias I think you missed the question or didn't understand what the question was. It wasn't if AC was a calculation in total but rather when did BASE ac become a calculation?
The answer to this question is also covered by the material in the links I provided above. It's not as explicit as it could be written, but it is clear that "base AC" and "way you figure out what your AC is" are being used as interchangeable phrases.
This thread began with my interest in the best race with the best class. Naturally, it depends on a players personal taste but there seem to be some balance issues with certain races and classes. I am amazed more people do not use Yuan-ti Pure blood as a race. Although you would want to max out a classes main abilities, I think of the Yuan-ti as being too good with it's magic resistance. That is a very powerful advantage to have in a race. A Tortle has few worth having. Why would you waste an action to use Shell Defense? So you are harder to hit, but eventually are going to die while you sit in your shell doing nothing...so I asked my original question as it is the one reason taking a Tortle would be worth it. Making a Monk Tortle if the AC base would be 17 + Dex modifier would make it cool. Or if the shell defense could be a reaction. That would be cool. Also the lifespan of a Tortle is strange. I assume too many Tortles used shell defense and sat inside their shell and were killed by their inaction. Making their shell their tomb...(My whole reply here is tongue in cheek, for the most part.)
...on a serious note. Revisiting the Tortle traits. According to the rules stated you could make a Tortle with a very low dexterity and by definition of the stated rule a negative would not change the AC. "AC of 17 (your Dexterity modifier doesn’t affect this number)." So it would be a good choice if you rolled a good set of abilities but had one very low number like a 5. Sure you would be terrible at ability checks but a Tortle with a 20 Dex would be no better at avoiding getting hit then a Tortle with a 1 Dexterity. That is just plain dumb...
...on a serious note. Revisiting the Tortle traits. According to the rules stated you could make a Tortle with a very low dexterity and by definition of the stated rule a negative would not change the AC. "AC of 17 (your Dexterity modifier doesn’t affect this number)." So it would be a good choice if you rolled a good set of abilities but had one very low number like a 5. Sure you would be terrible at ability checks but a Tortle with a 20 Dex would be no better at avoiding getting hit then a Tortle with a 1 Dexterity. That is just plain dumb...
A guy in plate armor with 20 Dex is no better at not getting hit than a guy in plate armor with 1 Dex. It's a game balance thing.
you get it dog in a game with my DM i would debate that too and is why i was on this thread, like even saying that the highest ac you could get is 20 with the 17 base ac and add the wisdom mod for this lets say we have 20 wis, which is possible in the rules if you role for stats just not very likely. and instead of dumping + 5 wis mod on the tortles making 22 ac which would be the highest at that point. You could cap it at 20 for balancing and fairness and making room for a interesting tortle build for the sake of fun, and to all dm's out there for any other race monk, if you role your dice and get lucky this goes for barbarian too your base ac at level 1 could be 20 max which is fair by rule standards especially if in character creation you do the optional rule of adding/subtracting from the roles you rolled for example guy roles lets say 12 15 16 10 14 11 14 you can add/subtract and get a very op character in some categories in this example wisdom and strength (for tortle monk) and be really bad in others cause of the subtractions which for me on a monk tortle i would choose Int and Char which after the dust had settled your stats would be 20 str 20 wis 8 int 8 char 15 dex and 14 con which will open up roleplay options by the flux in stats. The question should never be can this be viable it should be how can i make it viable this is a game where you can homebrew everything get creative goddammit. Came to the realization that a barbarian with 20 dex and 20 con can have 20 ac if they roll really well on stats at level one plus they can use a shield which can raise their ac by 2 which would be 22 so i would like to redact my previous statement it should be completely fine for a tortle who has trained his whole life as a monk to have adapted to his natural weight and manueverability with his 17 ac shell (probably 100-200 ilbs shell) and the wisdom modifier ( which in the rules measure perceptiveness, cunning and basic survival skills) to bring his ac to 22 it does specifically say that to get the ac it does not get increased by dex but says absolutely nothing about wisdom my conclusion is if i run a game and someone wants to play a tortle monk then i will absolutely allow it as well as the wisdom add on with unarmored defense because (and my reasoning) a barbarian with the same skill with high stats put in the right place and a shield which it can use at lvl 1 and monks can't bringing it's ac also to 22. i would not let my players abuse tortles for this boon but i defanitley would allow it with the mind that any creature who trains their life in something so straining as well as having natural armor or abilities that benefit or can be benifitted more by training would be completely logical. for example as well a half elf high elf variant can get a cantrip that can be extremely helpful for certain non magic (usually) classes like barbarian, fighter etc which can be a extreme benefit. and for those that do not agree with my ruling and opinions here know that i play kobolds in my games cause they my fave, and i am currently playing a kobold monk in my game with 20 ac as a monk and im playing a aaokocran barbarian who has 22 ac as well as they can fly im all over the place and honestly i find aaokocrans are way more op a race if they are a barbarian with a shield who can also fly which he is than a tortle monk with the same ac that is stuck on the ground cause at least he can get attack by melee on the ground.and as a final note if you just can not perceive this as a logical and honest decision than just dont use beast races in your campaign no dragonborn, kobolds tortle aaokocran centaur etc and remove so much choice and possible fun from your players. Note: im getting aggresive writing this cause i had a really bad dm one time and im reminded just how close minded he was to the rules making everybody who played the game have a terrible time but unfortunately he was all i got to play with and many other people who had other options slowly left as the weeeks went on till i was the only original player left and the only reason i stayed was cause i love DND.
To add to this Dungeons and Dragons has never always been following the rules look at critical role and how matt mercer homebrews look at itmejp's roleplay and how Adam homebrews look at team four star and takahata 101 and how they homebrew for their games all bring something interesting new and goes against the rules if you want something in your game talk with your players or dm and see how you can make it work stop being so stone headed in thought guys try to open the box in your mind i have faith in you all this should never have been a debate in the first place you can do it. Rant over i love all you beautiful minds
you get it dog in a game with my DM i would debate that too and is why i was on this thread, like even saying that the highest ac you could get is 20 with the 17 base ac and add the wisdom mod for this lets say we have 20 wis, which is possible in the rules if you role for stats just not very likely. and instead of dumping + 5 wis mod on the tortles making 22 ac which would be the highest at that point. You could cap it at 20 for balancing and fairness and making room for a interesting tortle build for the sake of fun, and to all dm's out there for any other race monk, if you role your dice and get lucky this goes for barbarian too your base ac at level 1 could be 20 max which is fair by rule standards especially if in character creation you do the optional rule of adding/subtracting from the roles you rolled for example guy roles lets say 12 15 16 10 14 11 14 you can add/subtract and get a very op character in some categories in this example wisdom and strength (for tortle monk) and be really bad in others cause of the subtractions which for me on a monk tortle i would choose Int and Char which after the dust had settled your stats would be 20 str 20 wis 8 int 8 char 15 dex and 14 con which will open up roleplay options by the flux in stats. The question should never be can this be viable it should be how can i make it viable this is a game where you can homebrew everything get creative goddammit. Came to the realization that a barbarian with 20 dex and 20 con can have 20 ac if they roll really well on stats at level one plus they can use a shield which can raise their ac by 2 which would be 22 so i would like to redact my previous statement it should be completely fine for a tortle who has trained his whole life as a monk to have adapted to his natural weight and manueverability with his 17 ac shell (probably 100-200 ilbs shell) and the wisdom modifier ( which in the rules measure perceptiveness, cunning and basic survival skills) to bring his ac to 22 it does specifically say that to get the ac it does not get increased by dex but says absolutely nothing about wisdom my conclusion is if i run a game and someone wants to play a tortle monk then i will absolutely allow it as well as the wisdom add on with unarmored defense because (and my reasoning) a barbarian with the same skill with high stats put in the right place and a shield which it can use at lvl 1 and monks can't bringing it's ac also to 22. i would not let my players abuse tortles for this boon but i defanitley would allow it with the mind that any creature who trains their life in something so straining as well as having natural armor or abilities that benefit or can be benifitted more by training would be completely logical. for example as well a half elf high elf variant can get a cantrip that can be extremely helpful for certain non magic (usually) classes like barbarian, fighter etc which can be a extreme benefit. and for those that do not agree with my ruling and opinions here know that i play kobolds in my games cause they my fave, and i am currently playing a kobold monk in my game with 20 ac as a monk and im playing a aaokocran barbarian who has 22 ac as well as they can fly im all over the place and honestly i find aaokocrans are way more op a race if they are a barbarian with a shield who can also fly which he is than a tortle monk with the same ac that is stuck on the ground cause at least he can get attack by melee on the ground.and as a final note if you just can not perceive this as a logical and honest decision than just dont use beast races in your campaign no dragonborn, kobolds tortle aaokocran centaur etc and remove so much choice and possible fun from your players. Note: im getting aggresive writing this cause i had a really bad dm one time and im reminded just how close minded he was to the rules making everybody who played the game have a terrible time but unfortunately he was all i got to play with and many other people who had other options slowly left as the weeeks went on till i was the only original player left and the only reason i stayed was cause i love DND.
To add to this Dungeons and Dragons has never always been following the rules look at critical role and how matt mercer homebrews look at itmejp's roleplay and how Adam homebrews look at team four star and takahata 101 and how they homebrew for their games all bring something interesting new and goes against the rules if you want something in your game talk with your players or dm and see how you can make it work stop being so stone headed in thought guys try to open the box in your mind i have faith in you all this should never have been a debate in the first place you can do it. Rant over i love all you beautiful minds
From what I've heard from others (I still haven't had a chance to play Tortle myself yet in a game), the only real use for Shell Defense is for casters. Cast a spell that deals damage and is controlled through your bonus action (like Bigby's Hand or Animate Objects), then just turtle up and tank most damage while your spell takes care of things. Other than that it's really only useful if you're surrounded and you need to give yourself some time for your allies to get to you and help.
I think the more philosophical question would be why the Wisdom Modifier wouldn't be added if it comes from the monks natural training and or connection with his internal energies. I absolutely understand it from a game design aspect (we don't want folks dipping monk just to add their wis mod, and we don't want Tortle Monks to be OP by adding wis mod on top of AC 17), but if a Tortle spends his time training his mind and body (his body which has that hard carapace) why would he not learn to also use his internal energies to sense danger and avoid it.
Unarmored Defense doesn't simply add your Wisdom modifier to your base AC. For Monks it specifies that your AC is equal to 10 + Dex mod + Wis mod. So a Tortle monk would need Dex and Wis modifiers that added up to at least 8 before Unarmored Defense became better than their Tortle natural armor.
I am sure many know what I am going to ask and it is ridiculous but I have to. If a Tortle has a natural 17 AC and a Monk has a 10 plus Dex modifier plus wis modifier, shouldn't a monk Tortle have 17 base plus the wisdom and Dex modifier? It could be argued that Dex wouldn't apply because Dex does not affect a Tortle AC but wisdom could...
Unarmored Defense for both the Monk and Barbarian explicitly use 10 as the starting point. They don't say "your base AC + Dex + whatever". They say "10 + Dex mod + Wis mod" or "10 + Dex mod + Con mod". The racial rule and the class rule do not stack.
lol. Thank you for answering a question I asked almost 2 years ago...back when I had only about 30 hours of 5e under my belt. I look back on my question and laugh at how dumb it was. But many of my recent questions are probably just as dumb as 2 years ago...love the help that is given! This is my second most visited website because of the members and effort of DnD Beyond staff!
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I am sure many know what I am going to ask and it is ridiculous but I have to. If a Tortle has a natural 17 AC and a Monk has a 10 plus Dex modifier plus wis modifier, shouldn't a monk Tortle have 17 base plus the wisdom and Dex modifier? It could be argued that Dex wouldn't apply because Dex does not affect a Tortle AC but wisdom could...
Unarmored Defense and Natural Armor are both AC calculations, and you can't have more than one AC calculation active at a time. If you want a more detailed response, look for threads from around the time the Tortle Package came out.
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Tooltips (Help/aid)
Your AC is set by armor, race, or class by a calculation. You use the highest. The only things that modifies that AC are static bonuses that add on top, such as from cover or magic items.
No, the Tortle AC bonus does not stack with any other armor calculation. A Tortle monk's armor is either 17 or 10+Wis+Dex, whichever is higher.
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in awhile.
The issue I have with this is that in the tortle package it say their base ac is 17. When did base ac become a calculation?
It is with the unarmored Defense Feat from the Monk (Same with Barbarian): "AC equals..."
Take a look at Bladesong from the Bladesinging Subclass from the Wizard. There you can See how a Bonus on AC looks Like. So If your DM allowed a Tortle Bladesinging Wizard (just Imagine...) it should get its Int as a Bonus on top of its Base AC when using Bladesong.
Things like shields, the shield spell, bracers of defense, and a Bladesinger's Bladesong give a bonus to AC. Bonuses are added to whichever equation you're using.
As has been said many times before, AC bonuses stack, but AC equations (more commonly known as AC calculations) do not.
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Tooltips (Help/aid)
Matthias I think you missed the question or didn't understand what the question was. It wasn't if AC was a calculation in total but rather when did BASE ac become a calculation?
Although the Tortle package uses the word "base AC", in the rules there is no definition of base AC. The Natural Armor is a AC calculation as the others (unarmored defense, wearing armor...).
I think the more philosophical question would be why the Wisdom Modifier wouldn't be added if it comes from the monks natural training and or connection with his internal energies. I absolutely understand it from a game design aspect (we don't want folks dipping monk just to add their wis mod, and we don't want Tortle Monks to be OP by adding wis mod on top of AC 17), but if a Tortle spends his time training his mind and body (his body which has that hard carapace) why would he not learn to also use his internal energies to sense danger and avoid it.
This thread began with my interest in the best race with the best class. Naturally, it depends on a players personal taste but there seem to be some balance issues with certain races and classes. I am amazed more people do not use Yuan-ti Pure blood as a race. Although you would want to max out a classes main abilities, I think of the Yuan-ti as being too good with it's magic resistance. That is a very powerful advantage to have in a race. A Tortle has few worth having. Why would you waste an action to use Shell Defense? So you are harder to hit, but eventually are going to die while you sit in your shell doing nothing...so I asked my original question as it is the one reason taking a Tortle would be worth it. Making a Monk Tortle if the AC base would be 17 + Dex modifier would make it cool. Or if the shell defense could be a reaction. That would be cool. Also the lifespan of a Tortle is strange. I assume too many Tortles used shell defense and sat inside their shell and were killed by their inaction. Making their shell their tomb...(My whole reply here is tongue in cheek, for the most part.)
...on a serious note. Revisiting the Tortle traits. According to the rules stated you could make a Tortle with a very low dexterity and by definition of the stated rule a negative would not change the AC. "AC of 17 (your Dexterity modifier doesn’t affect this number)." So it would be a good choice if you rolled a good set of abilities but had one very low number like a 5. Sure you would be terrible at ability checks but a Tortle with a 20 Dex would be no better at avoiding getting hit then a Tortle with a 1 Dexterity. That is just plain dumb...
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Tooltips (Help/aid)
you get it dog in a game with my DM i would debate that too and is why i was on this thread, like even saying that the highest ac you could get is 20 with the 17 base ac and add the wisdom mod for this lets say we have 20 wis, which is possible in the rules if you role for stats just not very likely. and instead of dumping + 5 wis mod on the tortles making 22 ac which would be the highest at that point. You could cap it at 20 for balancing and fairness and making room for a interesting tortle build for the sake of fun, and to all dm's out there for any other race monk, if you role your dice and get lucky this goes for barbarian too your base ac at level 1 could be 20 max which is fair by rule standards especially if in character creation you do the optional rule of adding/subtracting from the roles you rolled for example guy roles lets say 12 15 16 10 14 11 14 you can add/subtract and get a very op character in some categories in this example wisdom and strength (for tortle monk) and be really bad in others cause of the subtractions which for me on a monk tortle i would choose Int and Char which after the dust had settled your stats would be 20 str 20 wis 8 int 8 char 15 dex and 14 con which will open up roleplay options by the flux in stats. The question should never be can this be viable it should be how can i make it viable this is a game where you can homebrew everything get creative goddammit. Came to the realization that a barbarian with 20 dex and 20 con can have 20 ac if they roll really well on stats at level one plus they can use a shield which can raise their ac by 2 which would be 22 so i would like to redact my previous statement it should be completely fine for a tortle who has trained his whole life as a monk to have adapted to his natural weight and manueverability with his 17 ac shell (probably 100-200 ilbs shell) and the wisdom modifier ( which in the rules measure perceptiveness, cunning and basic survival skills) to bring his ac to 22 it does specifically say that to get the ac it does not get increased by dex but says absolutely nothing about wisdom my conclusion is if i run a game and someone wants to play a tortle monk then i will absolutely allow it as well as the wisdom add on with unarmored defense because (and my reasoning) a barbarian with the same skill with high stats put in the right place and a shield which it can use at lvl 1 and monks can't bringing it's ac also to 22. i would not let my players abuse tortles for this boon but i defanitley would allow it with the mind that any creature who trains their life in something so straining as well as having natural armor or abilities that benefit or can be benifitted more by training would be completely logical. for example as well a half elf high elf variant can get a cantrip that can be extremely helpful for certain non magic (usually) classes like barbarian, fighter etc which can be a extreme benefit. and for those that do not agree with my ruling and opinions here know that i play kobolds in my games cause they my fave, and i am currently playing a kobold monk in my game with 20 ac as a monk and im playing a aaokocran barbarian who has 22 ac as well as they can fly im all over the place and honestly i find aaokocrans are way more op a race if they are a barbarian with a shield who can also fly which he is than a tortle monk with the same ac that is stuck on the ground cause at least he can get attack by melee on the ground.and as a final note if you just can not perceive this as a logical and honest decision than just dont use beast races in your campaign no dragonborn, kobolds tortle aaokocran centaur etc and remove so much choice and possible fun from your players. Note: im getting aggresive writing this cause i had a really bad dm one time and im reminded just how close minded he was to the rules making everybody who played the game have a terrible time but unfortunately he was all i got to play with and many other people who had other options slowly left as the weeeks went on till i was the only original player left and the only reason i stayed was cause i love DND.
To add to this Dungeons and Dragons has never always been following the rules look at critical role and how matt mercer homebrews look at itmejp's roleplay and how Adam homebrews look at team four star and takahata 101 and how they homebrew for their games all bring something interesting new and goes against the rules if you want something in your game talk with your players or dm and see how you can make it work stop being so stone headed in thought guys try to open the box in your mind i have faith in you all this should never have been a debate in the first place you can do it. Rant over i love all you beautiful minds
Yes.
From what I've heard from others (I still haven't had a chance to play Tortle myself yet in a game), the only real use for Shell Defense is for casters. Cast a spell that deals damage and is controlled through your bonus action (like Bigby's Hand or Animate Objects), then just turtle up and tank most damage while your spell takes care of things. Other than that it's really only useful if you're surrounded and you need to give yourself some time for your allies to get to you and help.
Watch Crits for Breakfast, an adults-only RP-Heavy Roll20 Livestream at twitch.tv/afterdisbooty
And now you too can play with the amazing art and assets we use in Roll20 for our campaign at Hazel's Emporium
Unarmored Defense doesn't simply add your Wisdom modifier to your base AC. For Monks it specifies that your AC is equal to 10 + Dex mod + Wis mod. So a Tortle monk would need Dex and Wis modifiers that added up to at least 8 before Unarmored Defense became better than their Tortle natural armor.
Unarmored Defense for both the Monk and Barbarian explicitly use 10 as the starting point. They don't say "your base AC + Dex + whatever". They say "10 + Dex mod + Wis mod" or "10 + Dex mod + Con mod". The racial rule and the class rule do not stack.
lol. Thank you for answering a question I asked almost 2 years ago...back when I had only about 30 hours of 5e under my belt. I look back on my question and laugh at how dumb it was. But many of my recent questions are probably just as dumb as 2 years ago...love the help that is given! This is my second most visited website because of the members and effort of DnD Beyond staff!